New Players And Potato Acquisition Rates - A Troubling Development

[Jukantos]

Okay, so let's get one thing out of the way straight away, i am not affected by this issue in any way. I have stacks of 15+ of both potato types built up and i have the ways opened to get every last one of them which is made available to the playerbase. Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to new players, and a couple of my friends have needed my support more and more in the form of me simply gifting them potatos so they could keep playing the game with new gear. That's an issue for a multitude of reasons.

 

If you give new players the impression that potatos for their gear by definition need to be acquired via platinum, it can scare them off the game, because of how comparatively weak it leaves their equipment without them. Especially if they hang around high level friends like me and have a slight feeling of disempoweredness anyway because of the high level enemies in the (for example void-)missions i take them on.

 

Let's look at all the ways for players to obtain Orokin Catalysts, and Orokin Reactors (hereafter referred to as potatos), sorted by their accessability and rarity.

 

1) Login Rewards. Random, rare, uncontrollable and thus not really applicable as a source of potatos for new players. Never been that important as one anyway.

 

2) Invasions. These are the rarest and hardest to get to potato blueprints. They require to have a typically late-game planet unlocked, to realize the invasion is actually happening, as well as multiple runs to qualify for it, while typically the limited number of runs before the invasion finishes is usually rapidly drained by the playerbase. This is for the most part completely impossible for newer players to access or even be aware off, as they are not displayed on the navigation console unlike the other two types of potato-dropping missions.

 

3)Short-Time alerts. Typically between 40 and 110 minutes long, you probably have to be lucky to be online or follow the twitter alerts feed (he he he) to catch them. I regularly alert my buddies to pick these up (badumm tss) but they are rare and not reliable, also apparently most common around 4am european time xD

 

4) Gifts of the Lotus (Devstream potatos).

 

And this is it, the core of the problem. After each dev stream, an alternating potato is handed out via a gift of the lotus mission. These missions typically spawn on one of the lowest planets (deepest ive ever seen was mars) and last for 24 hours, giving everyone enough time to grab them. Unfortunately, as dev streams only happen twice a month, that's only one potato of each type.

 

THIS USED TO BE DIFFERENT: i can remember very clearly, once upon a time Prime Time and the devstream were held in alternating weeks and there was a rather clear statement by DE that there'd be a reliable potato every week to be grabbed after these, which i happily did. It helped me spend my platinum on more skins because i didn't have to buy all the potatos for my equipment collection which i was developing at the time (also obviously helped with inventory space purchases)

 

Now again, for me this is a non-issue, but it heavily affects my friends who are newer to the game. And then, when i see Baro Ki Teer bring along a blue potato for the ridicolous price of 700 ducats and hundreds of thousands of credits, which my friends said "felt like it was there just to drive the point home that these potatos should be bought for platinum" and that they "wouldn't wanna play Warframe today because they didn't have the necessary items to upgrade their gear with", it makes me feel isolated and frustrated. New players are excluded from upgrading their gear and accessing all of the game's systems in an escalating way (inventory slots, potatos, exilus adapters, lenses) which drives them away from the game,. That shouldn't happen.

 

Please create more than 1 realiable potato of each type per month. Please consider returning weekly Gifts of the Lotus on weekends for these new players who need it. I'll happily keep taxi'ing my friends to these invasions and alerts, but they are getting disgruntled with the game, and i'd be sad if they left over something as minuscule as being locked out of 20plat consumables being so utterly necessary and scarce.

[NinthAria]

I've long felt that, considering how necessary they are for late-game builds, there really ought to be a place where you can farm (or at least try to farm) catalysts/reactors, in the same way that you can for things like Forma. They're on the sortie rewards list, which is a small step in the right direction, but that also doesn't help newer players any.

[taiiat]

or, rather than just giving them away, rewarding Players for proving themselves in legitimately challenging Missions.

Sorties tries to do this but rewards are too wide with randomness, and are also way out of the practical league for an established Player to play, mostly just veterans.

 

Potatoes are not necessary, but are a huge boost to a piece of Equipment, and for a Free Player, should be treated with value, selectively choosing Equipement, with more play time giving opportunity to choose more things.

and yes, Potatoes aren't necessary. Polarizing Equipment allows fitting most of your min/max Loadout as it is, and is readily available.

 

 

the Free Player then, if managed this way, has a much more interesting progression trend for their Equipment than paying Players do, as they are earning their big upgrade, rather than using it on everything.

 

duly note, what i have in mind should be targeted towards established Players, ones that have been experimenting with things and should have a firm grasp of most or all of the game's systems - but haven't been playing for a century that lets them do everything without batting an eyelash.

[polarity]

Sorry, but if new players are going for a selection of frames and weapons before unlocking planets and getting one frame up to a decent level, then they have made their choice and have to live with the consequences.

 

It's a constant in pretty much every MMO out there.  You get one class up to a high level, and then use it to support your others.  If you start out rolling a bunch of alts and try to progress them all together, you end up suffering.

 

I see no reason why DE should give people who don't contribute towards the game an easy ride, and lose a source of income in the process.  If you make the right choices, then the rate potatos are available at is perfectly reasonable.  If you want to branch out early, then you can get enough plat for several frames/weapons for a pittance, especially if you get a discount (which many say you have a higher chance of getting on a new account).

 

Also, you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that you don't even need to buy platinum.  Any player, regardless of their level, can farm for mods / parts to sell to other players.  I've got void keys at MR0 from the earth excavation, and run low tier void missions shortly after.  I've even grouped with an MR1 who was hosting a T3Sa mission (thankfully he had the sense to fit an aura mod and redirection).

 

You might want to change your gear when playing with lower levelled friends.  There's nothing stopping you from levelling new equipment, or forma-ing old, so your friends can actually take part in the game instead of being carried, and made to feel useless unless they gear up.

 

Or better yet, change the people you play with.  It's pretty obvious from the way they expect to be carried/won't pay anything/won't learn how to support themselves/make excuses not to play, that your friends just aren't interested in the game.  I know.  I've tried to get my friends into games and the exact same has happened.

Edited January 23, 2016 by polarity

[NinthAria]

It's not about free players vs. paying players, it's about newer players vs. established players. Newer players don't have access to most of the star chart, so non-devstream alerts and invasions are usually out even if they're on at the right time. Events are possible, but questionably doable due to equipment needs. Sorties are right out of the question for obvious reasons. Baro Ki'teer, even if he continues his trend of offering superchargers, currently has a rather prohibitive cost attached. And while, yes, catalysts/reactors aren't "necessary" in the technical sense--you can, in theory, do even most high-level content without them, provided you have a lot of Forma--they're still generally accepted as a given for most high-level content. I know for my part if I'm packing a weapon without a catalyst in it, it's probably a weapon I'm not using past mid-level areas like Sedna or Europa. But even putting that aside, tell a new player sometime to "just Forma all your gear a bunch instead"--and don't forget to explain what that entails--and see what their reaction is. I doubt it's going to be one that involves actually playing Warframe.

 

And no, Forma is not "readily available" for a new player. Not unless you have a buddy who can get you to the places you need to go, either for the blueprints themselves or the resources to craft them.

[polarity]

Additional frames/weapons/potatoes for them, aren't going to do diddly-squat for your strength in the game without levelled up mods to go in them.  You need to unlock planets to access the sources for many of the mods, as well as resources for crafting.  You also need to do a lot of work collecting junk mods/cores to level the good mods you have.

 

Potatoes are only a limiting factor to your progress once you have more decent, levelled mods to fit, than you have space for.  If you're just chucking in every mod you have, unlevelled, then you're not making a decent build.  Another point on your serration will be worth far more than space for another unranked/half ranked mod like ammo drum.

 

Get aura mods and level them up.  You can use them to fit high rank redirection on a level 0 frame (the mod you should focus on levelling first, because it lets you play higher level content. without being such a burden on the other players).  The same goes for stances, they let you put more mods in your melee, if levelled and with matching polarity.

 

Keep one of every mod, in case you want it later, and chuck any extras towards ranking up the most vital mods to a decent level before going back to the others.

[DSpite]

Not having Reactors/Catalysts does not stop you playing the game in ANY way, as you can destroy anything on the Star Chart without needing either in gear. By the time you start "min-maxing" things, at least a handful of both will have showed up as Alerts, allowing a player to have a starting base of super-charged Frames and Weapons.

 

Does the current system make it hard to super-charge EVERYTHING you get your hand on? Sure. So what?

 

You get enough Plat to get a Reactor and a Catalyst for one Frame, which will allow you time to play all the game through and collect the rest you might use in Alerts, and if you have no patience, then that is what the market is for.

[TheFalseEclipse]

DE actually give us option to buy potato without plat (though the ducat price is a bit too high). And also, theres already several potato invasion and alert this month.

[Rydian]

I saw this thread and thought to myself "I need to make a video".

So here's me beating a level 30 mission with no potato points.  In fact...

- All weapons are MR2 or below.
- All gear used with no potato points.
- All mods rank 6 or below.

- No event, vault, or nightmare mods.
- No sentinel/kubrow.
- No arcanes (of either type).
- No power 5 (and thus no passives).

This isn't meant as a display of skill or anything (I slip up a few times in the video), it's just a basic "yo, it's perfectly possible" example.  Being cautious and using some basic tactics can go a long way when fighting stuff that's on the same level as you.  This mission would be made easier by easing up any of those restrictions (other than no potato points), such as using sentinels, ranking mods some more, using stronger weapons... or simply bringing another player along.

By the time a player is clearing Neptune, they have access to at least some of the above things.
They'll also have plenty of star chart completion to open themselves up for alerts and invasions.

 

EDIT: Added the bit about only using star chart mods.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Rydian

[Davoodoo]

No to be a partypooper Rydian, but you have experience, perfect mods for these restrictions and you even matched frame and weapons against enemy.

 

How much of the same can be said about new players??

Edited January 23, 2016 by Davoodoo

[AutoPhox]

No to be a partypooper Rydian, but you have experience, perfect mods for these restrictions and you even matched frame and weapons against enemy.

How much of the same can be said about new players??

Players can learn. Especially if they play through the star chart and interact with other players. I think Rydain has a good argument.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

No to be a partypooper Rydian, but you have experience, perfect mods for these restrictions and you even matched frame and weapons against enemy.

 

How much of the same can be said about new players??

it seems like its more of a proof of concept in that it is possible albeit not ideal it is indeed possible

 

@OP Add sorties to OP MR4 and a level 30 frame can still somewhat be considered new to the game

(of course heavily depending on possible taxi rides from friends to level and grind MR) but as in most cases very impractical and very uncommon

[Davoodoo]

Yes its possible, but at a time when game should be easiest, so new players could learn at leisure pace its actually hardest for them.

F*** pacing and tested and proven game design.

 

And yeah, ppl with years of experience and perfect loadout. What will you need to get that perfect loadout?? slots, how much they cost?? roughly as much as potatoes.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Davoodoo

[MagPrime]

Every even MR test, give them a bluetato. Every odd MR test, give them goldtato.

[Rydian]

No to be a partypooper Rydian, but you have experience, perfect mods for these restrictions and you even matched frame and weapons against enemy.

 

How much of the same can be said about new players??

- "Experience", "new players"?

Earth -> Mercury -> Mars -> Saturn -> Phobos -> Europa -> Neptune is the progression to get to that planet, and that's ignoring other lower-level planets on the other branch that could easily be visited first too (Venus, Jupiter, and Sedna).

 

- "Perfect mods"?

No event mods, no vault mods, no nightmare mods, everything drops in the star chart.  I even avoided using Crimson Dervish so I wouldn't go full melee to use those multipliers.

 

- "Matched frame and weapons"?

If I had gone around doing nothing but spamming Shield Polarize with magnetic on everything sure that might be a valid argument, but I didn't.  I used a different element on all three weapons (partially to show that weak points matter too).  I'm actually rusty with Mag and would have done better with Excalibur or something, but this was pretty spur-of-the-moment and I thought it was thematic.

 

 

 

I mean if the argument is "Well you used a decent frame and modded decently"... well duh, by the time somebody's cleared out at least 6 planets on the star chart I expect them to know the basics like that.  Potatoes give points, not knowledge, and potatoes are the main discussion here.

[Davoodoo]

- "Experience", "new players"?

Earth -> Mercury -> Mars -> Saturn -> Phobos -> Europa -> Neptune is the progression to get to that planet, and that's ignoring other lower-level planets on the other branch that could easily be visited first too (Venus, Jupiter, and Sedna).

 

- "Perfect mods"?

No event mods, no vault mods, no nightmare mods, everything drops in the star chart.  I even avoided using Crimson Dervish so I wouldn't go full melee to use those multipliers.

 

- "Matched frame and weapons"?

If I had gone around doing nothing but spamming Shield Polarize with magnetic on everything sure that might be a valid argument, but I didn't.  I used a different element on all three weapons (partially to show that weak points matter too).  I'm actually rusty with Mag and would have done better with Excalibur or something, but this was pretty spur-of-the-moment and I thought it was thematic.

 

 

 

I mean if the argument is "Well you used a decent frame and modded decently"... well duh, by the time somebody's cleared out at least 6 planets on the star chart I expect them to know the basics like that.  Potatoes give points, not knowledge, and potatoes are the main discussion here.

You play this for nearly 3 years now, new players play this for days or weeks before they hit that problem.

 

Ideal 30 points loadout, something that new player wont be able to prepare especially without knowledge about game and this comes from experience.

 

Mag + mainly impact weapons against corpus.

Impact +50% dmg against shields.

 

You had 3 years to learn enemies, gain knowledge about mods, get timing for dodges, learn maps and prepare loadouts.

You cant put yourself in shoes of player just starting even if you make new account because of this.

 

I have my mk1 braton fully formated with best possible build rdy for long t4 runs, but because thats possible for me i wouldnt ever tell other ppl that other weapons arent needed.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Davoodoo

[Rydian]

Mag + mainly impact weapons against corpus.

... did you even watch past the loadout?

 

I used primarily the weapons, I fired off my other skills (especially Shield Polarize) less due to energy costs/conservation (I'm not running Primed Flow and Fleeting here).  It's not like the weapons are 90%+ impact or anything.  In fact the Heat Sword is raw heat damage, the Scrambus/Comba enemies are mostly health, neither do well against Oxium Ospreys, etc.

 

I honestly would have just used the Braton/Lato but mine have enough Forma on them that I avoided it so people wouldn't see the Forma'd slots and use it as an excuse to dismiss the video without being bothered to add up the points used or anything.  I really don't feel like ranking up duplicate weapons to 30 just to prove facts to somebody anyways.

 

 

You had 3 years to learn enemies

- Oh yeah, those Comba and Scrambus enemies have totally been around f- no wait, they're recent additions.

 

- Well those Sapping Ospreys which have been around since the sta- wait no they're relatively new.

 

- Hey man remember how Nullifiers have been around for three years now and- oh wait no they haven't.

 

Besides that, it's not like Warframe is a fighting game where I need to learn combos or to counter enemy moves or anything like that, and the enemies that do have anything special about them at all can be "learned" in 10 goddamned seconds.

 

Comba/Scrambus?  Shoot the helmets off and their powers stop.

Sapping Osprey?  Shoot the middle bit to kill the AoE, or simply avoid the bright shiny AoE.

Nullifiers?  Well, if you shoot at their bubble, it shrinks and then pops.  Neat.

 

 

get timing for dodges

You're grasping at straws here.  The video was NOT a skilled example, I was NOT playing very well, I did some stupid stuff a few times and I wasn't running around dodging everything.

 

Besides that, the discussion is on the availability of potatoes.  You do not need potatoes to get to the point where you can get potatoes, that's what the video was meant to show.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Rydian

[cittran]

While I agree -- to an extent -- that potatoes/blutatoes are quite difficult to acquire early on, I can think of one thing which will IMMENSELY ease the burdens of this game, yet something which apparently rather few people seem to actually use.

 

READING THE BLOODY F-ING WIKI.

 

Seriously, the timing of Baro ALONE is evident that far fewer people read the wiki than should be reading it. It's ridiculous how frequently people show up JUST after he leaves, going "WHERE'S BARO!?".

 

He sticks to -- almost without variance -- the EXACT SAME SCHEDULE, and EVERY time. The only variance I can recall is during one visit, he stayed an extra hour (or two, can't recall exactly), because there had been server outages during the day.

Edited January 23, 2016 by cittran