Second Dream plothole? (thanks for the help so far)

[TARINunit9]

OK, let's review some of the details of the Second Dream: [obviously spoilers, why did you click on a link about plotholes if you needed to be warned about spoilers?]

Hunhow the Sentient glues several of his fragments to Stalker's body and gifts the vengeful revenant with "War", a sharpened, sentient fragment that directly links to Hunhow's thoughts. According to Lotus, such fragments allows Hunhow to enter the minds of those he links with, often forcefully, as he has tried to do against her. This teamup, between Stalker and Hunhow, is to find the fabled Tenno Reservoir and destroy it.

Also according to Lotus, Stalker already knows what the Reservoir is and where it is, as he has been there before. So, if we're taking things logically, either Hunhow can just read Stalker's mind and find out where the Reservoir is or Stalker can just tell Hunhow.

So, why don't they just go to the Reservoir right from the start?

Instead, Hunhow needs to steal the data from Lotus's mind. Why? Don't Stalker and Hunhow already have the location? It's not like anything was preventing Stalker from physically going there, as we see him do in the rest if the quest.

This, after some more scrutiny, throws into question whether or not the whole "Stalker is a Tenno gone rogue" plot point is valid. Partly because it comes right from Hunhow himself. I mean, why should I believe anything he says by this point? Not only does he not understand the difference between "Orokin" and "human", not only does he not know how a Warframe operates on any level more complex than "a Zariman kid can talk to it", but now he's laying out Stalker's history despite not actually knowing a single thing about Stalker's past in the first place? How is Hunhow supposed to know what Stalker is? Is he reading Stalker's memories? Obviously not, or he'd have known where the Reservoir was. Maybe the location of the Reservoir was faulty or faded in Stalker's mind? That would dictate that I can't trust anything else Hunhow dug out of the revenant's brain either

Edit#1:

2 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

It may have entered and left the void in the same location, but that doesn't mean it was in the same relative location in the void as it was in normal space. It entered and left the normal universe in the same general location but the door between could have been anywhere in the void. Tricky to explain.

I might buy this excuse, maybe

Edit#2:

28 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

Perhaps the Stalker himself didn't know the moon still existed

That would also make sense, hmm...

Edited March 2, 2016 by TARINunit9

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Are you forgetting when Lotus says "Seeing the reservoir made Stalker go insane" or something like that?

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, (XB1)A Frikn Grizzly said:

Are you forgetting when Lotus says "Seeing the reservoir made Stalker go insane" or something like that?

He would still know where it is

[LordCasimiro]

You are misinterpreting things. Stalker knows the truth about the Tenno, but he didn't know the location of the Resevoir.

He knew about the warframe being puppets, but he didn't know the body location nor did Hunhow, that's why we had to go through all that mess. If he did know, he would have gone there from the start. Lotus' reaction indicates that knowledge of the location was hers and hers alone

[AdunSaveMe]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

He would still know where it is

If he knew, he would know where it is on the moon. He wouldn't know where it is in the void.

Edited March 2, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

If he knew, he would know where it is on the moon. He wouldn't know where it is in the void.

I fail to see how that actually changes anything. Would you care to explain your logic please?

[LordCasimiro]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

If he knew, he would know where it is on the moon. He wouldn't know where it is in the void.

Not to mention the moon was hidden. Even if he, by some reason knew that the Resevoir was on the moon, he wouldn't have means to locate it beforehand

[Mcl_Blue]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I fail to see how that actually changes anything. Would you care to explain your logic please?

If Stalker is on the moon, he can find the room where the Reservoir is. But he doesn't know where, in the Void, the moon is.

Imagine if you put something inside a box, and then you misplace the box. You know that the thing you want is inside a box, you even know what the box looks like, but you don't know where the box is.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Mcl_BlueMadness
Box

[AdunSaveMe]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I fail to see how that actually changes anything. Would you care to explain your logic please?

I know my way around my house, but if my house was teleported to some random place on the planet, that information would be useless without knowing where the house is. The moon was moved to the void. He would need to know where in the void it was moved to.

But that's not the case anyway, as explained by LordCasimiro.

Edited March 2, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[TARINunit9]

Just now, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

If Stalker is on the moon, he can find the room where the Reservoir is. But he doesn't know where, in the Void, the moon is.

By my understanding of how that scene plays out, the Moon wasn't so much as "moved" to the Void as it was "Rifted, Limbo-style" to the Void. As in, if there's a point that corresponds to the Earth in realspace, and a point that corresponds to Earth in the Void, the Moon was just moved from the realspace co-ord to the Void co-ord

Assuming I'm correct about that (I have no idea if that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but looking at how the Tenno moved the Moon back out of the Void I don't have any reason to assume otherwise at the moment) then Stalker would have found the Moon pretty much right off the bat, even by accident.

[Mcl_Blue]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

By my understanding of how that scene plays out, the Moon wasn't so much as "moved" to the Void as it was "Rifted, Limbo-style" to the Void. As in, if there's a point that corresponds to the Earth in realspace, and a point that corresponds to Earth in the Void, the Moon was just moved from the realspace co-ord to the Void co-ord

Assuming I'm correct about that (I have no idea if that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but looking at how the Tenno moved the Moon back out of the Void I don't have any reason to assume otherwise at the moment) then Stalker would have found the Moon pretty much right off the bat, even by accident.

I can't confirm either way, but we did have a whole "find the moon" mission... that's gotta count for something.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Mcl_BlueMadness

[LordCasimiro]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

By my understanding of how that scene plays out, the Moon wasn't so much as "moved" to the Void as it was "Rifted, Limbo-style" to the Void. As in, if there's a point that corresponds to the Earth in realspace, and a point that corresponds to Earth in the Void, the Moon was just moved from the realspace co-ord to the Void co-ord

Assuming I'm correct about that (I have no idea if that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but looking at how the Tenno moved the Moon back out of the Void I don't have any reason to assume otherwise at the moment) then Stalker would have found the Moon pretty much right off the bat, even by accident.

The thing is, if it was easy like that, Stalker would have been able to do that alone without needing to seek Hunhow's help. From these three one is possible

1- Stalker did know about the truth of the Tenno, but didn't know the location fo the Resevoir was in the moon;

2- Stalker knew it was the moon, but was unable to locate it;

3- Stalker hesitated over killing the true body of the Tenno. He hesitated during the quest once the player discovers the truth, so that could have hapened

[AdunSaveMe]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

By my understanding of how that scene plays out, the Moon wasn't so much as "moved" to the Void as it was "Rifted, Limbo-style" to the Void. As in, if there's a point that corresponds to the Earth in realspace, and a point that corresponds to Earth in the Void, the Moon was just moved from the realspace co-ord to the Void co-ord

Assuming I'm correct about that (I have no idea if that's a valid interpretation of that scene, but looking at how the Tenno moved the Moon back out of the Void I don't have any reason to assume otherwise at the moment) then Stalker would have found the Moon pretty much right off the bat, even by accident.

It may have entered and left the void in the same location, but that doesn't mean it was in the same relative location in the void as it was in normal space. It entered and left the normal universe in the same general location but the door between could have been anywhere in the void. Tricky to explain.

[TARINunit9]

9 minutes ago, LordCasimiro said:

The thing is, if it was easy like that, Stalker would have been able to do that alone without needing to seek Hunhow's help. From these three one is possible

1- Stalker did know about the truth of the Tenno, but didn't know the location fo the Resevoir was in the moon;

2- Stalker knew it was the moon, but was unable to locate it;

3- Stalker hesitated over killing the true body of the Tenno. He hesitated during the quest once the player discovers the truth, so that could have hapened

This also tripped me up. The thing I'm assuming is that Stalker didn't have the courage to try until he met Hunhow

10 minutes ago, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

I can't confirm either way, but we did have a whole "find the moon" mission... that must mean something.

Except both Lotus and Stalker don't need to find it. They both know exactly which portal leads to the Moon's observation platform

[321agemo]

1. Hunhow doesnt know location of reservoir as evident of needing to read the lotus's mind.

2. Stalker had his mind go insane when he witness the reservoir. Not only that, it would very well be possible that he witness it BEFORE the displacement of the moon.

3. Even if the stalker knows its in the void, the void is a big place and according to the defense system located inside that orokin tower, it disrupts its location+communication so even our liset can't find it.

4. The void is a place that can bend logic and reasoning.  

[Katinka]

22 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

It may have entered and left the void in the same location, but that doesn't mean it was in the same relative location in the void as it was in normal space. It entered and left the normal universe in the same general location but the door between could have been anywhere in the void. Tricky to explain.

Yeah, I would expect it to be incredibly difficult to find something in "the hellspace where our science and reason failed".

[Kaotyke]

19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

 

Except both Lotus and Stalker don't need to find it. They both know exactly which portal leads to the Moon's observation platform

Lotus WOULD know, of course.

Stalker go the information from Hunhow after he read her mind

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, 321agemo said:

4. The void is a place that can bend logic and reasoning.  

Just now, Katinka said:

Yeah, I would expect it to be incredibly difficult to find something in "the hellspace where our science and reason failed".

There's a thing that bugs me about this, though it's a much smaller nag than everything else:

The portal that Lotus uses to confirm the Moon is still in its proper place in the Void seemingly hasn't changed over the centuries. How exactly is Lotus ensuring that kind of consistent synchronization?

[Noabettiet]

It might be the case that the lotus hidden the reservoir after the stalker witnessing it.

By occasion, it ended up in the vast void, in which also happens to be poison to her kind. But i don't believe she'd had done it, so that the sentient wouldn't be able to harm it, since she did express surprise for their return. 

[321agemo]

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

There's a thing that bugs me about this, though it's a much smaller nag than everything else:

The portal that Lotus uses to confirm the Moon is still in its proper place in the Void seemingly hasn't changed over the centuries. How exactly is Lotus ensuring that kind of consistent synchronization?

The void tower. Its protecting it. Also the defense system inside the moon. We had to disable them in order to force the moon out of the void.

Edit: just to add, the stalker didn't go straight to the moon but  orokin tower THEN the moon.

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by 321agemo

[Katinka]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

There's a thing that bugs me about this, though it's a much smaller nag than everything else:

The portal that Lotus uses to confirm the Moon is still in its proper place in the Void seemingly hasn't changed over the centuries. How exactly is Lotus ensuring that kind of consistent synchronization?

Probably something to do with the Void Compasses that we reactivate to stop Stalker causing a void collapse or the Pendula we then destroy to cause it to shift back out of void space.

[ScorpDK]

I am going on a limb here, but...

How do we reach Orokin Towers and Derelicts? We require keys that open the way there.

The grineer crafted a Torsion beam to forcefully open a path to the void, using a key.

You can imagine the same applies to the Stalker. He cannot simply go there by knowing where it is, the Void doesn't simply open itself. And he can't simply "tell" Hunhow where it is, as Hunhow himself is both afraid of the void, and cannot simply open a gate to it on a whim without knowing the specific data that is encoded into the keys and Lotus' memory.

[TARINunit9]

11 minutes ago, ScorpDK said:

I am going on a limb here, but...

How do we reach Orokin Towers and Derelicts? We require keys that open the way there.

The grineer crafted a Torsion beam to forcefully open a path to the void, using a key.

You can imagine the same applies to the Stalker. He cannot simply go there by knowing where it is, the Void doesn't simply open itself. And he can't simply "tell" Hunhow where it is, as Hunhow himself is both afraid of the void, and cannot simply open a gate to it on a whim without knowing the specific data that is encoded into the keys and Lotus' memory.

This depends on whether or not Stalker either A) has a Landing Craft of his own, in which case he can just fly to the Moon (just like we did during the quest), or B) uses the Void to do his signature teleport (you know, when his death mark activates) in which case he can just teleport to the Moon

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Hunhow needed the Stalker to carry out his plans to destroy the Tenno. He knew of their secrets, but played a gambit to his daughter that he was oblivious to the presence or whereabouts of the Moon, where the Reservoir was located.

This in turn led to a fragment of Hunhow being discovered, and touched by a Tenno. The Lotus, said herself she was able to see the Stalker, through Hunhow... Because Hunhow's presence was inside the War, the sword bestowed on the Stalker by Hunhow. This let him commence a psuedo-infiltration of his daughter's mind, and led him to discover the location of the Reservoir. What he was after all along.

The rest is pretty easy to explain, and there is still quite a bit we don't know about Hunhow or the Stalker... and just what let the Stalker to his hesitant behavior during the Second Dream. 

My theory, as off or as untrue as it may sound, is this:

The Stalker, strolled upon the Reservoir on a complete accident, and was enlightened about what he really was. This shocked him, and most likely brought upon his madness. The Lotus most likely moved the Reservoir after that, or during the incidental war between the Sentients and Orokin thereafter, as it is revealed in the Stalker's lore that he was existent before the fall of the Empire.

Perhaps, in some way the Stalker only wants to know what he is. When it was revealed to him that he was no more than a child in a chamber, controlling a metal and flesh suit, almost like a game... (hehe 4th wall) what do you think he would've thought first? What comes to my mind is: is my whole existence a lie?

Pretty cool stuff in my opinion, and so far... with the way the lore is going... I assume we will see quite a bit more about these few characters very soon. (Sounds like Ballas is up next though, and that's awesome to say the least.)

Sorry for this big post, I just like discussing lore and stuff... even if my observations may be inaccurate or biased. :)

 

[ScorpDK]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

This depends on whether or not Stalker either A) has a Landing Craft of his own, in which case he can just fly to the Moon (just like we did during the quest), or B) uses the Void to do his signature teleport (you know, when his death mark activates) in which case he can just teleport to the Moon

If the loot is anything to go by, Stalker has a Scimitar Landing craft, due to the skin you can get for it from him, iirc.