There can't be any "mandatory" mods for weapons

[(PSN) blackbeltdude7]

Over the weekend, Steve tweeted out some stuff about Damage 3.0 (checking "temperatures" as he called it):

I'm really glad that he's starting these kind of conversations with the community!

On the topic of what he tweeted though, I don't think  we can't have damage mods (and general DPS mods) just be "less potent," unfortunately. Maybe they've got something planned where somehow mods that increase DPS of weapons aren't going to feel mandatory, but considering all of the min-maxers in the game, any mods that increase damage output to any extent will likely become mandatory in most builds.

Any mods that increase damage and fire rate will always be staple mods in any weapon's build, because unlike warframes, the main function of a weapon is to cause damage. There's hardly any weapons that have a utility aspect to them (syndicate weapons, and weapons like the Sonicor are the only ones that come to mind). With warframes, adding more power is generally an optional thing, just because you might be playing a frame with no regard to power strength (to maximize the potential of another ability).

I think the devs know that people will be upset if they lose their max-rank serrations and ability to use dual shot mods, but keeping them around to any capacity doesn't fix the problem. 

Conclave's modding system is MUCH more balanced than PVE's (as it should be). But a lot of the weapons in PVP can be viable because they're about changing/skewing damage types, or sacrificing reload speed for magazine size. There's also no pure damage mods to add to anything.

 

So here's what I'm suggesting.

Yes, I think we need to remove any DPS mods from the modding pool. However, thanks to the way the end game is currently set up (infinity scaling enemies), we really can't remove the power that those mods bring from the game (it's just needed at this point). So let's just move all of those mods into a new system. For the sake of explaining it easier, I'll just call it an "Arms Mastery" system.

The Arms Mastery System would be a weapon system that you invest mod points in (still using fusion cores), but they affect things globally with "innate mods." For instance, Rifles have their own stats to build up, shotguns have their, secondaries, melee, and so on. It would probably look something like this:

• Arms Mastery System
  • Rifles
    • Serration
    • Speed Trigger
    • Split Chamber
    • Point Strike
    • Etc
  • Shotguns
    • Point Blank
    • Shotgun Spazz
    • Etc
  • Secondaries
    • Hornet Strike
    • Etc
  • Melee
    • Pressure Point
    • Etc

The player would select their weapon-type that they want to improve, and then select the "innate mod" of that weapon type, and then power them up. Plus, this way things like Primed mods are still useful, because you could add them to the pool of innate mods that weapons use. Things like status chance, critical chance, and critical damage should be here too. The idea would be because if we don't, it would be easy for them to become the next "mandatory" mods. 

Sure, potentially there could be balancing issues, but this really depends on what kind of new mods that would be released with the new modding system. If the problem is really about the lack of "build diversity," then the modding system for weapons needs to be targeted towards the idea of play style.

The current "mandatory" mods are mandatory because players can't really advance without them. The rank of a player's serration is a better indication of their level than their mastery rank is, because that's how progression through the game is really determined. So we might as well keep these mandatory mods, but let them play a different role in the game.

[phoenix1992]

It looks line an big pile of wasted time and development of the weapons we did so far. Not to mention the expenses... They should really thing trough how this should work and how they will compensate all the players that already have developed maxed serrations, primed point blanks and so on. 

[KnightCole]

No more one shotting?  For who?  Us vs the enemy?  or both?  Id much prefer both.

 

Also, they are going to nerf our damage mods?  I sure as S#&$ hope this comes with some nice nerfs for higher lvl mobs....cuz good lord...

[Fukushu]

11 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

No more one shotting?  For who?  Us vs the enemy?  or both?  Id much prefer both.

 

Also, they are going to nerf our damage mods?  I sure as S#&$ hope this comes with some nice nerfs for higher lvl mobs....cuz good lord...

From what I picked up on [DE]Steve's twitter, the "No more one-shotting" was mostly meant for us killing bosses, which could be good if we get more boss fights like Tyl Regor and what we've seen of the Kela De Thaym rework.

As for the changes to damage mods, I would personally love to see a complete rework of the current modding system, though I also agree with a lot of players' concerns when it comes to time and investment in perfecting builds for your weapons. If done well, this could bring a much needed change in the current end-game "meta", but if done poorly, a lot of players will understandably be upset.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Fukushu
grammatical error

[blaes]

as you said, any damage mod on a weapon is kind of mandatory. if you remove a damage mod from the game, players will just replace it by another one.

that's actually true for any stat increasing mod. no straight damage mod? players will fill their weapons with crit chance, multishot, etc. take those out of the game? welcome to mandatory status chances, reload speed, accurcy increase etc.

 

if you dont want any mandatory mods for weapons, you'll have to get rid of all mods that increase stats. the only ones left will be stances, changing the weapon's behavior without modifying stats.

 

good or bad? well, i dont know. but it sure would need a huge overall, and a lot of thought put in before screwing everything over.

[Bloodskll]

I think OP could be on to something and for the matter of lost mods compensate for those mods by giving the equivalent of those mods into experience for the new system

[Aeraxis]

Although I do appreciate the OP's intent to be open minded about damage 3.0 and offering suggestions. He is missing a massive part of what goes into min/maxing, the forma, resources, credits, and time spent earning the affinity for polarizing each weapon that has been optimized to output those tremendous numbers. This is definitely food for thought though. This is something that is very important to the game, and needs to be done, but it needs to be well thought out and executed with precision. I'm hoping to see more posts regarding this from the Dev's so the community is aware of what is to come and can offer a bit of insight from outside of the Think-Tank that is DE.

[(PSN) blackbeltdude7]

48 minutes ago, Aeraxis said:

He is missing a massive part of what goes into min/maxing, the forma, resources, credits, and time spent earning the affinity for polarizing each weapon that has been optimized to output those tremendous numbers

True, all the polarizing that has already been done, could seem in vain for some of these weapons, but I would hope that a new system like this would also bring new mods to help fill the gaps.

For example, mods that change the damage type would probably be V-polarities, and mods that change the element type could be bar-polarities. The shadow debt mods are a really good step in the right direction too, where you get stat boosts for meeting certain criteria. Those are still boosts, but they work, because the player has to activate them (play style).

Otherwise, the other things you mentioned (resources, credits, affinity grinding), that's just part of the game. Any time DE reworks a Warframe or introduces a really great augment, players can face the same dilemma of having to re-optimize their builds. That's just part of the game.

4 hours ago, blaes said:

that's actually true for any stat increasing mod. no straight damage mod? players will fill their weapons with crit chance, multishot, etc. take those out of the game? welcome to mandatory status chances, reload speed, accurcy increase etc.

Like I said, those mods also have to be part of the "innate mods" of the Arms Mastery System. If they contribute to DPS, then they have to be part of an innate system, otherwise (as you pointed out) they'd be the new mandatory mods.

[blaes]

4 hours ago, (PS4) blackbeltdude7 said:

Like I said, those mods also have to be part of the "innate mods" of the Arms Mastery System. If they contribute to DPS, then they have to be part of an innate system, otherwise (as you pointed out) they'd be the new mandatory mods.

my point is that the only mods that would be left are those that are only modifying the behaviour of weapons, and those are the stances. currently, that's the only thing that would be left.

i guess they could introduce some new mods that let us choose what elements we deal damage with, and their proportions, without modifying the damage, but apart from that? i don't see anything else.

[MillbrookWest]

There's always going to be "mandatory" mods as long as there is a mod system.

Getting rid of current mandatory mods does nothing, when the base system that bore the issue still remains. Damage will just get replaced with Utility - 'Primed Fast Hands' will become the new 'serration' just as an example.

The whole mod situation should be looked at, and re-evaluated. 

IMHO, in addition to removing the damage mods, all mods should go on the frame. The frame should be broken up into sections, and each section can only take certain mod types.

Example:

Head: 3 mod slots - Continuity, Flow etc.

Torso: 3 mod slots - Vitality, Steel fiber etc.

Arms: 5 mod slots - Fast hands, reach, casting speed etc.

Legs: 2 mod slots - Sprint speed, slide etc.

By no means an exhaustive idea on my part, but i don't believe in half arseing jobs, merely dropping damage mods solves nothing. The numbers above are just examples, but this opens up the possibility for other frames to have varied mod load outs. A trinity may have 6 head slots over a Rhino's 1.

Not a personal fan of the generic template which (if we're being honest) favours certain frames over others. The Banshee's and Limbo's of the world may be more useful if they had 2-3 extra mod slots over other frames, but weren't straight 'generic' slots that would evidently make them OP.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

See, I like oneshotting the boss. It's a goal in itself. I honestly hate tyl regor design even more than lecht krill.

To be honest they should scrap this rework. And add more different damage mods.

[Faustus]

My main problem is several of the damage/ multi-shot / mandatory mods are from the most expensive mods in game (16-11 space in no-melee weapons) so if they reduce then, what is going to happen? if they reduce the cost, well that's a lot of wasted formas, if the costs stays but are nerfed, well that's a lot of wasted formas. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Faustus

[ashrah]

i am not sure in future of wf anymore...after dmg 3.0 i  am sure lot ppl will leave game...after every update grind walls are incresed....i have all r10 maxed mods..i invaste lot of time making it..forming wepons 6 times....if we need reforma wepons again..or somthing stupid like that...i am done with game....

[Bloodskll]

For the forma solution DE could make a grace period reimbursing all your forma on all weapons and allowing them to be equipped without reducing level back down to zero, if someone misses the grace period they are given a set amount of gameplay time to redistribute forma as needed.

[Faustus]

1 minute ago, Bloodskll said:

For the forma solution DE could make a grace period reimbursing all your forma on all weapons and allowing them to be equipped without reducing level back down to zero, if someone misses the grace period they are given a set amount of gameplay time to redistribute forma as needed.

Over 20 weapons,,, and I only formaed the ones I like... is so much time invested because each one has at least 1 o more in then....

[Bloodskll]

2 minutes ago, Faustus said:

Over 20 weapons,,, and I only formaed the ones I like... is so much time invested because each one has at least 1 o more in then....

not sure what your trying to say but my main point for grace period is so people don't have to go get new forma because

A) theyre polarity slots don't much up with new build

or

B) they no longer need as many forma on weapon so forma is wasted

It would compensate for peoples time and/or money from farming forma, rushing build time, or straight up buying forma from the market

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 hours ago, Bloodskll said:

polarity slots don't match

forma is wasted

6 hours ago, ashrah said:

need reforma wepons again

6 hours ago, Faustus said:

 well that's a lot of wasted formas. 

 

See solutions here and here for Forma/Polarisation reworking, to allow a player to never be in a position where they've wasted Forma. Ever again. No matter how many new mods and balance changes happen, your Forma will only ever improve your options. No more 'overwriting' and therefore wasting existing polarities.

[Herosupport]

This is a subject that needs to be done with extreme care i wouldn't mind seeing the pure damage mods being removed from the game however a new system needs to be put in place to replace those mods and that would have to include changes to the way multi shot is done in warframe and these changes have to be done in ways that players wont mind being used against them.

Damage 3.0 just on example.

Rank of weapons now has more meaning a rank 30 weapon now deals 300% of base weapon damage. now 300% may not work for all the weapons however you need to take into account that the common multi shot mods used in practically every build boost the damage of the weapon by an additional percent and needs to be taken into consideration with the new system. along with primed point blank being the standard for damage increase for all shotguns to include Sweeper prime. 

Multi shot mods no longer increases weapon damage it now divides weapon damage giving each of the split shots their own chances to critically hit and apply status effects. DE this is the best way to handle multi shot with the fewest amount of changes to the existing game.

[Aeraxis]

I am more-so intrigued with the idea of serration being 'built in' to each weapon as it levels up to rank 30, (critical chance and status chance could also be done in this way). With that in place the conclave mods that convert damage to specific types would suit that system wonderfully. Also mods like the new Acolyte ones that are 'active' will also suit this system very well. Trade off mods like the corrupted mods will also be welcome, more accuracy for less fire rate, smaller mag for faster reload, etc. DE is heading in the right direction. I know after something like that though, all weapons would need to go back to the drawing board for balancing, Some weapons have stats that just simply out shine others in its category and mastery in every single way, removing weapon niches, which really should be how weapons are chosen to begin with, not just flat out stopping power, but more towards gameplay style.

This is something that should happen to all weapons, including melee.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Aeraxis
all weapons

[felixsylvaris]

I think that most obligatory weapon mods are these increasing damage overall (like Serration) and multishot. I cant imagine situacion when i would like more dmg to everything.

Making it build in is one option.

The other option is just nerf them. Give them much lower numbers so it will be just small buff, not essencial buff which we put on every weapon first. The reason is that sometimes we dont have good option for next mod, so just generally improving other mods is what we can do with left drain. Something like +30% dmg (instead of +160%)

 

[phoenix1992]

I am going to ask again, since I rather enjoy people ignoring that :

What will happen to the MODS we already did max?  To fully max serration is not cheap, easy or fast.  To gain Primed Point Blank and to max it even less so.  Please explain me how this removing this mods will be justified towards those players? 
One more extra question since I am starting to get so tired of this way of thinking : Just because new players do not have the capacity the max mods, or old players do not want to do this, they should be removed? This is pretty much BullS#&$.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2/23/2016 at 2:09 PM, Aeraxis said:

Although I do appreciate the OP's intent to be open minded about damage 3.0 and offering suggestions. He is missing a massive part of what goes into min/maxing, the forma, resources, credits, and time spent earning the affinity for polarizing each weapon that has been optimized to output those tremendous numbers. This is definitely food for thought though. This is something that is very important to the game, and needs to be done, but it needs to be well thought out and executed with precision. I'm hoping to see more posts regarding this from the Dev's so the community is aware of what is to come and can offer a bit of insight from outside of the Think-Tank that is DE.

I firmly hold, that DE should refund Formas with core modding changes (Like when they removed 2 Warframe Slots and made abilities innate rather than mods)

- On weapons/Warframes  that Formas were removed There is already an indicator of how many polarizations were applied (Gold Stars)

Players should be able to re-polarize slots without re-leveling upto the previous Gold Star limit.

 

Only thing I'm confused and worried about with No 1-shots is why? Overpowered weapons against low level Enemies should 1-shot (Along with reasonable Weapon types like Bow, Sniper, melee) 

-Are we not supposed to Stealth kill, any more? Because alerting the enemy with multiple hits defeats the purpose... Usually

As for Tenno(players) being 1-shotted:

It would be nice to not be instant killed while having full Energy and Quick-Thinking is up.

But if it is changed to where I can't be 1shot at all. (They might as well revert Rage + Quick-thinking to be an indefinite loop)

(Although perhaps they are planning on making Quick-Thinking innate along with a Shield-Gate; although Defy would need the Quick-Thinking disabled while Defy is active & New Mummy Frame sounds like he is a candidate for Provoked... so I am curious

 

As for Staple Weapon damage mods: damage only mods are there to occupy a slot.

Multi-shot is usually a Staple on Guns but weapons like Simulor or Castanas don't need/require Multi-shot. In the same way Primed Reach is not required for Glaive, Gun-blade, nor Covert Lethality 1 mod Dagger.

Crit or Status mods are more Weapon specific.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am going to ask again, since I rather enjoy people ignoring that :

What will happen to the MODS we already did max?  To fully max serration is not cheap, easy or fast.  To gain Primed Point Blank and to max it even less so.  Please explain me how this removing this mods will be justified towards those players? 
One more extra question since I am starting to get so tired of this way of thinking : Just because new players do not have the capacity the max mods, or old players do not want to do this, they should be removed? This is pretty much BullS#&$.

Primed Point Blank is your only real argument here - others will get turned into equivalent cores or possibly a Legendary Core for our maxed Serrations etc., if DE is feeling extra generous. PPB has the additional ducat/credit cost associated (ignoring trading plat for now, that's your own choice) that would have to be compensated for.

Real question is how far this will reach. We could see Point Blank being built into crit-oriented weapons (in which case, Primed Pistol Gambit is in question). Same for Crit Damage (and therefore Primed Ravage and Target Cracker are at risk). Nobody can claim those aren't mandatory mods on the weapons that use them - what's the last time you saw a Dread user without at least 100% crit chance? Or a Soma that doesn't crit?

 

I'm reserving my judgement until we get more information on where things are going.

[Me.Greedy]

i need a cover system if i can't kill them super fast, the enemy swarms are going to be pretty nasty if you can't one shot things.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

If the combat proven Braton does not take plenty of shots to drop the lowest enemies...

Or soma prime is at least half decent without any crit mods.

 

Seriously, the mods are what makes weapons even functional.

It's kind of shouting unfair when you are running around with a steel bar 
and tries to ban sharpening the steel bar into a blade because.

People who spend the time and effort polishing their weapons should be punished ?

Or is it only fair that DE should provide free sharpening service by giving those who are lazy a maxed out serration and heavy caliber ?

I would love that, but most likely not play the game much because there is no need to refine your equipment

 

There is no mandatory mod, you can take out the crit mods on soma prime, just that it is less efficient to kill
with that, just like trying to slash enemies to death with a blunt sword.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Ada_Wong_SG