Strun Wraith Changes

[ashrah]

reload is really cool  strun need crit chance buff from 15-25%

[taiiat]

strun need crit chance buff from 15-25%

then Crit Mods would be mandatory on it.

you could do that, but is there reason to? i don't really see it.

 

more Crit Shotguns absolutely, but i don't think Strun is a good choice for high Crit Stats. the original version being basically a Starter Weapon (not quite, but close enough), and the special version already having a defined role that it excels at.

[AutoPhox]

i would like to see someone that believes Magazine Reloading is faster than Sequential innately show how this is actually the case.

this is a Video Game, where we have full control over everything, including how long it takes to complete a bulk Reload or a Sequential one.

 

if you and others like you don't want to understand that, sobeit, but also stop talking.

 

...

 

First of all, do not be disrespectful.

 

Secondly, please explain what you are talking about because 5 seconds(strunW) is longer than 2 seconds(hek) for a full reload. Perhaps you took my sentence out of context?  Indeed, sequential reload is faster if you dont need to expend the entire clip, but In high level combat, this is not often the case. Therefore full reload times matter.

[taiiat]

-snip-

we'll try it just once more, maybe you'll listen.

 

long total time to Reload has ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER to whether the Mechanic is better or worse, good or bad.

that is just a single number, that can be adjusted. ABSOLUTELY NO link between Sequential Reloading and a long time to Reload your entire Clip/Magazine count.

 

 

if you still won't listen, i'll be actually disrespectful quietly to myself and this conversation is over.

[AutoPhox]

we'll try it just once more, maybe you'll listen.

long total time to Reload has ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER to whether the Mechanic is better or worse, good or bad.

that is just a single number, that can be adjusted. ABSOLUTELY NO link between Sequential Reloading and a long time to Reload your entire Clip/Magazine count.

if you still won't listen, i'll be actually disrespectful quietly to myself and this conversation is over.

Qualitatively, I agree. The two mechanisms of reload are just a choice of style. If that's what you mean then we are on the same page.

My confusion is where you suggest there is no connection between reloading shells and the listed time for reload. Isn't each reloaded shell dictated by the total reload time? (Divided evenly)

Or do you mean no connection between the two mechanisms, like apples and oranges?

[taiiat]

Qualitatively, I agree. The two mechanisms of reload are just a choice of style. If that's what you mean then we are on the same page.

My confusion is where you suggest there is no connection between reloading shells and the listed time for reload. Isn't each reloaded shell dictated by the total reload time? (Divided evenly)

Or do you mean no connection between the two mechanisms, like apples and oranges?

i mean that Sequential Reloading isn't mechanically 'bad' just beacause the time it takes to Reload your Magazine is too high.

that's a single number adjustment.

 

i've said that like, 4 times now. and like 6 times several months ago when Strun Series had Sequential Reloading implemented.

[AutoPhox]

i mean that Sequential Reloading isn't mechanically 'bad' just beacause the time it takes to Reload your Magazine is too high.

that's a single number adjustment.

i've said that like, 4 times now. and like 6 times several months ago when Strun Series had Sequential Reloading implemented.

I agree. Sequential reloading is totally functional. And I'd like to see more guns with it too.

I was originally just trying to illustrate where the advantages of the two mechanics change as the enemy difficulty increased. Which is a quantitative perspective only.

[Hatzeputt]

 lack of status 

Oh really......40%....seriously......words....can ...not ....

[Djego27]

The majority of Strun reload complaints come from players who want to do post-post-game content against level 100+ enemies that take the whole magazine to put down.  

 

The main problem is, it is only useful at the L100+ armor levels, even there a vaykor hek\Sancti tigris is still better. A status shotgun needs more shells per target(every kind of target, since the status comes at a big price of raw damage and the main strength of it is hitting the target with a massive stack of corrosive procs that takes a certain amount of that damage resistance away with every hit because of the broken armor scaling) then dps shotguns where the long reload just absolutely kills any kind of appeal it could have for this kind of content.

 

If you look at lower levels like L50, hek/trigris one hit bombards\heavy gunners, they reload faster, have no ammo issues, have not a lack in performance vs anything that doesn't have armor(hell the vaykor hek is the absolute best anti corpus shotgun with puncture, just because of how it scales in a pure toxic build) and no other major flaws. There is simply not a single situation where status shotguns like the boar prime/strun wraith are a real alternative to the vaykor hek or sancti tigris, leave alone the better choice since the nerfs in U17.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Djego27

[Djego27]

 

yes, 1.5sec for 8rds in bulk was too good to be true. if i was asked that, i would agree.

longer than 2.5sec for 8rds though, would be unnecessarily slow, regardless of Reloading Mechanic.

 

Why exactly?

 

Even with the 1.5s it would no where come close to the dps of other shotguns, while the reload speed has a massive impact of the main function, that is shooting the target with 5-6 rounds to soften up the armor. This is fairly similar at L50(where other shotguns one hit the unit) and L100(where they still do the job ok without the corrosive proc stacking mechanic). A status shotgun got a fairly linear scaling against armored targets, it does not fall off at high levels but it also does not provide the one hit kills against everything else while still requiring hitting light armored units more then with just normal dps shotguns even at high levels.

 

If we look at our status rifles, they are a lot closer in dps to soma\boltor prime then status shotguns are to sancti tigris/vaykor hek, ammo efficency is not that much worse for status vs dps rifles and they don't have added drawbacks like 4s reload speeds. They do scale a bit better at high levels, but you will hit the point where they are not maintainable even with primed ammo mutation to a point where you have to dump halve of a large ammo restore into a single heavy gunner\bombard at L120+ without CP or extra armor L100 sorti grenier missions. Status rifles are a fair option compared to dps rifles both at low and high levels, having different strengths and weaknesses.

 

This is not true for status shotguns vs dps shotguns at all, where dps shotguns are plain better by a mile at lower levels and even at high levels(L100+) I would rather shoot 3-4 more rounds at a bombard\heavy gunner while I save 2 for every single lancer or non armored unit in return. This all comes down to the usability changes of status shotguns since U17, if it is not feasible to keep shooting with the strun wraith solo even just 50 minutes into void survival with 2 reload speed mods on it, your status shotgun becomes pointless. Same with the boar prime, where blast means you need to shoot every single target separately because of the knock down of blast, what means your multi target dps becomes next to zero(on a weapon that already does only a fraction of top tier shotguns) and your ammo efficiency just goes completely out of the window(on a weapon that is already ammo inefficient to begin with).

 

Even with a proper reload speed on the strun wraith and 40% status on the boar prime, both would not see much use, since they still have a lot of other drawbacks compared to top tier dps shotguns. However you could say they are a option again, even if it is not a preferable one outside of playing far beyond L100 without 4 CP against armored targets.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Djego27

[JuanDeages]

You forgot that I mentioned high end levels of T1-3 (40+ mins/waves), you can't even cherry pick the starchart issue since that's 75% of the game's content. It's more than necessary for T1-T4 regular game types, then T4 high end, where ALL guns will start struggling, it actually scales with a regular, non-CP laden team.

 

It's not all about the numbers, bro. At levels where things need more than 10 Strun W shots to kill, status is much more important than damage, which it has PLENTY of (100% pre-multishot means ALL pellets proc). And if you're going to go further and dredge up an argument about its reload mechanic, you're simply looking at it at a "theory" based point of view. You do know you can stop at the first shell load, so even IF somehow the enemies are managing to stay alive for the ten shots, it takes half a second to load another for another shot, while they're most likely reeling from impact proc.

 

Against smaller mobs where it takes two or three shots to kill them in high levels, it would take a second and a half just to get back to full mag. The gun and its mechanic is perfect the way it is. I think you, and a whole lot of other people, only look at the stats and pass poor judgement because the superficial numbers don't cater to billions of damage, just like your Vayhek and Tonkor (which are GREATLY outdamaged by the Santigs).

 

Besides, what wraith weapon in the game has even come close to being endgame material? (Hint:none).

 

You sure make a lot of assumptions about me and how I view weapons in this game. This gun did the damage needed to do end game before both this pass, and the initial pass, of damage buffs DE has given it. I have never put its ability to deal damage into question. I have used this weapon before and after the changes, and vastly prefer how it played beforehand. It was a 100% status machine before and after, it was just a more fluid weapon with the 1.5 second reload. Its more efficient at doing its job with its old reload, and its more fun to use with its old reload. I don't just look at numbers on a spreadsheet, I actually use these weapons.

 

I do realize that the majority of the game's content does not lie in sorties and t4. The problem is, the majority of the star chart is just flat out not useful past your initial clear as a new player. There will of course be excavation, interception, spy and hive nodes that continue to hold value, the most infamous of which being Draco.

 

Lower tower keys, 1-3, will be useful for piecing together new sets, so that is always a place you can take lower tier gear for fun, while still getting useful rewards. Nothing is going to struggle here though. I could run my Karak Wraith through these missions with ease. I don't consider low level essential farming nodes/keys to be a true gauge of usability or strength.

 

Also, I am not saying I do not expect to see longer time to kill on level 100+ content with 1 corrosive projection or less. I fully expect that. Some guns are good enough to keep going at that point though. The Strun Wraith being one of those guns. I need more than a couple shells to drop enemies at this level.

 

The Latron Wraith was the second end game viable Wraith weapon that has been released so far.

 

As a closing note, in terms of the reload mechanic itself, it just feels clunky at this point. It is better now than on release, but it still feels bad. The main point of contention is, yes, the 5 second reload time. If this mechanic is so well liked, I don't see why it can't be on a weapon built around it. Why the Strun/Strun Wraith was drawn from a hat for a rework I just cannot understand.

Edited January 31, 2016 by JuanDeages

[taiiat]

would no where come close to the dps of other shotguns

i don't balance around extremely Overpowered Equipment.

 

Hek/Tigris Series, Drakgoon, Sobek - all are extremely Overpowered.

other Weapons should not be balanced in context of them because then we're around the same circle we've gone around 4 times already in this game - randomly increase the stats of Weapons and other Player stats, randomly increase Enemies to compensate, repeat.

 

this circle is stupid, and a compete waste of Development Time.

[Djego27]

i don't balance around extremely Overpowered Equipment.

 

Hek/Tigris Series, Drakgoon, Sobek - all are extremely Overpowered.

other Weapons should not be balanced in context of them because then we're around the same circle we've gone around 4 times already in this game - randomly increase the stats of Weapons and other Player stats, randomly increase Enemies to compensate, repeat.

 

this circle is stupid, and a compete waste of Development Time.

 

I pointed out multiple times that Hek\Tigris are way over the top, this was before the improved syndicate versions where available. I guess the only reason you see no complains about them is simply that Tonkor\synoid simulor are still way stronger and the tool of choice for most because of the ease of use.

 

I don't think Drakgoon or Sobek are OP, Sobek in fact should have a bit less of a crippling reload and Drakgoon a reasonable dps on uncharged shots for point blank multi target performance.

 

This does however not change that a status shotgun like the strun wraith does not work at high levels sufficient with a long reload time(what is a big thing since it does nothing useful outside of that). It is not a random suggestion, the boar prime, as status shotgun was my most used weapon before U17 and I know exactly what makes status shotguns useful(even if they are niche) and what just cripples them. As it stands I use my prisma grakata for L100 extra armor sortis. It needs a few more ammo restores but it does not fail to keep up and does exactly what it should in a reasonable fashion, while at the same time I can't even solo 1h with status shotguns as it stands(that is below L100 and a walk in the park with high end shotguns that need zero status mods to do that).

 

I did love my boar prime to death with all it's flaws before U17.

 

- 10m effective range, I can life with that on Ember that has to be close all the time for CC anyway

- ammo inefficient, again same deal with status rifles and a price you have to play with any kind of high level status weapon

- tons of spread that limits single target dps to a point where you never out dps a status rifle at single target, I can life with that since the extra spread had it's uses for CC

- absolute crap dps vs anything without armor, bring a good secondary weapon, same deal as with status rifles

 

In return you did get:

 

- fairly reasonable reload speed, magazine size and rof for a status weapon

- better fire damage scaling then on status rifles(only important if you play ember, but that is what I do)

- higher proc/s what did result in quicker kill time of heavy targets, a bit outside of Ember that favours status shotguns over rifles because of the fire scaling

- AOE CC what is a major deal, since on the prisma grakata you don't even have room for punch through so you have to shoot everything for CC seperatly

 

Before U17 it was a trade off and both did work reasonable well without making the other thing pointless. I still use status rifles while I absolutely did drop status shotguns with U17, what is funny since they where, because of frame specific reasons, actually the better choice for me before that.

 

I seen nobody else using a prisma grakata in L100 sortis with extra armor(I do run it 3 times every single day) where it is actually the pinnacle of his own weapon class under this conditions, it is a niche weapon, it got quite a few flaws and it is not overpowered, because it only plays out it's full potential under certain conditions and with quite a few drawbacks. Status shotguns where on the same level before U17, while they are currently just fall flat on her face by failing to shoot quick enough(strun wraith) or base status chance(boar prime) to a point where even in situations that did favour them before U17, they make no sense to use now. This is the opinion of somebody that really likes status shotguns and can take any kind of drawback on them(like the comical range on the boar prime) if they would still produce desirable performance at high levels.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Djego27

[taiiat]

I pointed out multiple times that Hek\Tigris are way over the top, this was before the improved syndicate versions where available. I guess the only reason you see no complains about them is simply that Tonkor\synoid simulor are still way stronger and the tool of choice for most because of the ease of use.

 

I don't think Drakgoon or Sobek are OP, Sobek in fact should have a bit less of a crippling reload and Drakgoon a reasonable dps on uncharged shots for point blank multi target performance.

sorry, i didn't read most of it. skimmed the first sentence or two of each paragraph.

so a couple more notes to that post at the end.

 

Tonkor and Synoid idon'twanttoplaythegameulor are in the same boat too. way more raw numbers than deserved.

 

Sobek has more Damage than it deserves. i've mentioned before it deseves somewhere around 190, and cut the Reload to 1750-1800ms. that fits it's Archetype.

190 is slightly high but while several Shotguns are way Overpowered, i am okay with considering power shot Shotguns being similar in contention for base Damage as Sniper Rifles, just without the Crits.

 

Drakgoon should just be able to fire faster uncharged and to have less extreme spread, to cover that situation. as it shoots very slowly uncharged and the pellets basically all miss.

the Damage is overkill though.

 

- - - - - 

 

ofcourse you'd prefer 1.5sec for 8 shells. because that's too good to be true. just like basically anyone would rather have a million dollars rather than what's in their wallet.

having a Reload around 2 seconds in total for 8 shells and Sequential would be fair though. able to dump a lot of shells at once and Reload over time, or Reload one or two at a time and keep firing, but at a lower Rate of Fire than would otherwise have.

 

Boar Prime is a different story. the Weapon was ruined. you can't use it for Status AND do what you want/need to do in the game.

and it's not useful for Damage because it shoots slower and blah blah. i absolutely don't approve of the adjustments it got.

the Larger Magazine is even pointless because it shoots slower, you'll never use up that Magazine.

 

 

again, i don't balance things around Overpowered options.

applies to Soma and Boltor.P as well. Soma is too accurate when spooled up, and Boltor.P is by it's description, supposed to be a close range spray and pray. yet it's very accurate. it should have low Accuracy and/or Damage falloff on Projectiles.

 

and the Shotguns in question just having more Damage than they should.

[MechaKnight]

In a nutshell, gear balance has two sides. Gear needs to be comparable to other gear in the same slot. Warframe to warframe, weapon to weapon. The other side of the issue is balance of gear versus game. In Warframe's case, most gear shreds content instantly and the game loses the satisfying balance of challenge and reward, which eventually leads to reward nerfs since we can farm so easily.

 

It would be a great game if balance miraculously happened to everything instantly, but as usual whenever the devs balance on OP item, everyone rushes to the next and pleads that says overpowered too. If things keep doing the way they are we'll see void T5 and missions that start at insta-kill damage. Meanwhile drop tables would be thinned down to be more unrewarding.

Edited January 31, 2016 by MechaKnight

[Azamagon]

About the Strun's numerical strengths and whatnot, that's harder to balance, since indeed we don't know exactly what to balance around.

 

But an important factor too is the "feel" of a weapon, if it feels FUN. The reloadtime for the Strun Wraith is not FUN. If it reloaded 2 shells per sequence (thus 2,5 seconds for 10 shells), I don't think anyone would complain about it anymore, hopefully. I know I wouldn't :P

[Djego27]

stuff

I would suggest you take a look at everything I did put the time in to type down.

Sobek at 190 would be just a boar prime without status, what does not work even with a ton less spread. Even in a vacuum where hek/tigris do not exists there would be little reason to use it, since you just have a dps rifle with tons of drawbacks and less dps. With a 3s reload it would be quite nice as alternative to rifles.

The main problem of the drakgoon is not spread, it is damage that goes along with it when you need that spread(since you not shooting one target but a ton of them at once).

I would prefer 1.5s since dps is absolute the last stat you look at on status shotguns(nerf damage by all means, it does not matter on status shotguns), while proc/s is what counts. The hole fire while reloading is just a thing at low levels, it does mean nothing at levels where a status shotgun becomes useful, simply because you need a mag dump on heavy targets to soften them up, does not matter if it is L50, L100 or L200, the mechanic is literally the same plus a few rounds.The reload mechanic has little to do with it, it just does not work with a long reload, be it once per shell or as full magazine.

Boar prime suffers because it is a very niche weapon and the U17 changes took all the usability in that niche away from it. It has little to do with the damage, since in the end dps applied in game with it is so low that it hardly matters. It had 17k per second(compare that to 100k single shot with a vaykor hek on Ember)if all pellets connect(even at point blank, you will not archive that). Realistic you did look at a gun that did slightly over 1/2 of the dps a soma/boltor prime with a super short range and it was without 100% status just a massive waste of time. Taking it to the extreme with a blind rage Ember and arcanes I know it could be very good at high levels(much better then most people would give it credit for) but this is all very damage profile/frame specific and a thing of the past. As it stands it just deserves a single questions: "Why should I use it?" and I can not think of a reasonable answer to that, even knowing the thing inside out.

Status shotguns where never a dps problem, they archived a lot with actually comical low dps, being far more on the status side of things then status rifles that just use it to compensate for a bit lower dps(you will never see a red bar with a status rifle, since you will kill before that by dps, however it is the common thing for halve a magazine more on all status shotguns). They where fairly specific weapons, different to the vaykor hek that is just point and click face roll at high levels.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Djego27

[RealPandemonium]

The main problem is, it is only useful at the L100+ armor levels, even there a vaykor hek\Sancti tigris is still better. A status shotgun needs more shells per target(every kind of target, since the status comes at a big price of raw damage and the main strength of it is hitting the target with a massive stack of corrosive procs that takes a certain amount of that damage resistance away with every hit because of the broken armor scaling) then dps shotguns where the long reload just absolutely kills any kind of appeal it could have for this kind of content.

 

If you look at lower levels like L50, hek/trigris one hit bombards\heavy gunners, they reload faster, have no ammo issues, have not a lack in performance vs anything that doesn't have armor(hell the vaykor hek is the absolute best anti corpus shotgun with puncture, just because of how it scales in a pure toxic build) and no other major flaws. There is simply not a single situation where status shotguns like the boar prime/strun wraith are a real alternative to the vaykor hek or sancti tigris, leave alone the better choice since the nerfs in U17.

I was just pointing out where the complaints come from, since that poster didn't see where the problem comes in.  There is no question that the Strun Wraith is outclassed despite being the best status applicator because of the presence of other, massively overtuned options.  At this point the question becomes "make everything ridiculous?" or "nerf the ridiculous things and take a step back?"  

[Djego27]

I was just pointing out where the complaints come from, since that poster didn't see where the problem comes in.  There is no question that the Strun Wraith is outclassed despite being the best status applicator because of the presence of other, massively overtuned options.  At this point the question becomes "make everything ridiculous?" or "nerf the ridiculous things and take a step back?"  

 

Hek/Tigris do far to much damage and actually need more restrictive damage loss at falloff range to prevent them form being sniper rifles.

 

Then again this will not fix the issues of the strun wraith, simply because it doesn't work reasonable well with a reload speed of a dps shotgun while status shotguns need a ton more rounds for all smaller units and only have her uses at a point where you need to dump a full mag into every heavy target. A functional fix to the strun wraith(reload down to 1.5 with 8 rounds again) and the boar prime back to pre U17 stats including old damage falloff just aims at making them useful in her niche again. There can still be weapons that massively outshine them by just dps but as long as they work in her niche they have a place and are reasonable balanced, compared to now where they don't work sufficient at high levels against armor and provide no reason to be used anywhere else.