Tonkor Balancing (Nerf) discussion..

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

This game s confuse , why chars have skills if players just want kill with guns? Why large dmg area weapons with lot players just want kill with skills?  Why this dam kill competition if game s a co op ?  I talk serious , why DE dont define a clear path? I hate this score competition , dont have any real utility , change this for a intelligent squad Grade points, all gain the same , based in stealth, time, alarms, kills , something for team work 

[polarity]

How about instead of self-damage, give it self-knockdown, or better yet, rag-doll followed by knockdown ;)

Edited May 14, 2016 by polarity

[NightElve]

15 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

There's HUGE megathread on this, it's not a small % but I see your point. You want to leave people to limit themselves to a weapon since it's sooo gooood cause it doesn't hurt anybody else. That's fine and all but this game lives off of variety and different things to try and have fun with. It's just not good for the game :/ The true cancer in the forums is people who ignorantly brush off others without trying to understand the issue at hand like you.

In any case, you seem to be fixated on your opinion that this is a minor issue from a few people so I'm not gonna continue this conversation, it's a waste of time. Just know over 19,000 people have been discussing this on one thread alone and the vast majority agree that some change needs to happen.

You want to leave people to (((limit themselves))), Lol! now your are supporting the nerf/balance because you want other players to stop limiting themselves, i'll continue limiting myself with the tonkor, make all the numbers you want, fact remains majority of the players also don't support this thread, this thread accounts to ((0.02-0.1%)) of players, Tonkor won't be nerfed, because of one this reasons:

1. Most players play for fun
2. Most players are not obsessed with having greater kills when going for runs (never happened when playing with friends)
3. When playing with friends not a single weapon is boring, you can shuffle and go for match.
4. Most players are enjoy the game's content as it is, when having fun, and are not concerned about complexities of a weapon being too OP, as long as it is fun to use.
5. Most players play passively, launch the game close and go to college or work, they dont visit forums, for the other players, (i started visiting Forums after guys started complaining of nerfs and the sort, and i heard forums were responsible and not devs).
6. most players here, are not after pursuing majors in this game, most posts here are analysing the game tooooo much, that it doesnt feel like a game anymore.
7. There is nothing to discuss here solutions;

a) Nerf your own weapon by removing crit mods.

b) Force DE to nerf it by spamming the Forum page.

c) choose other weapons.

d) tell your squad mates or clan mates to stop using Tonkor as it is limiting them, and force them to use other weapons.

e) if a new player requests for an OP weapon in warframe that can help him be viable to endgame content ( dont suggest Tonkor to him).

f) also tell other players using that weapon is not that good for the game.

does any of this make sense???

(( MR 20 btw our clan/friends has a  of high level players to mid and beginners, everyone has his favorite weapon, and we are pretty much ok with it))

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by NightElve

[-dicht.Amducias-]

20 hours ago, clemza said:

Just buff the other weapons.

I never thought i will find someone who thinks the same. God bless you.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, (PS4)AngelShur said:

Ok, I believe that Tonkor doesn't need a balance. Maybe a slight rework but no Nerfing (Hate to use the word Nerf) balance. (Will Update with good rework suggestions)

 

Don't hate me or hang me on this one, I've just been filtering through the Thread and came up with the Following what you fellow Tenno are suggesting:

1 The Tonkor needs to be MR locked at at least 8 <-- For Sure

2. The Tonkor needs to do Self-Damage, It's too easy right now <--- But then, I'll suggest it have the granates stick to the surface instead of bouncing around (Sorry for those who like to jump on them granates) After thoroughly reading through the thread, I must agree if I'm honest, that this option must be implemented otherwise it's broken. Honest is honest. 

Stats-wise, I find (imo) that the Tonkor is a rather great and much needed weapon for the broken Scaling we're currently dealing with. <--- Until this is fixed, we need to keep Tonkor stats the way they are. 

 

Please share what you feel and think. keep it civil please...

no

this is a coop-game, let the devs be focused on different things like good timelines for their updates and more new content as a new planet, a new race and this

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, TheBright888 said:

Last thing Warframe needs is for all weapons to get 100% balanced to the point where they all do the same DPS, and have some minor differences in range, recoil, mag capacity, fire rate and accuracy.

That's not what balance is. Do you even know what game balance is? 

2 hours ago, DuskLegendary said:

I personally love the Tonkor, why does it need a nerf? I mean, aside from the obvious of it being able to red crit for tons of damage and destroy lv. 100 mobs.

That isn't a good enough reason for you? It's also available at MR5,outclasses every launcher in every way, encourages horrible game play and actively ruins the experience of other players with it. 

 

2 hours ago, DuskLegendary said:

.What I'm saying is, if you nerf the Tonkor, won't everyone just move on to something like the Sancti Tigris, Vaykor Hek, Synoid Simulor?... Then if those become more overused than they already are now and everyone drops their Tonkors in favor of those weapons, what then? Are people going to cry out for a nerf on the forums just as they're doing with the Tonkor all the time?

The Vay Hek is pretty much a better Hek. 8 shots isn't going to ruin anyone's day with that reload. The S. Simulor is actually as brain dead as the Tonkor, just weaker and wonkier, so let's say for the sake of argument it gets nerfed. The S. Tigris is the upgrade to the Tigris no one asked for. Even if all of these were nerfed, we move on to Soma and Boltor Prime and maybe the Amprex. After that...... What? Nothing. The problem isn't the kills these weapons get, the problem is the kills that everyone else is able to get after these things. The Hek can kill at least 8 things before reloading. That's all at the same group, most of the time, and everyone else can have their merry way shooting at the same group. Same with the S. Tigris. Even the Soma and Broltor aren't quick enough at this point (mostly) to really prevent anyone from playing through the games. The Amprex and S.Simulor however, are very powerful and have large enough AoE to make aiming superfluous and therefore make it difficult for anyone else to play with those using it. 

 

2 hours ago, DuskLegendary said:

?

I think it's fun to have overpowered weapons here and there, if everything was just perfectly balanced, what would be the fun in that? 

Game balance doesn't mean that everything is the same in every aspect all the time, jeez. It means that all content is proportional to all the other content it interacts with. Look at this graph:

The two straight lines are the limits of balanced content, and the space between them represents the range at which balanced content can fall under. This isn't the best graph, but it's the best I could do on short notice. The Tonkor would fall somewhere near the B in Boredom. 

1 hour ago, Extroah said:

I'd say that, instead of nerfing the Tonkor, it would make more sense to just give all the not-so-powerfull weapons a buff. This would make less weapons obsolete and also would make us go a bit further in terms of end game content. 

Why buff literal hundreds of weapons when nerfing less than 20 weapons would get you the exact same result? 

 

1 hour ago, StolenLife said:

So, this debate will never ends. There is no perfect balance! One gun will always have advantages or disadvantages over other gun.

There's a pretty broad line between perfect balance and everything should be ridiculously OP. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by TheBrsrkr
Autocorrect, you so silly

[(PSN)AngelShur]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

That's not what balance is. Do you even know what game balance is? 

That isn't a good enough reason for you? It's also available at MR5,outclasses every launcher in every way, encourages horrible game play and actively ruins the experience of other players with it. 

 

The Vay Hek is pretty much a better Hek. 8 shots isn't going to ruin anyone's day with that reload. The S. Simulor is actually as brain dead as the Tonkor, just weaker and wonkier, so let's say for the sake of argument it gets nerfed. The S. Tigris is the upgrade to the Tigris no one asked for. Even if all of these were nerfed, we move on to Soma and Boltor Prime and maybe the Amprex. After that...... What? Nothing. The problem isn't the kills these weapons get, the problem is the kills that everyone else is able to get after these things. The Hek can kill at least 8 things before reloading. That's all at the same group, most of the time, and everyone else can have their merry way shooting at the same group. Same with the S. Tigris. Even the Soma and Broltor aren't quick enough at this point (mostly) to really prevent anyone from playing through the games. The Amprex and S.Simulor however, are very powerful and have large enough AoE to make aiming superfluous and therefore make it difficult for anyone else to play with those using it. 

 

Game balance doesn't mean that everything is the same in every aspect all the time, jeez. It means that all content is proportional to all the other content it interacts with. Look at this graph:

The two straight lines are the limits of balanced content, and the space between them represents the range at which balanced content can fall under. This isn't the best graph, but it's the best I could do on short notice. The Tonkor would fall somewhere near the B in Boredom. 

Why buff literal hundreds of weapons when nerf ingredients less than 20 weapons would get you the exact same result? 

 

There's a pretty broad line between perfect balance and everything should be ridiculously OP. 

Thanks! I also like the chart, awesome!

[TheBright888]

50 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

- Assumes and implies the reason DE made a lot of money is because of no balance.

- Assumes to know the details of DE's system.

- Assumes people will give a crap if he stops playing due to balance passes.

 

You should just do yourself a favor and leave now. DE will continue to fix and balance things.

Tells me a guy that obviously likes grinding the forums more than the actual game? Play the game instead of posting 5k posts^^ Or are you literally that bored?

"never touch a running system"

That's all I am saying.

No I wont leave, because this game wont ever be balanced^^ DE knows that OPness is what makes Warframe fun. Thats why they gave us Mesa, Tonkor, Naramon, Zenurik, Loki, Ash Bladestorm ect... because they know that being OP is fun and awesome.

And its a team game, a PvE game, why would you balance things? There is no reason. All you would do is make it boring, which would decrease player engagement, would make the grind boring and unrewarding, and in the end would make it just another generic shooter.

And yes for some stuff to be OP, some stuff needs to be weak like limbo or Braton ect. So stop being boring. If you want a boring shooter go play Destiny or The Division where killing stuff takes 4h and you can grind out your 2% bonuses.

Edited May 14, 2016 by TheBright888

[RX-3DR]

It's funny how people always believe that the Sorties are meant to easy because the Tonkor makes it so.

[Vesiga]

I wouldn't say to make it do more self dmg as it's little effect is the nade jumping. 

making it do less dmg though makes it in the trash pile with the rest of the explosion weapons who can kill higher level enemies with ease too. (have you seen that ogris gif of the oxium drone butting in?)

Rather. lets amp its mastery rank requirement to where it belongs. 12 or higher. 
its fine where its at, as it does the damage of our MR12 weapons.. mostly on par with Synoid and Sancti. 

if it gets nerfed well.. ill just shelve it forever and go back to those weapons? you gonna nerf those too? Sorry I like my guns over ability spamming in a corner? 

It's a PvE game, yes the devs want you to try every weapon out, THATS THE POINT OF MR LOCKS SO YOU DONT GO OOH BEST GUN STAYING WITH IT FOREVER.


so.. make it MR 12 - 15 to use it. then done dealio

Edited May 14, 2016 by Vesiga

[Vesiga]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)AngelShur said:

The problem isn't the kills these weapons get, the problem is the kills that everyone else is able to get after these things. The Hek can kill at least 8 things before reloading. That's all at the same group, most of the time, and everyone else can have their merry way shooting at the same group

Punch through is a mandatory mod to have 90% of the time, so those 8 shots become over 50 kills. 1-2 bullets annihilating that group. 

also i've been able to out-kill tonkor users with Dex Syb by over 500 kills more than them as the nades have travel time while my pew pew punch through is instant. 

now lets take a look at acid shells for sobek. 
This mod scales pretty high level for average player play. Killing a whole massive group from just killing a heavy gunner and making it go boom. 

then there's things like the Torid, you dont even have to hit a enemy, shooting a corner makes everything die as they turn it leaving no kills for others in that spot. 

the list can go on, from how many weapons can kill steal. but then there's also PLENTY of abilities that do the same. 

but even non-aoe weapons can easily out preform kills of AoE weapons, its just more effort. 

but isn't that the point of a AoE weapon? faster kills in a large area? 

Edited May 14, 2016 by Vesiga

[Vesiga]

32 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It's also available at MR5

which is why I propose it be raised to 12 - 15 as its damage is in that range. So then all these new players don't ONLY use it. 

nerfing it down will just cause backlash, or people shelving it for the next super murder weapon.

[--F--NerevarCM]

22 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

 

"never touch a running system"

That's all I am saying.

No I wont leave, because this game wont ever be balanced^^ DE knows that OPness is what makes Warframe fun

Yeah, Grand Chase devs followed the same line of thinking and developing. I wonder how good that game is now....

They added a skill to each character that kills any enemy in the map regardless of level. Oh and 1 character had as skill that kills any boss, even bosses with invencibility phases with 1 hit. But they said: "Its a PVE game" "Never touch a running system" 

1 month later: All Grand Chase servers closes.

Edited May 14, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[StolenLife]

Okay. The main thing that all expressed their opinions on this topic. Lets developers do what they want, their game - their rules. If it will be nerfed, i silently accept this change. Wait and see :)

[(PSN)Cwellann]

34 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Game balance doesn't mean that everything is the same in every aspect all the time, jeez. It means that all content is proportional to all the other content it interacts with. Look at this graph:

The two straight lines are the limits of balanced content, and the space between them represents the range at which balanced content can fall under. This isn't the best graph, but it's the best I could do on short notice. The Tonkor would fall somewhere near the B in Boredom.

Oh wow.  Well done for bringing Flow state up.  I'm staying out of this thread because it's just the "Let's Fix Easy Mode" flame war all over again, but I just had to give some applause to this.

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I don't care how you feel about it, because how you feel about it doesn't affect it in the slightest. Is there a magic 25% damage boost when you like it? Is there a magic 50% accuracy nerf when you don't like it? No. Then why bother bringing it up? 

 

Comments like this is why nothing ever gets done. It isn't "reality" to expect to be unable to play the game in a random match. It isn't "reality" to have a weapon able to completely outstrip all the other other high tier weapons at MR5. It isn't "reality" when you think you having fun is more important than everyone else having fun. It's selfishness, plain and simple. You're not more important than anyone else here. Everyone should be able to play together, not circle around you for the scraps of enemies you leave behind. 

 

And then we nerf that, and then they move on again, then they nerf that. This happens about 12 times, then suddenly you're out of OP weapons. Suddenly there's an actual choice in the matter and getting a lot of kills depends more on player skill than gear checks. 

Literally no one cares about how many kills you get, as long as they are able to participate. If they don't get to participate, then they complain. 50 kills in a match with nearly a thousand enemies isn't participation, but it's what some people end up with after playing with a squad of Tonkor users. When people do nothing but run around collecting loot and killing the odd stray enemy, they're not having fun. If they're not having fun playing the game, what do you think they'll do, stay silent and think that you're having fun so it's fine? No. They complain. That's reality. 

The Tonkor is available at MR5. That isn't "Higher player" level. Yet people at MR21 have problems dealing with it. Does this seem fair to you. Is this someone being outplayed by an MR5? The skill a player has only matters if the game is balanced for skill. If you get endgame damage at the beginning, with a pretty easy to use no skill weapon with negligible downsides that deal with themselves and a freaking aim guide, no amount of skill will stop baby's first rocket launcher from killing everything. 

It isn't about the ending, it's about having fun. Running around collecting loot isn't fun. 

Ohhhhh I hit a nerve there eh. Its okay I wont embarrass you anymore in front of people. I just said peopel have their own choices, let low level players get an OP weapon, it makes the game fun. And you just contradicted own point there. You said the game is about fun , so let the people have fun. And if others have a problem they can go join another squad. Don't push off your anger on me, it is funny though.

[Currilicious]

15 hours ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Wouldn't powercreeping every weapon in the game make a game boring?
What would you do if after a few hours in the game you received a button to call in a nuke every 5 seconds obliterating every enemies on the map to complete the objective?
And following that train of thought, what if you had a machine gun that could become just as powerful as that nuke button just to make them "Comparatively fair"
But you're right, in a game where enemies are AI, what's the problem if you have a powerful weapon, it just makes the game easier for everyone. ( Notice Sarcasm Please. )

So with that said, why don't you just throw away that nuke button into the void to make sure it never comes back again and just stick with a normal machine gun that doesn't fire a beam of magic missiles and unicorn to kill your enemies.

That's exactly my point.

There's nothing wrong with people preferring an easy game. If you don't want "an easy game", you can choose not to use it. And, people that want that, can continue using it.

If you think Tonkor or weapons like it are "a button to call in a nuke every 5 seconds obliterating every enemies on the map to complete the objective" then I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Because, I feel it's waste of time to attempt and address that parabole.

 

11 hours ago, Xekrin said:

I really don't think its the fact that Tonkor does neglible self damage, so little that its not even a concern or a threat or a worry.  I believe it is the fact that there are so many other weapons that DO do self damage and to play the six year old card It's not fair!.  I would love to use kulstar without fear of blowing myself up instantly if I aim badly or merely forget I have secondary equipped, or worse it stays equipped after I am revived and blow myself up AGAIN.

So really if its a choice between "give tonkor self damage too!!!" or "remove all self damage!!!!", which would be chosen by DE?  Although they certainly shown they are capable of completely ignoring this fact for so long, the community isn't likely to let it go any time soon if ever.  Eventually they will have to do something about it.

Already gave my suggestion but ultimately it is up to DE.

They should just do an official poll that decides the issue and be done with it.  And it should be a clearly visible poll provided in game so that those who don't visit forums or watch devstreams can vote as well.

Just like they said in devstream, Tonkor is the draco of weapons, or Draco is the tonkor of nodes, in either case something will need to be done about it at some point.

 

I think reducing self damage for others would be better.

First, people spend time and effort to build a weapon, I feel it is unfair to diminish their efforts. And, people who enjoy those other weapons but feels frustrated by the self damage get to have some fun.

 

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Is evident how this weapon and synoid simulor disturb the game 

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

Just now, (PS4)xKAIOWAx said:

Is evident how this weapon and synoid simulor disturb the game 

It's not disturb but more overused

[Vesiga]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)xKAIOWAx said:

Is evident how this weapon and synoid simulor disturb the game 

this is like the "pls nerf boltor prime" discussion years ago. (it never got nerfed) 

as I mentioned above there are plenty of other AoE weapons with the same ""kill stealing"" as these weapons, just no one notices because they're not over used.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Vesiga

[Currilicious]

10 hours ago, Magneu said:

Because not using something (spoiler: I have, five forma's worth) is indicative of not having a valid, fact-backed opinion. 

Claiming it doesn't need a nerf without backing up that claim is just a waste of time.

Go read the other thread on this. It has all the current arguments laid out over and over for your reading pleasure.

Because it's fun to some people to see stuff blow up?

Do you intend to come up with the math and facts of what makes my game fun?

 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Cwellann said:

Oh wow.  Well done for bringing Flow state up.  I'm staying out of this thread because it's just the "Let's Fix Easy Mode" flame war all over again, but I just had to give some applause to this.

I normally stay out of this kind of threads. All I see are the sludge being spewed from some of these self-entitled people that want everyone to conform or else.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Currilicious

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

1 minute ago, Vesiga said:

this is like the "pls nerf boltor prime" discussion years ago. (it never got nerfed) 

I know right.

Edited May 14, 2016 by (PS4)Nukerxero123

[TheBrsrkr]

3 minutes ago, Vesiga said:

Punch through is a mandatory mod to have 90% of the time, so those 8 shots become over 50 kills. 1-2 bullets annihilating that group. 

But the 8 shots themselves still take time to fire, which means other players still get a chance to actually do something. Punch through also only works in a straight line, while the Tonkor works in a radius. In cases where enemies aren't in a straight line, which happens a lot more often than people give credit for, everyone gets a chance to kill something. Again, it isn't about the amount of kills anyone gets, it's the level of participation everyone gets to experience. You're still going to be out killed or whatever, but it isn't a problem then. 

I've yet to see the Sobek mod in action, so I don't know about that one way or the other, but as for the Torid, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Enemies simply do not stay in the area for long. You have to shoot 4 or 5 of them to really get results, and it's only for that group, nit every other. Also, it's damage over time, meaning anyone can shoot them while they're dying. 

15 minutes ago, Vesiga said:

but even non-aoe weapons can easily out preform kills of AoE weapons, its just more effort. 

but isn't that the point of a AoE weapon? faster kills in a large area? 

Faster kills in a large area, sure, while dealing with all the other problems of launchers. Problems the Tonkor doesn't have. Also, there's fast killing, then there's half a million damage, man. That's just insane. 

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Nukerxero123 said:

Ohhhhh I hit a nerve there eh. Its okay I wont embarrass you anymore in front of people. I just said peopel have their own choices, let low level players get an OP weapon, it makes the game fun. And you just contradicted own point there. You said the game is about fun , so let the people have fun. And if others have a problem they can go join another squad. Don't push off your anger on me, it is funny though.

 

57 minutes ago, NightElve said:

You want to leave people to (((limit themselves))), Lol! now your are supporting the nerf/balance because you want other players to stop limiting themselves, i'll continue limiting myself with the tonkor, make all the numbers you want, fact remains majority of the players also don't support this thread, this thread accounts to ((0.02-0.1%)) of players, Tonkor won't be nerfed, because of one this reasons:

1. Most players play for fun
2. Most players are not obsessed with having greater kills when going for runs (never happened when playing with friends)
3. When playing with friends not a single weapon is boring, you can shuffle and go for match.
4. Most players are enjoy the game's content as it is, when having fun, and are not concerned about complexities of a weapon being too OP, as long as it is fun to use.
5. Most players play passively, launch the game close and go to college or work, they dont visit forums, for the other players, (i started visiting Forums after guys started complaining of nerfs and the sort, and i heard forums were responsible and not devs).
6. most players here, are not after pursuing majors in this game, most posts here are analysing the game tooooo much, that it doesnt feel like a game anymore.
7. There is nothing to discuss here solutions;

a) Nerf your own weapon by removing crit mods.

b) Force DE to nerf it by spamming the Forum page.

c) choose other weapons.

d) tell your squad mates or clan mates to stop using Tonkor as it is limiting them, and force them to use other weapons.

e) if a new player requests for an OP weapon in warframe that can help him be viable to endgame content ( dont suggest Tonkor to him).

f) also tell other players using that weapon is not that good for the game.

does any of this make sense???

(( MR 20 btw our clan/friends has a  of high level players to mid and beginners, everyone has his favorite weapon, and we are pretty much ok with it))

 

Why can't more people be like you.

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Lol you want compare a assault rifle with kill em all area easy mode weapons ?