Contention: Lunaro Resources Should Have Been Dedicated to Conclave

[Krysyth]

Title says it all, folks. But for substance, here's my diatribe.

The Conclave Feedback forum appears to be one of the most vocal and involved in the game; look at other feedback forums and see how slowly threads slowly creep toward graveyard pages because nobody posts. Here, a thread without responses is buried in one or two days.

This is because the Conclave player community gives a damn, and wants DE to know that.

At the same time, there seems to be a considerable dearth of developer posts on this forum. Sparse responses, elucidations, any content at all. Why is communication so one-sided? Why do the balance changes in Conclave sometimes seem like such massive blindsides? Thundermiter and the pointless arrow flight-speed buff came out of nowhere and did very little, if anything, to address existing community concerns from then-relevant threads or to improve in any way the state of Conclave. 

Talk to us!

Now, on the horizon we have a new "sport" called Lunaro, a new competitive game mode which appears to be aimed at appealing to players who are not interested in PvP. So, essentially, a new and entirely different type of PvP play that will directly compete with Conclave and that is ostensibly aimed at players who do not want to do PvP in the first place.

Uh, what?

Last I checked, Conclave still needs some love. It needs servers, it needs more robust and meaningful challenges, it needs map selection options, it needs more varied maps, the list goes on and on and on...

So why are the problems of Conclave not being addressed?

DE is coming out with an alternate competitive mode that will sap player interest and development resources from the activity that they have supported with unceasing ardor. 

But what should be done?

In the spirit of constructive feedback, I propose the following:

• Improve communication with the Conclave playerbase
• Dedicate the time, effort, and money earmarked for the Lunaros project to Conclave

Edited April 26, 2016 by Krysyth

[Freekiku]

I think DE doesnt want to give the attention thats needed to PvP cause they are scared of running to far away from their original game and players.
We need to simply let them realize that PvP in Warframe someday will be a big thing :3

[rockscl]

its fair to say that in the best case if lunaros attracts enough people dedicated hosting may become part of the dev´s public vocabulary

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Im going to be blunt 

Less than 1% of players play conclave avidly now cuz many people think the game sucks

DE wants to attract more players to not make conclave a waste of resource

So they make new mode that is fun and not frustrating for pvers to enjoy

Conclave is dead people only play it for skins and syndanas except for a handful of people

 

[chromaticv1]

Doesn't Lunaros fall under conclave? It is Player Versus Player, not Player Violently killing other Player. I'm a conclave fanboy and I'm surely gonna love playing this.

BESIDES, Killing your bros isn't the only way to build skill to get trained for what lies next, which is the purpose of Conclave.

[JeyciKon]

i just hope this has the PVE mobility, if not it is just another waste of resources.

Edited April 23, 2016 by JeyciKon

[Krysyth]

3 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Im going to be blunt 

Less than 1% of players play conclave avidly now cuz many people think the game sucks

DE wants to attract more players to not make conclave a waste of resource

So they make new mode that is fun and not frustrating for pvers to enjoy

Conclave is dead people only play it for skins and syndanas except for a handful of people

 

Honestly, I wouldn't doubt that. But the question is, of course, why? Simply, because DE does the sorts of things I outline in my complaint - no communication, random changes out of left field, no investment of resources into the game mode.

Conclave is at a low point because of inattention. Lunaro will not help in any way, and merely shows that DE is willing to put resources into competitive gameplay... but not the game mode whose population has so avidly supported it despite all their administrative, communicative, and other shortcomings.

 

[--F--NerevarCM]

27 minutes ago, Krysyth said:

Honestly, I wouldn't doubt that. But the question is, of course, why? Simply, because DE does the sorts of things I outline in my complaint - no communication, random changes out of left field, no investment of resources into the game mode.

Conclave is at a low point because of inattention. Lunaro will not help in any way, and merely shows that DE is willing to put resources into competitive gameplay... but not the game mode whose population has so avidly supported it despite all their administrative, communicative, and other shortcomings.

 

Lunaros was made to players like me. Because it doesn't matter what you say about DE and how "vocal" and "big" the Conclave "community" is, people came to Warframe to play a Coop PvE game, not to kill each other in a arena full of COD kids talking sh#t because they got killed. It doesn't matter how Conclave is good. I will not play it, I have other tons of games when I can shoot other players in the face and get hostilized for it. But Lunaros got my attention and I will play it.

Edited April 23, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

26 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

 I have other tons of games when I can shoot other players in the face

Not to mention those games are way better as they were most likely built with PVP in mind from the beginning and aren't plagued by the problems that interfere with advancement such as hosting migrations and so on and so on.

[Azarakidragon]

Wanna fix the population issues? Dedicated servers. I have a loooooong list of friends or others that I've talked to who say that they don't play because it's a lottery in terms of whether or not you get a laggy host, and then on top of that, you have to deal with host migrations all the time. Setting up dedicated servers probably takes less money and certainly takes a lot less time.

 

[bernad2218]

30 minutes ago, Azarakidragon said:

Wanna fix the population issues? Dedicated servers.

 

Damn straight

[CandyDragon]

Haven't played it, haven't seen it, crucify it anyway just to be safe. 

 

[Burnthesteak87]

Self promotion, self proclamation, elitarism.

I stopped reading and writing on these Forum section by a while and it's been worth and never regretted time.

Also you're forgetting that Warframe is trying to be too many things, it always had been like this and always will be, you won't change anything.

[2035]

When I read this, I hear a voice in the back of my mind saying: "Hang St***!" 

Anyhow, I'm not the game developer of this game, I can't vouch nor deny the choices they've taken cause maybe there's legitimate reasons or certain images they've shrived for or so I believe.

What I won't tolerate is if this was some compromise against their own will and/or for the majority people whom chosen to not partake in Conclave. In every MMOrpg with some form of Player versus player content, Npc action and Pvp are intertwined yet will retain mutuality exclusive properties/items and rewards. The concept of Lunaros breaks this concept and IS guaranteed to undermine the current and existing Conclave both in popularity and dedication in resources unless they plan to make it semi-exclusive or intertwined in one another in someway.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Are you on the same forums, because talk about a straw man argument over the other forums being dead, if a thread isn't moving in both Generals, it's because it's page count is expanding. Please, competitive PVP has had two years and in those two years, it's managed to slow space magic ninjas to a crawl, nerfed hammered weapons, nerf hammered each other, and failed to garner any interest beyond cosmetics and sigils. Let alone stupidly monopolizing Dark Sectors and solar rails like a penny awful mafia crews of thirteen year old candy sellers in Middle School making PVP into a further pariah.  So much so, that the Devs had to shut it down after spending resources on a dojo rooms specifically meant for Solar Rail conflicts with defensive map building for Warlords and alliances. They don't even want to touch on it.

This game has a massive PVE population and Rocket League completely exploded onto the scene with its little radio cars and sheer FUN that it transcends both PVE and PVP players over all platforms while winning critics over and showing that casual PVP is a good bet on resources for DEVs. 

With Lunaros, they don't have to keep gimping down their game for COD and Battlefield FPS players unwilling to budge out of their comfort zones while ticking off Warframe players who came for the speed. They can capitalize on what makes Warframe different, rather than cowtow to slowing down even further and further. 

They need something fun, something casual, something that is a bridge for PVE players to join in, from those numbers you might get a run off of new competitive players looking for combat. While the PVE players have a good a time, maybe change their minds on PVP Warframe in general, and then better resources can be allotted to Conclave.

But that depends on you guys, you can Carebear insult the PVE population, harass the Devs,  moan and whine about Casual gameplay, scheme to try to surplant the PVE population, or you can all get your acts together and make Conclave a welcoming experience with a better sort of player. 

The Devs are being really smart in trying to appeal to the PVE players in Lunaros. I can point to Halo 3 and griffball and the myriad of casual modes and game developed by the Halo community using forge that breathed life into its multiplayer for years for both Casuals and Hardcore players to fall into.

Everything else has eventually failed for PVP competitive Warframe, you can scream we need this and this, but it would have failed anyways because your sitting on a PVE horde shooter. Now the next experiment is casual PVP and what it can bring to the table. It's already gaining interest thanks to riding Rocket League's coattails, it just comes down to how much De learned from that Soccer game. 

[--F--NerevarCM]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Are you on the same forums, because talk about a straw man argument over the other forums being dead, if a thread isn't moving in both Generals, it's because it's page count is expanding. Please, competitive PVP has had two years and in those two years, it's managed to slow space magic ninjas to a crawl, nerfed hammered weapons, nerf hammered each other, and failed to garner any interest beyond cosmetics and sigils. Let alone stupidly monopolizing Dark Sectors and solar rails like a penny awful mafia crews of thirteen year old candy sellers in Middle School making PVP into a further pariah.  So much so, that the Devs had to shut it down after spending resources on a dojo rooms specifically meant for Solar Rail conflicts with defensive map building for Warlords and alliances. They don't even want to touch on it.

This game has a massive PVE population and Rocket League completely exploded onto the scene with its little radio cars and sheer FUN that it transcends both PVE and PVP players over all platforms while winning critics over and showing that casual PVP is a good bet on resources for DEVs. 

With Lunaros, they don't have to keep gimping down their game for COD and Battlefield FPS players unwilling to budge out of their comfort zones while ticking off Warframe players who came for the speed. They can capitalize on what makes Warframe different, rather than cowtow to slowing down even further and further. 

They need something fun, something casual, something that is a bridge for PVE players to join in, from those numbers you might get a run off of new competitive players looking for combat. While the PVE players have a good a time, maybe change their minds on PVP Warframe in general, and then better resources can be allotted to Conclave.

But that depends on you guys, you can Carebear insult the PVE population, harass the Devs,  moan and whine about Casual gameplay, scheme to try to surplant the PVE population, or you can all get your acts together and make Conclave a welcoming experience with a better sort of player. 

The Devs are being really smart in trying to appeal to the PVE players in Lunaros. I can point to Halo 3 and griffball and the myriad of casual modes and game developed by the Halo community using forge that breathed life into its multiplayer for years for both Casuals and Hardcore players to fall into.

Everything else has eventually failed for PVP competitive Warframe, you can scream we need this and this, but it would have failed anyways because your sitting on a PVE horde shooter. Now the next experiment is casual PVP and what it can bring to the table. It's already gaining interest thanks to riding Rocket League's coattails, it just comes down to how much De learned from that Soccer game. 

Amen brother

Edited April 23, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

 I feel that Lunaros sounds like a cheap name immitation of Inaros....

Why couldnt they come up with a better name? Like Lunara, or Lunastra, or Lunaro...

[Katinka]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

 I feel that Lunaros sounds like a cheap name immitation of Inaros....

Why couldnt they come up with a better name? Like Lunara, or Lunastra, or Lunaro...

But.. It is called 'Lunaro'.

[NoeleVeerod]

3 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Are you on the same forums, because talk about a straw man argument over the other forums being dead, if a thread isn't moving in both Generals, it's because it's page count is expanding. Please, competitive PVP has had two years and in those two years, it's managed to slow space magic ninjas to a crawl, nerfed hammered weapons, nerf hammered each other, and failed to garner any interest beyond cosmetics and sigils. Let alone stupidly monopolizing Dark Sectors and solar rails like a penny awful mafia crews of thirteen year old candy sellers in Middle School making PVP into a further pariah.  So much so, that the Devs had to shut it down after spending resources on a dojo rooms specifically meant for Solar Rail conflicts with defensive map building for Warlords and alliances. They don't even want to touch on it.

This game has a massive PVE population and Rocket League completely exploded onto the scene with its little radio cars and sheer FUN that it transcends both PVE and PVP players over all platforms while winning critics over and showing that casual PVP is a good bet on resources for DEVs. 

With Lunaros, they don't have to keep gimping down their game for COD and Battlefield FPS players unwilling to budge out of their comfort zones while ticking off Warframe players who came for the speed. They can capitalize on what makes Warframe different, rather than cowtow to slowing down even further and further. 

They need something fun, something casual, something that is a bridge for PVE players to join in, from those numbers you might get a run off of new competitive players looking for combat. While the PVE players have a good a time, maybe change their minds on PVP Warframe in general, and then better resources can be allotted to Conclave.

But that depends on you guys, you can Carebear insult the PVE population, harass the Devs,  moan and whine about Casual gameplay, scheme to try to surplant the PVE population, or you can all get your acts together and make Conclave a welcoming experience with a better sort of player. 

The Devs are being really smart in trying to appeal to the PVE players in Lunaros. I can point to Halo 3 and griffball and the myriad of casual modes and game developed by the Halo community using forge that breathed life into its multiplayer for years for both Casuals and Hardcore players to fall into.

Everything else has eventually failed for PVP competitive Warframe, you can scream we need this and this, but it would have failed anyways because your sitting on a PVE horde shooter. Now the next experiment is casual PVP and what it can bring to the table. It's already gaining interest thanks to riding Rocket League's coattails, it just comes down to how much De learned from that Soccer game. 

Kinda saddening, y'know, how you talk about PvP players harassing, moaning, whining, when perhaps you forgot that people did the very same thing when PvP was announced. What is this, a stereotype competition?

I can welcome a casual PvP mode despite my first reaction being "what the hell is this joke?", just like I was among those who didn't like PvP and is now playing it almost every day, even in Public lobbies. But if we PvP players are to cooperate with downers of this kind of tune, it will probably take quite a lot of time before we finally get something good for us competitive players AND for the casuals as well.

Can't we all just, seriously speaking, freaking get along?

Edited April 23, 2016 by -Vin-

[ngrazer]

17 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Less than 1% of players play conclave avidly now cuz many people think the game sucks

Honestly I thought PvP in here sucks mostly because there aren't any dedicated servers...

 

[Krysyth]

14 hours ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Lunaros was made to players like me. Because it doesn't matter what you say about DE and how "vocal" and "big" the Conclave "community" is, people came to Warframe to play a Coop PvE game, not to kill each other in a arena full of COD kids talking sh#t because they got killed. It doesn't matter how Conclave is good. I will not play it, I have other tons of games when I can shoot other players in the face and get hostilized for it. But Lunaros got my attention and I will play it.

I think that you have a grave misconception of the Conclave community. Yes, some people talk smack, but it is not even remotely as toxic as you seem to think. Moreover, it offers an extremely different and unique style of arena shooter, which is a large part of its appeal. Your unwillingness to play it should not shape an uninformed public discourse about Conclave.

As for a co-op PvE game, yes, that is certainly one part of Warframe - but PvP can be a part of any massively multiplayer game and function quite well if supported. Look at how PvP was in WoW for years.

14 hours ago, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

Not to mention those games are way better as they were most likely built with PVP in mind from the beginning and aren't plagued by the problems that interfere with advancement such as hosting migrations and so on and so on.

Those games are better because they have resources and attention dedicated to them. Conclave could also be a superb PvP shooter... if DE is willing to build it into one.

9 hours ago, Nariala said:

Haven't played it, haven't seen it, crucify it anyway just to be safe. 

 

Nothing in my original criticism is tied to the idiosyncrasies of a specific game mode, but rather to the state of DE/playerbase interactions and the diversion of resources to alternative, directly competitive projects when they could have been used to improve existing content.

8 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

Self promotion, self proclamation, elitarism.

I stopped reading and writing on these Forum section by a while and it's been worth and never regretted time.

Also you're forgetting that Warframe is trying to be too many things, it always had been like this and always will be, you won't change anything.

This makes no sense whatsoever. No part of my original criticism involves any discourse about player skill or any form of self-aggrandizing rhetoric. That you stopped reading is quite obvious.

[NoeleVeerod]

53 minutes ago, Krysyth said:

I think that you have a grave misconception of the Conclave community. Yes, some people talk smack, but it is not even remotely as toxic as you seem to think. Moreover, it offers an extremely different and unique style of arena shooter, which is a large part of its appeal. Your unwillingness to play it should not shape an uninformed public discourse about Conclave.

As for a co-op PvE game, yes, that is certainly one part of Warframe - but PvP can be a part of any massively multiplayer game and function quite well if supported. Look at how PvP was in WoW for years.

Those games are better because they have resources and attention dedicated to them. Conclave could also be a superb PvP shooter... if DE is willing to build it into one.

I agree completely with this, minus the reference to WoW - but just because I have no experience about WoW whatsoever (never played it, probably not gonna play it).
Especially this: PvP players aren't as toxic as many picture them. Anybody willing to be proven wrong should hang out with those guys that genuinely care about PvP, instead of hanging out with the salty kids that are found in every game (even PvE games, FYI).

I feel like adding this (already said it but it never hurts): nobody is saying that PvP should take over PvE. And if Lunaro turns out to be cool, good for everyone I guess! Just don't overlook Conclave and leave its potential to waste.

[HoakinBlackforge]

1 hour ago, Krysyth said:

I think that you have a grave misconception of the Conclave community. Yes, some people talk smack, but it is not even remotely as toxic as you seem to think. Moreover, it offers an extremely different and unique style of arena shooter, which is a large part of its appeal. Your unwillingness to play it should not shape an uninformed public discourse about Conclave.

Those games are better because they have resources and attention dedicated to them. Conclave could also be a superb PvP shooter... if DE is willing to build it into one.

THIS, is so wrong.

Conclave right now doesnt feel unique at all compared to other arena shooters. Abilities, being able to go full melee, the access to modify your weapons as you want while combining all of that together is what made pvp unique in the first place.

Right now? Melee is dead (air melee its just a excuse), no other other way of playing is encouraged (lack of counterplay), and abilities are mostly worthless. (I barely see people use abilities)

And pvp in warframe right now HAS NO CHANCE to become another stupid Esports competitive game, stop dreaming, because we have enough already with CSGO. Stop the elitism already because you are becoming like a plague, forcing others to play the way they dont want to.

Edited April 23, 2016 by HoakinBlackforge

[CandyDragon]

8 hours ago, Krysyth said:

Nothing in my original criticism is tied to the idiosyncrasies of a specific game mode, but rather to the state of DE/playerbase interactions and the diversion of resources to alternative, directly competitive projects when they could have been used to improve existing content.

You have no real evidence to show that they aren't also working on conclave still though. You can be concerned, sure. But flat out going "how dare you do another mode while my unpopular mode continues to be unpopular, why won't you magically fix all the core problems" isn't really good feedback. 

 

[Auramaru]

Lunaro will be big.

It hits on something that I've mentioned a few times on the forums, which is this "thought/behavior conditioning" that PVE teaches players:
-You don't die often.
-You kill a lot of S#&$.
-You work as a team.

And Conclave, as it always has been and how it is now, goes completely against those conditioned thoughts of Warframe. You die a lot in conclave, you aren't the "big, bad-&#! hero" in conclave. Conclave doesn't make you feel like a key component to saving the universe, it dips you into the vile slime that is competitive gaming. It's such a rude awakening from the fantasy which is "the Warframe Grind".

Something that I think you, @Krysyth, have figured out is that Lunaro will kill Conclave. Not only figuratively, but Lunaro (if executed properly) will make the Conclave system a ghost town and another long-forgotten system that the developers will have tossed out the window.

Personally, I think DE has realized that PVP in the form of a competitive atmosphere simply doesn't match the tone of their game. Which is great because it's true, and their vision of a proper PVP system will finally come through. But it's also a horrific nail in the coffin for anyone who has a competitive mindset. 

Let me be clear: If you don't think DE would delete Conclave as is, you're wrong.

Hundreds of players played old conclave and loved it for the competitive, whacky nature of it. DE removed it, trashed it, and deleted it overnight without addressing those who loved the gamemode at all. They did not acknowledge that anyone played/liked the old gamemode ONCE throughout the entire process of Conclave 2.0 being shoved into the game.

And before anyone says I'm getting ahead of myself, simply look at all the dead "systems" DE has left as a trail of evidence. Syndicate hasn't been updated at all for months. Focus hasn't been updated. These are BIG, integral systems of gameplay - and you don't think they'd drop PVP, a non-essential gamemode like it was nothing? Get real.

TL;DR: Players receiving highly-valued PVP rewards for non-PVP gameplay is trashy and lame. Lunaro will be the inevitable demise of Conclave, and DE needs to (but probably won't) address the concerns of people within the PVP community FOR ONCE IN THE HISTORY OF THE PVP COMMUNITY about the future of the gamemode they LOVE.

GG DE, Step on Conclave again without addressing the people who actually like it.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Aura