Tonkor Balancing (Nerf) discussion..

[(PSN)Redemption_015]

6 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

The problem is that the second someone says "nerf" everyone loses their collective minds because they only see it for its negative connotation and not the overall big picture, as your post here makes evident.

The overall big picture is that there will always be a weapon labelled OP by the community and that DE can't just sort this problem out by balancing and buffing. They need to take a look at the whole damage system and unfortunately they don't seem interested in doing that right now. Only then will this viscous cycle come to an end and we can all enjoy a new an improved damage system. That's the bigger picture. These nerfs and buffs are just band-aids.

[Chipputer]

3 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

So how is adding self-damage in its current incarnation going to be "fun"?

Adding self damage would make it fall in line with other launcher weapons. The point is that you have to know how to use them to not kill yourself. Stop using your primary launcher for everything right next to you, start using it for groups at a distance, and pull out your secondary or melee to take care of those closer up units.

It would add some variety and flavor to your gameplay, rather than, "blow everything's face up 100% of the time." That doesn't sound fun to you?

5 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

I get it, you want Tonkor gone, so we'll go with Sancti Tigris. Or Synoid Simulor. Nerf these? Hello Boltor Pr again! Nice to see you after all this time. So what are you trying to achieve exactly besides making people's formas go waste?

The implication that changing one weapon leads to changing all of them is called a slippery slope. Yes, other weapons have balancing issues. No, none of those weapons are the Tonkor. There will always be someone who wants things nerfed-- crying out loud there are people who want bows nerfed-- but the developers aren't going to simply nerf things just because the community wants them to. Tonkor being looked at is a combination of play statistics, forum feedback, reddit feedback, twitter feedback, and direct videos posted by Warframe Youtubers who specifically have highlighted how overpowered the Tonkor truly is.

Looking at this in such a narrow minded way hurts more than it helps.

[Currilicious]

6 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Did you forget what you posted? 

Playing solo in a multiplayer game when you don't want to negatively affects your game experience. It is impossible to find a solution where nobody gets affected

If it is possible, I'm sure DE would like to hear it. 

If you hate other people for not playing the game your way, play solo, no need to change the game to suit you.

[EvilChaosKnight]

37 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Adding self damage would make it fall in line with other launcher weapons.

Okay you walked right into it. I didn't want to post this line before but you've forced my hand. *Inhale* *Exhale*

Other. Launchers. Su*k. A*s. I hope you are happy. When I started, they were great. They had the risk but you had the reward also. Nowadays you have Nullicancer, Bursas, Manics, a ton of infested buffs, lvl 60+ dailies, ammo nerf almost every launcher and so on. So unless other launchers become worth their risks or have said risks lowered, using them as a balancing standpoint is like using MK1 Braton as a standard for assault rifle balancing.

41 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

The point is that you have to know how to use them to not kill yourself. Stop using your primary launcher for everything right next to you, start using it for groups at a distance, and pull out your secondary or melee to take care of those closer up units.

You know, when you play this game for over 2.5k hours like I do you would have a very clear separation in weapons and preferences. Sometimes it's just fun to mess around with something like a bow. It's a nice experience which turns extremely sour if you try and go out of the "comfort zone" game provides. But sometimes you need a tool to get job done in game. Tonkor is one such tool and has bonus points of being fun and satisfying to use unlike Soma, Boltor or Simulor. Ash Bladestorm spam is kinda fun to watch but gets old eventually.

Oh and by the way. I seriously doubt that with Nullies all over the place + current map design you'd ever get much of a "distance" on your mission.

50 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

The implication that changing one weapon leads to changing all of them is called a slippery slope. Yes, other weapons have balancing issues. No, none of those weapons are the Tonkor. There will always be someone who wants things nerfed-- crying out loud there are people who want bows nerfed-- but the developers aren't going to simply nerf things just because the community wants them to. Tonkor being looked at is a combination of play statistics, forum feedback, reddit feedback, twitter feedback, and direct videos posted by Warframe Youtubers who specifically have highlighted how overpowered the Tonkor truly is.

Looking at this in such a narrow minded way hurts more than it helps.

Oh please. I think trying to push for balance changes with no concern for others is a lot more narrow-minded. And I could understand if balance suggestions at least tried to make some sense like "lower base DMG" or "Make it have 1 round per clip (hi, M79)" or "Make it MR15" or a combination of the above. Nope, you and others go for the most unfun, irritating and downright broken solution possible to all but remove Tonkor from general use. That is NOT balancing.

Also I've made this suggestion in one of the Tonkor topics before, you could try it too. Go to simulation, spawn lvl 60 Grineer, see how many Ogris rockets it takes to kill a basic lancer. Then fire same Ogris under your feet. See how well things work from here.

[TheBrsrkr]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

"The Acrid was plain broken". That is the very definition of personal opinion. 

Noice to quoque you got there. Except it isn't. The Acrid got to do all 4 elemental damages as it's base damage, while it already had a high proc chance at the time and elemental base damage. An enemy would be hit by every proc at once, which made it far more powerful than was reasonable. Therefore, broken. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

. Everything else did get buffed and look where we are now; asking for more nerfs to said buffs. Something else gets nerfed, something else gets buffed. A continuous waste of time

None of this is about damage 2.0, though. No one's asking for a nerf because of Damage 2.0. At least be honest. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

.The Tonkor isn't the ultimate weapon of MD. 

Got an MD level that crosses level 50? Any weapon that isn't one of the early game training weapons you get can perform at this level. And even if that did count, what then, care to name ten more game modes it doesn't dominate where damage actually matters? Because I'd love to hear it. Actually, no I wouldn't, because it's already been discussed in the 48 page thread below us 50 times. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

 It has drawbacks on any other frame apart from a Jetstream Zehpyr. The two round mag coupled with the facts that you can't manually detonate the grenades and have a good chance of missing the target counts as balance in my book. The trajectory is awful IMO, which is why I never use grenade launchers. 

Why are we still pretending this matters? You can get as close as you'd like since you can't kill yourself with it,and you have an aim guide. Missing the target is your fault, not the game's. A 2 shot clip would matter if you didn't get a 2 second reload with it, shorter than any other launcher and a fast as most other guns. And when you DO hit, everything dies in a 5m radius. The benefits are much, much greater than the drawbacks. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

. You say that moving the issue around isn't a solution and yet you are doing just that by asking for an adjustment. 

By removing the issue, I'm moving around the issue? What is reading comprehension? 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

 and yet you are doing just that by asking for an adjustment. The mantle of 'OP' will always be passed to something else. The issue will never be solved unless DE sit down, take a deep breath and put their full attention on the current system.

 

Sure, if you don't know what overpowered means. If other guns can reasonably compete with a weapon outside of their particular niches, it's not overpowered. Only a few weapons actually do this. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

You're right I don't spend much time in the feedback section because I generally don't care about it. But the fact still remains that the Boltor and Soma Prime are the king of rifles and they have never been changed. 

"it's never been changed so it's fine " is a piss poor excuse in Warframe, where literally everything can and has changed many times. Molding, damage, movement and enemies have changed many times over the years,and sometimes it has taken years. Weapons can too. Think Supra. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

. And nerfing the listed weapons will simply make people fall back on the Soma and Boltor Prime until a new powerful weapon comes out. Round and round we go in a never ending cycle of nerf and buff. It's pointless and stupid. I have no doubt I'll see you in six months time, whining about something else that you view as 'too OP'. 

What if the Boltor and Soma Prime were nerfed too? What then? You fail to realize that there is a limited amount of overpowered weapons. There is no bloody cycle, there's always been a top and it's only been added to and rarely taken away from. When the Supra got buffed, was it OP? When Burst weapons got buffed, were they OP? When the R. Ballistica was buffed, was it OP? Some cycle this is. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

. Also where on earth did you get the notion that the game had changed to suit that small group of weapons you listed?  

Take the top tier weapons of the past, the Soma and Boltor Prime, and stick them in a Sortie 3 for Corpus or Grineer. Do the same with any of the weapons I listed. Which would you have an easier time with? Now do the same with top tier weapons before that, lie the Braton Prime and Amprex. You have an even harder time. And so on, and so forth. The challenge is built around the strongest gear available, and the rest is left behind as a result. This is power creep. It is not a good thing. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

  Your point? You're shouting out your personal preference of the Tonkor getting a nerf so it can't be used to out-damage you anymore. 

 

Nice strawman you got there. Did I say out damage? Quote where I said that. Did I say that personal preference is irrelevant to game balance or mechanics? Yes, I did. Did I say that the Tonkor is OP because it does more damage than my favorite gun, or did I say it encourages power creep, breaks the power curve, forces people out of a match, something you yourself admitted to doing, and trivializes content? I'm sure I remember saying that somewhere. Try harder. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

What do you mean by 'kicked out'? No one is kicking you out at all. I'm not calling you lazy for your choice of weapon, I'm calling you lazy simply because you can't be asked to move into a separate room of enemies away from other players. 

So, you're calling me lazy because the way I'm supposed to play on a team is to not interact with the team at all? Gee, golly, I'm not sure why I ever tried that! Probably because I caught secondhand stupid just looking at this.  If I have to go to a different room to play the game at all, why am I even there with you? I might as well play solo for all it matters, but Warframe is not a solo game. Moving to another room for no other reason than one player has a gun that can do the job of 4 people in 2 or 3 shots is not good teamplay. It's not teamplay at all. Somehow, in your mind, other people wanting to play on the same team, together, are lazy. 

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Redemption_015 said:

. What exactly do you wish to gain out of multiplayer if all you do is whine about other players? You don't like how other players are killing more enemies than you, go into a different room maybe or actually put effort into out-damaging them. 

I'm not talking about players, I'm talking about the Tonkor. I don't think you know what teamwork is. 

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, Currilicious said:

If you hate other people for not playing the game your way, play solo, no need to change the game to suit you.

Notice how you're really just recycling your arguments from earlier comments. Come up with something new to say, or stop commenting. 

[Chipputer]

20 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Other. Launchers. Su*k. A*s.

Irrelevant.

20 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

You know, when you play this game for over 2.5k hours like I do

I don't care how long you've been playing, nor am I going to play the game of who has more hours. Let's leave it at the fact that we both have more than enough to have this discussion.

 

21 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

sometimes you need a tool to get job done in game. Tonkor is one such tool and has bonus points of being fun and satisfying to use

The epitome of opinion. Your opinion on how it feels to use the weapon doesn't change the fact that it's unbalanced. There are plenty of other tools available to do the same thing but the problem is that the Tonkor is leagues more effective than these other tools, even when compared to the SySim, as at least that has a short effective range.

 

23 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

I think trying to push for balance changes with no concern for others is a lot more narrow-minded

And I think trying to push back against those balance changes with the same disregard for others is just as narrow minded.

 

24 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Also I've made this suggestion in one of the Tonkor topics before, you could try it too. Go to simulation, spawn lvl 60 Grineer, see how many Ogris rockets it takes to kill a basic lancer. Then fire same Ogris under your feet. See how well things work from here.

This is a problem inherent with the balance of self damage and has nothing to do with the Tonkor or Ogris. That can easily be changed with a few tweaks. Immediately assuming all changes done to a weapon are done in a vacuum, with no regard to the other mechanics inherent in the game, is one of the worst things you can do. It's narrow minded.

[dual1020]

Instead of giving an outright "nerf" why not change the mechanic of the weapon?

My suggestion would be:

1. -Same damage as usual
2. -Reduce the ammo to 1, Increase reload speed to 2.5 (this way, while it can still do massive damage, increases the time to deal damage aka slows the dps)
3. - Remove the aiming assist (increases the learning curve of the weapon, adds punishment to poor accuracy) [just like killing floor's M79]
4. - Add a fuse delay, the time it takes to detonate to impact should be around 2 seconds and not more than 3 seconds. If it hits an enemy before the delay, itll bounce off. 
5. -  Add an alt fire mode to the fuse delay system of 0 seconds [effect=very small blast radius, high self damage, reduced status chance to 10%] 2 seconds [effect= medium blast radius, medium self damage, status chance is reduced to half], and finally 4 ( or insert # more than 2 )seconds [effect=high blast radius, low self damage, status chance is the same as the modded weapon stat] - This way, it'll add fun, some strategy, and maybe utility

not perfect, but its a thought.

Edited May 16, 2016 by dual1020

[Chipputer]

Just now, dual1020 said:

Instead of giving an outright "nerf" why not change the mechanic of the weapon?

My suggestion would be:

1. -Same damage as usual
2. -Reduce the ammo to 1, Increase reload speed to 2.5 (this way, while it can still do massive damage, increases the time to deal damage aka slows the dps)
3. - Remove the aiming assist (increases the learning curve of the weapon, adds punishment to poor accuracy) [just like killing floor's M79]
4. - Add a fuse delay, the time it takes to detonate to impact should be around 2 seconds and not more than 3 seconds. If it hits an enemy before the delay, itll bounce off. 
5. -  Add an alt fire mode to the fuse delay system of 0 seconds [effect=very small blast radius, high self damage, reduced status chance of 10%] 2 seconds [effect= medium blast radius, medium self damage, status chance is reduced to half], and finally 4 ( or insert # more than 2 )seconds [effect=high blast radius, low self damage, status chance is the same as the modded weapon stat] - This way, it'll add fun, some strategy, and maybe utility

Changing mechanics doesn't suddenly mean a nerf isn't a nerf. In order to balance things, sometimes you have to nerf them and sugar coating it with the term "rework" does nothing but add to the negative connotation the word already has.

Call it what it is and let the people who cry about it continue to do so.

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

Irrelevant. //Denied. People continiously say "like other launcher" thus their state is relevant.

I don't care how long you've been playing, nor am I going to play the game of who has more hours. Let's leave it at the fact that we both have more than enough to have this discussion. //Aw c'mon. I know you play for barely over a year but you could at least couter me with direct numbers instead of retreating. :P

The epitome of opinion. Your opinion on how it feels to use the weapon doesn't change the fact that it's unbalanced. There are plenty of other tools available to do the same thing but the problem is that the Tonkor is leagues more effective than these other tools, even when compared to the ySim, as at least that has a short effective range. //You DO know that everything we are posting here are opinions, right? That's what forums are for after all. Also there's plenty of farming tools which surpass even Tonkor but shhhhhhh.

And I think trying to push back against those balance changes with the same disregard for others is just as narrow minded. //I am not the one who started this "war".

This is a problem inherent with the balance of self damage and has nothing to do with the Tonkor or Ogris. That can easily be changed with a few tweaks. Immediately assuming all changes done to a weapon are done in a vacuum, with no regard to the other mechanics inherent in the game, is one of the worst things you can do. It's narrow minded. //Gammacor nerf, G.Pull nerf, launcher ammo nerf, shotgun DMG drop off, Nullie implimentation, the list goes on. Were any of these changes accounted by anything else in game like enemy scaling or such? Nope. You must be new here to believe it happens otherwise in WF. Oh wait.... :P

Did a quick blitz, since quote breaking requires a bit too much effort for my personal taste.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

On 13/5/2016 at 2:07 PM, AEP8FlyBoy said:

This is one way they can go.

But the fact remains, the Tonkor above all else, needs to have a risk involved in using it.

It NEEDS self-damage.

 

Just as soon as self damage is added to every weapon so that theres a risk to using them.

 

[AEP8FlyBoy]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

 

Just as soon as self damage is added to every weapon so that theres a risk to using them.

 

All explosive launchers yes... if that's what you mean.

If that isn't what you mean, then your statement is irrelevant.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

5 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

All explosive launchers yes... if that's what you mean.

If that isn't what you mean, then your statement is irrelevant.

How about you tone down that arrogance?

 

I meant all weapons since theres no risk using a soma prime, boltor prime, etc.

Either get rid of dumb self damage or apply it to everything.

Why do I sense a soma prime user?

Edited May 16, 2016 by (PS4)aiptekfanboy

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Just now, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

Nah.

I meant all weapons since theres no risk using a soma prime, boltor prime, etc.

Either get rid of dumb self damage or apply it to everything.

Why do I sense a some prime user freaking out at the idea of self damage to all weapons?

You aren't really adding to the issue. You're just trying to make a problem where there is none.

The Tonkor needs to have self-damage because it is a freakin' grenade launcher, and it is strong enough to warrant never using a Penta or Ogris ever again. Adding Self-damage to a weapon like the Soma... How? How would that even work?

Shooting yourself in the feet with it? No... Any competent gun wielder would know better. Grenades deal damage to everything in range (Everything), Guns only hurt for those on the receiving end of the barrel.

If you don't have anything valuable to add to this discussion, I'd advise you to look elsewhere to voice your opinion.

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Denied. People continiously say "like other launcher" thus their state is relevant.

Your opinion on other launchers is irrelevant. If anything you've pointed out the problem with the Tonkor by saying it. You aren't adding to your argument in any way.

2 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Aw c'mon. I know you play for barely over a year but you could at least couter me with direct numbers instead of retreating. :P

Sigh.

2 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

You DO know that everything we are posting here are opinions, right? That's what forums are for after all. Also there's plenty of farming tools which surpass even Tonkor but shhhhhhh.

You realize it's possible to be objective and not fill your post with personal opinion, correct? Discussing stats and comparing them is objective. Saying you like how it feels is subjective and irrelevant.

 

2 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Gammacor nerf, G.Pull nerf, launcher ammo nerf, shotgun DMG drop off, Nullie implimentation, the list goes on. Were any of these changes accounted by anything else in game like enemy scaling or such? Nope. You must be new here to believe it happens otherwise in WF. Oh wait.... :P

Gammacor was outperforming literally everything else* in the game.
Greedy Pull was aiding people who literally stood still and farmed, defeating the purpose of the game. Overnerfed, maybe, but it was treating a symptom of a bigger problem.
Launcher Ammo is perfectly fine where it is now. Inconsequential nerf that hurts absolutely nothing.
Shotgun damage dropoff is called balance. Why take a rifle when I can snipe with my Sancti Tigris?
Nullifiers is your personal opinion and irrelevant.

Are you going to continue to pretend that game time means anything? It's tiresome and boring.

 

*Secondary wise. Let's clarify that. It can be argued that primaries outdid it.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Chipputer
clarification

[TheBrsrkr]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

How about you tone down that arrogance?

 

I meant all weapons since theres no risk using a soma prime, boltor prime, etc.

Either get rid of dumb self damage or apply it to everything.

Why do I sense a soma prime user?

Add self damage to a Soma and Boltor Prime and see what happens. Bullets don't magically turn around when you miss. 

[shyguyk]

3 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Did a quick blitz, since quote breaking requires a bit too much effort for my personal taste.

I believe this coincides with the weapon issue at hand.

[TheBrsrkr]

49 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

I believe this coincides with the weapon issue at hand.

[Currilicious]

4 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Notice how you're really just recycling your arguments from earlier comments. Come up with something new to say, or stop commenting. 

You should play solo if you hate others for not doing things your way and cannot handle feedback well. It's better for everyone involved.

[TheBrsrkr]

12 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

I have literally nothing to add to the conversation so I'll just repeat the same crap

Playing solo does not fix the underlying issue. As we've covered every time you've said it so far, ignoring a problem is not a solution. Going solo does not make the Tonkor less overpowered. It does not promote the multiplayer nature of Warframe. It does not stop the Tonkor from forcing other players to avoid it. It does not affect the content that the Tonkor invalidates.

Come up with something new to say, something that wasn't in the comment you made just before, or stop commenting.  

[Currilicious]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Playing solo does not fix the underlying issue. As we've covered every time you've said it so far, ignoring a problem is not a solution. Going solo does not make the Tonkor less overpowered. It does not promote the multiplayer nature of Warframe. It does not stop the Tonkor from forcing other players to avoid it. It does not affect the content that the Tonkor invalidates.

Come up with something new to say, something that wasn't in the comment you made just before, or stop commenting.  

Well unless you're the Pope, I don't see how you are that special to have everything changed for you. You play solo, and all the hate for other people need not be there no more. And, other folks can play their game in peace. That's a win-win, if ever there was one.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 minute ago, Currilicious said:

Well unless you're the Pope, I don't see how you are that special to have everything changed for

. You play solo, and all the hate for other people need not be there no more. And, other folks can play their game in peace. That's a win-win, if ever there was one.

5 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Playing solo does not fix the underlying issue. As we've covered every time you've said it so far, ignoring a problem is not a solution. Going solo does not make the Tonkor less overpowered. It does not promote the multiplayer nature of Warframe. It does not stop the Tonkor from forcing other players to avoid it. It does not affect the content that the Tonkor invalidates.

Come up with something new to say, something that wasn't in the comment you made just before, or stop commenting.  

[Currilicious]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

 

Do consider playing solo. Less grief for everyone involved, especially for the nice folks just playing their game for fun.

[(PSN)Redemption_015]

2 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

Well unless you're the Pope, I don't see how you are that special to have everything changed for you. You play solo, and all the hate for other people need not be there no more. And, other folks can play their game in peace. That's a win-win, if ever there was one.

No he likes to play multiplayer, but hates that people use weapons he doesn't like. That is the issue.

[TheBrsrkr]

8 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

.

Come up with something new to say, something that wasn't in the comment you made just before, or STOP COMMENTING.