Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

her main defensive and offensive ability is magnetize now.... also, you dont need super high powerstr with the way magnetize scales...

 

bench polarize

use magnetize

An ability that's concept from the beginning is for GROUP play. The only time I play in groups is some alerts and Void runs, and I once did play those because I could AoE.

Because of vision problems I can't see smaller targets to hit and have to use AoE to even play. Why I use the blast weapons. Why I can't even see the platform edges in the MR8 test.

This is what I see (minus the floaters)...

So these changes to Mag shut me out of playing her, and in turn the reason I'm not playing -- she's the only frame I'd take into groups as perfect sight isn't required. When Shield Polarize wasn't this wave it didn't fight for view either. Now it fights against the EMPs and blue bubbles I can't even see it anymore.

Too you is simply adapting. To me it's simply playing at all but solo. I can play Solitaire for that!

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Polarize is my only defense

Now, Polarise and Magnetise are your defenses. Although snap judgement calls on Magnetising things would be a little better if the cast speed was improved somewhat.

What good is restoring when you're likely to be killed before you can even react with Shield Polarise at Sortie-levels? Prevention is better than cure. Put a big bubble of nope between you and the things that want to rip your shields off.

 

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

The longer it stays up the more likely it is to run out of targets inside it, at what point it just prevents you and your team shooting targets behind it. The kill speed is also in favour a low duration build, since you can just recast magnetize if the AOE at the end did not manage to finish the job.

Don't state it as categorical fact. I don't run throwing out energy restores every two seconds or have a pocket Trinity to pal around with, so I favour longer bubbles that I don't have to recast as often. Smart usage takes care of the rest.

Enemies behind the bubble that you can't shoot? if only you had some way to enact some sort of force to bring them towards you.. I don't know, like some sort of.. pull mechanic.

Breaking LoS also tends to make them come running. And it doesn't at all stop you targeting through the bubble with a fresh cast of Magnetise so you can push through and remain safe.

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

You realize that shields are very different to scaling then armor and how a 200% power strength mag did work with SP before the changes? Even if you had a guardian eximus in range(what was the reason mag was bad for eximus sortis) you had at least 100% shield removal in one cast. The current SP does not even do that, it does flat damage to shields what means nothing at high levels.

Already said Polarise can use some work. Wouldn't you see a world where Magnetise can be a strong defensive tool/chokepoint killer as well as having a good offensive tool in Polarise? It's not quite there yet, but number tweaks could make it so.

 

You can't pull everything, no, but you're still controlling the battlefield. At worst you're at a stalemate; they can't get you without trespassing through the bubble of death, as much as you can't get to them without going past it yourself. But you can make that safe with another cast. Or focus on shoring up strategic Magnetises for another potential angle of attack.

 

Nothing will be perfectly catering to everyone's tastes, and that's fine. But don't pretend like you have all the answers that fix everything to everyone. Adapt to what is before you start speculating on what might be. Focus on suggesting fixes to mechanics we have, not inventing new ones.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

16 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Now, Polarise and Magnetise are your defenses. Although snap judgement calls on Magnetising things would be a little better if the cast speed was improved somewhat.

What good is restoring when you're likely to be killed before you can even react with Shield Polarise at Sortie-levels? Prevention is better than cure. Put a big bubble of nope between you and the things that want to rip your shields off.

PREVENTION is mitigation. PREVENTION is a CC that locks them in place (so they can't damage). PREVENTION is disarming the enemy (so they can't damage).

Prevention isn't Magnetize, that's a group ability to funnel bullets through.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

3 hours ago, Djego27 said:

You realize that shields are very different to scaling then armor and how a 200% power strength mag did work with SP before the changes? Even if you had a guardian eximus in range(what was the reason mag was bad for eximus sortis) you had at least 100% shield removal in one cast. The current SP does not even do that, it does flat damage to shields what means nothing at high levels.

And it worked without cluttering the field of view, too! All it did was give that "pow" sound and the Corpus/Grineer making their "ouch" sounds that I knew hit the targets in range. Further away it took less shields away, but anywhere near Mag that 200+% Power Strength stripped the shields in full.

Level 60+ is when it took more than one SP to strip all the shields, and in return gave Mag her overshields to survive.

Corpus wasn't killing Mag, it's the Grineer/Corrupted that did -- as their damage bypasses the shields. In the Void the counter to Mag was the Corrupted, as she couldn't strip their armor away, and their weapons damaged health, not shields.

The balance was already there. This is an ability change for the Sorties by the looks of it, because Mag's SP SCALED, and DE apparently wants sorties/raids to last. But they could've just as well put a percentage cap on it per tier.

[TheLexiConArtist]

20 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

PREVENTION is mitigation. PREVENTION is a CC that locks them in place (so they can't damage). PREVENTION is disarming the enemy (so they can't damage).

Prevention isn't Magnetize, that's a group ability to funnel bullets through.

Prevention is standing on the other side of an ability that eats the enemy's offensive fire which they can't cross through without getting eviscerated by damage ticks?

Sure, it's a little buggy and doesn't eat all the things it should as reliably as it should, but the essence is there.

[tnccs215]

[Ignore this]

Edited June 3, 2016 by tnccs215

[I-JUST-EAT-YOU]

My thoughts on the Mag rework are:

Pull: could use greedy pull as innate feature (since it's nerfed and pull is still quite lackluster)

Magnetise: the sucking in enemies effect doesnt quite work well, especially if they enter the bubble not in the original cast

Polarize: could use lower scaling than before but have its scaling back, also the armor reduction is low in general, also should deal damage vs the infested, and perhaps slow them.

Crush: fine ability, has been for a long time

Shards: this is where it gets interesting, right now shards are, lets be honest quite useless I suggest that shards create a 5m aura around them, if an enemy is in that aura they take the extra damage from all mag's abilities. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by I-JUST-EAT-YOU

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Mag's pre-patch mods to use were +Power Strength -Duration corrupted mods. The goal was to build absolute strength, as she scales wonderfully with Power Strength.

DE's cheese is to dock Mag by 1/3 of Power Strength to fit in +Duration mods (a previous dump stat as it's useless to Mag as a fast caster with no duration abilities but then Bullet Attractor, that few used).

Extra cheese on the ability side is to increase the cost of Shield Polarize.

So even if you nerf yourself into the ground to fit +duration mods -- and fit the Shield Transference mod in -- there's now an added taxed to refresh your Overshields.

The reason Mag spammed #2 so much is to restore her shields -- she HAD too as that's her defense -- but now, there's even a higher energy tax on refreshing those shields ON TOP of nerfing her mod wise AND ability wise.

Mag was nerfed BELOW the ground both ways.

Most frames with a dump stat are overpowered; no surprise that DE is eliminating them.  Mag also only needed to hit a target value of power strength (around 220% IIRC) in order to gain her Corpus win button, and you could run such a build with both respectable duration and efficiency to use BA (nobody did and instead used cast speed/shield mods or tried to use GPull.)

SP costs 6 more energy now.

Spamming 2 without being in a safe location or having a bandaid to protect yourself would still get you murdered in the popular "sortie level" and T4 content where Mag was abused as a Corpus win button.  This hasn't changed.

Polarize also has a range of ~40 meters with just 68% duration, and it takes about 1.5 seconds to reach that range.  Damage/multiplier values notwithstanding, this is quite workable, and you can sacrifice some strength or range to easily make it map-wide if you want to.

Magnetize is so ridiculous that the rework can be considered a buff against all factions (even Corpus, for Magnetize's defensive benefits,) and even the widely-panned Polarize (I wonder if it would be panned in this way if it didn't succeed such an exploitable win button?) does alright damage to both Corpus and Grineer of reasonable levels (sortie levels are an unreasonable mistake that forces us to play in an environment where game systems break down and cheese is the only option; good thing Magnetize is one of the cheesiest powers to date.)

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

On 5/27/2016 at 5:46 PM, Latiac said:

This nerf makes Saryn look good.

Ouch

[Henji]

So I was wondering if there are any issues with her recent changes and how is the general feeling with the more hardcore users of the frame ?

EDIT: I don't use her much but I didn't see any significant downsides so I thought would be best to ask for other opinions.

When moderatos move your post you be like:

 

Spoiler

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Henji

[motorfirebox]

On 6/2/2016 at 8:59 AM, Djego27 said:

So much dot:

Okay, so a few screens from yesterday's sortie 2. First, my damage from my first run on 2. The Booben Prime had a Tonkor, I think one of the others had a Simulor. 

Most of my damage and kills was from mobs walking into my bubble. They entered, they died. Here's a quick sequence of shots from a second run on sortie 2 to show what I'm talking about:

Spoiler

Note the bubble timer to give you a sense of how quickly this happened. First screen is from before I started firing. Second is as I was firing. Third is when they died. Four seconds, total.

I spent much of the match locating an enemy coming out of a spawn doorway, bubbling him, shooting the bubble for two or three seconds (long enough to expend one ammo from my Quanta Vandal) and moving on. I didn't have to worry about spawns from that doorway for the next twenty seconds. That's level 70 mobs with the physical enhancement mutator, dying as they spawned. Also note (check my ammo count) that I'm not using cube spam, just beaming it.

And that doesn't even touch on the defensive utility of a long Mag bubble. The other thing I spent a lot of time doing on that sortie was throwing up bubbles on enemies next to a downed Tenno. That let me skate into the bubble, rez them, and then kill the ten or twenty or whatever mobs surrounding us. Bubble a mob trying to cap a flag, and that terminal is safe for the next twenty seconds.

Is there more damage potential in a short bubble? It's possible, I guess, though I'd be a little surprised. You have to get the timing right. You've got to catch a group of mobs, light up your bubble, and hope the group is still close enough when the bubble collapses. Even with a really short bubble, that can be iffy, especially in the middle of a gigantic firefight when you've got a lot of other problems on your plate.

Edited June 3, 2016 by motorfirebox

[GreenVajene]

15 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

They entered, they died.

MZ is great. I don't see how anyone who has actually spent considerable time testing Mag out on high levels in objective-protection-based missions (interception, excavation, defense), could conclude that it is underpowered. The defensive and offensive utility of Magnetize almost feels a little too powerful. At this point it seems safe to conclude those who insist it isn't are simply refusing based upon some strange sense of loyalty to Old Mag.

But what I continuously experience is that when MZ isn't being immensely useful and killing everything it touches, it suffers from some very small flaws that translate to some less-than small headaches. But the debate over whether New Mag needs Big Changes, or even deserves to exist, has marginalized the discussion about how New Mag could be changed in smaller ways to function in a more streamlined fashion.

I could come up with a half-dozen complaints about MZ, but none of them have to do with its damage or core functionality.

[GrimMyfanwy]

2 minutes ago, GreenVajene said:

MZ is great. I don't see how anyone who has actually spent considerable time testing Mag out on high levels in objective-protection-based missions (interception, excavation, defense), could conclude that it is underpowered. The defensive and offensive utility of Magnetize almost feels a little too powerful. At this point it seems safe to conclude those who insist it isn't are simply refusing based upon some strange sense of loyalty to Old Mag.

But what I continuously experience is that when MZ isn't being immensely useful and killing everything it touches, it suffers from some very small flaws that translate to some less-than small headaches. But the debate over whether New Mag needs Big Changes, or even deserves to exist, has marginalized the discussion about how New Mag could be changed in smaller ways to function in a more streamlined fashion.

I could come up with a half-dozen complaints about MZ, but none of them have to do with its damage or core functionality.

I think the main issue for me isn't that magnetize isn't a good ability (it really is) it's that feel like they kept her a one power pony with the rework. Crush still feels horribly weak for an ultimate, and you have to use an augment to change that at least for one faction. Pull is still nice CC, but the synergy doesn't add much more to it except gore. and polarize is just in an awful place, being it now has no scaling. Mind you, the main issue for me isn't the rework, so much as the rework how it relates to current enemy scaling. I would be happy if they said changes would be coming to that, instead of "we're looking into it."*

*In the business world "we're looking into it" means "we have no plans changing this, but we're telling you this so you can leave us alone and hopefully forget about it." It's a bad turn of phrase they use a lot.

[Nealend86]

3 hours ago, I-JUST-EAT-YOU said:

Magnetise: the sucking in enemies effect doesnt quite work well, especially if they enter the bubble not in the original cast

Polarize: could use lower scaling than before but have its scaling back, also the armor reduction is low in general, also should deal damage vs the infested, and perhaps slow them.

Hell, just boost the pulling effect on Magnetise and add in a bit of scaling back to Polarize and Mag would be just fine.

[I-JUST-EAT-YOU]

2 minutes ago, Nealend86 said:

Hell, just boost the pulling effect on Magnetise and add in a bit of scaling back to Polarize and Mag would be just fine.

Agreed though I feel like the shards thing I posted might make them alot more useful.

[GreenVajene]

20 minutes ago, GrimKonstantin said:

I think the main issue for me isn't that magnetize isn't a good ability (it really is) it's that feel like they kept her a one power pony with the rework. Crush still feels horribly weak for an ultimate, and you have to use an augment to change that at least for one faction. Pull is still nice CC, but the synergy doesn't add much more to it except gore. and polarize is just in an awful place, being it now has no scaling. Mind you, the main issue for me isn't the rework, so much as the rework how it relates to current enemy scaling. I would be happy if they said changes would be coming to that, instead of "we're looking into it."*

Mag totally is still a one-trick pony, but is hardly the only frame to which that term can be applied. And compared to before, her trick works on factions other than Corpus, which is a pretty huge improvement.

It would take relatively small changes to fix the other skills.

13 minutes ago, Nealend86 said:

Hell, just boost the pulling effect on Magnetise and add in a bit of scaling back to Polarize and Mag would be just fine.

Yeah, like that.

When I think of "small changes," I just think, "changing some numbers around" or "borrowing a utility from something that already exists." The current skills don't need major alterations to their core-functionalities. And really, MZ alone makes Mag worth taking into just about anything.

Although it would be nice if MZ had a way to cancel bubbles other than casting four more, the issues with taking damage inside were fixed, if the cast time were reduced and/or it would deploy on enemies killed mid-cast, and if it rooted the target enemy on cast so they didn't wander right up to you before turning into an MZ and messing up your carefully arranged barricade...

Edited June 3, 2016 by GreenVajene

[motorfirebox]

2 minutes ago, GreenVajene said:

Mag totally is still a one-trick pony, but is hardly the only frame to which that term can be applied. And compared to before, her trick works on factions other than Corpus, which is a pretty huge improvement.

It would take relatively small changes to fix the other skills.

Yeah, like that.

When I think of "small changes," I just think, "changing some numbers around" or "borrowing a utility from something that already exists." The current skills don't need major alterations to their core-functionalities. And really, MZ alone makes Mag worth taking into just about anything.

Although it would be nice if MZ had a way to cancel bubbles other than casting four more, the issues with self-damage were fixed, if the cast time were reduced and/or it would deploy on enemies killed mid-cast, and if it rooted the target enemy on cast so they didn't wander right up to you before turning into an MZ and messing up your carefully arranged barricade...

Also, MZ costs energy even if it fails to cast because the target dies before the animation ends.

[GreenVajene]

8 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Also, MZ costs energy even if it fails to cast because the target dies before the animation ends.

That's exactly what I had in mind regarding very small flaws that translate to headaches.

Perhaps it isn't so small, though, because what it really does is punish you for playing with a team. Most of the problems with MZ really boil down to that.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 hours ago, GreenVajene said:

MZ is great. I don't see how anyone who has actually spent considerable time testing Mag out on high levels in objective-protection-based missions (interception, excavation, defense), could conclude that it is underpowered. The defensive and offensive utility of Magnetize almost feels a little too powerful. At this point it seems safe to conclude those who insist it isn't are simply refusing based upon some strange sense of loyalty to Old Mag.

And the cheese continues: as the bubble is being used to block paths now. Put the bubble at the door and presto, they walk right into it deal. Before that is the screams of delight of using bugs to get kills.

Didn't need to cheese Shield Polarize to do it's job. But then folks screamed that it was clearing whole rooms (i.e., taking their kills), so let's nerf Shield Polarize and hype clear cheese mechanics, instead (which will get nerfed again).

4 hours ago, GrimKonstantin said:

I think the main issue for me isn't that magnetize isn't a good ability (it really is) it's that feel like they kept her a one power pony with the rework. Crush still feels horribly weak for an ultimate, and you have to use an augment to change that at least for one faction. Pull is still nice CC, but the synergy doesn't add much more to it except gore. and polarize is just in an awful place, being it now has no scaling. Mind you, the main issue for me isn't the rework, so much as the rework how it relates to current enemy scaling. I would be happy if they said changes would be coming to that, instead of "we're looking into it."*

*In the business world "we're looking into it" means "we have no plans changing this, but we're telling you this so you can leave us alone and hopefully forget about it." It's a bad turn of phrase they use a lot.

BA didn't work for the same reason Magnetize doesn't work. It's a group ability. Most of the game isn't played in Sorties and raids, it's day-to-day missions and the Void.

This change was for Sorties as they recently brought in the Corpus version, and changed Mag so she couldn't one shot the Corpus Sorties.

3 years of a play style changed overnight for one type of game play (the Void has been around since 2014, and could've long been fixed).

Longer a frame isn't fixed/changed the longer players developed a certain way of playing a character. Players adapt to the routine changes, grumble about them but adapt. It's 180 turns in how that character is played -- and from why they choose the frame anyway -- yeah, it's an issue.

Mag was unique for what she offered when I picked her in 2014 (I normally don't play DPS characters, but had to pick A DPS character and picked the unique one not seen in MMORPGs anymore). 2016, after a stroke, it's not even an option to play other than Loki, because I can't see single targets in a sea of particle effects well anymore. Adapting isn't even possible. Why I'm not playing anymore, as Mag was the only frame I have I could play in groups, as it didn't rely on precision targeting.

[achromos]

Yea... Mag's totally useless now. (lol)  Damage wise, and all.  Just for those that continue to doubt, I had the perfect storm of Damage dealing frames vs me as mag.  most of the time Ash would bladestorm, they'd already be dead due to one or two quick shots to my magnitize.  The mesa was and saryn were both doing their thing and I still held my own too.

Yes, this is LAL low level draco, but I'm having situations like this in even Sorties, this is just a screenshot to show that running up vs other damage frames at level 30 too that she is a VERY good damage frame...  Yes I know the 'bug' with the lanka was fixed, but I put 5 forma into that thing and it still deals respectable damage and I could switch to any other high damage weapon as long as I had punch-through and still wipe the floor with enemies.

 

[HellEnforcer]

I just find it hilarious how people called her a one trick pony press 2 to win and they are defending her nerf by saying magnetize is a good offset for it. Magnetize is curiously her new 2, making her still the press 2 to win people have been calling her all along.

[Mc_Clane]

For fucks sake. mag is is not usless. It simply switched from polarize dependat to magnetize dependant. It's also not a matter of playstile. As it is, there is no way of eficiently playing mag without magnetize at lvl30+ the same way it was imposible for the old mag without shield polarize.

Leave magnetise be. Is pretty good as it is. the problem are the rest of the habilities. Whats de point of having 4 skills if you are mainly going to use the cheesy one and there is no efficient build on the others? You are just replacing polarize with magnetize (literally betwen 2 and 3)

 

As @HellEnforcer said Polarize has 2 main problems. First, the support nerf caused by the wave speed on the shield recovery. Second the fact that the hability is suposed to work at depleting shields and it do not deplete them cause the wave dinamic (and forget to to deplete reinforced shields with it as it is)

There are plenty of ways to fix that: 
- some delay in the explosions (i dont like it. it still needs depletion to work)
- 100% magnetic proc after damage, causing maximun shields to drop a 75% for x seconds. Not as good as damage based on % but a help at high levels and also some suportive for allies.
- Back to damage based on a % of the shields. Back to square one.
- Remove the explosion and replace it with a no AoE damage mechanic. 

Regarding the armour debuff... please make it usefull enought. as it is is some kind of crappy

Regarding Crush... I think that it really needs some fixing or even a hard rework. from casting time (really long), passing through the mechanic (plain damage) right into to the animation (somtimes it doesn't work, enemies being crushed can shoot you mid air, or after the crush they do not end knocked down, or somehow are inmune to the crushing animation)It feels lame that the ultimate power of a frame is in fact the most useless one

Edited June 3, 2016 by Mc_Clane

[Hypernaut1]

1. polarize needs magnetic damage and 100% proc

2. Crush needs to use armor shards for added puncture damage/procs and increased chance to drop energy orbs on death instead of pull

 

 

2 simple changes to help balance mags kit out.

[xmegarockx]

the solution is simple and easy......
delete mag and move on :D

[Velothed]

It's the same thing as with Saryn.

Many people just haven't figured out how to play her yet.

Still can't do much with polarize, but Magnetize might be one of my favorite abbilities right know.

Bubble + Projectile weapon (Telos Bolter in my case) decimated any enemies I face in my day to day play (Up to 40m T4 Survival, I usally don't run for longer)

Stalker and Sentients die in seconds.

Awesome survivabillity as I usually stay in my Bubbles, where nothing can hit me.

I used to only use mag in corpus sorties and than didn't enjoy her, now I love her.