Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[Ax10mCRO]

16 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

This is a point that should not be dismissed out of hands by using deflection, as there used to be a sticky post about this. It's one thing to say Tonkor's op because of paper DPS, it's quite another to have the weapon and are able to demonstrate it hitting for 100k or whatever number your weapon is doing one-shooting everything in an area.

DE crushed Synapse's status viability, with their adjustment, and it took in game use to see it was junk. People were STILL parroting the line about it being a status monster and never bothered to check how it handled.

With that said, provide some proof before you exclaim something like this.

4 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I suggest you to finally admit that you've been imagining things instead of embarassing yourself any further.

Like I said, provide a nice video proof of how it crushes everything on 3rd sortie in 1 hit, then we'll talk further.

[TheMightyBaloon]

While I agree that the tonkor is a  bit too op, I don' think it needs a nerf. At best i'll take that dmg re-scaling but with the horrible accuracy that it currently has I think it is fine. On average i miss more close range shots and long ranged ones with the gun than any other and it is one of the reasons I don't run with it in every missions. It aggravates me more to miss point blank than to have the satisfaction to insta kill 40 enemies. It is great against infested but so is the simulor or the penta(granted i've die so many times to that darned gun but I still love it). But IDK, nowadays the only use I get for the tonkor is in the JV raid and some sortie exterms that I want to do quickly, other than that, there are plenty of guns to use. What I do want is an Opticor buff of some sort, like gimme that laser rifle feeling where it feels good to kill stuff with it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 hours ago, Ax10mCRO said:

That is why I have asked EDYinnit to provide proof that he can 1hit anything on sorties at this time to back up his claim that Tonkor users simply stroll through the game blasting anything in sight with no drawbacks (such as having to reload during a fight). That way we can skip this entire need for time traveling to obtain old screenshots.

Edit: To make sure nobody can claim screenshots were edited, a nice little video of that run where he 1hits everything (solo run, using just the Tonkor, since like he said warframes throw the entire equation out the window) would be appreciated (along with his Tonkor setup)

I care neither to install a Catalyst nor go to the trouble of multiple Forma installations on a weapon I loathe due to its imbalance, just to placate someone who does nothing but move the goalposts every time they get refuted with logically sound evidence.

 

You have someone who agrees with your opposition to the thread's suggestion proving you wrong now, it's time you stop making a mockery of yourself.

 

Oh, and if we're being pedantic, 1hitting anything is satisfied by 'any' single unit that dies at Sortie levels (where the modifier may not enhance resistance).

As far as that counts for anything, Heavy Cal and Serration alone take off a good 80% of a level 135 Volatile Runner's health on crit. If I could fit one more mod on there than I can at a baseline level, I'd be able to show onehitting something of sortie-strength.

 

I do 24283 to a single level 135 V.Runner on yellow headcrits from my 7/8 slotted mods, Catalyser-installed Dread.

I do 2791 (noncrit) or 13956 (crit) to a group of level 135 V.Runners from a baseline Tonkor with only two mods.

If my Tonkor hit any two targets in range for critical damage, it beat my single-shot, single-target precision aimed weapon with 5 more mods in it.

Headcrit mechanics are the single biggest breaking point of the Tonkor, let's be honest here.

While autoheadshotting exists, and the headcrit bonus exists, no AOE using the explosion logic should have statistical viability of getting built for reliable critting. Or if it does, it should have vastly lower base damage, not 25 less.

Edited March 30, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Ax10mCRO]

5 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

You have someone who agrees with your opposition to the thread's suggestion proving you wrong now

A) he proved nothing

B) it's the same logic you used to dispute the screenshot posted by another user when it didn't suit your needs

6 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

1hitting anything

It was meant as "anything that comes your way", arguing semantics just proves you got no way to prove me wrong.

Even if you consider me to be a liar, and making a mockery of myself there's also a better known member of the community Utheraptor, the author of this post

Even he has said (and other people commenting there and on his message wall) that Tonkor has been nerfed after 18.5, are you calling everyone who agrees with me a liar and imagining the lower damage?

Since you like simplest solutions (occam's razor) isn't it possible that you're pulling data out of your butt since like you said, you don't actually PLAY tonkor? That seems fairly simple to me

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 minutes ago, Ax10mCRO said:

A) he proved nothing

B) it's the same logic you used to dispute the screenshot posted by another user when it didn't suit your needs

 

It was meant as "anything that comes your way", arguing semantics just proves you got no way to prove me wrong.

Even if you consider me to be a liar, and making a mockery of myself there's also a better known member of the community Utheraptor, the author of this post

Even he has said (and other people commenting there and on his message wall) that Tonkor has been nerfed after 18.5, are you calling everyone who agrees with me a liar and imagining the lower damage?

Since you like simplest solutions (occam's razor) isn't it possible that you're pulling data out of your butt since like you said, you don't actually PLAY tonkor? That seems fairly simple to me

A) Just because you say he didn't?

B) Not really, it proves consistency with damage expectancy so anything else is useless anecdote anyway.

 

The word you're looking for is everything then. Completely different, and not exactly an archaic word you should need a dictionary to find.

You'd just argue "not onehitting" an Infested unit affected by a Healer aura, or something else on utter semantics, even if I did care to go to all that trouble just for your benefit (and knowing you'd arbitrarily decide on some other minutae to claim against it, I'm even less inclined to trouble myself to such an extent).

 

That post?

 

Quote

Tonkor:

Description: Still the best weapon in the game… which is fairly impressive, considering that its damage got recently butchered to about a quarter of what it used to be, since it doesn’t autohit headshots anymore.

Is false. Also I've never heard of him, popularity doesn't mean a damn thing. Proof is king.

 

I'm not pulling data out of anywhere but the game's listed mechanics. I even showed where some inaccurate damage numbers existed even when compared to what appears to be the listed damage weakness/resistance, albeit only on certain Eximi units! Surely if I was just out to be ignorant of fact to bias the results I would have "conveniently" forgotten to address Eximus variants at all.

 

Evidence continues to accrue against your claims of nerf at an alarming rate, and all you can do is tell us you're right because you aren't listening.

Edited March 30, 2016 by EDYinnit
manual quote tags always get broken

[Ax10mCRO]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

A) Just because you say he didn't?

Ah so when one person posts a single screenshot claiming he did more damage before the patch that is false (because you said so) but when another person posts a screenshot and says he does exactly the same damage that is true (again because you said so) I see how it works now, just gotta switch to the point of view of a special snowflake and it all makes sense.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

The word you're looking for is everything then. Completely different, and not exactly an archaic word you should need a dictionary to find.

Yes, great, I made a mistake, english is not my native language, I apologize for it.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

That post?

Is false. Also I've never heard of him, popularity doesn't mean a damn thing. Proof is king.

That post is OLD, if you bothered to look at the date you'd see it's way before 18.5, if you bothered to look at the comment section and his message wall (which you conveniently ignored because it includes newer data) you'd see that people pointed out tonkor does less damage after 18.5

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Evidence continues to accrue against your claims of nerf at an alarming rate

Which evidence?

Edited March 30, 2016 by Ax10mCRO

[Gilmaesh]

I like the first option, making tonkor a low mr safe launcher with lower damage. 

[IceColdHawk]

3 hours ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Which evidence?

 

Wow. How ignorant can comeone be? I proved you exactly that the tonkor deals exactly the damage it SHOULD deal. Who said anything about it crushing sorties the 3rd level? Obviously enemy augmented armor or elemental resistance can change your damage output. Or even eximus stronghold. Still you refuse proven facts about the tonkor dealing correct damage? Oh man....  

Edit: 

4 hours ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Even if you consider me to be a liar, and making a mockery of myself there's also a better known member of the community Utheraptor, the author of this post

First of all, this post is outdated as hell. Second of all, it has amprex in it. Once it loses out on oneshotting targets, your ammo is empty faster before you can blink an eye. Last but not least, he says tonkor's damage got butched to a QUARTER of what it used to be?? It deals no headcrits anymore? Dude, you are AWARE that it's damage hasn't got touched? And this proves he didn't even test this weapon. Nothing got butchered, only that the game doesn't show you the headshotkills you have achieved at the endscreen. It just doesn't count towards getting headshot kills anymore, but you STILL do headcrit damage! This post is just as wrong as all your fallacies.

And just because some people go all derp: "its nurfd!1111 IT'S NURFD!111" doesn't mean it actually is. I heard too many people saying anything got nerfed. At the end it was just the derpiness of users having an extinguished key equipped. Once again, evidence is king, rumors are losers.

Edited March 30, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[vazerd68]

Explosions should only headshot if they happend above ennemy heads.

The no-self-damage launcher primary shouldn't be the strongest. As crit is meta, the crit stats should be lowered significantly to suit the 1st proposition.

The "you have to aim" argument can be discarded as soon as you look at the ogris.

[Currilicious]

The gun is fine.

Such a long winded way begging the devs, to limit the game to suit a certain playstyle.

Don't like it, then don't use it. What's all the fuss anyway?

Oh yes. I don't like it, you can't use it either. That pretty much sums everything up.

 

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

A) Just because you say he didn't?

B) Not really, it proves consistency with damage expectancy so anything else is useless anecdote anyway.

 

The word you're looking for is everything then. Completely different, and not exactly an archaic word you should need a dictionary to find.

You'd just argue "not onehitting" an Infested unit affected by a Healer aura, or something else on utter semantics, even if I did care to go to all that trouble just for your benefit (and knowing you'd arbitrarily decide on some other minutae to claim against it, I'm even less inclined to trouble myself to such an extent).

 

That post?

 

Is false. Also I've never heard of him, popularity doesn't mean a damn thing. Proof is king.

 

I'm not pulling data out of anywhere but the game's listed mechanics. I even showed where some inaccurate damage numbers existed even when compared to what appears to be the listed damage weakness/resistance, albeit only on certain Eximi units! Surely if I was just out to be ignorant of fact to bias the results I would have "conveniently" forgotten to address Eximus variants at all.

 

Evidence continues to accrue against your claims of nerf at an alarming rate, and all you can do is tell us you're right because you aren't listening.

WHAT ? *evidence* ?

All I see is YOU saying YOU refuse to try a WEAPON with a potatoe and fully modded before forming an OPINION:

Fact once I added a maxxed primed ammo mutation to my QUANTA for quanta cubes then the tonkor got benched .

Fact once I got my sonicor maxxed the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my syndicate symulor got maxxed mods the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my syndicate vaykor hek shotgun got maxxed mods the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my ammprex got maxxed primed ammo mutation the tonkor got benched in favor of flavor of the day simulor-ammprex-vaykor hek-quanta-combos with maxxed atomos or sonicore or vaykor marelok.

Dealwithit

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

WHAT ? *evidence* ?

All I see is YOU saying YOU refuse to try a WEAPON with a potatoe and fully modded before forming an OPINION:

Fact once I added a maxxed primed ammo mutation to my QUANTA for quanta cubes then the tonkor got benched .

Fact once I got my sonicor maxxed the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my syndicate symulor got maxxed mods the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my syndicate vaykor hek shotgun got maxxed mods the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my ammprex got maxxed primed ammo mutation the tonkor got benched in favor of flavor of the day simulor-ammprex-vaykor hek-quanta-combos with maxxed atomos or sonicore or vaykor marelok.

Dealwithit

I'm not sure what you choosing to use less efficient and effective weapons proves but okay.

 

10 hours ago, Ax10mCRO said:

Ah so when one person posts a single screenshot claiming he did more damage before the patch that is false (because you said so) but when another person posts a screenshot and says he does exactly the same damage that is true (again because you said so) I see how it works now, just gotta switch to the point of view of a special snowflake and it all makes sense.

Yes, great, I made a mistake, english is not my native language, I apologize for it.

That post is OLD, if you bothered to look at the date you'd see it's way before 18.5, if you bothered to look at the comment section and his message wall (which you conveniently ignored because it includes newer data) you'd see that people pointed out tonkor does less damage after 18.5

Which evidence?

No, when someone posts a screenshot and doesn't explain why that supports the argument it is anecdotal and therefore proves nothing. Let me break it down for you.

• Screenshot shows current damage
• Claim that this is lower than before - unproven, no evidence of previous comparison point is provided.
• Claim that this is appropriate damage - proven, as the mathematics of weapon stats and damage expectancy solves correctly to that valuewithin reasonable rounding margin.
• Therefore, even if the unproven claim of larger previous damage is true, you cannot have been entitled to that damage anyway as it would be in violation of expected damage, and therefore a bug.

 

If the post is old, then why were you not specific about the exact location of your proof? I cannot be expected to sift through comments for more anecdotal statements. The post itself had a justification for reduced damage, at least - it just happens that autoheadshotting is still ingame (or at the very least returned at some point after that) so the justification is incorrect right now.

[IceColdHawk]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

WHAT ? *evidence* ?

All I see is YOU saying YOU refuse to try a WEAPON with a potatoe and fully modded before forming an OPINION:

Fact once I added a maxxed primed ammo mutation to my QUANTA for quanta cubes then the tonkor got benched .

Fact once I got my sonicor maxxed the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my syndicate symulor got maxxed mods the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my syndicate vaykor hek shotgun got maxxed mods the tonkor got benched.

Fact once my ammprex got maxxed primed ammo mutation the tonkor got benched in favor of flavor of the day simulor-ammprex-vaykor hek-quanta-combos with maxxed atomos or sonicore or vaykor marelok.

Dealwithit

 

Read my first post on this very page.

Dealwithit.

[BrokenMirror]

On 3/14/2016 at 3:09 PM, Fraank said:

I want self damage on every explosive weapon back for the sake of realism.

Yes. Because our little game about Space Ninjas using Mutated Dogs, Giant Rocket Launchers, and Rocket powered Hammers about committing Genocide on a Faction of Humans, Clones, and Balls of Mutated Cells, while we get *****ed at by a child controlling our suits using his mind, all while we look for ways to mute the Sentient Computer, Ordis and our Space Mother Lotus, who somehow has a full Picture Link to us is the epitome of realism. 

I forgot to mention how realistic the...

<Insert every warframe>, Amprex, Thunder Bolt attica, Conventrix, Dera Vandal, Dread (Cutting people in half and doing more damage then every assault rifle in the game), Glaxion, Ignis (ALL THE PUNCHTHROUGH!), Mutalist Cernos, Phage, Primsa Tetra, Quanta Vandal, Rakta Cernos, Simulor, Supra, Synapse, Torid, Paracyst, Acrid, Angstrum (10 minirockts fired in 1 shot, sureeee), Atomos, Concealed Explosives secondaries, Hikou Prime (yes throwing 120 stars a second is very realistic), Kulstar (A Handy carpetbomb... built into your pistol), Nukor (Microwave radiation totally looks like that), Sonicor (RAGDOLL ALL THE THINGS), Atterax (a tad heavy for a whip, dontcha think?), Destreza (All Vulpine mask, this is a very... slashing weapon dont you think?), Glaive (I wonder how it always comes back), Orthos Prime (Who needs to touch it to hit it? Lol pls), Ripkas (Where i do get chainsaw fists), Jat Kitag, Sheev(Plasma can opener!!!!), Tipedo (Good luck swinging this 100 times a second like my character), Jat Kitag.

DE I vote we remove ALL of these weapons (And warframes) as they are not Realistic enough for a game about space Ninjas committing genocide in the future.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, BrokenMirror said:

unrealistic

Realism may not factor in, but consistency still applies.

It's the only explosive with unscaling and crit-agnostic self-damage. It should be consistent with the scaling and crittable self-damage of all the others, unless and until those are reworked.

 

And I'll defend my self-damage to the death. It's not explosive if you don't suffer for a danger-close mistake.

[(PSN)thefndodge]

I support a tonkor nerf. It's an outlier.

[(XBOX)Synthid]

But nothing about the penta right? No? That's what I thought.

[Guest]

Honestly, I feel like if we just make it so there is a chance of premature detonation (goes 2-3ft before blowing up in your face) that is tied to tonkor's crit or status and a guaranteed knockdown to all tenno within a with time scaled by damage by something like:

x<999, 5 sec knockdown

1000<x<1999, 8 sec knockdown

2000<x<2999, 11 sec knockdown

3000<x, 10+(x/500) sec knockdown

This makes it so having 1 shot everything builds are still usable, but have a much higher chance of getting everyone killed or screwing things up. So there is the option to either have a loose cannon tonkor or having a loadout  reliant on more than just tonkor. So even if you run something like this,

Spoiler

You still have about 19 sec knockdown if they blow up in your face. Then you can keep the self damage or get rid of it, having to deal with a guaranteed knockdown when you had planned on taking out a big group of enemies seems like its own punishment.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Synthid said:

But nothing about the penta right? No? That's what I thought.

You mean the Penta that does less damage (due to crits), has a greater cognitive burden (keeping track of drenades for optimal manual detonation), no aim guide and risks killing yourself?

The Penta almost nobody uses because the Tonkor exists?

That Penta?

[letir]

18 hours ago, (XB1)Synthid said:

But nothing about the penta right? No? That's what I thought.

Penta is good weapon for Defence, but nowhere near Tonkor level.

[Irorone]

On 3/25/2016 at 0:25 PM, EDYinnit said:

• Tu quoque.
• The amount by which required damage is exceeded is not relevant. It retains all other benefits and retains the lack of risk. It still clears the same groups with the same no-risk policy, you can't argue that something does it better at a low level while ignoring the damage falloff factor. High performance 100% of the time > Higher performance 20% of the time, increasingly lesser performance over the remaining 80%.
• So it's the rule in the same tournament that was made after the discrepancy was noted, not the players who suffered making their own tournament, you now agree - therefore you agree that the ruling body here (DE) should be able to alleviate the self-evident balance discrepancy (here by rebalancing instead of forbidding completely) in exactly the same correlation?
• One factor that does not precisely correlate in an analogy does not invalidate the entire analogy. Fallacy again. It's still a balance outlier with a detrimental effect.
• Not reducing the success rate by using lesser weaponry only increases the amount of gameplay available to fellow players or leaves it identical (if not fighting together). The Tonkor's overpowering of the content decreases the amount of content by AOE clearing enemies others could be fighting. Also, again with the ad hominem when I've already stated I prefer to be utility and support, not the main damage dealer.
• The video does not apply as it is not referring to trivialisation that can be encountered in public play. If anything, it suggests you should be privately forming teams where your disproportionate impact is not minded. You know it isn't affecting anyone then. You don't know it won't affect people negatively in public grouping.
• I am forced to play with the tonkor by its nature as an imbalanced weapon causing it to see predominant usage. To claim I am not entitled to a reasonably balanced gameplay experience unless I form private groups is segregation.
• If I am not entitled to declare that the Tonkor needs balance changes, you are not entitled to definitively declare the Tonkor is immune to balance changes on the grounds you and others like it currently. If I am trying to 'control' you (wrong, but just assuming); you are therefore, by translating the equation, trying to control me.

Welp good to see this insanity is still going on >_>.  Sadly nobody seems to be running the keys/missions the keys are from that I need and the forums are just as bad as in game so IRONICALLY I don't have any option but to participate or mute the entirety of warframe at this point.

1.  If all weapons operated on risk vs. reward than warframe would be a gambling simulator not a third person shooter.  Since I know you're probably gonna say that any power weapon should come with risk/skill requirement than let me just counter with this ALL WEAPONS REAL OR NOT SO REAL ARE DEVELOPED WITH THE GENERAL INTENT OF GIVING A METHOD TO KILL SOMETHING ELSE WITH MORE EASE THAN OUR OWN BARE HANDS.

2.  DE is allowed to rebalance as they see fit,  HOWEVER the reason we get these arguments is because we get one group looking to take away our toys (and yes nerfing our favorite weapons is EXACTLY that breaking our toys) and the other side wants to make their voice heard over the nerf screaming.  What we want is an end to the stupid endless rebalancing that takes development resources away from new content.

3.  Irony on the whole one factor thing given you basically said that my in game gear=toys analogy was not true basically at face value.  AGAIN one has to define what "balance" in PVE even means and quite frankly I haven't heard one definition that hasn't given me bones to pick with it.

4.  Basically you just said baseline all the things so everyone has equal opportunity at gameplay fun.  I seem to remember a certain pixar villain quote that encapsulates this mentality, to paraphrase it, when everything's special NOTHING IS.

5.  YOU'RE NOT FORCED IN ANY WAY TO PLAY WITH A TONKOR.  You can recruit specific players, you can play solo, etc.  FINALLY SEGREGATION IS THE FORCED SEPERATION if anything you're ASKING FOR SEGREGATION by trying to limit what other people bring in to a public mission.  ALSO STOP TRYING TO MAKE A DISCUSSION ABOUT WEAPON BALANCING ANALAGOUS TO RACE IT'S QUITE LITERALLY INSANE. Sub notes on the previous a. one is an inanimate object in a fictional universe the other an infinitely complex history of conflicts and countercultures between groups of people b. it's IRONICALLY like trying to call the tonkor black and it should be more white (the previous text LITERALLY being an example of why the race analogy analogy makes no sense and is irritating).

6. You're entitled to declare the tonkor needs a balance change as MUCH AS ANYBODY ELSE IS ENTITLED TO DECLARE THE OPPOSITE.  Ironically you declaring that it's DEFINITIVELY in need of a change falls into the same category of false logic as those who say it's definitively not.  You are trying to control people's opinions, by posting AT ALL on this subject with feelings one way or the other you hope to persuade others to your side in essence controlling them ESPECIALLY so with those who's opinions run counter to your own.  LITERALLY THIS ENTIRE DEBATE IS ABOUT TRYING TO CONTROL THE PUBLIC OPINION ON WHETHER THE TONKOR NEEDS CHANGED AND HOW SO BY EXTENSION THE PRIMARY PLAYER FEEDBACK THAT WILL IN TURN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL DE'S RESPONSE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO NERF THE ACTUAL IN GAME ITEM BEING USED BY PEOPLE.  If these types of conversations had no effect on DE'S design choices I could probably spare myself the insipid nature of the vast majority of these nerf X conversations.

 

[IRVoidGuru]

On March 13, 2016 at 2:48 PM, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Because it makes it see play alongside synoid simulor, sancti tigris, vaykor Hek etc. Give it self damage and it will see zero play. At this point self damage from other launches should be removed. Self damage always caused exploits anyway.

 

I haven't seen anyone use either in many months. Well using kulstar to give it to vip/hostage doesn't count.

i think your right , lets lower self damage on other launchers so they are actually more used , not remove the self damage limiter on tonkor , are u trying ot kill a weapon? it will NEVER be used again on anyhting other then friggin wukong or valk , if you force it with self damage , on top of witch with no comtrole over bouncing the tonkor would be more harm then help , some of these ideas would destroy this weapon 

[NKDG]

1 hour ago, Irorone said:

Welp good to see this insanity is still going on >_>.  Sadly nobody seems to be running the keys/missions the keys are from that I need and the forums are just as bad as in game so IRONICALLY I don't have any option but to participate or mute the entirety of warframe at this point.

1.  If all weapons operated on risk vs. reward than warframe would be a gambling simulator not a third person shooter.  Since I know you're probably gonna say that any power weapon should come with risk/skill requirement than let me just counter with this ALL WEAPONS REAL OR NOT SO REAL ARE DEVELOPED WITH THE GENERAL INTENT OF GIVING A METHOD TO KILL SOMETHING ELSE WITH MORE EASE THAN OUR OWN BARE HANDS.

2.  DE is allowed to rebalance as they see fit,  HOWEVER the reason we get these arguments is because we get one group looking to take away our toys (and yes nerfing our favorite weapons is EXACTLY that breaking our toys) and the other side wants to make their voice heard over the nerf screaming.  What we want is an end to the stupid endless rebalancing that takes development resources away from new content.

3.  Irony on the whole one factor thing given you basically said that my in game gear=toys analogy was not true basically at face value.  AGAIN one has to define what "balance" in PVE even means and quite frankly I haven't heard one definition that hasn't given me bones to pick with it.

4.  Basically you just said baseline all the things so everyone has equal opportunity at gameplay fun.  I seem to remember a certain pixar villain quote that encapsulates this mentality, to paraphrase it, when everything's special NOTHING IS.

5.  YOU'RE NOT FORCED IN ANY WAY TO PLAY WITH A TONKOR.  You can recruit specific players, you can play solo, etc.  FINALLY SEGREGATION IS THE FORCED SEPERATION if anything you're ASKING FOR SEGREGATION by trying to limit what other people bring in to a public mission.  ALSO STOP TRYING TO MAKE A DISCUSSION ABOUT WEAPON BALANCING ANALAGOUS TO RACE IT'S QUITE LITERALLY INSANE. Sub notes on the previous a. one is an inanimate object in a fictional universe the other an infinitely complex history of conflicts and countercultures between groups of people b. it's IRONICALLY like trying to call the tonkor black and it should be more white (the previous text LITERALLY being an example of why the race analogy analogy makes no sense and is irritating).

6. You're entitled to declare the tonkor needs a balance change as MUCH AS ANYBODY ELSE IS ENTITLED TO DECLARE THE OPPOSITE.  Ironically you declaring that it's DEFINITIVELY in need of a change falls into the same category of false logic as those who say it's definitively not.  You are trying to control people's opinions, by posting AT ALL on this subject with feelings one way or the other you hope to persuade others to your side in essence controlling them ESPECIALLY so with those who's opinions run counter to your own.  LITERALLY THIS ENTIRE DEBATE IS ABOUT TRYING TO CONTROL THE PUBLIC OPINION ON WHETHER THE TONKOR NEEDS CHANGED AND HOW SO BY EXTENSION THE PRIMARY PLAYER FEEDBACK THAT WILL IN TURN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL DE'S RESPONSE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO NERF THE ACTUAL IN GAME ITEM BEING USED BY PEOPLE.  If these types of conversations had no effect on DE'S design choices I could probably spare myself the insipid nature of the vast majority of these nerf X conversations.

 

I'll just point out a few things here:

A: risk v reward can involve skill. (analogy time) a clown on a dunking booth says he'll give you 10 dollars if you can dunk him. Thus, you pay the man up front 5 dollars for the three balls. You're risking 5 dollars on your skill with throwing a baseball for a gain of 5 dollars. It requires skill to hit that target, and you're putting it to the test with both a risk and reward at play for success/failure. (Unlikely analogy i know, but it proves my point and works)

B: if we don't keep everything on some sort of baseline of balance, the new content will either be trivial or powercreeped, which is either bad for business or agonizing for players respectively. 

C: Balance in pve is the same as balance in pvp. The definition isn't subjective in this case, just the degree. It just means all weapons/classes have a similar degree of viability. If one has a significantly higher degree of viability, it should be rebalanced back to the parameters of viability that the other weapons have. 

D: This is more like calling the tonkor black when it should be grey. Solution? Add some white (in this case remove the self damage cap) until it reaches the shade of grey it should be. 

E: An opinion is simply saying its op. A fact is saying its an outlier that must be remedied. Granted, the degree of space between the outlier and the rest of the points until it becomes an outlier is subjective, and that's where the contention lies. That's why we need some sort of baseline (in this case other launchers) to compare it to. Let's do that shall we? Other launchers have an uncapped self damage. Tonkor does not.

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[NKDG]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

i think your right , lets lower self damage on other launchers so they are actually more used , not remove the self damage limiter on tonkor , are u trying ot kill a weapon? it will NEVER be used again on anyhting other then friggin wukong or valk , if you force it with self damage , on top of witch with no comtrole over bouncing the tonkor would be more harm then help , some of these ideas would destroy this weapon 

But this promotes skill. It won't kill the weapon, it'll weed out those who liked it cause "noob tube F*** everyone else, let's point-blank a launcher" from those who actually like the weapon cause it's fun. Now there's appropriate risk for your reward of high damage, what's wrong with that? I'd gladly trade in my secura penta and start using tonkor if that element of balance was added. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by NKDG

[IRVoidGuru]

9 minutes ago, NKDG said:

But this promotes skill. It won't kill the weapon, it'll weed out those who liked it cause noob tube F*** everyone else from those who actually like the weapon cause it's fun. Now there's appropriate risk for your reward of high damage, what's wrong with that? I'd gladly trade in my secura penta and start using tonkor if that element of balance was added. 

thats not an element of ballance , weapons wer made for making killing easyer , if you add self damage to tonkor every 1 , Every 1 , is just going to move Right over to simulor , it dont damage u , it deals almost the same High output damage , and u dont have to aim , ppl with no skill will always have no skill . changing weapons they use will only make it to where they have to find a new weapon to no skill , nerfing isnt the answer . rebalancing other weapons to be as strong as tonkor or better is what we need to be thinking of now    P.S. its also not lost on me that every 1 in this post that talks about balance , seems to only be taking our equiptment into account , without noting that without weapons like tonkor there will be no ballance between high end enemys , and us tenno. tonkor is fine as it is the only ppl who dont enjoy it is those who see others have an easyer time then they are while your using a weaker weapon .

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33