Mag Feedback to Devstream #71

[Aquasurge]

1 hour ago, Ryouhi said:

From what i have seen it looked like it didnt throw them halfway across the map anymore. When Reb used Pull enemies seemed to land more towards her feet now.

 

Actually seems to literally pull them towards it, not just aggro i believe

 

Might be the intention, since Shield Polarize certainly deserved some nerfs. This change however would mostly affect enemies the farther away they are, so close enemies would still get blown to pieces, while leaving those far away without shields at least.

I'd say this doesnt sound tooo bad and we got armor shred to compensate for it. 

I hope this could affect enemies lol
pulling a enemies in a medium AoE towards the point you bulletjumped, so you can kill them while aimgliding away - would be pretty badass xD

 

Making pull a onehanded action would certainly be appreciated, not so sure about SP though.

 

I'm mostly content with how this looks right now.

Maybe decrease the fling velocity of enemies being pulled still alittle more - maybe pull them all into one big pile, so they all end up roughly in the same place, after which you could perfectly combo in SP

Magnetize looks great the way it is

Crush we'll have to wait for what the devs will experiment with

 

But for now - Good Job Scott and everyone involved :D

unless sheild polarize becames a slow expanding overload - then it will be terrible

[Burnthesteak87]

I don't want to be hypercritical, but...

Vortex + Cataclysm = Magnetize (New Bullet Attractor)...
Crowd Control and Immortality spam again.

6 Things changed:

• Bullet Attractor got switched with Shield Polarize from #3 to #2:
• Bullet Attractor won't disappear when the target dies;
• Bullet Attractor slightly attracts nearby enemies;
• Shield Polarize doesn't seem to be an istant Aoe nuke anymore (I'm fine with this);
• Shield Polarize should reduce also Armor... Not needed;
• New useless passive sucking pickups while Bulletjumping...

6 changes which are superfluous: this won't change anything.

I can't realize how everyone is happy about this to declare "It's a step in the right direction", "Love it", "Good Job".

After Pull's Augment nerfs, Mag was played just for her Aoe nuke. Which is going to get nerfed. So she got Vortex/Cataclysm to compensate?

Also what's this matter of putting Armor Stripping on every reworked skill and augment?
Is it a bandaid to hide the poor concept work?
Is it lazyness into creating a new concept?
Or is it an unproper manner to solve the Armor Scaling issue?

And what's this poor passive? Sucking up pickups ala Carrier's Vaacum while bulletjumping? Pull isn't enough?
Even with the simplest thought, with the most average ignorance and lowest scores in Physics, I can think to something better.
Why not repelling projectiles while bulletjumping?

Where's fantasy in concepts?
Why reciclying other Warframes' Skills is even a thing?

Edited March 19, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Khunvyel]

Feedback first, feels later:
I am very glad that Pull seems like it remains the same. Even if the damage lacks against Grineer, the Crowd Control is amazing.
Bullet attractor being #2 now will take a LOT of getting used to, and I appreciate that it is being different. It feels like a bad vauban copy though, so I'm not sure if Bullet attractor cannot be made into something more different while still being useful.
First I was very wary about shield polarize from what I heard, but Scott's explanation made me nod in appreciation. I can live with that fine I guess, and not because I am an avid Nova user (since I'm not). I appreciate that we keep the same principle of offensive vs. defensive capabilities, but that we also get an added bonus against armored enemies. I understand not giving her something to work with against infested health based enemies, as long as we're still good with armor based infested.
Crush staying basically the same is something I would be okay with, but the issue is: She is VERY vulnerable. If you could give her fixed a shield-regeneration boost during crush, that would be great. Because she energizes everything, why not herself too?

I also appreciate also the synergy bonuses in between the powers. BUT. I advise caution about "Leaving dead bodies in the bubbles." Think about bottlenecks with dozens of enemies in a huge bubble. It will affect performance negatively. You should reconsider this, despite all the eyecandy.

All in all, I was sceptic the moment I heard of a Mag "makeover." Very much so. But now I looked at it, and look forward to the new Mag :)

Now, feels:

Spoiler

Mag, was my first and she managed to keep a place in my heart. Even though I never played her as the "press 4 to win" or the "augment pull bot."

I'm still drawn back to her, the ties were and are still strong. She was the first to got the Exilus Adapter, despite other frames being "better" suited for my style of playing. She also got the first focus lens installed because Mag. I even use the regular helmet on Mag Prime, and just pretend I Play an "upgraded version" of her, which is easy beacuse the prime version really doesn't have that much graphical variety compared to younger generation Primes.

Before Ability mods were removed, I really only used Pull and Shield polarize. After all abilities have been inherently available, I still find myself never pushing bullet attractor which felt lacklustre. The revamp seems to give me the incentive to push it, which is duly appreciated. I don't like "dark spots".

Mag was also something I always had high hopes for, in terms of Shield tanking. I still hope that shield tanking can be made viable again, with shield resistances. It's nowadays armor or ability tank only, shield is basically for cautious-play on the starmap, nothing else.

I did enjoy her niche role of "Anti-corpus only" very much. I like the idea of specialized Warframes, one for each task. So I took the tradeoff in stride that her powers were only limited use against Grineer. So I guess I will feel less powerful to let her be that "instant shield destroyer and replenisher" and needing to be a lot more careful with Grineer.

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Khunvyel

[Katinka]

I played Mag when Pull was single target, Shield Polarize & Bullet Attractor weren't affected by power strength and Crush immobilized Mag for longer than it did the enemy.  I doubt these changes could possibly make her worse than that!  I loved her then and I'll love her still.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

2 hours ago, BBYipho said:

Shield Polarize

 

Feedback - The basics.  The default Shield restore was low can we get that raised?  If this ability expands like that wouldn't the damage be reduced? I noticed that the idea was to keep the damage the same but if it expands in a wave like this, then the enemy's shields exploding will damage the shields of enemies outside the wave. Wouldn't this cause the next enemy with shields to either give reduced damage or none if their shields was destroyed this way?

This is my main concern with Mag rework. If it's expending from you over time wouldn't it lose like pretty much all of its usual damage? Because once it reach the first enemy, he's gonna "explode" immediately and deal damage to all further enemies next to him, removing their shields and basically making them useless for Shield Polarize, since they no longer will "explode" for extra damage.

So for example with current version if you have 5 enemies grouped up, you get all 5 of them to "explode" and deal damage to each other. With new version only the closest one to you going to "explode" dealing 4 times less damage and most likely stripping all others from their shields making them ineligible for Shield Polarize.

It's just a concern, and maybe the way Shield Polarize works is slightly different now. Also I understand that in its current form it is quite OP and need some tweaking, and the idea of spreading over time is pretty good, but the question is wouldn't it be too hard of a nerf if it applies only one enemy shield damage as opposed to previous 5 or more.

 

Also I should add that everything else is looking amazing. Of course I should wait to see it in action myself, but so far it looks like a really great job by Scott and DE.

Edited March 18, 2016 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[Fifield]

At the moment, Shield Polarise _ruins_ high level Corpus missions.  No skill (or weapon) should be that strong against any faction.  It is literally "Press 2 to Win".

Other frames have skills that can nuke low level enemies, which is necessary due to compelling players to do such missions.  But they can't do it to high level enemies.

Shield Polarise therefore needs to tail off -- or be remade entirely.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Fifield

[Currilicious]

I think the concern over damage dropoff over distance should be addressed. Despite the overall buffs, I would really hate to see Mag's signature skill, Shield Polarize, being rendered sup-par.

I think one way to go about it is to have the damage snapshotted over a distance from the epicenter. Like say, X% of shields consumed within Y meters from the caster's location is added into the explosion damage. Now whether X and Y can be altered through power strength and power range, that is something to consider.

The reason for this is to ensure Shield Polarize will still do some damage even if the targets at the furthest end have no shields. As a result, the caster's positioning plays a significant role is maximizing damage.

The closest targets with full shields still gets damaged more and the further ones will get damage less but the damage falloff over distance will be less drastic. And, the minimum damage at maximum effective range will not be zero as long as Shield Polarize is used with some situational awareness.

 

Edited March 19, 2016 by Currilicious

[-Temp0-]

Don't quite understand the need of touching shield polarize at all. Like, why change something that wasn't broken but ignore crush? Right now it seems we'll have to waste more energy for the same effect (2 + 3 ability together). Seems like Saryn's case with her useless 4 and forced use of other 3 of her skills at once.

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Don't quite understand the need of touching shield polarize at all.  Like, why change something that wasn't broke

Press 2 to win obliterating level 100+ corpus not broken?

[-Temp0-]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

Press 2 to win obliterating level 100+ corpus not broken?

Being useful doesn't equal to being broken. And lvl 100 corpus were dying only because of their insane shields, because normal corpus under lvl 45-50 can survive shield polarize easily, espeially if no shield osprey is around. That seems more like ability taht actually scales. What she's good for now? Staying alive in that bubble?  And that pathetic shield polarize now seems like Volt's ult. Funny thing about his ult, I once got bored and wanted to farm oxium on Baal solo. And since it's corpus and I was bored I took Volt for once. Shoved almost all strenght mods in him and that loser couldn't kill all the enemies with his ult. Killed some, but not all. All enemies on that map were lvl 22-25. Power str was something like 270%. Want to see Mag like that? I personally don't really care, don't use her much just like Saryn. But that rework doesn't seem promising. The most useless thing is still useless, the most useful skill that made her viable now seems like it was cut in half.

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Being useful doesn't equal to being broken.

Weasel words.

Useful would be taking out a third of the enemies' shields (not affecting health).  Anything significantly beyond that is broken, particularly now that the only challenging part of the game (sorties) requires fighting Corpus a third of the time.

2 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

And lvl 100 corpus were dying only because of their insane shields

Insane how?  Level 100 enemies aren't supposed to be easy to kill.

[-Temp0-]

Just now, Fifield said:

Useful would be taking out a third of the enemies' shields (not affecting health).

Who the f needs that when you can just mod for toxin and your shields won't even matter? 

Quote

Insane how?  Level 100 enemies aren't supposed to be easy to kill.

Well, dear, insane since they're lvl 100. More shields = more damage from shield polarize. Easy math. If "lvl 100 corpus aren't supposed to be easy to kill" then how about just change the formula for damage above lvl 50 or change it in general? But too simple, too easy. Now it oficially looks like Volt's ult. And he's absolutely, uterely useless. So yep, not hyped at all.

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Who the f needs that when you can just mod for toxin and your shields won't even matter? 

Toxin damage is also broken vs shields.  Fix both and fighting Corpus actually become a proper part of the game.

Also, you didn't answer the question.

[KaeseSchnitte]

Now, here are some ideas I am having for Mag's rework:

 

- Pull

While inside of Magnetize, Pull should pull in all enemies in a 360° radius.

- Magnetize

Magnetize should be castable freely. When cast on an enemy, Magnetize will create a sphere at the point where the enemy is standing. All enemies inside should attract bullets, starting with the enemy in the center.

Enemies that once entered the magnetized sphere, should not be able to leave it (with exception of enemies affected by Nullfier shields for example).

- Shield Polarize

Shield Polarize should have the same mechanic as in the demo, but the shockwave should travel much faster. In return, Shield Polarize should only place a magnetic (and corrosive) debuff on all enemies. Additionally, it should have a cool effect on friends and foes inside a magnetized sphere, like overcharged shields for example.

- Crush

The animation should lift the enemy into the air and then crushing them on the floor, the animation should be sped up to only last on second in total. The damage gets changed to be just one tick (when landing on the floor). Enemies that have been knocked down should stay down to enable melee finishers. The effect should be enhanced for enemies within a magnetized sphere.

 

Gameplay potential:

My idea heavily centers around the new Magnetized skill. My idea was to add as much combo potential as possible to this skill. For example, you could cast Magnetize on the ceiling, creating a magnetized sphere. Then you could jump into that sphere and use Pull, to pull nearby enemies into the sphere. You can watch in excitement how the enemies ragdoll in the sphere at the ceiling, since there is no ground for them to stand on. Why you should do that? Because it's cool ofcourse.

Another idea is to use Magnetize at a choke point to create a deadly field the enemies can't pass through easily. Since all enemies inside the magnetized sphere would attract bullets, you could use the sphere as an "aimbot" for enemies inside of it.

The changes I made to Shield Polarize I suggested because I feel that the current version is too strong. And having Shiel Polarize just removing the shields, instead of dealing additional damage, leave room for another mechanic that would also affect grineer.

The changes I suggested for Crush are just for speeding up the animation, since I don't like being locked in place for 2+ seconds for one attack. My suggestion would be much faster, allowing for a more active playstyle while using this ability.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

5 hours ago, Fifield said:

Toxin damage is also broken vs shields.  Fix both and fighting Corpus actually become a proper part of the game.

Also, you didn't answer the question.

Umm You do Realize that corpus is pretty much the most Broken faction in the game right?

Even Rebeca Called Bursas OP lol

They Have Scrambas/Combas. Nullifiers. Sapping Ospreys. Techs. Bursas. Shock Eximus.

all that and more. and you want them to be harder?

Ladies and gents we seem to have a pretty hardcore Masochist over here

[Fifield]

If you use those two cheese tactics, they're stupidly easy.   Oh, except for Sapping Ospreys but they're hard countered by the most used secondary in the game.

So yes, stop the latter (and then nerf Sapping Ospreys) and remove the cheese.  If you can't cope with the moderate difficulty, do an easier mission.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

If you use those two cheese tactics, they're stupidly easy.   Oh, except for Sapping Ospreys but they're hard countered by the most used secondary in the game.

So yes, stop the latter (and then nerf Sapping Ospreys) and remove the cheese.  If you can't cope with the moderate difficulty, do an easier mission.

You just exemplified one of Warframes biggest issues.

If you Nerf Us Enemies Becomes stupidly Strong and the game gets frustrating if you Nerf the Enemies We Become stupidly strong and the game gets boring

If the game is going to be Fun to play then Like you said The cheese needs to be removed and we need to get weaker... At The SAME TIME

And that requires large sweeping changes. which the majority of the community does not trust DE in Pulling off correctly

So until the Day the game is Balanced correctly This game will have more cheese than all of France

[Fifield]

You could literally cut  our damage in half and the game still wouldn't be hard.  Heck you get 4 lives now.  So it's ridiculous to suggest that DE are ever likely to make the game too hard.

In addition to nerfing our damage about 50% (on the best guns), DE should heavily nerf crowd control and nerf enemy damage 25%.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Fifield

[Ryouhi]

6 hours ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

- Crush

The animation should lift the enemy into the air and then crushing them on the floor, the animation should be sped up to only last on second in total. The damage gets changed to be just one tick (when landing on the floor). Enemies that have been knocked down should stay down to enable melee finishers. The effect should be enhanced for enemies within a magnetized sphere.

So Oberon Ult pretty much? xD

[akira_him]

Pull looked fine in the preview

seems bullet attractor really improved

magnetise(the new name for SP) speed looks fine in the preview, hope they don't drastically reduce it

as for Crush, it need some protection when casting it, like a magnetic filed to stop bullets and returns the bullets when the casting it done, like Neo in Matrix

[AlekVen]

Bullet Attractor is now called Magnetise, not Shield Polarise.