Is Saryn really balanced?.

[Dreez76]

Watch this video first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X6zfCa2Zgo

I like Saryn, dont get me wrong, she's my go-to frame on every infested mission.  But this video shows that something

is either terribly wrong with Saryns damage on higher level mobs, or that other frames simply needs to get the nerf-hammer,

i believe its the first - Saryn is weak against higher level enemies.  Even if you learn to master all the combinations of her skills,

at those levels of enemies, she will get instantly killed if she tries to get close to apply anything except spores.

And the fact that he had pretty much maxed the power, and still couldn't dent the gunner tells alot about what's missing.

 

[Genitive]

Saryn is more of a debuffer rather than pure dps frame. Pop Spores and cut health of the enemies in half, and you have easier time to kill them. Miasma is not the only way to kill stuff with Saryn and people shouldn't rely on it that much. 

Another problem is armor scaling on higher levels, but maybe that will be changed in the near future. Saryn might have been reworked with the new damage system in mind, we shall see

The only problem I have with Saryn is her survivability. Molt gets destroyed in seconds on higher levels. It really should get snowglobe treatment.

[Gurpgork]

The thing is, the person who made the video was using an unoptimal build, in an unoptimal situation, with an unoptimal loadout.

Saryn's damage output doesn't come from Miasma, and that's the biggest misconception surrounding her place in the game since the rework. Saryn's damage output comes from spreading spores and stacking Toxin procs. Miasma is there to give you a short breather or to put a dent in mid to high level Ancients. 

The proper way to build and play Saryn is with a huge amount of range and a good amount of strength, and applying as many Toxin procs as possible and bursting as many Spores as possible. Since Spores transfer Toxin procs and have an enormous spread range, and Toxin procs stack indefinitely, it's possible to stack a huge amount of DoTs on every single enemy in the room. Use the Ignis, Torid, or Staticor, or go melee with Shadow Step and a weapon with a lot of reach. Mios or Lesion (with Maiming Strike) are probably the best choices there.

There are a couple huge problems with that video. First and foremost, armor scaling is obscene. They even highlighted it in the clip, that Heavy Gunner at level 80 has more than 400,000 effective hitpoints. Why does anybody think that's acceptable? Why does anybody expect every single frame in the game to be able to fight enemies that are that disgustingly difficult to kill? Expecting Miasma to kill an enemy that is approaching half a million effective hitpoints is asking entirely too much. Armor scaling is a far, far bigger issue than Saryn's damage output.

The second problem is that Saryn's power comes from enemy numbers, and being able to Toxin proc huge amounts of enemies while using Spores to stack and spread them. As a result, she's quite weak against single targets. She can't stack up her damage against just one enemy the same way she can against 20 enemies. It's just not possible. 

And third, as I said, that build sucks. Saryn needs range and strength more than anything else. Duration is only for Toxic Lash builds, and even Toxic Lash has such a huge base duration that it doesn't really need it. 

TL;DR: Saryn's problems in that clip are armor scaling and being played unoptimally, not that she actually sucks. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Gurpgork
#DeathToArmorScaling

[ClinkzEastwood]

Not that garbage video with terrible build again.

[ThePredicament]

Basically, all damage frames will eventually run into problems, even RB+EB finisher will start having problems because it's pure damage. And Viral, unlike Corrosive procs, are bad with armor since scaling armor basically diminishes the effect, especially since it doesn't stack.

For example, an enemy with 1200 armor (80% damage reduction) with a 1000 health might have their health cut to 500 but since they have 80% damage reduction, it's not going to mean much since its EHP is still quite high (It's a slower MPrime with a different damage equation). As opposed to an enemy with the same stats getting stripped by something like Seeking Shuriken doing a TON of EHP damage.

There's a sweet spot in enemy scaling where she shines (about mid/high) but that's really it. Is she in a good spot? No, she still needs a lot of tweaks but she can definitely hold her own with proper gameplay and equipment.

[UltimateGrr]

2 hours ago, Genitive said:

Saryn might have been reworked with the new damage system in mind, we shall see

This is my thought, since Inaros seems to follow in the same mold.

[YasaiTsume]

Armor is the issue here.

Alot of frames damage is actually very sound on paper > without armor in effect. 

 

Also : The video shows a bad build.

Edited March 11, 2016 by YasaiTsume

[ScribbleClash]

This guy is very clueless about Saryn. You pop spores to keep your viral up. You use your Toxic Lash for up to 90% damage reduction (he didn't even touch on that one!). He also avoids popping the last spore and claiming that viral just ran out. That's just blatantly ignoring that he could prolong the Viral. It's also largely silly to do this on a single enemy, as multiple enemies make Viral way more effective.

Please do not use this video as a means to measure Saryn.

[PikeOrShield]

The guy should have tested it with 15 or so heavy gunners and a gas ignis. Cast spore, fire your ignis for 2-4 seconds, cast miasma... And keep shooting while they are stun locked!  Now some may say that using a weapon is cheating, but that Nikana looked pretty tricked out with a full complement of mods to me.

His main mistake was not realizing that in a horde mode game, 1 on 1 honuraburu combat is few and far between.  Spore works better against groups since it can stack its damage, refresh viral (which he complained about in the video), and carry toxin around while boosting it's burst damage when it is popped.

Excal is a great frame, but if the enemies are not standing in a strait line, Saryn can melt them a bit faster.

[(PSN)MrDemigod81]

4 hours ago, Genitive said:

Saryn is more of a debuffer rather than pure dps frame. Pop Spores and cut health of the enemies in half, and you have easier time to kill them. Miasma is not the only way to kill stuff with Saryn and people shouldn't rely on it that much. 

Another problem is armor scaling on higher levels, but maybe that will be changed in the near future. Saryn might have been reworked with the new damage system in mind, we shall see

The only problem I have with Saryn is her survivability. Molt gets destroyed in seconds on higher levels. It really should get snowglobe treatment.

SUPER AGREE ON THE MOLT! 

even, with regenative molt and rejuvenation still get hammered.

 

 

 

 

 

*(check out my concept of a Parkor warframe)*

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by (PS4)BIGHEBREW

[Hellmaker2004]

So the Exal is allowed to use weapon mods and keep swinging and yet when he plays Saryn he only stands there like he is unable to do any other actions while her kit work in the background. Yep the dude that compared those two are clearly doing it in a fair way.

 

Next week hot topic. Why does Ember Prime not deal Finisher damage equal to Ash Prime with each of her explosions.

[IceColdHawk]

4 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Not that garbage video with terrible build again.

The build wasn't to show how to play saryn, it was to show the limit of saryn's damage. He also mentioned that it won't work in normal gameplay. Real builds are ofc more efficient but deal less damage.

[GrimAtrament]

and here i was expecting another bring back the old saryn draco crying forum..and oh look i was right.

Edited March 11, 2016 by hazerddex

[Hellmaker2004]

16 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

The build wasn't to show how to play saryn, it was to show the limit of saryn's damage. He also mentioned that it won't work in normal gameplay. Real builds are ofc more efficient but deal less damage.

 

That Video showed the limit of Saryn's Miasma damage, she has so much more than her number four skill.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

10 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

The thing is, the person who made the video was using an unoptimal build, in an unoptimal situation, with an unoptimal loadout.

Saryn's damage output doesn't come from Miasma, and that's the biggest misconception surrounding her place in the game since the rework. Saryn's damage output comes from spreading spores and stacking Toxin procs. Miasma is there to give you a short breather or to put a dent in mid to high level Ancients. 

The proper way to build and play Saryn is with a huge amount of range and a good amount of strength, and applying as many Toxin procs as possible and bursting as many Spores as possible. Since Spores transfer Toxin procs and have an enormous spread range, and Toxin procs stack indefinitely, it's possible to stack a huge amount of DoTs on every single enemy in the room. Use the Ignis, Torid, or Staticor, or go melee with Shadow Step and a weapon with a lot of reach. Mios or Lesion (with Maiming Strike) are probably the best choices there.

There are a couple huge problems with that video. First and foremost, armor scaling is obscene. They even highlighted it in the clip, that Heavy Gunner at level 80 has more than 400,000 effective hitpoints. Why does anybody think that's acceptable? Why does anybody expect every single frame in the game to be able to fight enemies that are that disgustingly difficult to kill? Expecting Miasma to kill an enemy that is approaching half a million effective hitpoints is asking entirely too much. Armor scaling is a far, far bigger issue than Saryn's damage output.

The second problem is that Saryn's power comes from enemy numbers, and being able to Toxin proc huge amounts of enemies while using Spores to stack and spread them. As a result, she's quite weak against single targets. She can't stack up her damage against just one enemy the same way she can against 20 enemies. It's just not possible. 

And third, as I said, that build sucks. Saryn needs range and strength more than anything else. Duration is only for Toxic Lash builds, and even Toxic Lash has such a huge base duration that it doesn't really need it. 

TL;DR: Saryn's problems in that clip are armor scaling and being played unoptimally, not that she actually sucks. 

You might be able to test it: does poison scale from crits? Slash as status equivalent on a different damage type does and gets a massive boost from the body count combo.

 

To be more specific on this: the spores get a boost in the extend of the summ of the innitial damage that triggered each poison procc, basicly the full basedamage (x multiplier?) that set it and spreads 25% of this endnumber (affected by strength) as radial dot without consuming the posion proccs. Just playing her effectively makes the damage swell into infinity and... what? 80-100k dual ichor red crit damage STACKING WITH EACH HIT affecting it would most definitly make her THE damage frame for high levels. 

Miasama isn't only a stun eather as it acts as radial damage in the typical execution: it popps spores on the torso. Idealy multiple ones in a wide area, what also spreads them like crazy and adds a sh**load of damage.

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You might be able to test it: does poison scale from crits? Slash as status equivalent on a different damage type does and gets a massive boost from the body count combo.

 

To be more specific on this: the spores get a boost in the extend of the summ of the innitial damage that triggered each poison procc, basicly the full basedamage (x multiplier?) that set it and spreads 25% of this endnumber (affected by strength) as radial dot without consuming the posion proccs. Just playing her effectively makes the damage swell into infinity and... what? 80-100k dual ichor red crit damage STACKING WITH EACH HIT affecting it would most definitly make her THE damage frame for high levels.

Something like the Torid only takes base damage into account if I'm not mistaken, but the guaranteed procs from Toxic Lash are based on total damage before elemental resistances and weaknesses, including red crits and the melee combo meter (and maybe even stealth attacks).

I wouldn't say that this makes Saryn THE damage frame, but she's really damn good at it, and she can certainly hold her own against other damage frames such as Excalibur if she's actually played correctly. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Miasama isn't only a stun eather as it acts as radial damage in the typical execution: it popps spores on the torso. Idealy multiple ones in a wide area, what also spreads them like crazy and adds a sh**load of damage.

 

Yes, you're right about this. Miasma is still one of the strongest radial nukes in the game. But it's by no means Saryn's primary damage source, and people shouldn't treat it as such. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Gurpgork
Clarity issue.

[Misgenesis]

Yes and no. She does the caster part well but not the brawling.

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

Happy to see people arguing for Saryn, people are coming around! 

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

.-snip-

I know it scales from crits and combo counters using toxic lash, as Gurpgork said. As for guns, it's purely anecdotal when I say I believe it does scale off crits. You should be able to test it for yourself using the Lanka scoped and unscoped, but I seem to get much higher numbers when I get critical hits that proc gas. That's part of why it's so awesome having a teammate using a gas tonkor in high levels, to give you large toxin procs to spread.

Edited March 11, 2016 by (PS4)maelstromm15

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Something like the Torid only takes base damage into account if I'm not mistaken, but the guaranteed procs from Toxic Lash are based on total damage before elemental modifiers, including red crits and the melee combo meter (and maybe even stealth attacks). I wouldn't say that this makes Saryn THE damage frame, but she's really damn good at it, and she can certainly hold her own against other damage frames such as Excalibur if she's actually played correctly. 

Yes, you're right about this. Miasma is still one of the strongest radial nukes in the game. But it's by no means Saryn's primary damage source, and people shouldn't treat it as such. 

Well some dude posted his ~90k damage peaks with his...dual zoren? Lately... it definitly scales off basedamage, that means on a basedamage+crit build: the full 90k red crit value triggering lash, setting a guaranteed dot. Means on an enemy with spores on, 100%str, full red crit combo influence, 50%(~60% with her passive) as poison, full additional damage

First hit-> 90k innitial damage addet to the spore ex, 22,5k spread

Second hit->180k innitial damage addet to the spore ex, 45k spread

Third hit->270k innitial damage addet to the spore ex, 67,5k spread

Evrything while 54k per hit tick down over 8 seconds.

While you ideally hit multiple enemys at once... this damage is allready under the influence of the reduction! Now lets say evry enemy in range (lets say 30) has at least 3 spores on the torso that are under the effect of the spread poison alone (80k, just like 2-3 stronger ticks from a couple spores), activating miasama would mean 7,2 million totall damage. Not source, still triggered, with spread to evrything that isn't in range. Not realistic as hardly anything survives the innitial ticks alone...

This is only rivaled by mag in therms of radial damage output, given that enough corpus units are in range. 

Excal meanwhile hits for like 20k linear without real options to raise his damage aside from blinding and execution (~80k singletarget, what saryn is able to spread with a few melee hits)

 

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[phoenix1992]

This is honestly Hard issue.
Saryn is... strange with the current options you have now.
Some players "tank" her - they do notice that she is not nearly good enough in solo while doing so.
Some players do DPS builds at her - they also notice that she is just not as valiable as other DPS frames when it comes down to time to damage to effect (she does offer more damage, but spread out)
Some players fool around with Melee bulds on her - they don't notice anything due to the clouds of the Contagion Cloud augment. 
Honestly my opinion is, that she is too much of "all rounder" at the current state.

[felixsylvaris]

Saryn is better the more enemies you fight. And if teammates are kind enought to pop the spores. Ideal habitat for Saryn is area with steady supply of mobs. Similation with 1 lone grineer is not ideal.

[RealPandemonium]

Armor scaling thread # 2762763.  Fix armor scaling and suddenly damage makes sense again.  Excal or w/e doing good damage because they have 20x the base damage of the alternatives is not a solution to armor scaling; it's a ridiculous, overtuned bandaid.  Similarly, Miasma having a base damage of 50k would probably be welcomed by many and would "solve" her damage problems (for the most part) but would make no ****ing sense.

 

I also recognize the guy who authored the video.  I've run into him a few times in-game and had to explain how the game works to him; hardly authoritative.  Anyone can make a video and appear competent, but that only highlights the need for the reader/viewer to actually know their stuff.  These videos are hardly educational and mainly serve to poison the well of public opinion.  

[Racter]

13 hours ago, hazerddex said:

and here i was expecting another bring back the old saryn draco crying forum..and oh look i was right.

 

The best part is she's far more effective at Draco now than she was before, though she's still a 1 button frame. That button is just 1 now instead of 4.

[(PSN)OmegAmorbis]

I had a feeling it would be that video. Comparing Saryn to Excal is inappropriate in the first place, as they have very different roles. While I can agree that Saryn is not in the best place she could be and will need to be looked at again eventually, she is a lot better than that guy gives her credit for. 

[Rydian]

The range on Ignis is crazy nowadays, especially with the +range mod.  Makes popping lots of spores great, and if you have a high status chance to confuse on the Ignis, you can make the enemies pop spores for you... which is even more hilarious.