Lotus has taken a step back

[RakuyoExcelsior]

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

"Tenno, are you abandoning this battle? Return to your objective or I will have Ordis extract you."

Wow, I never play archwing stuff but this is brutal. The Tenno are the most powerful force in the system right now. I think she wants to protect herself more than she actually cares for the Tenno.

[Gaurdian1123]

Just now, RakuyoExcelsior said:

Wow, I never play archwing stuff but this is brutal. The Tenno are the most powerful force in the system right now. I think she wants to protect herself more than she actually cares for the Tenno.

I think she is growing a army

[Shoelip]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

I don't believe he did. I think you're referring to this comment:

IMHO this is not about transference, it's giving a in-word explanation to the Tenno's ability to hear past events due to some kind of "void imprint" of important events. Which is good as it means that the Second dream reveals of Margulis and Ballas are considered in-game knowledge not just an atmospheric 4th wall breach.

 

Right, that's what it was.  He kinda starts to mention the somatic link, but fails to name it properly.  How does he know anything about that?

[BornWithTeeth]

2 hours ago, Shinigami_Greed said:

I think I need a laugh track every time I see a fellow tenno villify the Lotus.

 

I think folks want the Lotus to be the villain of the piece. It's kinda strange. My comment on it in a similar thread was that it's become a cliché in cartoons and video games, the mentor figure inevitable either dies in the first act, or betrays the hero and turns out to be the villain. The alternate route, where the mentor is genuinely doing their best but just plain screws up sometimes, is apparently shocking to people, and some players just can't accept it.

[Shoelip]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

I think folks want the Lotus to be the villain of the piece. It's kinda strange. My comment on it in a similar thread was that it's become a cliché in cartoons and video games, the mentor figure inevitable either dies in the first act, or betrays the hero and turns out to be the villain. The alternate route, where the mentor is genuinely doing their best but just plain screws up sometimes, is apparently shocking to people, and some players just can't accept it.

Mistakes aren't dramatic!

[Blakrana]

Soma refers to the body distinct from the mind, soul or psyche in this context more like than not. It might be that for the Inaros canopic vessels, Baro deduced it was some Tenno resonance with those objects that was causing the voices, hence terming it as a Somatic trait. Though he clearly hasn't got a real idea and is just throwing out words in the vague hope they'll describe what he's experiencing adequately enough.

Baro just wouldn't have a cause to know, or even care, about the Somatic link as a factor of Transference.

[Gaurdian1123]

1 minute ago, Blakrana said:

Soma refers to the body distinct from the mind, soul or psyche in this context more like than not. It might be that for the Inaros canopic vessels, Baro deduced it was some Tenno resonance with those objects that was causing the voices, hence terming it as a Somatic trait. Though he clearly hasn't got a real idea and is just throwing out words in the vague hope they'll describe what he's experiencing adequately enough.

Baro just wouldn't have a cause to know, or even care, about the Somatic link as a factor of Transference.

eh

[Kaotyke]

23 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

I think folks want the Lotus to be the villain of the piece. It's kinda strange. My comment on it in a similar thread was that it's become a cliché in cartoons and video games, the mentor figure inevitable either dies in the first act, or betrays the hero and turns out to be the villain. The alternate route, where the mentor is genuinely doing their best but just plain screws up sometimes, is apparently shocking to people, and some players just can't accept it.

Which is annoying. Some people say Lotus is incompetent for making those mistakes... But how the would the plot move forward without them?

Its like we having a book with: "In a distant land, a great King lived a long and healthy life with his Queen and Sons/Daughters and the Kingdoom prospered for ages to come. The End."

Who would read something like that?! There is no interesting story without any sort of conflcit.

[Kukukatchoo]

I appreciate everyone's rebuttals and responses! Thank you all uwu*

I understand that the quests don't have a true relation. I worked with the assumption that since Sands of Inaros was developed second it could be considered second chronologically in some way. I don't remember the entire script, but if @Shoelip is right then I guess the extrapolation is true this time!

Quote

Edit: There has been a bit more discussion about Baro's quote that I forgot to go back to. My two cents: Baro may have spoke not knowing what the somatic link was, so if the player hadn't done the Second Dream yet they would be in his shoes: using the word for it's literal definition. For the players that have done the quest it's an implied reference, sort of like the devs speaking to them rather than Baro??

Ah, you're right, @NinthAria! Thank you for pointing this out. The only reason I'd say SoI differs is because it's directly related to Tenno history (given the flashbacks) and the others aren't. Given how directly Lotus was involved in the history we've learned so far, maybe she thought it was better to sit this one out deliberately? (sn: Limbo's quest is all about a warframe obviously, but the quest itself is mostly just Ordis doing math, right? I haven't finished it, but that's what I've seen so far. So it doesn't have the weight of the voice in SoI.)
In the end, though, this quest does boil down to "we were helping a friend," much like A Man of Few Words, so it makes sense that she didn't get involved if she didn't need to. I feel like she normally would have liked to comment on something so heavily related to a Warframe, though.

@Horaciozhao My current theory is that she developed that human form and plugged her consciousness into it to better represent her mother fantasy.

2 hours ago, Shinigami_Greed said:

I think I need a laugh track every time I see a fellow tenno villify the Lotus.

Will this work? 

@BornWithTeeth I think you're absolutely right! It's like... a group mentality. Once they recognize a trope they want to force it out wherever they can, even in places it doesn't necessarily exist!

Edited March 7, 2016 by Eaaser

[BornWithTeeth]

It's a no-win situation with folks who insist that the Lotus is evil. No matter what happens, they'll have something to complain about.

 

If the Lotus does everything perfectly and all problems are neatly solved, it's boring. If she can take care of problems/quests all by herself, players will complain that she's too powerful, that she doesn't need the Tenno, and the story makes them redundant. If there are problems which she needs the Tenno to solve, she's evil for 'using' us.

 

If the Lotus has vulnerabilities which the enemies of the Tenno can use to attack her, then she's a liability and we should get rid of her. If she's impervious and cannot be attacked, then that removes a vector for conflict in the story, and also removes conflict from her as a character in her own right i.e. boring.

 

People complain that the Lotus doesn't share the results of Spy and Interception missions with the Tenno in the form of a datastream. If she did, people would complain about how they hate the fact that she deluges us in 'useless' information. Besides which....where do think she gets the information for Alerts?

 

The Lotus is a Sentient. Some people will forever insist that she is evil and must be killed, for being a Sentient. If instead she were just some person who built an information network, managed to re-activate the Tenno, and get us up and running, without the 'Natah' connection at all, people would then respond by insisting that she's just a nobody and that the Tenno shouldn't be beholden to her at all.

 

The more it goes on, the more it looks like people just want the Lotus to be the villain, and refuse to accept any other state of affairs.

[Kaisty]

2 hours ago, Kao-Snake said:

Which is annoying. Some people say Lotus is incompetent for making those mistakes... But how the would the plot move forward without them?

Its like we having a book with: "In a distant land, a great King lived a long and healthy life with his Queen and Sons/Daughters and the Kingdoom prospered for ages to come. The End."

Who would read something like that?! There is no interesting story without any sort of conflcit.

Conflict does not have to come with a characters incompetence, in fact it still can occur and go bad even with all the preparation in the world.

If we take your example into account, just because the Kingdom and it's rulers prospered does not mean all other lands are doing the same. Some of their conflicts could boil over into the peaceful lands no matter what the King and his military might try to prevent.

Take the Relays for example:

Natah built them with her connections, but left them out in the open and within view of the planets/moons that are in front of. No proper defenses, no cloaking tech, nothing but relying on Tenno to protect them. Formorians show up = many get blown up. Had Natah built them up with: proper defenses (main guns, smaller turrents, shielding), some cloaking tech (so it can be in front of the planets without being seen from the ground), and relying on more than the Tenno; they could still have the threat of them being blown up because a nonstop attack on an installation is a war of Attrition. Cloaking tech and shields could have been sabotaged by infiltrators, thus allowing the Grineer to see the Relays and send their Fomorians. Said infiltrators could have snuck on board a few of the Syndicate ships, so we wouldn't know where they came from.

In fact, that is exactly what we had with the Formorian event, players were getting the items and then getting bored with the whole "Farm for resources, spend them on a key, watch as key gets used up and hope you did enough damage to survive and get your token. Rinse and repeat." So while we may have won the Formorian battle, the Grineer won the war by wearing the Tenno down enough that we stopped caring about all the relays and just let a good chunk go kaboom.

5 hours ago, Shinigami_Greed said:

I think I need a laugh track every time I see a fellow tenno villify the Lotus.

3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

I think folks want the Lotus to be the villain of the piece. It's kinda strange. My comment on it in a similar thread was that it's become a cliché in cartoons and video games, the mentor figure inevitable either dies in the first act, or betrays the hero and turns out to be the villain. The alternate route, where the mentor is genuinely doing their best but just plain screws up sometimes, is apparently shocking to people, and some players just can't accept it.

I think I need a groan track for every time I see one bring up "DE said she is good, just like the Tenno" when we know that if given the chance, we would burn/blowup/torture pixelated Orphans and orphanages if it meant we get some sweet digital shiny bits. We are only good because DE keeps us on the railroad tracks of being good. If they really want to see if players are actually as "good" as they think we are, throw out a couple of "temptation" tests where we could get some new stuff (as a community) while sullying our rep.....or our Tenno reputation can remain pristine like unused armor, but the items are forever removed from the game with the only reference is a block in the codex to remind us what we chose to give up.

As for folks wanting Natah to be a villain.....her faults are very villain like:

Why would you build relays outside of the enemy bases with no defenses built in or on whatsoever?

Why didn't you keep a backup of history (especially the parts where the Tenno went on our Orokin killing spree) or put in more defenses of our "hidden base" on the moon? You would think there would be a few frames on the moon able to give assistance if needed.

Why put the Tenno and Warframes into storage? We killed off the orokin elite and it wasn't like the Grineer or Corpus could hunt us down and wipe us out back then?

How could you not know your fellow Sentients were still alive? Even though she was undercover, she should have checked with a followup after wiping out the Orokin.

Why did She just leave Warframes all over the sol system instead of locking them away in vaults on the moon or someplace that she could keep even close eye on them without the Grineer or Corpus getting a hold of them from the get go? Valkyr, Mesa, and others could have still be captured during a mission being sent out , instead of the alternative of "Corpus found frame, tinkered with frame = Now you got to go get frame.

In the end, Natah acts like she is good or cares for us but the fact remains that if she wasn't sterile, we would have been killed long time ago. She is basically the crazy cat lady of space and we are her cats. So far, we still don't know the full details as to why we were put into storage, why our past is forgotten (amnesia from being frozen is very suspicious as well) , or why she didn't keep some of us outside of storage to keep this so called "balance" in order.

Now I will admit that DE probably didn't think about most of these issues when they started out and they are just adding as they go along, but at the same time it leaves plot holes here and there once the newer things are added.

[Deshiel]

So people now think about warframe when they shower huh. Dayum, guess I am less of a fan than I thought. Wonder which warframe will come to my mind when I start rubbin soap on my chest.

[AutoPhox]

I think its nice that other characters are getting some game time. It helps fill the void...

(im not apologizing for that joke)

[Kaotyke]

14 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

If we take your example into account, just because the Kingdom and it's rulers prospered does not mean all other lands are doing the same. Some of their conflicts could boil over into the peaceful lands no matter what the King and his military might try to prevent.

And you missed the point.

16 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

Take the Relays for example:

Conflict. And yes, a LOT of us are wondering that. Maybe the Void Cloak cant be used because it has terrible effects on the non-Tenno? It IS using Void energy to warp it out of existence, who knows what it could do to the civis. The Relays are colonies, not battleships. Defences would be good. But we dont know how strong is the Fomorian's defences. But we know it has the firepower to destroy capital ships in 1 hit.

17 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

Why would you build relays outside of the enemy bases with no defenses built in or on whatsoever?

Why didn't you keep a backup of history (especially the parts where the Tenno went on our Orokin killing spree) or put in more defenses of our "hidden base" on the moon? You would think there would be a few frames on the moon able to give assistance if needed.

 

We dont know the full story. As far as we know: there were still people inside the Moon when it was send to the Void. What happened to them? Dead or became the whisps we see around. And it could have been send a hurry. It was the more of a research lab of the Orokin, very deep into the System. I doubt they installed something like the Neural Sentry there. Hory chet, you say "hidden base" as if no one but her knew the Moon still existed. and after what happened to Stalker? "Go mad with the revelation"? I doubt she would risk it.

28 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

Why put the Tenno and Warframes into storage? We killed off the orokin elite and it wasn't like the Grineer or Corpus could hunt us down and wipe us out back then?

The Grineer were raising, the Corpus faction didnt exist. Would you condem another because of what they might do in the future? And what would the Tenno do back then? Every person had a reason to hate the Tenno, even when they were deployed and called allies people had thoughts of turning on them (Mag Prime Codex)

30 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

How could you not know your fellow Sentients were still alive? Even though she was undercover, she should have checked with a followup after wiping out the Orokin.

Thats the thing with ANY competent person who sends undercover agents: you dont tell them everything. As far as we could tell she thought Hunhow was dead and was suprised when she saw the Occulyst: Her father was alive and she wouldnt know unless you scanned the Occulyst in Uranus, then we find that Tyl is digging something there. Something old: the Sentient. Knowing he was alive and Tyl was digging him up... Reminds me of an old trope: "No one could have survived that!", they just did. She could have bombed the place kingdom to come (Tyl had to dig to get to him after all), thought it did the job... but it didnt.

38 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

Why did She just leave Warframes all over the sol system instead of locking them away in vaults on the moon or someplace that she could keep even close eye on them without the Grineer or Corpus getting a hold of them from the get go? Valkyr, Mesa, and others could have still be captured during a mission being sent out , instead of the alternative of "Corpus found frame, tinkered with frame = Now you got to go get frame.

Could she get to the Moon? No. Stalker go crazy with the revelation? She didnt want to risk it some or all going through the same thing.

39 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

In the end, Natah acts like she is good or cares for us but the fact remains that if she wasn't sterile, we would have been killed long time ago. She is basically the crazy cat lady of space and we are her cats. So far, we still don't know the full details as to why we were put into storage, why our past is forgotten (amnesia from being frozen is very suspicious as well) , or why she didn't keep some of us outside of storage to keep this so called "balance" in order.

But she was sterile and that made the game possible.

And by saying all that, you just proved his point:

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

If the Lotus does everything perfectly and all problems are neatly solved, it's boring. If she can take care of problems/quests all by herself, players will complain that she's too powerful, that she doesn't need the Tenno, and the story makes them redundant. If there are problems which she needs the Tenno to solve, she's evil for 'using' us.

 

[(PSN)JT-Come-Lately]

11 hours ago, Horaciozhao said:

I'm still dwelling on why she looks human shape

I thought the Second Dream heavily implied that :

I think this was shot down in the first Devstream this year but that's my thought-cannon until they say otherwise. 

Spoiler

"Natah" was sent to infiltrate the Orokin and somehow perhaps targeted Marguilis (sp?) because Marguilis would have the biggest axe to grind against her executioners and want to see them pay for their ruthlessness against the children of 10-Zero. But rather than Natah encouraging Marguilis' anger against the Orokin she was instead pacified by Maguilis' love of the Tenno and saw the error of her and the Sentient ways. So they merged to become The Lotus as we know her and hijacked the Transference project to repurpose the Warframe's as agents of justice(???) and balance out the power vacuum besieging the Solar System.

 

Also

 

Quote

 

seriously, i see Lotus as a savior and mentor of the Tenno, not a villain.  She needs a bit of diet, but other than that, she's good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BLASPHEMER!!! BLASPHEMER I SAY !!!

Edited March 7, 2016 by (PS4)JT-Come-Lately

[Kaotyke]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Solomon__Grundy9 said:

Interesting how Inaros was described as only being "broken" and not completely destroyed or thrown across space, like Mirage or Limbo were when they died. I think we would all agree that when we die during a mission our warframe is also "broken" so, it begs the question: why was Inaros not revived?

Could this potentially be Lotus disciplining a Tenno for being rebellious and putting himself at risk to save those who were weak? I think it's definitely a possibility.

A theory I have is that in the begining, there was only 1 Tenno for each Warframe or the Tenno were only allowed to have 1 Warframe in the Orokin Era.

It is also possible that this happened before Lotus came to the System. Its very obvious who the "Golden Skymen" were.

Maybe we are witnessing the first Tenno who rebelled? On "Why they did not just pull the plug on the Tenno rebelling and stop the Warframe"? No idea.

But then again... the Orokin are not know for having "common sense". Maybe its because they though themselves above the "common"? No i'm not being sarcastic, at this point I might even believe that.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Kao-Snake

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Solomon__Grundy9 said:

Also I'm pretty sure Inaros' death thus happened a long time after this, most likely after being put into the Second Dream, and thus the Lotus would be there to be a disciplinarian.

Possible. Damnit, the Sandstorm is filling the hole where the Lore we are trying to dig up is!

Spoiler

I blame Baro.

 

[SilentMobius]

2 hours ago, Kaisty said:

I think I need a groan track for every time I see one bring up "DE said she is good, just like the Tenno" when we know that if given the chance, we would burn/blowup/torture pixelated Orphans and orphanages if it meant we get some sweet digital shiny bits. We are only good because DE keeps us on the railroad tracks of being good. If they really want to see if players are actually as "good" as they think we are, throw out a couple of "temptation" tests where we could get some new stuff (as a community) while sullying our rep.....or our Tenno reputation can remain pristine like unused armor, but the items are forever removed from the game with the only reference is a block in the codex to remind us what we chose to give up.

You're conflating the players out-of-character motivation with the in-character motivations of the Tenno. Of course we-the-player are motivated by shiny things, we're playing a computer game in our leisure time, the whole game is one massive "shiny thing". That is completely different to the in-world motivations of the characters, of course DE keep us "railroaded" because that is the story that is being told, we are the Tenno, we get some latitude in how we want to be the Tenno but only within the boundaries of the story DE are giving us, where we, the Tenno are the "good guys" by word-of-god.

The Lotus is our guide/narrator/voice-of-the-game-mechanism because the game needs something like that and because the story defines her as such. We-the-player have no choice but to play along, our characters play along because The Lotus is their guide and that is how our Tenno feel regardless of the opinion of the player... A good player adjusts their character to the story to make the whole thing more enjoyable for everyone, a bad player rails against the story because they want to feel more special than anyone else.

Some people just love to rebel against anything they perceive as "authority" regardless of the situation.

Edited March 7, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Kukukatchoo]

BornWIthTeeth lays down the freagin' law on Lotus analysis. 10/10

2 hours ago, Deshiel said:

So people now think about warframe when they shower huh. Dayum, guess I am less of a fan than I thought. Wonder which warframe will come to my mind when I start rubbin soap on my chest.

shh, now I'm embarrassed <3c

Keep those shower thoughts in line, Tenno.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

I love how the woman-thing that saved all of your lives, betraying her own kind to protect you, is the one you all see as the villain.

[SilentMobius]

57 minutes ago, Kao-Snake said:

A theory I have is that in the begining, there was only 1 Tenno for each Warframe or the Tenno were only allowed to have 1 Warframe in the Orokin Era.

It is also possible that this happened before Lotus came to the System. Its very obvious who the "Golden Skymen" were.

Maybe we are witnessing the first Tenno who rebelled? On "Why they did not just pull the plug on the Tenno rebelling and stop the Warframe"? No idea.

But then again... the Orokin are not know for having "common sense". Maybe its because they though themselves above the "common"? No i'm not being sarcastic, at this point I might even believe that.

We assume that the Tenno were on the moon the whole time. However our Liset is old, it had been stripped by the Grineer ages hence and yet it's paired orbiter had a transference chair in it? To me it seems as though the Tenno-body-in-orbiter was something that the Orokin came up with, something that may well have been used during the Old War.

While I'm not suggesting it is the most likely conclusion I'd say a possible explanation is that the Tenno operated from their ships. After the Tenno rebellion the Lotus took them all to Luna to keep them safe, all either without the Tenno knowing or as something they forgot while in "cryo"

Hence it's possible for Tenno to have rebelled, hidden (Stalker) and all manner of other things that wouldn't make sense in all tenno were alwasy on the moon before the events of the Second Dream 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

It would be interesting if players had some Tenno civilian populations to defend... maybe we should invade Earth and drive the odd clones out. :P  

then we could defend Tenno settlements and expand... we could use our tenno characters and wander around interacting with the Tenno civilian populations.  

This would put us in the role of warriors and not mercenaries 

Edited March 7, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt
more info

[Kaisty]

47 minutes ago, (XB1)A Frikn Grizzly said:

I love how the woman-thing that saved all of your lives, betraying her own kind to protect you, is the one you all see as the villain.

You do remember that had she not been sterile, we would all be dead. It is less of a "saved the Tenno because I care" and more of a "can't have kids, might as well adopt these living weapons." situation. She didn't do it for our sake, just to sate her greed for a "family".

[(PSN)robotwars7]

16 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

Although chronologically Sands of Inaros released after The Second Dream, the two Quests have no relation. To a player that starts the game now, it seems likely they'll probably complete Inaros before 2nd Dream.

That is to say, Sands of Inaros is just a 'side quest' (Baro's side quest, specifically) while Second Dream is part of the 'main story'.

this. the "campaign" goes Tutorial levels > Natah > Second Dream. everything else is really just a side quest for new gear (Warframes, Kubrows etc.). it'll be very interesting to see what happens next for the Tenno. will the Sentients attack us? only time will tell...

[BornWithTeeth]

10 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

You do remember that had she not been sterile, we would all be dead. It is less of a "saved the Tenno because I care" and more of a "can't have kids, might as well adopt these living weapons." situation. She didn't do it for our sake, just to sate her greed for a "family".

That's not actually all that relevant. Loads of people adopt. Lots of those people do so because they can't have biological kids, and they want a family. Does that somehow render their adoption illegitimate? DO their kids feel less loved?