Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[011100110110000101101101]

My ONLY issue with the rework is the health nerf.

Seriously, DE, why? What purpose did that serve, her health was fine.

The nerf makes no sense.

[Creamed]

Has DE given any feedback on any this?

[worminthewood]

Good work, DE!

SN: still keeping my hopes up for a Frost(y) Premium / Deluxe skin

[akira_him]

Has DE given any feedback on any this?

only hot topic

[Punchedface]

The 1, 2, and 3 is really fun to play with, but I'm disappointed that Miasma gets reworked from a nuke into a nuke with a slight interaction with other skills.

[BansheePrime]

My ONLY issue with the rework is the health nerf.

Seriously, DE, why? What purpose did that serve, her health was fine.

The nerf makes no sense.

Thank you for using "nerf" where a nerf actualy exists, that is all.

[DSMatticus]

Yea when the health is returned to normal double the dmg you dealt will be taken away from the original health BUT if you kill it before the proc wears off who gives a crap you still took half their health away in 1 hit thus having half health to deal with.

If you kill it before the procs wears off, it will take you exactly half as long as if you had never proc'd the enemy at all. Exactly like it would have if you dealt +100% damage. It is identical in. All. Circumstances.

 

Other than enemies with shields, because that slipped my mind and other people pointed out; it does nothing to shields, so it's worse there.

[fatpig84]

As i wote in the post you quoted.

 

"Sure for this test i had 100% range but my spore chains where broken over and over just by the fact that enemies did not want to play ball and remained spread out enough that it only affected  those catch in the 16 meter radius."

 

I have made several runs with 145% range as well as 190% range.

 

Spore greatly benefit from range this was a test to see how a base range worked against more spread out enemies.

 

As such the result was that it didnt work  as well as i had hoped.

 

base is power range 60 meters 16 meters spread

 

145% range is a great boost at 87 power range and 23.2 meters spread range or 27 meter further casting distance and 7 meters further spread range.

 

190% range lowers your damage but its 114 power range and 30.4 meters spread range or 54 meters better casting range and 14.4 meters better spread range.

 

For now the build i actually would play with her would be 145% range.  I find that good enough.

 

 

 

I used 235% range and 145% range.

For certain maps 235% is complete lulz but that means I lose out on my Rejuv Molt.

But that works as long I got a Trinity or Broberon somewhere.

 

145% works better for survivals or close combat and gimmes back my Rejuv Molt.

But ultimately she is only press 1 and 2. Which is the SAME as old Rejuv Molt setup, just somewhat better.

[FLSH_BNG]

The 1, 2, and 3 is really fun to play with, but I'm disappointed that Miasma gets reworked from a nuke into a nuke with a slight interaction with other skills.

 

You're disappointed that her nuke now has the added capacity to interact with her other abilities?

[ThePredicament]

Everyone sees this whole rework as one thing but it's a multiparted package that has both ups and downs, especially at the beginning. If we REALLY really think about it, what exactly makes 1 and 3 fun? Uninterrupting casting, that's it. Take that away from the current build and it's back to square one but even worse since they are all reliant on each other. Does it bring back how absolutely awesome Venom was before? No but it's a start.

 

Was it really necessary to block a certain build and would that build negatively affect positive builds now? No, it would have just given OPTIONS for everyone, nukers and funners alike or for people like me, a Slot A and a Slot B, just like Loki with his infinite Invisibility with crap range and then his max range Disarm build with mediocre duration. There are much worse offenders for nuking screens, hell, even Ignis right now mopes up whole tiles faster than any frame, nuker or not. They could have easily added all the new bells and whistles to 1,2,3 without even touching 4's dot mechanic.

 

Was it necessary to decrease a stat (HP) that scales better with a mod (Vitality) and increase a stat (armor) that scales poorly with another (Steel Fiber)? For a "melee focused" frame, I absolutely don't see a reason why. It was an arbitrary move, even if the reason was due to "everyone using molt aug".

[Skirvy]

If they're going to insist that ability synergy and setup is the only proper way for Saryn to work (beacuse that's how Excal's murdereverything ult works, right?) we should at LEAST get a combo thing, like Atlas' punch and Valkyr's Rip Line, but for all abilities.

So using Maisma straight costs the normal energy, but using Molt then Spore reduces the cost to cast spore by 25%, then casting Maisma after those two reduces cost by 50%, capping at 75% if people use four or more abilites (meaning you can do some spore spam if you want to play her as a status support caster instead of dps).

Edited November 8, 2015 by Skirvy

[achromos]

The only things that Saryn needs:

 

1.) Slight reduction in Energy cost for her abilities.  If we ARE to utilize the abilities in combination to be effective I'd prefer not to zero out entirely.

 

2.) Slight reduction in casting time/animation

 

3.) More Armor/Health or make it so that her Regenerative Molt is built into her and in addition to the stats that Molt has currently, give it 50% of Saryn's Max Health/Shield Armor Value, it let's us free up a bit more space for more survive-ability OR damage and makes it so that Molt doesn't melt in two seconds before you can utilize it.

 

4.) More survivability, make Miasma even more alluring without overpowering it.  Add utility, the enemies are going to be getting 'down with the sickness' so make them sickly right?

 

In addition to what Miasma does currently:

 

For 9 Seconds (effected by Positive and Negative Power Duration) Reduce an enemy's Armor by up-to-10% max on a enemy that has neither Toxic or Viral.  However, add another 20% if a enemy has Toxic, and another 20% armor reduction on enemy's that are under the Viral effect for a Max total of 50% Armor Reduction.  (This effect does NOT-Stack with Frosts Avalanche)

 

For 9 seconds (effected by Positive and Negative Power Duration) Reduce a enemy's Damage output by 10%, and Speed by 15%

Edited November 8, 2015 by achromos

[akira_him]

I'm not being sarcastic. Thank you DE. For me, Saryn was extremely boring to play as, and extremely annoying to have someone else play as. 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 that's all she was. Now she has 4 abilities instead of 1.5. Thanks. The Warframe team is 3/3 in reworks.

Now she still only have 1.5 abilities, namely spore and molt

[GideonG]

Spore with range is fun (lulz on low-level with 245%), but the usefulness really falls off in later waves, especially once Molt becomes squish bait, melee becomes dangerous, and Miasma damage becomes pitiful. The Viral proc (-50% max HP) is really nice on enemies, but other frames are better/easier at damage-support than Saryn, while offering more CC or survivability options (Banshee, Nova, Mirage). Other frames aren't also locked into specific weapon/elemental load outs in order to take advantage of their skills.

 

I can definitely say that I've not found that Spores scale "infinitely" as some people have claimed. Sometimes I can press it once and it seems to populate the map for a while, but the damage doesn't scale "infinitely", only the chain.

[Judgebanks]

Question, if Miasma worked the same way that it did before, but the other abilities remain the same, and they add back what was taken from Saryn's health pool, would everyone still be happy?

 

Because removing Miasmas burst ability did what exactly? Remove Saryn from the meta Xini/Viver/Draco/*Insert Future Farming Spot Here*?

 

Removing Miasma was a band-aid on a symptom at best. This is what is most distressing, is that this has been happening for years now, with no design epiphany in sight. Scott continues to hand out band-aid balance design, rotating the meta ever so slightly, and at the end of the day nothing changes.

 

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is grinding, and grinding efficiently.

[RiouHotaru]

A thesis:

-you can´t mod her to use Rage/Molt Augment + a build that "works" in lategame due to how much damage enemies deal plus 2.), 3.)

 

I do it.  I've BEEN doing it.  Hell, I ran a raid today using such a build.  It's honestly not nearly this impossible task as people seem to act like it is.  I've run T3 and T4 content, and even a RAID using a build.  It doesn't HAVE to be a min-max build.

 

I will concede that you probably need Life Strike and/or Regenerative Molt, but that is mostly true for any build these days, as there's very few forms of reliable life recovery outside of a cake.  So her HP could use a little bump.

[ThePredicament]

Fun fact: Raid is not really a good measure of frame survival testing.

[GideonG]

After playing with Saryn more, Spore is definitely the most useful late-game skill, IMO, and only because it can proc Viral debuff across large areas very easily; however, many other frames offer similar utility through buffing allies, while still maintaining more survivability or additional utility. Molt and Lash fall off fairly quickly, and Miasma costs too much to spam in late-game (for damage or CC). Her survivability is kind of trash since Molt doesn't scale very well (dies very quickly), her lack of CC (other than slight stun/stagger from Miasma, which is too costly), and reliance on Toxic Lash to be within melee range.

 

I love the changes to Spore, but wish that either:

 

A) Miasma provided some sort of additional debuff/utility effect (ie corrosive proc).

 

or

 

B) Molt scaled better or provided some sort of stun/blind once it is destroyed.

 

Too many other frames offer more damage-support while bringing more CC/survivability and less reliance on energy/combos (OR weapon loadouts) to reach their potential. Banshee and Nova come to mind in particular, along with Rhino and Mirage to a lesser extent.

 

Saryn needs more CC or survivability built into her 2 and 4, IMO.

Edited November 8, 2015 by GideonG

[RealPandemonium]

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is grinding, and grinding efficiently.

This.  We need more engaging gameplay that is possible to lose at, in exchange for more forgiving drop tables.  Factory farming needs to go.

[Inarticulate]

Question, if Miasma worked the same way that it did before, but the other abilities remain the same, and they add back what was taken from Saryn's health pool, would everyone still be happy?

 

Because removing Miasmas burst ability did what exactly? Remove Saryn from the meta Xini/Viver/Draco/*Insert Future Farming Spot Here*?

 

Removing Miasma was a band-aid on a symptom at best. This is what is most distressing, is that this has been happening for years now, with no design epiphany in sight. Scott continues to hand out band-aid balance design, rotating the meta ever so slightly, and at the end of the day nothing changes.

 

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is grinding, and grinding efficiently.

Less grinding ultimately means that the game has a shorter lifespan, which means fewer players (which is a detriment to the community) and less income (which means DE is more likely to go out of business). I'm sure there is a healthy balance point, but I'm sure it's also hard to find.

 

As for Miasma, the biggest problems were that it monopolized builds and that its damage calculation was hideously broken (the math makes perfect sense, but that was not what was intended to happen).

 

The biggest (there are many) current problem with Miasma is the fact that it deals less damage over a longer period of time, which is a significant survivability problem in Warframe. In a game like Warframe where either the enemy is dead or you are dead, something that takes several seconds to kill an enemy means you are dead before they are dead, unless you have access to damage mitigation of some form (e.g. damage reduction or restricting an enemy's means to attack). Saryn currently has none to really work with as Miasma is only guaranteed to stun for two seconds (the stun can last up to five seconds, but is not consistent).

 

 

This.  We need more engaging gameplay that is possible to lose at, in exchange for more forgiving drop tables.  Factory farming needs to go.

I personally feel the biggest hurdle to getting more engaging gameplay is the expectation (and the fulfillment of that expectation) of new content every week. I think if DE can find a point where they can say "no updates except urgent bug fixes" for a month or two (and the player base agrees to it), they would be able to churn out higher quality content.

[YasaiTsume]

Revert Changes for Saryn health and give Corrosive proc back pls q.q 

[Judgebanks]

Less grinding ultimately means that the game has a shorter lifespan, which means fewer players (which is a detriment to the community) and less income (which means DE is more likely to go out of business). I'm sure there is a healthy balance point, but I'm sure it's also hard to find.

 

Not really, competitive PvE content can redirect gameplay from grind to competition.

[Rankii]

Has DE given any feedback on any this?

Haha, nope! She's in "a good place" now so we stand a snowball's chance in hell of them actually listening to players' who aren't 100% satisfied with it. Which is a shame when players like https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557106-long-saryn-build-analysis-comparing-old-and-new-miasma-lots-of-math/ have put so much effort and actual thought (as opposed to "boo hoo, you were just a miasma spammer" from mercury misfits) that isn't going to see the any actual feedback from someone that matters...except maybe a snide dismissal on the next prime time/dev stream.

[Culaio]

I like what the Warframe team did to Saryn. She is fun to use now, and doesn't make me want to slam my head into a wall from being on the same team as a Saryn user.

 

You do realize that "fun" to play frame isnt the same thing as "good/useful" frame ? for example when Atlas was first released most people said that Atlas is "fun" to play frame but almost no one said that Atlas is "good/useful" frame, DE had to buff it a lot to finally make it useful.

[Inarticulate]

Not really, competitive PvE content can redirect gameplay from grind to competition.

Competitive PvE only appeals to a subset of any player base, and usually not a majority (especially so if it wasn't implemented early). It can even turn some players off if there are rewards locked behind it. Casual players may not see the point in competing against people who play day in and day out or dislike playing in a competitive atmosphere (it's generally more inflammatory and toxic), and I would include myself in both categories.

 

I see where your argument is and it can work, but it will be difficult to successfully execute such changes while keeping the community happy about them (specifically "happy" and not "resigned that it happened and is here to stay").