Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Ikusias]

+1 for good exposition and effectively summarizing all the problems with Volt after the rework EnderDDT.

two parallel problems affecting Volt and further lowering the value of his kit are:

- warframe shield mechanics, that result in 1k point of shields being bypassed by a fart or any kind proc in general, usually oneshotting a de facto squishy frame;

- electric damage being in general bad against anything;

problem is that both issues arise from systemic problems with Warframe

[Wolfnrun]

3 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

+1 for good exposition and effectively summarizing all the problems with Volt after the rework EnderDDT.

two parallel problems affecting Volt and further lowering the value of his kit are:

- warframe shield mechanics, that result in 1k point of shields being bypassed by a fart or any kind proc in general, usually oneshotting a de facto squishy frame;

- electric damage being in general bad against anything;

problem is that both issues arise from systemic problems with Warframe

Yup yup yup! 

Oh my, this hit 60 pages...I feel tension 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Bump

[Wolfnrun]

@[DE]Rebecca Do you have anything for us?  

[_hello21_]

These "nerfs" are just good reworks that you need to know how to build for, the frames have gotten much better and more fun to play.

[Ikusias]

No _Hello21_ most of the latest reworks were a mess, please read my posts about volt in particular, then tell me what you think of the situation, as far as i'm concerned with this results Volt rework was pointless

To summarize if you don't want to search all the thread that is now insanely long:

- electricity procs are unreliable and have limited use - no extra damage to shields or anything,

- high shields don't protect due to procs bypassing them, accettable on npcs, not on warframes, a volt at maxed energy and shields dies like a cockroach to bleed proc for instance and gets wreked by toxic ancients,

- volt's base speed remains mediocre, after repeated and constant requests for improvements,

- volt kit is unchanged and didn't get any quality of life improvement except Speed recastability, nor any real sinergy or meaningful interactions between powers unlike Saryn's, nor it resembles a "set" in any way as only shock and discharge are in any way related,

- all his powers seem  to have a bit hidden cooldown before recasting - ever got the annoying power in use pop up trying to fry a couple grineers with consecutive discharges or shocks?

- shock remains mediocre due to the energy type damage and being still a single cast - would have hurt turning in a scaled version of the amprex? making all power parameters meaningful in modding it? (Volt is a starter frame, it needs to teach new players how modding powers intensity, duration, range and efficency for different priorities),

- speed become recastable on the run and opt out, still its animation and activation delay steal precoious time from its duration and get your frame killed when you need to "get out of Dodge" asap - compounded with Volt's base peed remaining absolutely mediocre for no reason - it's a light frame unit with low armor and not an armored behemoth like frost or rhino,

- electric shield still doesn't seem to scale except in duration and got also hit with a pointless limit to the number of electric shields deployable + very subpar and pointless sub-ability with riot shield consuming way more energy that even Ivara's provl with a fraction of the utility and a bunch of overkill limitations (n.b riot Shield is currently unusable without a maximum efficency build and maxed energy regen focus, plus a primed continuity), if we lost the limitless deployment of electric shield due to the implementation of riot shield someone at DE hit his/her head (not strongly enough to avoid this mess unfortunately),

- discharge, apart for the name that recalls something happening when suffering severe digestion problems, doesn't deliver anything worthwhile after years of complaints on overload and repeatedly shoots itself in the foot with contraddicting limitations and requirements, as its own damage disables CC before the full run of the power duration, targeting problems, mediocre total capped damage and scaling and general unreliability, forced "on the ground" casting with a squishy frame, non recastability and mediocre interaction with all the other powers in the set - we were expecting the Volt overload from the old warframe trailers and we got a cheap cinese knockoff!

[_hello21_]

I never really used electric shield and i still dont cause its a mobility game, and his 4th ability is really good, stopping any enemies from moving for a while, and draining their health and in large groups it kills really quickly, and with the augment you have a shield recharge constantly that is very good, you can lock down maps with good range and duration as long as you have energy and keep yourself alive with the augment. its much more useful now for controlling crowds and is much better late game. shock is fine and was fine whats the problem? you can stun a small group of enemies for a second and kill them with something else if you want. speed works well for getting around to stay alive as well as getting his passive power up faster. discharge only being usable on the ground now does suck but i understand because of how much better it is for controlling a large area. Just build for the change and it will be more fun and better than you think.

[Ikusias]

To put it simply De promised the moon and the stars and gave us just a grainy picture in the end instead of the real deal

[Cytobel]

The issue is that we've already pointed out all the relevant facts over and again.  DE simply doesn't care.

Nevermind the fact that we are complaining about issues that actually exist.  Nevermind the fact that we have pointed out the specific problems we have in exquisite detail.  Nevermind the fact that most of the problems could be fixed easily and quickly if someone just adjusted a bit of coding, ran it through QA/testing, and cleared it through the design team.  Lets look at the basic point:  Volt isn't intended to be playable at the same levels of the top teir 'Frames.

Hell, the fact is that there are tiers of 'Frames.  I had conniptions when I saw one of the first Devstreams talking about different tiers of gear, and this is why.  The concept is a bad notion for games like this one because it poisons the minds of the Devs slowly

If things are allowed to be scaled differently, then why not make this move or that ability less effective here or there?  Why not add massive cooldowns to something, disreguarding more powerful abilities elsewhere just because they're "not the same"?  Why not creep in nerfs in place of fixes, saying that things aren't so bad if you just look closer?

I get the fact that the top teir are slated for "nerfs", but lets look at some of the work done lately: passives.  The differences in utility and viability are staggering.  Ember has to be set on fire to make use of hers?  Ash's makes everything he cuts basically bleed out, cause balanced?  Volt can't do anything at all to get anything at all out of a little bump in electric damage?  On the other hand you get utility passives like Oberon (which I'm actually okay with) and Mag's vacuum.

I'm honestly convinced that there are several teams working on everything, and nobody has a frikkin clue what's happening.  Worse, it feels like nobody gives a crap.

[_hello21_]

im not even gonna bother anymore.. me and my friends all say hes better like most other reworked frames too. But you guys have your own opinion so whatever~ have a nice day.

[Wolfnrun]

29 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

No _Hello21_ most of the latest reworks were a mess, please read my posts about volt in particular, then tell me what you think of the situation, as far as i'm concerned with this results Volt rework was pointless

To summarize if you don't want to search all the thread that is now insanely long:

- electricity procs are unreliable and have limited use - no extra damage to shields or anything,

- high shields don't protect due to procs bypassing them, accettable on npcs, not on warframes, a volt at maxed energy and shields dies like a cockroach to bleed proc for instance and gets wreked by toxic ancients,

- volt's base speed remains mediocre, after repeated and constant requests for improvements,

- volt kit is unchanged and didn't get any quality of life improvement except Speed recastability, nor any real sinergy or meaningful interactions between powers unlike Saryn's, nor it resembles a "set" in any way as only shock and discharge are in any way related,

- all his powers seem  to have a bit hidden cooldown before recasting - ever got the annoying power in use pop up trying to fry a couple grineers with consecutive discharges or shocks?

- shock remains mediocre due to the energy type damage and being still a single cast - would have hurt turning in a scaled version of the amprex? making all power parameters meaningful in modding it? (Volt is a starter frame, it needs to teach new players how modding powers intensity, duration, range and efficency for different priorities),

- speed become recastable on the run and opt out, still its animation and activation delay steal precoious time from its duration and get your frame killed when you need to "get out of Dodge" asap - compounded with Volt's base peed remaining absolutely mediocre for no reason - it's a light frame unit with low armor and not an armored behemoth like frost or rhino,

- electric shield still doesn't seem to scale except in duration and got also hit with a pointless limit to the number of electric shields deployable + very subpar and pointless sub-ability with riot shield consuming way more energy that even Ivara's provl with a fraction of the utility and a bunch of overkill limitations (n.b riot Shield is currently unusable without a maximum efficency build and maxed energy regen focus, plus a primed continuity), if we lost the limitless deployment of electric shield due to the implementation of riot shield someone at DE hit his/her head (not strongly enough to avoid this mess unfortunately),

- discharge, apart for the name that recalls something happening when suffering severe digestion problems, doesn't deliver anything worthwhile after years of complaints on overload and repeatedly shoots itself in the foot with contraddicting limitations and requirements, as its own damage disables CC before the full run of the power duration, targeting problems, mediocre total capped damage and scaling and general unreliability, forced "on the ground" casting with a squishy frame, non recastability and mediocre interaction with all the other powers in the set - we were expecting the Volt overload from the old warframe trailers and we got a cheap cinese knockoff!

^^^ @[DE]Steve Please notice us and shed some light on the topic 

[Cytobel]

32 minutes ago, _hello21_ said:

I never really used electric shield and i still dont cause its a mobility game, and his 4th ability is really good, stopping any enemies from moving for a while, and draining their health and in large groups it kills really quickly, and with the augment you have a shield recharge constantly that is very good, you can lock down maps with good range and duration as long as you have energy and keep yourself alive with the augment. its much more useful now for controlling crowds and is much better late game. shock is fine and was fine whats the problem? you can stun a small group of enemies for a second and kill them with something else if you want. speed works well for getting around to stay alive as well as getting his passive power up faster. discharge only being usable on the ground now does suck but i understand because of how much better it is for controlling a large area. Just build for the change and it will be more fun and better than you think.

Look, I mean this in the best possible way, but it sounds like Volt wasn't a major choice for you.  This doesn't devalue what you're saying, but lets consider the basic facts:

1. Shock:  Does not scale, improve with mods, or work as well after the stealth cooldown added, but the killer was the nerf (probably needed) to radial damage effects which killed the electric proc.

SOLUTION:  Maybe look into chaining limit removal or general scaling options.  It's a great first ability, but only if we roll it back to when it was first reworked (year before last?).

2. Energy Tax for Survival (errr... Speed):  What to say that hasn't been said?  It's a decent idea, but the numbers are terrible/wonked, and to make good use of it you really need to expend an precious mod slot.  You get more out of using Rush than you do from using this ability in the long term.

SOLUTION:  Acknowledge that this is far less powerful than some Dev somewhere fears and improve it's base duration while increasing Volt's sprint speed.  Else if, replace the ability with something that actually works without screwing over everything else Volt has in his kit (Static Flicker ftw?).

3. Riot Shield:  Costs more than toggled invincibility, far too easily accidentally activated, eats a gun, limited field of cover (which I like), and to really screw us all it slows us WHILE COSTING PER METER OF TRAVEL.

SOLUTION:  At this point I could talk numbers, but I'm getting tired of this ability in general.  How the hell is electricity supposed to even do that?  There are so many attached adddendums that the ability symbol needs to just be a damn asterisk.

4. Discharge:  Great ideas without the benefit of QoL considerations that make the move work higher end.  It's not BAD, but it's nowhere near the required reliability and the damage is irrelevant at best, harmful to the stun at worst.

SOLUTION:  Simple QoL improvements and a reduction on the stun timer would help.  It's cheesy as hell to be the 'Frame that just locks down the room, and they're stacking diminishing returns onto it to fix a stupid they made in the first place.  Eight seconds of stun is more than enough, and IF diminishing returns are required then at least let us lock things down for at least 5 seconds after all reductions.  The energy cost is too great for less.

5. Passive:  I'm still in love with the inspiration behind this ability.  Great story, and a wonderful lightbulb moment.  The application is off, the numbers are off, and the passive expects us to ignore Parkour 2.0, which is the best thing they've done to this game since I started in 2012.

SOLUTION:  I don't care.  Seriously, this one is beyond me right now.  The whole passive system is a bloody mess in general.

6. Stats:  I agree with that post by @EnderDDT last page.  When I started playing, Volt's stats were the weakest of the 4 Warframes due to Overload being the only real nuke in game.  Volt stood out as a DPS, but only due to a lack of comparison.  We now have other 'Frames that do everything Volt does, but better, and they ALL have better stats.

SOLUTION:  Bump up base Volt's energy pool to a max of 225 and his sprint speed to a 1.15, and just bump Volt Prime's speed to the same.

In the end, this isn't about just one or two variables that we're not okay with and saying aren't "good enough".  This isn't about the "fave 'Frame" coming up a bit short against one or two other abilities in game.  This is a thread of issues with a rework that didn't, and the problems that lead to us needing a res or failing a mission entirely.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Cytobel

[Wolfnrun]

This thread has been up for nearly 2 months with no resolve nor end in sight, what does this mean? What will happen? Will they just continue to ignore us? Aren't they supposed to intake our feedback? Busy or not, volt has issues that continue to persit, how much more must we endore...

Spoiler

I still have dream's that no matter what, I belive in. Volt is a diffrent dream, volt has more potential than a starter, Volt's cappabilites will at somepoint allow him to shread threw enemies in the battle field with ease, one day, I still belive... 

[LabMan95]

I've only been playing for a few months, and I remember choosing volt as my starter. Ever since I saw how good Excaliber is, I've completely regretted it. Excal can kill mobs lv 40 and up easily, while volt can barely do it to a few lv 10 guys. Spamming shock does next to nothing, speed is irrelevant mostly, shield is good but drain while carrying it is insane, and discharge is just strictly worse Bastille at this point. I've never seen volt as good, and I want to finally use him without my squad getting extremely upset

[Wolfnrun]

11 minutes ago, LabMan95 said:

I've only been playing for a few months, and I remember choosing volt as my starter. Ever since I saw how good Excaliber is, I've completely regretted it. Excal can kill mobs lv 40 and up easily, while volt can barely do it to a few lv 10 guys. Spamming shock does next to nothing, speed is irrelevant mostly, shield is good but drain while carrying it is insane, and discharge is just strictly worse Bastille at this point. I've never seen volt as good, and I want to finally use him without my squad getting extremely upset

^^^^^^^^^^

@[DE]Rebecca WE NEEED YOUUU!!!

Edited August 26, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[EnderDDT]

5 hours ago, Ikusias said:

No _Hello21_ .... (Snip)

 

Please, for the love of all that is Good and Holy, DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!

[voltocitygel]

11 hours ago, EnderDDT said:

 

Please, for the love of all that is Good and Holy, DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!

Feeding trolls makes them bigger.

 

on another note, only issues i have are riot shields limitations. Sure electric could be better, but damage 3.0 is coming. 

Passive is an awesome inspiration, and I like it. It's nice to get an AoE stun without using a slot. (Damage? Not so much.)

i like him, for the most part. 

[Toramaru]

Just after Nekros had his Prime released I realised something disturbing: EVEN NEKROS HAS 1.1 BASE SPRINT SPEED.

It seems Volt is still the Frame they jumbled every worst possible stat with a good energy pool.

[Samedi__]

3 Months later, still waiting for basics tweaks of the rework. I guess we will have to wait two more years before we can get another rework of the rework.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Ayaahuasca

[Wolfnrun]

29 minutes ago, Ayaahuasca said:

3 Months later, still waiting for basics tweaks of the rework. I guess we will have to wait two more years before we can get another rework of the rework.

Frustraiting, aint it? 

[_hello21_]

Im a troll cause i have a different opinion? k makes perfect sense.

[EnderDDT]

 

 

Since so many other people have already done it, I think I'll cave to peer pressure and talk about how my dream would be for Volt to be reworked. Hopefully this will shed some light on where Volt has problems and ways to fix them. My goals in designing this rework were 1. to keep him balanced within the Warframe system, 2. to keep both his accepted core identity while also solidifying him as a true "alternative to gunplay", and 3. to do so in such a way that will cause minimal strain on the programmers and therefore be both more likely to be quickly implemented and less likely to delay other projects. Furthermore multiple methods of power adjustment have been included to allow for individual abilities or the entire kit to be adjusted in the case of an imbalance, both for a lack and excess of power.

The biggest change I made was to basically replace the damage mechanics of "Shock" in order to give him a damaging ability that would allow him to be an "alternative to gunplay" without having to ultimately fall back on weaponry for damage. This would be accomplished by changing the ability's damage to increase exponentially by doubling the damage as it is used repeatedly (up to a cap on number of 10 uses) from an extremely low initial number. The other main changes to the ability are to drastically reduce the chain length (to a max of 2.5) and reduce the maximum links to 4 for balance purposes. Everything else about the ability, not pertaining to damage, was left the same in order to encourage ease of programming. Duration of the stacking timer would be 3 seconds and would force either continual use to keep the damage up or a new ramp-up each time. Base damage on the ability would be 50 with a stacking limit of 10, leading to a max damage of 25,600 base damage with an average damage over 10 uses being 5115 and a base cost of 250 energy for the buildup and a minimum of about 10 seconds worth of time for that buildup. Maximizing power strength at +250% equals a base and ramped up damage of 175/89,600 while efficiency at either 30% or 75% would reduce the ramp up cost to either 175 or 62.5 respectively.

If the 25,600 base ramped up damage or the 89,600 maximized ramped up damage seems high, then remember the late game damage numbers of some other weapons. Other end-game weapons, when fully modded and used correctly, can deal well over 100,000 damage per second, often to multiple enemies; and they do it with no ramp-up (immediate damage), no energy cost (ammo is more easily attained), almost no warframe mods necessary to make it work (only weapon mods, allowing the warframe mods to be used for other things), and can apply a variety of extremely valuable debuffs and much more valuable damage types (compared with electric). If an ability is truly going to allow a Warframe to be an "alternative to gunplay" than it must be capable of competing with the damage of guns. If it cannot compete than it is not a viable/competitive alternative. That is literally the definition of something being viable/competitive.

--------------------------------

Base stat changes:
Volt (not prime) max energy at lv30 up to 200
Volt and Volt prime's movement up to 1.2

Explanation: If you want Volt to be a caster frame, then he needs the energy to cast. In the past this has not been too much of an issue because he only had 2 abilities worth casting, fixing his abilities causes energy to be an issue again. The speed increase has been an issue for a while, the increase is an roundabout buff to the "speed" ability that does not actually increase the ability's power. It also allows more of a choice of use rather than making skill's use mandatory if people want to go fast. The movement speed increase also helps solidify him into the "gotta go fast" category that he has come to represent (though Loki and Nezha are still faster).

Passive changes:
Passive only discharges at 1000 damage and only discharges on skill use with a damaging component and applys to all simultaneous instances of damage or one second worth of damage applications in the case of the shocking speed augmentation. Also stacks on all movement, not just ground movement.

Explanation: this allows the damage to be, if not super meaningful at high levels, than at least notacable by being grouped together. The discharge only on ability use allows it to be saved for when it is most wanted and the application in all instances of damage keeps both allows it to be predictable and worthwhile to use in the best circumstances. If the damage seems too much than the buildup rate can be reduced. The non-ground movement stacking is done in acknowledgement of the parkour system.

Shock changes:
The range of links would be dropped to 1/1.5/2/2.5 and the number of links to 1/2/3/4. Damage would start at 35/40/45/50 and would double each use up to a max stack of 10 uses. Use timer would be at 3 seconds. Modable by power strength (for damage), power range (for link range), power duration (for use timer), and by efficiency.

Interactions: shock would have no interaction with speed. It would give his Energy Shield a single electric proc to all nearby enemies when it is first touched, requiring being shocked again to reload the shield buff. The buff would be suppressed (or lost, if suppression is too difficult to quickly program) when the shield was picked up. Shocking enemies affected by discharge would cause all enemies to release an additional instance of damage (as it currently does).

Explanation: given above for the main damage changes. The only other change is that it applys a single electric proc on touching the shield rather than damage. The single rather than constant nature of it is intended to be there for balance, though it could easily be made more lasting if Volt still has power issues.

Speed changes:
Duration increased to 15 seconds and applies to Rocket Jumps.

Explanation: The 15 second duration means that modding for duration is not so necessary nor painful. Application of the buff to Rocket Jumps (and therfore to air kicks and such) would be in recognition that this is how the majority of people move when they want to go fast and this movement buff should apply.

Shield changes:
Allow the shield's damage buffs to apply to abilities fired through it.

Explanation: if Volt is supposed to be a caster frame than his abilities must work when he is using them in conjunction with casting.

Riot Shield Changes:
Remove the weapon restriction, slow, cost per movement, and damage buffs while reducing the carry cost to 2 energy per second.

Explanation: DE seems convinced that something about the carryable shield is so brokenly powerful that it requires multiple major inhibitors to that power. While I disagree and understand that it will be unpopular, removing the damage buffs while carying the shield should calm any worries that removing the restrictions will make it broken. One or both of the damage buffs can be returned if Volt still has power issues.

Discharge Changes:
Volt fires a ball of energy that spreads out (via the current spread mechanic) when it hits either an enemy or a structure. Range to be reduced to 9/11/13/15. Duration to be decreased to 6/7/8/9, plus an electric proc applied on contact and reaplied at the end of each second. Damage to remain the same but enemies only shock one target at a time, preferring first those unaffected by the ability, second others affected by the ability, and finally themselves (with no delay between shifting targets). Ability damage bypasses armor. Damage cap removed.

Explanation: The decreased duration and range are compensations for the ranged application and the armor bypass. The armor bypass is necessary to ensure damage against highly armored targets. The decreased duration ensures the same damage is applied as the previous cap when one enemy is attacked, but now allows modding via power strength and duration. The targeting priority and immediate switch of targets allows for the ability to preform as advertised (a minefield of shocks) without loosing damage in differing circumstances. The change to have affected enemies only damage one target was made to avoid the runaway scaling in large groups that made the damage cap necessary in the first place. If further power reductions are deemed necessary than the damage can be decreased.

Edited August 28, 2016 by EnderDDT
content

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Ender for pres

[Wolfnrun]

4 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Ender for pres

 well, everything they say is on point, sooo I voted  @EnderDDT You are our voice

[TenGaugeBoson]

Volt is my main Frame.

His rework made him so freaking over powered I didn't think they would let us keep him!

If you are having problems clearing anything with him then I am confused.

I have 3 load outs for Volt.

#1 Speed + naramon =Melee.

         Maximize Strength and Duration and use "Shocking Speed" after your first Naramon pop you are basically invisible the rest of the mission I solo 40 minute t4's easy

#2 Over Shield & CC =Zenuric

        Maximize strength and range and use " Capacitance" Once your first focus pops you have all the enegy you need to cc entire maps through walls and everything.

#3 Balanced Speed+CC = Zenuric

        Maximize Strength Range and Duration. And use both the Syndicate mods above.And you are just an all around bad &#!.

 

Volt is likely the most powerful frame in the game at the moment...Arguably of coarse...but there is no reason what so ever to be even a little upset about his rework.Jeeze man I am afraid he is gonna get nerfed.