Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Heidrek]

 

Saryn Revisited

 

With this update comes a lot of exciting changes to Saryn’s abilities, giving her more synergy between each power and putting more emphasis on her ability to debuff enemies with Viral and Toxin procs.  As always we will continue to monitor Saryn after the launch of this rework.

Please post your feedback in our megathread here:

 

• Spore Revisions
  • Saryn’s Venom Ability has been renamed to Spore.
  • Guaranteed Viral proc on explosion of spores.
  • If current host has a toxin Proc (i.e from Contagion or any other source), it will transfer that proc too.
  • Damage ticks will be done every second, duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
  • Increase base damage of the ability.
• Molt Revisions
  • Spore can be cast on Molt, infects units which attack Molt.
  • Miasma cast in range of Molt will feed into Molt, creating more damage on explosion.
  • All Spores on Molt Clones will detonate and spread on the clone’s death.
• Toxic Lash Revisions
  • Saryn’s Contagion Ability has been renamed to Toxic Lash.
  • Slightly increased the damage and duration of Toxic Lash.
  • Guaranteed Toxin proc on melee hit.
  • Detonates a Venom spore if the target has one.
  • Damage output scales based on a percent of total damage of melee weapon with Mods, not base.
  • While Toxic Lash is active, there is a bonus damage reduction while blocking. This damage reduction is capped at 90%.
• Miasma Revisions
  • Damage ticks will be done every second, Duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Viral proc (Venom guarantees a Viral proc when exploded).
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Toxin proc (Contagion guarantees a Toxin proc on impact).
  • Enemies hit by Miasma when under the effects of Miasma will have the duration timer reset.
  • Increase base damage overall.
• General Revisions
  • Saryn now has a passive 25% increased Status effect duration.
  • Updated some visual FX on Saryn’s abilities.
  • Saryn can now cast Spore and Toxic Lash while moving.
  • Saryn’s base Armor is now 175.
  • Saryn’s base Health is now 125.
  • Saryn’s maximum Energy is now 150.

 

Ummm miasma needs some more duration or to become toggable, and max energy at 150? The UI still says 225

[akira_him]

One more thing, this rework makes primed continuity a necessary mod

[NoPainNoPotato]

Ok, there are quite a few ppl that cant understand the basic mechanics of the game. There is no such thing as "you need to figure out a new build".

The new saryn need lots of range, power str, efficiency and need to use rage now too? there is no secret here, you cant make it work. And on top of that she is slow and squishy.I want someone to point out any place where the new saryn is useful for the team, so far to me you are better of with a excalibur, even with a oberon.

 

Everyone welcome the new limbo of the frames. (i mean at least limbo can go in the rift and you dont need to keep picking the guy up, saryn on the other hand...)

[Xarteros]

Reposting previous message with better revisions

Saryn is now far too dependent on basically every stat. 

You can't sacrifice strength or all of your damage just plummets, leaving you with basically nothing but the ability to spread viral procs

You can't sacrifice efficiency or your now-powerful abilities become too expensive, since you need to cast so much

You can't sacrifice range or almost all your abilities become preposterously useless, spores won't spread and you'll effectively have no AoE damage

You can't sacrifice duration because now literally everything benefits from duration.



I'd say buff the base range values and the base damage of everything she has, so sacrificing a little in those areas won't be as impacting, and keeping them at standard values is still ok. This would let you build for efficiency/duration, which are now much more essential than before. It also means that running higher strength or higher range becomes a more worthwhile sacrifice for the efficiency/duration you're losing, since better base strength/range would make those builds much more effective

Edit: Because Miasma now can't do burst DPS, the fact that it only affects targets present at the time is incredibly detrimental. To compensate, make it an AoE effect that persists in the area for its duration, stunning enemies as they enter. This reduces the effective damage loss it has suffered, and also means its low range is slightly less detrimental. To make it much better, make it stackable, so multiple zones overlapping deal multiplied damage. This lets high duration/efficiency builds create cheap superzones at choke points that deal very high damage, and give the player a bit more time to focus on spreading spores (and further increase the miasma damage).

Also make it so once an enemy has entered the Miasma cloud, they take the full amount of remaining damage even if they leave the area (otherwise it would become even worse)

Double Edit: Because of how difficult it is to make use of the new synergy (it's hard to stack spores on something while keeping it alive, then hitting it with Toxic Lash at an opportune time to maximise spreading) the mechanic needs a quick fix. Spores should pop instantly on enemy death and spread at its normal range. Spores popped by Toxic Lash (or by being shot) need to spread at an increased range. I'm thinking an extra 50% range, to reward players who play smart and react quickly, but without penalizing other players. I like difficult mechanics to master, but not when every other warframe's mechanics are so much easier and more effective.

Triple Edit: For MUCH better team-play, make all spores popped by direct shots or by Toxic Lash have a chance to drop HEALTH ORBS! Creates a much more beneficial environment for team-play. Toxic Lash needs to affect nearby allies, like War Cry does, and be re-castable (so you can add more allies in partway through the duration). Allies gain the extra toxin damage/blocking bonus and the instant-pop feature for spores which now drop health orbs.

At the very least, this makes Saryn useful for boosting team survivability and damage output, while creating a team health-restore function as well. With her other changes, it means spores are constantly spreading with limited maintenance required (due to increased base range and pop-on-death), making you free to lay down zones of Miasma that are now doing reliably more damage (instead of being very difficult to synergise with) and buffing teammates.

[Husla]

Let's stop with the it's all about "synergy" and state the true which is Miasma got nerfed.

[MasterControl]

After giving her a good go..

 

I understand where a lot of the hate is coming from, but I feel that folks are being a little too hard on the rework. I love the direction this is heading, she's way better than before in a few respects, not as good in others. It's a good starting point. First of all, I can actually use all my powers without having to cry over my build gimping one thing or another. Duration is now very viable! I'd ask that you revert her HP gimp, it's really hard on her, even with Regenerative Molt. That, and Miasma needs to be slightly more rewarding. I was counting 3000 damage a tick with all my procs and such going on. However, I understand that Miasma needs some limiting factor due to it's strength, and it's in a perfect place in terms of how often it can be cast. It's got a good spam limiter on it with the necessity to put all these procs down first. But at the same time, it IS hard to pull off, and needs maybe a 30% base damage buff to be worth it, and as stated before, it should create a lingering fog for those not originally caught. Finally, spore needs to be just a bit more reliable to spread.. I'm tired of casting Spore only for my Kubrow or a teammate to deck the floor with that guy, wasting my energy for no reward. Efficiency is fine, I'm running 85% and I'm not having too many energy issues with Rage.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Mastercontrol98

[hukurokuju5]

why are energy costs always 25 / 50 //75 //100 ?  shouldnt they be tailored to the design of the kit??

[AzureTerra]

Then go play your ash prime, we'll be over enjoying Saryn and her change of style

[Inarticulate]

why are energy costs always 25 / 50 //75 //100 ?  shouldnt they be tailored to the design of the kit??

Saryn's are currently 25 / 50 / 50 / 100.

[BaneOfOrion]

We didn't have guaranteed viral procs on spore detonation with Venom.  Now we do, and it's hard to deny the value of being to apply multiple viral procs 100% of the time.   

its called anything from the red veil syndicate store. put viral damage mods on top if you want. just give me my goddam main back

[Sarloth]

I honestly feel this was a completely missed opportunity by DE.

 

Saryn definitely needed a rework, as she had several issues. Most of her skills were rarely if never used, and her Miasma was too powerful once you dove into negative duration. (Personally, i see that as smart play, and that in itself shouldn't need to be punished, though obviously the end result shouldn't be this powerful)

 

However, instead of taking this opportunity to make new and interesting effects, making the other skills properly viable each on their own (just like frost. all his skills are actually worth using for each their own situation), they instead decided to stick to their old effects (yeah sure, there are spores now, but the general idea of targeting 1 enemy with a damage proc that can spread remains), and then force people to use those "worthless" skills to have any real damage on Miasma.

Sure, we'll actually use the other skills now, but only because we're forced to, not because the skills themselves are really interesting to use. On the whole, the new kit seems just as uninteresting as the previous one, with the added cumbersome trait of having to do forced skill rotations.

 

In itself, i don't think combo-skills are actually a bad idea. In fact, i very much like the ideology behind it, but it stops working when the skills aren't really viable on their own.

Instead they are more or less -required-, and are pretty much just used for the sole purpose of making Miasma deal a decent amount of damage. They might as well just have made miasma that much stronger, cost that much more energy and have that much longer cast time.

I heard several people claim that this made saryn "require more brainwork", but in fact, it simply changed from "press 4 to win", into "press 1-2-4 to... compete". That's not more intelligent play, it's just conveyer-belt spamming.

More "intelligent" play requires options, and your only real "option" here, is whether you want to pre-buff miasma with 1, 2 or 3 skills.

 

On top of that, the only skill i actually liked using beforehand (molt) have actually gotten worse from this rework, as it is popped early by using Miasma, completely defeating the purpose of staying safe while the poison finishes off the enemies. It actually became 100% a Miasma support skill, instead of before where you COULD actually use it in a bad situation, to narrowly escape death.

 

Concluding on that, i actually feel that this rework, which was intended to REMOVE focus from Miasma , actually ended up forcing your focus even more on Miasma. Everything in her kit is pretty much just about firing off that one "powerful" miasma. Which will probably kill like 2 enemies, because ember killed the rest while you were messing around.

 

<end of critizism, start of suggestions, which might be disregarded, but i don't feel i can simply say it's bad, without offering ideas of my own as to how it could be done better>

 

As a complete rollback is probably not in the cards (game companies can't lose face in front of their players and such), i'd rather see another rework, exploring more options into actual reworks of what saryns skills could do. Personally i think these ideas could make for some more interesting gameplay with a reworked Saryn:

 

Venom:  complete rework. probably needs to be renamed too.  <flavour> Saryn converts some of her blood to poison, to fuel her other abilities </flavour> saryn takes 50% of her max hp in damage. saryn recovers 100 energy/20% max energy. Saryn is slowed by 20% for 5 seconds. Saryns maxhp is lowered by 15% (stackable for multiple casts) for 60 seconds.

 

Molt:  Spawn several copies, with the ability to run around on their own (or even seek out and run towards the nearest target). Works to distract enemies, as well as make it actually possible for enemies to hit them for the poison proc.

Combo-effect: When casting Miasma, you'll actually cast a Miasma for EACH molt clone you have active (plus yourself), centered on each of them, but the power divided between the casts.

 

Contagion:  complete rework. even tanky, her kit isn't built for heavy melee. instead: Target enemy is disarmed (or some other effect causing it to want to melee, but without stealing loki's thunder) and get radiation proc. This spreads if the target successfully melee attacks another enemy.

 

Miasma:  buff base damage significantly, but reduce range somewhat, so it's not a room-clear, but she'll actually do enough damage to compete with other damage-focused frames.

Combo-effect: gain +10% damage per active Molt clone. (enough that it's worth using Molt to spread it out there, but not so much that you can't feel the damagedrop from spreading your damage across several smaller miasmas).

Combo-effect: recover 5 energy for each enemy hit by miasma, affected by contagion

Edited November 5, 2015 by Sarloth

[UGOTCOOKIES]

Saryn used to be my third most played Warframe, after Loki and Frost, but now it feels like there are other frames that do her job faster and more efficiently. w00tm0ng3r sums up the rework well. However i do agree with DE's idea of synergising her abilities as her 1st and 3rd abilities were pretty much never used. Hopefully some things are tweaked soon and having less energy costs would be a nice start.

 

 

Overall this feels like a massive nerf. I spend more energy to do less damage over a much longer period of time while being less tanky.

[starpursuer]

So lets sum up everything:

 

Stats:

- Healh reduced (for no reason);

- Armor increased (not enough amount);

- Energy (see below);

 

Abilities:

- Spore: casting it while running / shooting isn't worth it; WF is a fast paced game, if you can aim to cast it, you can snipe a headshot;

- Molt: not the worst, not the best; FUN ADD: cast Molt near enemies > shoot your Atomos on it > watch it redirect EVERYWHERE;

- Toxic Lash: doesn't work most of the time and is not a real increase on damage;

- Miasma: unreliable; long 'cast' low-damage DoT that has a weak and unreliable CC;

 

My take on changes:

You now need way too much Energy to do what many frames can do with half the cost, time and modding necessary. On reading this thread I thought some cool things that could've been done with this rework:

 

- Spore: Spreads spores to all enemies in a 1m - 2m- 3m range from Saryn. Damage stays the same, spreading stays the same but will (100%) occur on enemy kill.

- Molt: Stays the same (as current) but will move to the opposite direction Saryn is faced (in relaxed walking speed) up to 2m (fixed value?).

- Toxic Lash: Stays the same, duration is increased, 50%(or+) chance to proc Gas on block (has the same block values from new one), increased damage or reworked for better scaling.

- Miasma (1): Creates a thick toxic fog that can proc 25% Corrosive, 25% Viral, 25% Gas and 25% Toxic (with increased damage for pure Toxic) to all enemies in a big AoE, while dealing damage per tick, up to 5 ticks. If enemies affected by Spore are in the AoE, those spores will explode dealing damage, spreading Spores to any enemy in the explosion area (similar to chain explosions for MolPrime). If enemies kill a Molt or it expires inside Miasma, a new one will be spawned randomly in a 5m around Saryn (can have multiple Molts including any new casted one, up to 5 total depending on duration).

- Miasma (2): Brings back the old one (won't happen).

 

[i think this Miasma would be fun to play with, making her skills synergize, while not necessarily making her A) a Nuker but still viable in several ocasions; B) NEED P.Flow to use her skills (no spamming of 1+2+3) and C) not needing complex modding.]

 

My Opinion:

I didn't really fear the change to her "press 4 kill ALL" because it was cheesy, and cheesy ≠ fun. But the current change reminded me of

. I just hope Saryn comes back for her 'roaring rampage of revenge'.

[Pride]

i agree with this it needs not only a duration buff but a minor damage buff 500 damage 6 seconds 15m base would make this into valuable skill currently its out performed by venom+toxing ignis/toxin torid

[--Sensei--]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_Storm

 

Maximized Power Strength and Steel Charge increases the damage to 9,088 per attack.

• Increases the cost to 155 energy.
• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.

 

• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.
• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.
• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.

 

Well then, that's some nice bleed dot tick you got there Sa- I mean Ash.

[NoPainNoPotato]

I dont get the ash thing going on here. He's ult does a lot of dmg? yes, it makes him invulnerable? yes, so what? that is his thing, he's a dps frame, what are you going to do? take out the dmg of a dps frame? what is the point on it.

Edited November 5, 2015 by NoPainNoPotato

[Turtlestacks]

Yea the only point is to watch her gather dust in your closet. Please spread the word so people don't waste money on that stupid skin. IT IS NOT WORTH THE PLAT. Maybe if it cost 10 plat, then MAYBE it would be worth. Even if you want to get it because it's exclusive just do not buy the skin. I bought it before trying her which was a huge mistake.

 

She's impossible to build and her stats are too screwed up now. I ffound a build that kinda of works but you need and orthos p with primed reach (lol right) then you spam 3, 1 and then you die but everything dies with you. So thats an end game viable saryn for you. It requires you to die though.

 

So, DE, the next time you decide to rework something just don't. I would rather get beat in the head by a hammer wielding monkey than deal with this again. I was pretty excited for the rhino and mag rework, but not anymore. I hope you just leave them alone. Thy're ok just fine the way they are. Please don't touch any more frames just let them be. 

[Husla]

I dont get the ash thing going on here. He's ult does a lot of dmg? yes, it makes him invulnerable? yes, so what? that is his thing, he's a dps frame, what are you going to do? take out the dmg of a dps frame? what is the point on it.

Make all abilites redundant by 2018

[-CM-Hekovashi]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_Storm

 

Maximized Power Strength and Steel Charge increases the damage to 9,088 per attack.

• Increases the cost to 155 energy.
• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.

 

• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.
• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.
• Increases the total bleed damage to 22,265.6 per attack.

 

Well then, that's some nice bleed dot tick you got there Sa- I mean Ash.

And he didn't need duration\range to do that damage, tho i think DE will fix it with their upcoming bladestorm ner...rework

[Heatnix.]

 

i wanna know that build

 

I don't know if you noticed but that Saryn died a couple of times in that video. It can't take damage.

Why would anyone want to play a weak tank, DOT sort of, Poison kind of Warframe when there's other Warframes out there than can do this waaaay better without the need of using ALL your skills for your maximum damage potential?  She's not a tank. She doesn't kill on the spot. She doesn't stun. She doesn't cause a spread of DOT without physically having to interact at close range. All of these things are simply pathetic at this point of the game when we have Frames that can do so much more. Valkyr and Exalibur laugh at this pathetic attempt at a DOT tank. I'm not even bringing Ash on this one. Ash is on a different plane altogether.

Edited November 5, 2015 by DoomBunny.

[Turtlestacks]

I dont get the ash thing going on here. He's ult does a lot of dmg? yes, it makes him invulnerable? yes, so what? that is his thing, he's a dps frame, what are you going to do? take out the dmg of a dps frame? what is the point on it.

Well when you take the dmg out of a dps frame you get saryn. Which is a good thing apparently.

[Hammonsters]

It would be a lot easier actually if saryn's abilities worked with all toxin based damages.

It would make sense and it would add more synergy to weapons and give us reason to use the toxic lash augment.

 

Just my opinion but it's really cool when you get the red veil viral proc and then press 4 and one shot everything. 

But it kind of sucks when you can't do that with guys like arbiters of hexis or new loka. I like the rakta cernos and all, but I like my other weapons too.

 

Also maybe toxic lash should a toggle ability, I feel like it would have more use that way saying that it only lasts for about half a minute and recasting it for the Molt + Spore + Toxic Lash + Miasma combo is extremely expensive especially when dealing with enemies up close. It should also give Saryn a boost in melee range but kind of a (toxic reach) thing so it is actually more of a lash rather than a toxic bath. 

 

Spore should probably act as more of a "Pool" ability where you can set it up and thus "infect" enemies who pass through it and then causing it to spread once that enemy has died (kind of like trinity's energy vamp explosion only on multiple targets). Because after several missions I've noticed that once activating Spore, it becomes a hit or miss ability and is extremely unreliable as a standard first ability compared to someone like Frost, Mag, Chroma, Loki, and even hydroid's.

 

Stat wise I'm all okay with lowering her health down and energy buff, but her slight armor buff is extremely underwhelming. Especially since her kit relies on her getting close to her enemies, butchers and ancients have a great time cutting through that health because she goes down faster than a kid on a swing.

 

Going Negative duration still rewards players for following the Combo playstyle. The Molt + Spore + Molt + Miasma combo does a whole lot more damage than it has before, but once again it's pretty expensive and it becomes unreliable once enemies quickly start dropping bombs and bullets like there's no tomorrow. So some range buffs to molt and spore could work. 

 

Other than that I enjoy the changes, Saryn is a lot more fun and rewards players who like the "advanced" combo playstyle and really packs a punch.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Hammonsters

[-CM-Hekovashi]

I dont get the ash thing going on here. He's ult does a lot of dmg? yes, it makes him invulnerable? yes, so what? that is his thing, he's a dps frame, what are you going to do? take out the dmg of a dps frame? what is the point on it.

Saryn-dps frame, ash-dps frame. It's ok to compare them in terms of dps. And saryn now fails miserably due to energy cost\dps stats

[--Sensei--]

And he didn't need duration\range to do that damage, tho i think DE will fix it with their upcoming bladestorm ner...rework

 

I can see it now........... Ash Ne- I mean rework will unleash salt that will cover the earth 10x over.

[akira_him]

One last thing, I guess I have to hold before buying the deluxe skin

I don't want to waste money on a frame that I will never use