The De-personalization of Warframes...

[(PSN)Silverback73]

I think each Warframe type had a live Tenno that was above even the Primes.

These were the "Originals"...the rarest and most powerful operators that were given Warframes that literally formed around their bodies and submitted to their will and imagination and became an artful extension of their power...more powerful than any transference technique.

Unfortunately, as the war with the sentients became one of brutal attrition, the first losses of the Originals occurred.  

The Orokin set to developing a weaponized production program using specialized DNA from the Originals to create Surrogate infested flesh that responded to Transference and kept operators safe.

The most powerful/successful surviving Originals had their Warframes reverse-engineered into 2 production lines for repeated use:

The mass-produced standard frames.

The cost-and-resource-intensive primes reserved for Orokin Elite service and protection; utilized by the most talented operators.  Primes may have been the first copies, enhanced as much as possible to come close to matching the Originals in power.

Standard frames may have evolved out of the need for cost-effective Tenno armies.

Are the Originals still out there?  Are they a threat? Or ally?  Sleeping?

Boom...mind...blown? ?

 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Blakrana]

43 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

But between Stalker A) being identified as a Revenant

That's making an association, rather than stating 'By the way Stalker's a reanimated body that should really have died already'. It's a simile more like than not. "Stalker fights like a Vengeful Revenant" seems easier to accept than "Stalker is literally a Revenant".

We just don't know enough at this juncture to say 'Stalker is this'. Is his Codex entry true, or true 'From a certain point of view'? (Also, his Codex specifically notes Terminus, not Outer Terminus) 

Either way...Till we can find out just how genuine Stalker's account is since it's now something to consider anew, we're not really able to make much more of a statement than 'Stalker is something, and he is out to kill us'.

42 minutes ago, Pavelord said:

But Mirage still send kisses and Nezha still strike poses, when in mission when supposedly the Tenno is in control, when the whole idea of transference was that the tenno could have a substitute body to live their lives via a virtual brain transplant.

Not sure if it's a possible explanation, but considering Transference is described as 'like a lucid dream', that has left me wondering if the Warframe personas aren't just a result of the subconscious/unconscious aspects of their mind being drawn upon. It's a leap, not going to deny it but it's the best way I've got to look at it so far: a Warframe's quirks are just a result of how its design draws up certain archetypes from the unconscious aspects of the Tenno employing Transference.

It's sort of like the awkward question when you wear a mask; are you responsible for what you do, or was it something about the mask that made you do it?

Though, as is ever the case with matters like this, too little information to say anything concrete. I confess I have a distinct fascination with Masks and their surrounding psychology so bias does remain, all said and done.

33 minutes ago, KYVampire said:

Its weird and I have no clue how human conciousness works and even IF there could be "remnants" of such things in an possibly animate but non-sentient object

Well...Since the Luna tile updates, we've had those White 'ghosts'...so whilst we don't know just what they are yet, between those and the Quests where the Void Imprints have cropped up, be it Second Dream with Margulis' and Ballas' lines and Baro's mother for Sands of Inaros...is it possible the Void doesn't actually permit absolute death? That things can be forever caught as psychic shadows of what they were?

Though that would potentially necessitate some kind of capture mechanism so if there's some Archetypical 'Warframe essence' that needs to be snagged from the Void to make a Warframe be that type of Warframe which may be kind of convoluted. Though, this said, it being all Psychic stuff and the Tenno having phenomenal psychic power due to the Void, would that potentially mean Warframes are derived from the 'Collective Unconsciousness'?

All theory of course. Till we get some further information...No real way to be sure how accurate a view it is.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Blakrana
Spelling, typos, stuff

[KYVampire]

1 minute ago, Blakrana said:

Well...Since the Luna tile updates, we've had those White 'ghosts'...so whilst we don't know just what they are yet, between those and the Quests where the Void Imprints have cropped up, be it Second Dream with Margulis' and Ballas' lines and Baro's mother for Sands of Inaros...is it possible the Void doesn't actually permit absolute death? That things can be forever caught as psychic shadows of what they were?

Though that would potentially necessitate some kind of capture mechanism so if there's some Archetypical 'Warframe essence' that needs to be snagged from the Void to make a Warframe be that type of Warframe which may be kind of convoluted. Though, this said, it being all Psychic stuff and the Tenno having phenomenal psychic power due to the Void, would that potentially mean Warframes are derived from the 'Collective Unconsciousness'?

All theory of course. Till we get some further information...No real way to be sure how accurate a view it is.

Are you a philosophy teacher or something? I actually really like your response. 

[Blakrana]

Just now, KYVampire said:

Are you a philosophy teacher or something? I actually really like your response. 

No. Though I do have a Bachelor's degree in the subject, so half right.

[CraackerTraash]

At the very least, I think it's pretty clear that the Warframes themselves are living entities, separate from their Operators, and have some kind of intelligence. A bit like the EVA units in Evangelion.

Rhino Prime's codex entry is what solidifies this for me, as it describes (what can be presumed to be) a primitive Rhino acting of its own free will (it's implied that the Zariman 10-0 survivors are all in stasis, so transference isn't a thing yet) and as having a face (eyes and mouth), while being "without the shield", probably referring to an armoring that covers/contains the creature within the Warframe (again, EVA).

I could very well be wrong, of course, but I don't think I am.

[TARINunit9]

 

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Hydroid is on the card for the Swirling Tiger stance, but remains a sea monster, not a cat. Excalibur is on the mod card for Iron Phoenix, not Ember. The fact that Stalker is on the card for Vengeful Revenant is not a direct statement that he is undead.  

The combos for Vengeful Revenant are all Dread Despair Hate. It's a Stalker-themed stance

5 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Stalker's Codex entry says absolutely nothing about being on a ship. At all. In any way. It mentions a stadium, but not a ship. 

If I said "ship", that was a mistype. I said the Outer Terminus solar rail station at some point, and that's the emphasis I was trying to put

14 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

"I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians"

WITH THE REST OF THE LOW GUARDIANS. The question of old Stalker's identity ends there. Low Guardian

What's more, Stalker also speaks the line " Our cold and gold Emperors, breathless, bathed you in savior's silk." Operative word "You". "You" is "Tenno". Stalker does not include himself in the category pointed to by the pronoun "you".

 

Mr. BornWithTeeth, you are basically doing the lore equivalent of "Gravity is just a theory" here

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, CraackerTraash said:

At the very least, I think it's pretty clear that the Warframes themselves are living entities, separate from their Operators, and have some kind of intelligence. A bit like the EVA units in Evangelion.

Rhino Prime's codex entry is what solidifies this for me, as it describes (what can be presumed to be) a primitive Rhino acting of its own free will (it's implied that the Zariman 10-0 survivors are all in stasis, so transference isn't a thing yet) and as having a face (eyes and mouth), while being "without the shield", probably referring to an armoring that covers/contains the creature within the Warframe (again, EVA).

I could very well be wrong, of course, but I don't think I am.

Um, try this:

 

Watch the Second Dream sequence where the Operator is awoken and then threatened by the Stalker.

 

Then re-read the Rhino Prime entry.

 

 

The Rhino Prime lore entry isn't saying "Proto-Rhino has a full conscious mind", it's saying "Look, this is how Transference was first discovered."

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

 

 

 

Mr. BornWithTeeth, you are basically doing the lore equivalent of "Gravity is just a theory" here

I am not saying "The Stalker is exactly like the Tenno and was once one of them". I'm saying that his original Codex entry does not, in fact, state that he isn't using Transference to control a Warframe.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I am not saying "The Stalker is exactly like the Tenno and was once one of them". I'm saying that his original Codex entry does not, in fact, state that he isn't using Transference to control a Warframe.

I never said he wasn't using transference. My entire point is that he is not a Tenno. "Not using transference" and "not a Tenno" are not the same phrase

Edited April 6, 2016 by TARINunit9

[Pavelord]

9 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

It's sort of like the awkward question when you wear a mask; are you responsible for what you do, or was it something about the mask that made you do it?

Upon finishing the Second dream my idea was that we were playing the dream of the tenno, meaning in their sleeping state in the moon their unconsious took over developing a persona with each suit, being the unconsious mind more free to shape itself than the consious one weighted by reality and social constructs, but people kept telling me it was too meta to be true. But now with the possibility of some sentience inside the Warframe, I'm not really sure what to think of it.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

4 minutes ago, Pavelord said:

Upon finishing the Second dream my idea was that we were playing the dream of the tenno, meaning in their sleeping state in the moon their unconsious took over developing a persona with each suit, being the unconsious mind more free to shape itself than the consious one weighted by reality and social constructs, but people kept telling me it was too meta to be true. But now with the possibility of some sentience inside the Warframe, I'm not really sure what to think of it.

Soon^TM

The Truth will be Revealed.

[Blakrana]

1 minute ago, Pavelord said:

Upon finishing the Second dream my idea was that we were playing the dream of the tenno, meaning in their sleeping state in the moon their unconsious took over developing a persona with each suit, being the unconsious mind more free to shape itself than the consious one weighted by reality and social constructs, but people kept telling me it was too meta to be true. But now with the possibility of some sentience inside the Warframe, I'm not really sure what to think of it.

Fair way to look at it.

End of the day, we need more lore. Here's hoping that whatever we're looking forwards to will be more interesting than merely 'Acquire Kavat to clean the Orbiter'. Though I'd take some new Simaris targets as a good start.

[BornWithTeeth]

Yeah. Second Dream heavily implies that the Stalker either is or was an Operator. Disregard this word 'Tenno' because it's clearly not helping.

 

I'm not kidding, by the way. I do not give one single fig whether or not the Stalker is considered to be a 'true' Tenno, whatever that means. Instead, I'm pointing out that Second Dream drops some unsubtle hints about the Stalker, denial, Transference, and Warframes. There are a few moments there which feel like Steve lunging out of the screen to batter the player around the head, yelling "The Stalker is in denial! He hates himself just as much as he hates you! He's more like you than he can admit or stand! That's the entire point!"

 

You've called that a retcon. I don't think it is, because it doesn't actually contradict anything in the prior information. Despite the fact that you keep insisting that Low Guardian means some sort of lowly foot soldier, the word low isn't capitalised. It's not part of the title. The Stalker describes the Guardians as low, but that's his description not his title. We still don't know what Guardian actually means, and the codex entry still says absolutely nothing which requires the Stalker to not be using Transference, either knowingly or unknowingly.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

13 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I am not saying "The Stalker is exactly like the Tenno and was once one of them". I'm saying that his original Codex entry does not, in fact, state that he isn't using Transference to control a Warframe.

What if low guardians were Tenno that could not actually/effectively use the Transference technique?

They could even have been very powerful Warframe users, but needed to be inside the frames.

Because of this, they were assigned to guardian roles but, due to their "high-risk" situation of being in actual physical peril, were given lower-end suits and labeled "low guardians".  They might even have aged and grown, unlike the relatively immortal Dream-Tenno.

 

 

[CraackerTraash]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Um, try this:

Watch the Second Dream sequence where the Operator is awoken and then threatened by the Stalker.

Then re-read the Rhino Prime entry.

The Rhino Prime lore entry isn't saying "Proto-Rhino has a full conscious mind", it's saying "Look, this is how Transference was first discovered."

Unless I'm mistaken, the Operators couldn't actually do anything until they were weaponized for the explicit purpose of controlling Warframes.

Also remember that, in the Second Dream, it's shown that the Operators cannot utilize Transference unless they are either A: in a Transference conduit like the ones on the moon and in the Orbiter, or B: directly touching the Warframe.

I point out A because it would be impossible for Transference to have been "discovered" while the 10-0 survivors were in stasis; the technology just didn't exist yet.

I point out B because the Operator very clearly loses control of their Warframe when they are awoken on the moon, and is only able to regain control after crawling over to it and making physical contact.

To me, it seems like the idea to utilize the 10-0 survivors' latent psychic powers to control inhumanly strong (possibly Infested) creatures was a last-ditch attempt to win the Old War, as the Orokin had no other means of fighting the Sentients.

[TARINunit9]

6 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You've called that a retcon. I don't think it is, because it doesn't actually contradict anything in the prior information. Despite the fact that you keep insisting that Low Guardian means some sort of lowly foot soldier, the word low isn't capitalised. It's not part of the title. The Stalker describes the Guardians as low, but that's his description not his title. We still don't know what Guardian actually means, and the codex entry still says absolutely nothing which requires the Stalker to not be using Transference, either knowingly or unknowingly.

OK, so here's my beef:

(also, I normally try and type "low" uncapitalized. It's just that sometimes it's the first word in a sentence)

In old lore, Stalker makes a clear distinction between the vague identity he ascribes to himself, and the identity he ascribes to the Tenno. What Stalker is, is unclear; but he makes it clear it's entirely separate from the Tenno. And with how badly stigmatized the Tenno were in Orokin society (even before the Second Dream quest we knew they were persecuted in the same way the Imperium of Man persecutes psykers) it's pretty much unquestioned that he would know if he was a Tenno

In the new lore, Hunhow, as you said, just walks up and scrawls "STALKER IS A TENNO!!!" on your screen in neon-orange text

If that's not a retcon, I don't know what is

Edited April 6, 2016 by TARINunit9

[BornWithTeeth]

4 minutes ago, CraackerTraash said:

Unless I'm mistaken, the Operators couldn't actually do anything until they were weaponized for the explicit purpose of controlling Warframes.

Also remember that, in the Second Dream, it's shown that the Operators cannot utilize Transference unless they are either A: in a Transference conduit like the ones on the moon and in the Orbiter, or B: directly touching the Warframe.

I point out A because it would be impossible for Transference to have been "discovered" while the 10-0 survivors were in stasis; the technology just didn't exist yet.

I point out B because the Operator very clearly loses control of their Warframe when they are awoken on the moon, and is only able to regain control after crawling over to it and making physical contact.

To me, it seems like the idea to utilize the 10-0 survivors' latent psychic powers to control inhumanly strong (possibly Infested) creatures was a last-ditch attempt to win the Old War, as the Orokin had no other means of fighting the Sentients.

"It's about the other rejects we consigned to Lua a few years ago. They're calling it....Transference."

 

 

 " [The escaped warbeast kills everything in its path and chases the two scientists to the storage facility] I shout, "Davis, close the goddamn door!" - But he shakes his head eyes wide as moons. He shouts, "Watch!" over the roaring and rending of metal. 

Then silence. Davis is panting, laughing? The beast fills the doorway, inches from him, dripping in blood, but still without violence. It stands there, looking at its hands. Davis whispers, "No one would have believed me." 

I crawl up the wall to stand, opposite the door. I've never seen this cell, a cold place with an array of shelves. A morgue? "Where are we, Davis?" 

"This is where they keep them. The ones from Zariman." I'm thrown, what was the Zariman? The ship that never returned? "Davis, what's going on?" 

Davis turns to me, a smile forming - "What's going on is..." he turns back to the beast now silent and calm. 

"...big, fat promotions." "

 

 

It looks pretty clear. Warbeast escapes, kills everything, reaches the facility where the Tenno are sleeping, stops rampaging. Starts staring at its hands, goes silent.

 

The sleeping Tenno took control of it. The Rhino Prime codex entry is the first recorded instance of Transference.

 

 

 

@TARINunit9

We'll have to wait and see. There are huge gaps in our knowledge. We have no idea what this term 'Guardian' actually means, we know how how the slaughter at the Terminus began but not how it ended, we know the Tenno remained active for a little while afterwards as they were present during the early fall [Corrupted Ancient Synthesis] but not how they vanished, and we actually have precisely bugger all knowledge of what the Stalker has been up to for the thousand years or so that we were in hibernation.

[CraackerTraash]

13 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It looks pretty clear. Warbeast escapes, kills everything, reaches the facility where the Tenno are sleeping, stops rampaging. Starts staring at its hands, goes silent.

The sleeping Tenno took control of it. The Rhino Prime codex entry is the first recorded instance of Transference.
@TARINunit9

Damn, now I feel like a dolt. I hadn't even thought about why it stopped in the first place. That makes a lot of sense, as it explains where the Orokin got the idea to weaponize them. Thanks for catching my mistake.

I still stand by everything I said in my initial comment, though.

 

Although, now it seems weird that the Operator has to touch their Warframe to regain control in the Second Dream. My best guess is that the conduits are just to make sustained Transference easier.

Edited April 6, 2016 by CraackerTraash

[Relentless.Zen]

The idea about the Operators with the skilltrees and so on are great! But i really hate the fact the "Tenno" are just human kids. Wheres your fantasy DE? xD if someone asked me, i wanted the Tenno to be something special. For example high/future-tech computers - yes like ordis. Or maybe ghosts or whatever. This would add much more atmosphere to the whole game. These kids just feel wrong and misplaced in a Science Fiction shooter.

My opinion.

[five13]

How do we even know that the operators are in control here? The frame is in charge and it's draining the operator like a battery.

 

Edit: nevermind, earlier posts disprove this.

Edited April 6, 2016 by five13

[AgentScarlet]

Regarding the "low Guardian" vs. Tenno issue, my interpretation has always been that this distinction is merely one of rank/status, and they are otherwise the same thing. Considering that Stalker has a warframe and Tenno powers, he is clearly a Tenno in all but name. The idea that he is actually something fundamentally different seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[magusat999]

Ok, a lot of thoughtful, intelligent responses here. All trying to figure it out, it seems. Im feeling a bit clearer, but not comfortably. I think I know what DE is TRYING to say, but it seems to still leave questions unanswered. 

1. When I first started playing, the name "Warframe" meant literally a frame (sort of exoskeleton) made for War. What does that name mean now?
2. Hayden is an ancient Tenno? That still makes him a Tenno, right? And he wore a (3) Warframe...So we can accept Inaros as a Warframe, who is old enough to be considered "ancient", but Hayden, because he mucks up the new storyline, we just go "he doesn't matter"? Doesn't Orikin technology pre-date or co- date Hayden's time? And if so how do we justify just forgetting that part of the lore (which DE has left connected as canon)?
3. There is a video of Dark Sector, where the first "Warframes" appeared  - has all of you seen it? How do we reconcile that to what we are being told now. In that video  the first Tenno wore a Warframe that morphed into three different versions on the fly  - how do we dismiss that? 
4. Further, i cannot see how we can be dismissive of Hayden, despite him being dead for a long time when we are using some of his Warframes. So we can accept part of his lore, but not all of it? I feel we know too much about the original storyline to just pretend it didn't exist. It needs to be inclusive and explained at this juncture. It needs to fit without insulting our intelligence.
5. If Stalker is wearing his Warframe, and not controlled by an operator... then isnt that the way things work? It almost seems to make Stalker a hero...
6. If the Warframes gained sentience, but tge operator technically did nit exist or have control of the Warframe until he/she was rescued... Way AFTER said rescue... Where did this sense of self (sentience) come from? Thus far no solid answers, just theory. What was making the Warframe have a mind before the Operator existed? Dont say there was some low level brain-like AI going on, because that doesnt explain all these tears (our years, not lore years) of playing AS the Warframe, thinking we are the Tony Stark in the Iron Man suit. And remember all of the interactions with other characters over the span  of the game. Who talks to a brainless drone like that, and there was no Operator so nothing to support Transference... How to explain that?
7. EDITED IN: 

   I added this info as an edit to my OP - but I will put it here because it is a relevant point and some people are not going back to the OP...

   The first Tenno, was Hayden. What was his last name? Do we all know that "Tenno" is Hayden's last name? So when Lotus started using that term, it was not a term - it was a NAME.

   In this video, what happens at 6:00? What is inside of Excalibur? Looks like Hayden Tenno to me. So this is the kind of thing that does not match up with the new "lore" and needs to be explained and clarified. Obviously the Warframe was originally conceive as a War Frame, not a drone, with a PERSON inside. We cannot just go back on that now. What explains this???

    

    

    

    

   (I started this post from my tablet and a very rouge spell correcter that I needed to come back and basically re-type the whole thing from my computer... JEEZ!

Edited April 6, 2016 by magusat999
Extra info needed to be added

[YasaiTsume]

The Warframes : Some built with purpose, some may actually be worn as prototypes before Transference was perfected.

The Operators : Drug Cookers that cook up Focus which helps fuel the Focus abilities, and provide power to their Warframes.

Me : I'm whatever I want to be. Operator is my slave lol. 

 

PS:

Hayden Tenno from Dark Sectors have 0 link to Warframe, so the theory of first Warframes being worn as an armor could be destroyed in an instant if DE suddenly decides to make an announcement regarding "prototype Warframes" 

 

[Rejutka_Lupex]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

In the new lore, Hunhow, as you said, just walks up and scrawls "STALKER IS A TENNO!!!" on your screen in neon-orange text

If that's not a retcon, I don't know what is

I don't think that Hunhow can be considered a reliable source. He may be generalizing, seeing anyone using Warframe technology as a Tenno. (He said Alad was a Orokin, but he is Corpus. Orokin and Corpus may both be human, but they're at least a different culture and probably wouldn't like to be grouped together.)

 

Regarding Hayden - wasn't he more like the first infested? (Never managed to play through Dark Sector.)
It was loong ago, anyway. Probably like the olympic games nowadays are in reference of the originals, but not a direct continuation.

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, Rejutka_Lupex said:

I don't think that Hunhow can be considered a reliable source. He may be generalizing, seeing anyone using Warframe technology as a Tenno. (He said Alad was a Orokin, but he is Corpus. Orokin and Corpus may both be human, but they're at least a different culture and probably wouldn't like to be grouped together.)

THANK you, someone else who sees Hunhow for the presumptuous fraud he is! I didn't want to bring it up, because it's kinda irrelevant to the subject of a retcon, but now that you mention it: yes, Hunhow has been wrong about almost every single thing he's said

4 minutes ago, Rejutka_Lupex said:

Regarding Hayden - wasn't he more like the first infested? (Never managed to play through Dark Sector.)
It was loong ago, anyway. Probably like the olympic games nowadays are in reference of the originals, but not a direct continuation.

That's a good analogy, the Olympics. Hayden was infected with a strain of the Technocyte Virus, which was the same name used for the Infested before DE decided to just call it "the Infestation"