U19 will be a turning point... or will not.

[Stratego89]

In regards to "primes being limited now because of the vault" my brain is just screaming at that right now.

There are not- they're REALLY not. It took how many YEARS for the primes that have been vaulted at this point to be vaulted after their initial release? They are unvaulted for a while occasionally. To boot, the prime vault is not a permanent thing. It is a temporary measure to keep the void from getting EVEN MORE diluted than it already is- and all vaulted primes will be unvaulted once SC 3.0 hits and comes with the permanent solution (probably in U19). You said this all yourself. If DE says they're going to do something, they're going to do it. The only times they've ever not done something they said they were going to (even if delayed) is when they said something MIGHT happen or when they were THINKING about it. DE said the void will blow up. DE said SC 3.0 will come and bring the permanent solution. 

Believe me, I know how you and a lot of other people feel. Since second dream- and not to dev bash here- they seem to be in a MAJOR slump brought about by a high of "we made something amazing". It's like they've been basking in the afterglow or something and have totally lost the momentum of keeping things active, fun, and well made. So I agree. U19 will either be the turning point that saves the game, or go from it's slow decline into a straight fall. I don't like doomsdaying. I really don't. But I can't help but see it this way. I think it's a combination of a lot of things but ultimately I believe the most major point is Draco. Draco creates burnout en masse. People go there, clear stuff without even using it, then get bored because there's no more "content" even though they didn't actually touch any of the content, just burned through it at mach 10. Toxic behaviors are a cherry on top to the problems. Recruiting chat is dead to anything but people saying "play here, my way or leave".

If DE had handled Draco like EVERY other loot cave before it instead of waiting for SC 3.0 this wouldn't all be happening. If SC 3.0 had come out when originally planned- it wouldn't have been a big issue. But DE after delaying it TWICE should have taken action against it instead of letting it fester further and further with the thought in their head of "SC 3.0 will deal with it". A bandaid is better than nothing, as long as a permanent solution is coming. I don't see how they've failed this long to realize that but I hope they do now and I hope if they save things they don't make the same mistake in the future.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Stratego89

[DaftMeat]

20 minutes ago, matto said:

Such a shame.

If you had read it, you would have known that I'm not saying everything should be free or obtainable easily, but that there's a difference between what was the PA logic, and the aggressive turn it took.

But again, you didn't read so... I won't blame you, it's really long. You could get a Nitain extract in that time.

I read it. The tl;dr was a summary of your wall of text. 

The recent trend with resources is certainly troubling. DE is struggling to find a way to deal with players who have stockpiles of resources. To try and make people earn new items by forcing in new time gates. To give incentives for using real money instead of just making it an alternative to frustrating grinding. You're not the first one to call it out. However, you're not brainstorming any alternatives either. The ultimate goal of the forums are for constructive criticism, but your post basically summarizes to another "I don't like it" thread. There's a difference between complaining and critiquing.

You voiced your opinion, and I voiced a counter opinion. I don't like it, but I understand it.

[MillbrookWest]

40 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

EvE is the ULTIMATE grind game. There's no way to hurry up that skills training (someone did the math that it would take about 23 years to be skilled in everything ... years ago), and without those skills a pilot can't fly crap.

Used Eve as an example of another style of progression, any other correlation is irrelevant since im talking about it in Warframe's context. How the mechanic functions in Eve is CCP's problem.

I wouldn't mind a month long set of mission whereby at the end i am guaranteed an entire Warframe (pre-built wouldn't be too bad either for a months worth of missions - I'm looking at the Chroma quest as an example). Or, a week of missions for a systems. etc. This way, I know what i want to do, and what i get at the end of it. There is no random hand of fate that decides if i do 200 void defence runs, or 2.

Content is still gated, and players have something to work toward. If the timeframes are an issue, it would be an easy enough issue to resolve for DE.

[Nesit1]

I don't think that's a problem. Some things are easy to get. Some things are hard to get. 

You mentioned people "who can't get Frost Prime". Tell me, how much do they lose because of it? Some stats? Some shiny stuff on Waframe? He looks bad, needs vusal overhaul. I started playing in patch when Void was added. And I never, ever wanted to build Prime. News of him getting vaulted. W/e. News of him getting unvaulted. W/e. I knew I didn't lose much just because I don't have it. Same here. All this "time limited stuff" is not that important. Vault is good - because void is flooded with prime items already.

 

Getting back to the "grind"

Grind is part of game. Everything you do in Warframe is grinding. Even in Conclave you grind reputation.

What's wrong - people usually use "best ways" to grind. Fastest, easiest, and most boring as well.

You can't stop 'em from picking "best ways", but DE can make those ways less boring. What do I expect from U19 - "time to farm/grind" won't be affected. You'll have the same amount of time to get some Prime thing, but what you'll be doing for that will be different. The same goes with Draco. DE don't want to make "time to rank up" higher, they want more variety in ways.

Before U19 happens, everything you can do is limitting yourself and stop sticking to "best ways". More likely "stop tryharding". Eventually you'll get everything, so it's better to chill down and make your own gameplay more interesting.

[TheStag]

Lately, as in throughout the past few updates, it seems the developers had a paradigm shift. It certainly wasn't sudden, but like you said, the steps have been taken. The developers have often verbally expressed their aspirations for the game throughout its development, however through their work you can see that one thing in particular has changed - what they aspire for. 

A common saying related to this is that actions speak louder than words, and the game development is the expression of their actions. It has shifted towards profit and away from the original idea of a game for players to enjoy. The digression from the plan for the game when it was first released has caused this, in my opinion. I would say, sadly, that unless the game is focused more towards being entertainment for the consumers than a means of profit for the creators then the game will continue its negative trend of cash grabs and such.

 

That being said, I agree with OP.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

3 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

Used Eve as an example of another style of progression, any other correlation is irrelevant since im talking about it in Warframe's context. How the mechanic functions in Eve is CCP's problem.

That still is a grind and a time sink to prevent what is seen in too many games: too many racing through content then complaining they're bored (or worse once geared, "too easy" then spending their time trying to limit the progression of OTHERS).

Progression can be linear or off the beaten track. Progression can come via quests/tokens/rep grinds ... but it is still a time sink grind.

[p3z1]

Hope no one is offended by me using the term "wallet warriors." Apologies in advance.

Alright, new Prime Access is out. Vauban/Prime was buffed with Minelayer, Prime version has minor buffs and an extra polarity. Fragor Prime is the sniper rifle of melee, and the Akstiletto Prime seems to be able to compete with the Braton Prime. Sounds good for a Prime Access, if you ask me, since these are straight up buffs from their regular counterparts.

So, what's the problem?

The gap between F2P players and wallet warriors, that's what the problem is now. So, here are my points/opinions/assumptions/experiences why this gap has increased:

• Probably the most controversial thing currently, Vauban Prime needing 20 NITAIN TOTAL (5 per part, 5 for the BP). Sure getting 20 nitain isn't a problem, if you get lucky with all the nitain alerts, camp them 24/7 in front of your PC, or have a lot of free time and an alert app to...well...alert you. Those busy (studying, work, family, life, etc.) will depend on luck if they are able to access said nitain alerts. Now ship sabotage is another thing, but requires at least 2 players to be efficient, and is fairly unreliable, due to some random caches not being existent/missing.
• Placement of prime parts currently. So most, if not all, players know that Rotation C is the MOST DILUTE thing existing in the game, and DEvs decide to put the new primes in only Rotation C's (considering that you need the whole set anyways to get the whole thing built to work). Akstilleto Prime has 3 parts in Rotation C, and they are all in T4 missions, which has a chance to give R5 cores in general, even at Rotation C. Fragor Prime has one part in Rotation C, although in a T3 mission, is still not an excuse, since it is still diluted. Vauban Prime, in 2 Rotation C missions, T3 and T4. People who have time to sperg/grind for parts WILL still have a problem, but those without the time are dangled the "buy me" option.
• Another prime parts placement issue, but this time in focus of the "Ignored Rotations(tm)." Ignored Rotations(tm) are those rotations that have almost nothing (prime parts-wise) in them, but random rewards which should have been integrated in-game. Rotation As and Bs in general are offenders, being given minimal prime parts, while putting a load of stuff in Rotation C. ODS and ODD are the prime offenders, having an abyssmally low chance to drop prime parts even at Rotation C. This has led to the "Prime Vault," something that could have been avoided, because of the lack of T1-T3 Interception, lack of prime parts in Rotation A and B, the lack of prime parts in the Derelicts, and even probably the lack of T1-T4 spy (if such a thing is a good idea.) Basically, for new players to avail of these things, they are forced to go to trading and buy them using platinum they have bought, while F2P players wait for U19 to probably open up the vaults again.. An indirect reference to wallet warriors out there.
• Sibear requires 30k cryotic, a very huge amount of cryotic (300 excavators), not a problem for those that power-farmed these before the excavation "rebalance" and core drop nerfs. Not a major problem, since it isn't a prime anyways, but shows a gap between F2P and paying players.
• An argument that may seem dull, but I'd consider the Second Dream to be another gap opener (gear-wise). So, finishing this quest gives Broken-War, a pre-requisite for a probably broken weapon, War. Now, buying Hunhow's Gift gives you War for free (technically) and some cosmetics exclusive to the bundle. If you can't afford that platinum, then you are going to grind for War BP from Stalker. Wanting to keep both, you farm Stalker for Broken War BP, and conculysts for 2x blades and a hilt (really broken logic there). So, again, F2P players grind a huge wall, while wallet warriors have instant access. Players without time and money suffer both ways, and again, a gap is presented.
• The introduction of clan-tech weapons to the Market. Yes, this is an old thing already, since older tech weapons can't be bought with plat anyways. The problem is, the recent clan-techs can be bought with plat as well, aside from the usual gathering of materials and researching. The problem with this is the fact that some Clan-Tech weapons are expensive, and are available from the market. Also, a side note, forma BP drops have been seemingly nerfed before, and pre-built forma don't seem to exist in the void anymore. The Knux is probably the best example out there. Again, a small gap, but a gap nonetheless.

Now I'd probably get the "trade chat" argument. Sure it works for some market items, but what about the primes (especially the recent one)? What about those that only have one hour per day to play, and are unlucky, and have bad connection whenever they get the chance to play? What about those who aren't able to get the nitain because of luck?

Now, I'd probably get the "wait for Starmap 3.0 if it solves the vault issue," but what if it acted like how Frost Prime was unvaulted? It diluted drop tables even more, and the "buy me" option was dangled as well. It was limited time as well to boot (but nothing can be done about that).

Lastly, I'd probably get the argument of "But DE needs to feed themselves as well." Yes that is understood, but the MASSIVE dilution and IMPROPER distribution wasn't necessary. I mean, they could just go 10% x 10 for a single rotation, but they had to weight it very low as well (I assume ~2.5% per new Rotation C item). Players who find the game good tend to buy for cosmetics anyways, or buy plat to support the game (Founders did this right?). So, the mandatory massive dilution wasn't necessary, if you ask me.

Relevant:

Bourbon List (for those who aren't familiar with it), are the problems that DEvs identified as...well...the problem, and seek to solve it. Ironic really.

tl;dr

Spoiler

None, go read it all.

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by p3z1

[Xgomme]

Wich gap ? My wallet have cancer and I'm MR21 x)

 

Not related

 

+ Broken War is better than War 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Xgomme

[Yrveth]

1 hour ago, matto said:

Because after 3 years with this game, we finally saw a more aggressive logic behind PA. All the smoke screen won't hide it. It's buy your new shiny frame, or grind the hell out of it. Go through farming keys to grinding missions, to waiting for alertium to show up and finally farm an uncommon ressource. (...) But whatever. I would be ok with all the grind wall if a Prime frame wasn't limited in time. Because, yes with the vaulting system, it became limited. Or even unattainable for some without paying.

Okay but currently primes are in regular circulation for a couple of years or so. Unless the time between prime releases is shortened, this probably won't change. Two years is hardly a short time. Isn't the problem simply that people insist on getting everything! right away!! for free!!! and without grinding, because grinding kills the man.

But, we've had Nitain for 174 days. If you did at least one alert for it every three days you'd probably have enough to craft most things it's used for. Other resources build up similarly over time, as long as you're engaging with the game. The outrage regarding crafting costs and whatnot comes from people who aren't.

DE could add flavour text to Nitain alerts saying that they're important for your future progression and you should probably do them and people still wouldn't do them because, at the time, they aren't interested in Nitain crafts, and half a year later they will come here, and complain about the absolute unholy levels of grind required in order to obtain something; or proudly proclaim they despise Corpus missions and it's unfair to force Oxium crafts on them.

This is a complex issue that can't be addressed by one forum thread about a specific thing, or by simply making everything fast & easy to get because then we'll fall back on the issue of having nothing to do in the game anymore, which is also a common complaint. It's an issue of, above all, the way players engage with content (usually: the easiest way). What feels to some like grinding the hell out of something, I can guarantee to you, is nothing special for other people. It's all really subjective. And that's without even touching upon "having to eat".

All that said I'm curious about that "fantastic and refreshing game policy" that you "fell in love with a few years before".

[Nijyumensou]

If they listen to your voice, are you ( the community) willing to invest more cash needlessly into the game even though the pricing per item is going to be extremely cheap(just to feed the company) ? I am fairly sure most of us are only paying with cash because we know grinding for resources/item is extremely tough but if getting the item's reward chances increase noticeably or resources get any easier to farm, will you still pay platinum to get it faster so you can focus on farming resources even though it will only take you at most a day to complete the farming ? As long as microtransaction is their main revenue supply,the grind wall should either remain the same level or even more.

let's move on to the fun part but since I have no idea what do you want so I will refer those as "fun stuff".so what if they can provide you the "fun stuff "but you have to pay 2000 to 3000 platinum bi-annually to enjoy it? (content changes [drastically or totally ]every half a year) (uses token system instead of rng) (untradeable ) 

What do you think? 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Nijyumensou

[(PSN)watt4hem]

With vauban i'd say kinda. 

While some primes are really hard to farm (looking at ash's bp and other rotation c with high tier keys), they'll eventually have their price in the market drop to at max 150 plat per set. This would probably be the case with booben too in a few months, except that there's no way to go around the ridiculous amount of oxium (it was 7000, correct?) and nitain (somewhat acceptable imo but still kinda too much) since it would be a massive grind and not everyone's got time nor will to play the same mode over and over again. I'm all for some grind but this is just too much up to the point it's diminishing.

Tl,dr

Yes

[p3z1]

1 minute ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

With vauban i'd say kinda. 

While some primes are really hard to farm (looking at ash's bp and other rotation c with high tier keys), they'll eventually have their price in the market drop to at max 150 plat per set. This would probably be the case with booben too in a few months, except that there's no way to go around the ridiculous amount of oxium (it was 7000, correct?) and nitain (somewhat acceptable imo but still kinda too much) since it would be a massive grind and not everyone's got time nor will to play the same mode over and over again. I'm all for some grind but this is just too much up to the point it's diminishing.

Tl,dr

Yes

Well, players still pay for plat (trading requires plat from another person, which he may have bought). So technically, still a paying player.

[polarity]

The amount of time you have to play is entirely down to your life choices.  Responsible adults accept the consequences of their choices, including giving up some things in favor of others.

[(PSN)Cwellann]

12 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

(I assume ~2.5% per new Rotation C item

DE (want to say Adam, I saw the post once, but didn't save the link) promised that void drop chances would never go below 5% after some huge fiasco (forma drop chances datamined at like a tenth of a percent or something, I think, but it was way before my time).  From what I can gather, this promise has been kept.  So that's something at least.  Although, if every piece of a prime were 5%, and all Rotation C stuff, that's a lot (literal work weeks) of grind, on average.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

they'll eventually have their price in the market drop to at max 150 plat per set

Honestly I see Vauban stabilizing out at around 200 for us, but yeah, if I find a part this week I'm most likely selling it.  I can just buy the set in a month or two for the price of two Graces or a single Avenger.

[Genitive]

I think the grind issue is quite arbitrary; some people will find it annoying, others won't mind it at all. Not everything should be easy to obtain, although some things could drop in more than one place (looking at you, lenses). I hope the new starchart will somehow redistribute drop chances.

[.Little.]

I see it as a way to extend the game play via artificial time walls.  I mean after everyone has everything,  then what?   Still a crazy grind and I loathe anything t3 or 4 rotation C; that is a for sure 20 minutes for most likely ducats.

[p3z1]

8 minutes ago, polarity said:

The amount of time you have to play is entirely down to your life choices.  Responsible adults accept the consequences of their choices, including giving up some things in favor of others.

This is a point about widening the gap, not about life choices.

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Cwellann said:

DE (want to say Adam, I saw the post once, but didn't save the link) promised that void drop chances would never go below 5% after some huge fiasco (forma drop chances datamined at like a tenth of a percent or something, I think, but it was way before my time).  From what I can gather, this promise has been kept.  So that's something at least.  Although, if every piece of a prime were 5%, and all Rotation C stuff, that's a lot (literal work weeks) of grind, on average.

PM me a link of proof (of sorts, because posting is illegal).

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Cwellann said:

Honestly I see Vauban stabilizing out at around 200 for us, but yeah, if I find a part this week I'm most likely selling it.  I can just buy the set in a month or two for the price of two Graces or a single Avenger.

5 minutes ago, Genitive said:

I think the grind issue is quite arbitrary; some people will find it annoying, others won't mind it at all. Not everything should be easy to obtain, although some things could drop in more than one place (looking at you, lenses). I hope the new starchart will somehow redistribute drop chances.

Yeah, while grinding it is hard, the resource grind is hard as well. Imagine having to get 20 nitain while having only a 1-2 hour window per day. You can buy Vauban Prime parts, but, again, nitain.

 

2 minutes ago, ParaStatic said:

I see it as a way to extend the game play via artificial time walls.  I mean after everyone has everything,  then what?   Still a crazy grind and I loathe anything t3 or 4 rotation C; that is a for sure 20 minutes for most likely ducats.

Would be a fine time wall were it not for S#&$ty rewards (T4Su 60 min gives R5 cores). Leads to burnout fast due to this.

Edited May 18, 2016 by p3z1

[tripletriple]

Yeah Vauban's nitains requirements has put this game in a position where it's not exactly supposed to be.

[PrVonTuckIII]

I agree with all of your points. Personally, I feel like they should move a lot of parts to Rot A and B, and lower their chance of receiving, whereas severely buffing the chance of getting the rare parts in Rot C. This way, we actually have a reason to stay longer.

[DeHACKtivate]

I have money to freely spend on whatever I want and choose to support a game of my choice? Oh how terrible. (See, I can make this comment sound biased, too)

Aside from that though, the only thing I've bought is an accessories package, everything else I've got was just from playing the game. However, I know I'm the monority here, because I could careless about the grind. I just do whatever and have fun with it, but just thought I'd voice my opinion. And yes, I happen to live an excellent life at the moment. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by DeHACKtivate
Syntax, Grammar, Kappa

[Void-Shyrok]

Everything aside from cosmetics is obtainable ingame. You farm and it will come to you. Simple as that.

 

[Jonnyrobot]

I don't always buy prime access or even the accessories. But when I saw what was coming out with vauban prime I saved my cash. I bought the vortex pack and have no regrets about it. 

For me it comes down to the prime access itself. It's a personal choice.

Now as for the drop rates aand required components. I can't speak to that.

[Doctor_Grayfield]

_{"No offense, but... *offensive term*."  Lol... people.}

 

Anyway though.  I keep seeing these threads, especially since yesterday, and I'm not sure I understand.  What's wrong with something dropping in rotation C of tier 3?  If I'm reading it right, your argument is that it's unfair to those that do not have as much time and/or money as others?

 

Um... that's life?

 

Why is it an issue that if you can't afford to buy it from DE you must grind to get it for free?

[Evanescent]

Um...why weren't people grabbing nitain alerts whenever they can? When I see one in my playtime I make sure to grab it so I have a nice stock tucked away.

And for the resource grind I pace it into small portions everyday. I farm vauban and farm a little resource so that by the time I get him I'll have everything ready.

[Alex9-3-9]

As a player since Update 6 I have only purchased platinum with 75% off Discounts. Vauban Prime takes Too much resources to craft and also the 14k Oxium wasn't a mistake.

They made the game P2W a long time ago and it's only getting worse...