Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Ohmlink]

9 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Feel free to prove me wrong.  The best I will manage for Volt Prime is a 200% Str, 170% Eff, 145% Rng, and ~120% Dur.  I need to forma out a D polarity to make it happen, and drop Armored Agility for Intensify.  That's my "everything Volt" build statline.  I'll add a screenshot if needed.

http://content.screencast.com/users/Cytobel/folders/Jing/media/256f4661-f5d7-4599-9820-d0a53fde3d36/2016-07-23_0528.png

(Yeah, I'm gonna have Intensify sitting in the last slot and Stretch at max when I've releveled Volt Prime)

What is the content that normal Volt is intended to be compared to?

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 7/23/2016 at 3:31 PM, Ohmlink said:

What is the content that normal Volt is intended to be compared to?

What do you mean?

And now I'm going to assume I know what you meant, because I'm feeling sassy and you didn't reply, though I'm not sure you will be notified of my edit. Hopefully you see it later.

what is the content that normal mirage or normal inaros are supposed to be compared to? Or normal chroma? How about normal Valkyr?

HHhhmmmmm???

Volt has every right to be making it in endgame missions.

Edited July 25, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Hhhhmmm???

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On July 20, 2016 at 10:39 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I want fun too.

Why can't we have the Tau system and the Sol system? Warriors from the hell space that take the fight to the enemy.

I feel it's the perfect solution for how to cater to both sides, AND its in the lore.

 

What if...WHAT IF FORESHADOWING =

 

Tau--->Umbra }}}}}}>>>>>>B ??M  <<<<<<{{{{{{ Tenno<---Sol

Edited July 24, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

What if...WHAT IF FORESHADOWING =

 

Tau--->Umbra }}}}}}>>>>>>B ??M  <<<<<<{{{{{{ Tenno<---Sol

Umbra are supposedly going to have slightly altered abilities (although there's no telling what is truth and what is hype by now, it's been almost a year it seems..)

Umbra volt had better have (showing undeserved sense of entitlement) thunder dome and static twin, as well as the other abilities I can't remember. 

:p it would be nice

Edited July 24, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Would be

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

I'll try...one last time...to give serious feed back...

I'm not making stuff up. I'm just using what DE has given us in this rework, in game mechanics, and the stuff they have shown in warframe trailers. 

Shock, like a majority of first power damage abilities could benefit from being a held down ability. Video.

But since that is a pipe dream, it's just fine.

speed. It's ok. It's really not ok, but I don't think you will take back what you did to volts mobility. Duration could stand to be increased, but you just made it recastable, same difference.

Thanks for making it opt out.

But.

How about instead of making people back flip, you make it so they just stop sprinting. You press the button (what ever it is to stop sprinting on whatever platform you use) and volts speed causes you to still sprint at your warframes pace. And you can opt in and opt of speed as much as you want just by toggling sprint on and off. But no, backflips make sense, so it's just fine.

Electric sheild. Was fine. You added something. Riot sheild should : just have the timer the normal sheild has. Or have a set energy drain not based on how far you have moved or how fast you are moving, like normal toggle drain abilities. Not both.

But since you seem dead set on this being an awesome mechanic that needs to stay in, and added a " crowd control buff" to it, it would seen we are stuck with these things, so i guess that's fine too.

And Discharge.

You took away the beauty of destroying a map. That's fine.

You took away the ease of targeting enemies in another room. That's fine.

You took away the ability to mitigate damage by staying a mobile target through part of the animation. That's...

How about this? Your passive energy bursts out first, stunning enemies within the range of your discharg with whatever meager amount of 1000 damage you have saved up split between however many enemies, stunning them. If that kills an enemy before you can go through the animation, you probably shouldn't have been using discharge in that situation. It doesn't even explode lights anymore. And then that gives volt time to do his animation, with should be on the ground, and show him charging up energy. video. (like how nekros can cast souls of the dead in relative safety behind cover after using fear)

volt should not have to worry about dying at the end of his of his ult from not being able to move. Damage cap, or no damage cap, it doesn't matter. But good job De, you sort of made it into prism. 

Oh, and you could use sheild. That means volts ultimate actually cost anywere from 150, to 200 energy to cast. But it's synergy right? I mean saryn technically has to cast molt, then spores, then miasma, or sometimes just spores and miasma to do more damage, so it cost like 125/175. So that's fine.

Since you are fine with discharge being an ultimate that stuns everything at the expense of volt not being able to use power strength, which is needed for speed to do anything, or adequately protect himself, it's fine as is.

The passive should be set at 1000, not built up to 1000. It should drain small increments of static charge away from volt on attacks, so that automatic weapons see an actual benefit from this. Melee weapons will too. Slow rate of fire weapons will get shafted, but thatsbnothing new (nullifiers). You aren't penalized for trying to get loot. You dont lose it uselessly while attacking an enemy you could have killed in 15 different ways, but who you don't want to see you (camera, warden, enemy with its back turned towards you).

You static charge should provide the shock to enemies trying to get through electric sheild (--->if shock cant--->if it doesn't make sense for electric sheild to just do that on its own)

Your static charge should build up faster with speed, especially, ESPECIALLY since Volts riot shield drains faster with speed.

Your static charge should increase the amount of enemies shock chains to by one or two enemies when full, something small and trivial. Who cares?

You still can move around to build it, but you don't need to run back forth on a map, that is just to help it build up in the heat of battle. Again, it's 1000 damage. You should be focused more on the utility of this passive. I would hope you could be.

But since volt is not first priority, and Ash absolutely needs a passive that helps him deal more finisher damage,

It's fine as is.

That was it. I'm not going to say anything else. And if I am wrong on something, or something has changed, i would be glad to be proven wrong, as I haven't played Warframe in 4 days. And I'm ranting.

Edited July 24, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Rant

[SylvenStar]

23 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

People have been posting this truism for years, and it has never held water.  Please highlight why you think this is the case.

It has held water, actually, hence why the rework was done in the first place. And why it's still a work in progress. Since it is clear that the many posts that I and countless others have made clearly isn't enough for you, let me explain in even more detail:

DPS: Shock is electric damage with mediocre flat damage values. As electricity is extremely weak except against shields and robotics (which have absurdly high values to keep up with Grineer armor for difficulty at higher levels) this makes Shock unusable as a DPS tool, and is more of an Interrupt type ability. Shocking speed has similar damage values. Discharge literally has a cap on how much damage it can do.

There is no change after the rework.

 

Mobility:

Volt used to be a bit more mobile. However, his power set gave him zero reason to even be as mobile as Speed got him to be aside from dropping overloads (which actually was pretty useful for a variety of clutch situations). ES actually is counter-intuitive to this because it gave him a reason to HOLD STILL.

This has gotten worse with the rework because Volt's base mobility is now worse, and Speed is required to make him mobile ENOUGH to not die, rather than to be a bonus, and because Disharge is not useful at high levels at all except against Grineer. Even then, it's not fantastic.

 

Support:

Speed increased movement speed of allies for a short time to allow zipping through tiles. I don't recall if this increased melee speed much because I didn't use much melee back in my volt days. ES gave a single position a single direction of protection and damage boost. Decent, but absolutely no synergy with other powers, and not very good by itself. Great on paper, poor in practice. The only truly powerful support tool Volt has is Capacitance. Ignoring the fact that that takes out a mod slot, it takes time for Capacitance to actually have significant effect. (Except against corpus, but by that point you'd have to spam discharge to get to safety.)

This has worsened slightly because although Speed now has an opt-out option, and has added speed bonuses like reload speed, ES now has a cap on the number of shields, and volt's armor got cut to Vauban levels of tankiness (before his passive is accounted for) and thus, he can barely even work as a revivor.

CC:

Shock doesn't last nearly as long as it needs to to be remotely significant, and Shocking speed only tags one enemy at a time. Discharge always hits the damage cap and kills the CC effect except against high level Grineer. The CC is still nothing to brag about considering it's an Ultimate Ability.

Worsened since the rework except in the level 25-30 range.

 

Defense:

Despite the ES, Volt still works better to be mobile rather than stationary, which isn't ideal in defensive situations. ES does nothing for operative defense missions, and even when shocked, doesn't apply any sort of CC to enemies that casually walk through it. Discharge hits the damage cap quickly just because of the sheer number of enemies affected. Shock is irrelevant at even moderate levels except as an interrupt tool, which doesn't mean much anyways.

 

Burst Damage:

As explained in DPS, he doesn't have enough damage to have any kind of damage role. His passive doesn't change this in the slightest, despite being a power specifically for this role.

 

VIP Targeting:

He's actually pretty good at this, assuming you have the energy for it and completely ignore the "killing" aspect of single target focus. Shock someone a few times to hold them still long enough to catch up with them with speed, knock them over with an air slide (which ANYBODY can do) and gun them down. His powers don't even do the damage for single target focus except for ES. 

 

Tank:

Can you spam your discharge ability and still do damage while using the capacitance mod? Good. You'll live at higher levels. Translation: Volt relies on the over shields just to live long enough at higher levels. Relying on a power, an augment at that, to just barely make the benchmark does not make someone a tank.

 

Close Range:

Speed's melee speed boost is all that gives him this. It is definitely geared towards CQC by definition of being melee, but Volt is also too squishy to do this for very long, even WITH capacitance.

 

Long Range:

Get a good crit weapon, pop a few ES shields and you're good to go here! Too bad Volt doesn't have anything to stop enemies from getting close aside from his lackluster ultimate and a little interrupt.

 

Execution:

Volt has no tools that help him perform finishers. This is one area he at least doesn't try for unless you account for the attack speed boost he gets to finishers, which… isn't significant enough to count by itself. He shouldn't have to rely on Inaros and Valkyr to perform finishers.

 

Stealth:

Build maximum strength, and pour everything else into mobility mods, and you have a chance to move fast enough to not get detected by enemies. Before Volt's mobility nerf, this was actually a rather viable rush build.

 

Distraction:

He's not a tank and he's barely mobile enough to dodge anything at close range even WITH speed. He's not a distraction.

 

 

There. That should suffice for "Why Volt sucks at everything."

Edited July 24, 2016 by SylvenStar

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Hahahahaha....hahhahhahah...crying tears and trying to type laughter*

Someone in the mag rework said Volt has synergy...insinuating that mag didn't. As if volts powers work better together than mags...

But I didn't want to start a flame war, so I came to moan and complain here

It is apparently a pc problem, not my problem. Looking into it, it would seem nullifiers have completely screwed her over more than most other frames, or that's what some posts will have you believe.

Edited July 24, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Hmmm

[Wolfnrun]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Someone in the mag rework said Volt has synergy...insinuating that mag didn't. As if volts powers work better together than mags...

Ya...ok...no seriously? no...that is a JOKE

[RealPandemonium]

11 hours ago, SylvenStar said:

snip

This is a good example of a bombastic feedback post that's just a chore to read through, especially  soaked wit hyperbole and bias as it is.  Nonetheless, you did at least include headings for a degree of organization.

 

DPS:

Shock's damage potential was lowered not by the Volt rework, but by the AOE headshot nerf; merits another pass to make up for the reduced damage (perhaps Electric proc damage should be doubled to 100% of modified base.)  On the other hand, Discharge is straight-up stronger than Overload was.  Discharge's max damage = damage cap of 4000, while Overload's max damage was 675 * (675*(.5n)), where n = number of enemies within 5m of the target.  Overload only starts to beat Discharge when there are 10 or more enemies within 5m; Discharge is far-and-away superior for direct damage, and even does damage comparable to old -duration Miasma.  With a 227% powerstr build, Discharge's damage cap is 9080; for comparison, post-TF -duration Miasma would deal 10215.  No other radial nuke does damage even close to these examples.

Volt's shields offer a big damage increase to all teammates that use them, and the reload speed buff to Speed increases sustained DPS even further.  

 

Mobility: 

Volt's sprint speed did not go down after the update, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  It's also a common fallacy to say that "Volt's powerset gives him no reason to be mobile;" you don't need a powerset to have a reason to be mobile in this game.  Shields can even be carried now, so it's not like that power "forces" you to stand still (not that it ever did.)

 

Support:

Shields are capped at 6 but are almost double the size now.  Speed's melee speed increase was and is still game-changingly strong, especially for those that use quick melee and stance combos extensively.  Saying that Capacitance is the only useful support option on Volt is a purely opinion-based assertion on your part.  Volt's armor was not decreased by the rework, so again not sure what you're talking about there.

  

CC:

Shock doesn't have permaCC-levels of duration, but it is spammable, responsive, and can be cast while performing other actions.  Discharge's disparity in CC duration between damage-reduced enemies and enemies that take full damage doesn't feel right; perhaps a mod-scalable minimum and maximum could be introduced.

 

Defense:

Even Frost can have trouble defending the target in Sortie defense (nevermind that Snowglobe is a cheesy, conceptually broken power,) so that's whatever.  Discharge can give you a breather, as Overload once did in the best case, and Shock is far from useless even in level 70+ content.  Powers are supposed to help you win; not play the game for you.  Shields charged up with Volt's passive should proc on enemies that pass through them.

 

Burst Damage:

9080 damage for 25 energy is not bad, and is stronger than pretty much every other radial nuke in the current game.  Volt's passive feels bad because of its lack of scalability with mods and lack of synergy outside of Shield; that could stand to be looked at, but damage levels might change after Damage 3.0 to make the passive more relevant across various levels of content.

  

VIP Targeting:

Shield's damage bonus to guns and Shock's lockdown potential are pretty good single-target solutions; better than what many other frames have available.

 

Tank:

Volt doesn't have a gimmick that makes him effectively immortal, but he does have robust base shields on top of average health.  Redirection gives him a nice buffer of survivability that remains effective in 50+ content if you have good habits.  Capacitance is just icing on the cake.   

 

Close Range:

Speed + held Shield + Shock allow Volt to blitz enemies with big, heavy melees relatively safely; this is an improvement over before, when Volt could not hold his Shield.  Otherwise, complaining that Volt isn't melee-viable due to lacking an invulnerability gimmick is fallacious since it isn't a Volt problem; it's an "enemies above level 50" problem.  

 

Long Range:

Between Speed's sprint boost, Shield's protection and damage bonus, and Shock's on-demand stuns, Volt is one of Warframe's best snipers.  Last I checked, mass-disables were not part of the archetypal sniper's repertoire (and also defeat the purpose of sniping.)

 

Execution:

Since when are melee Finishers a box to check on all frames?  Volt can do counterattack finishers in the standard way when melee blocking, btw.  

 

Stealth:

Volt's movement speed was, again, not nerfed by the rework.  

 

Distraction:

See above sections referring to Volt's durability.  Third time, Volt's movement speed was not nerfed and he still has access to Speed.

 

In the end, you made a bunch of weak arguments for why Volt's powers suck, while implying that he needs more game-trivialization potential.  You also have yet to describe his supposed mod conflicts.  

Edited July 24, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[SylvenStar]

16 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

This is a good example of a bombastic feedback post that's just a chore to read through, especially  soaked wit hyperbole and bias as it is.  Nonetheless, you did at least include headings for a degree of organization.

 

.........

 

In the end, you made a bunch of weak arguments for why Volt's powers suck, while implying that he needs more game-trivialization potential.  You also have yet to describe his supposed mod conflicts.  

I won't bother arguing with somebody who's going to accuse me of making weak, biased arguments when these are the arguments being pushed by nearly everybody at one point or another.

You also ASKED for that kind of detail because you said that I didn't back up any of my points when, very clearly, I did before, so don't tell me that I'm writing too much, especially when you write an even bigger wall for a response. 

Back off, buddy, you're very obviously trying to make it look like I'm breaking my own argument. I'm not here to make enemies, neither should you be.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

This is a good example of a bombastic feedback post that's just a chore to read through, especially  soaked wit hyperbole and bias as it is.  Nonetheless, you did at least include headings for a degree of organization.

 

DPS:

Shock's damage potential was lowered not by the Volt rework, but by the AOE headshot nerf; merits another pass to make up for the reduced damage (perhaps Electric proc damage should be doubled to 100% of modified base.)  On the other hand, Discharge is straight-up stronger than Overload was.  Discharge's max damage = damage cap of 4000, while Overload's max damage was 675 * (675*(.5n)), where n = number of enemies within 5m of the target.  Overload only starts to beat Discharge when there are 10 or more enemies within 5m; Discharge is far-and-away superior for direct damage, and even does damage comparable to old -duration Miasma.  With a 227% powerstr build, Discharge's damage cap is 9080; for comparison, post-TF -duration Miasma would deal 10215.  No other radial nuke does damage even close to these examples.

Volt's shields offer a big damage increase to all teammates that use them, and the reload speed buff to Speed increases sustained DPS even further.  

 

Mobility: 

Volt's sprint speed did not go down after the update, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  It's also a common fallacy to say that "Volt's powerset gives him no reason to be mobile;" you don't need a powerset to have a reason to be mobile in this game.  Shields can even be carried now, so it's not like that power "forces" you to stand still (not that it ever did.)

 

Support:

Shields are capped at 6 but are almost double the size now.  Speed's melee speed increase was and is still game-changingly strong, especially for those that use quick melee and stance combos extensively.  Saying that Capacitance is the only useful support option on Volt is a purely opinion-based assertion on your part.  Volt's armor was not decreased by the rework, so again not sure what you're talking about there.

  

CC:

Shock doesn't have permaCC-levels of duration, but it is spammable, responsive, and can be cast while performing other actions.  Discharge's disparity in CC duration between damage-reduced enemies and enemies that take full damage doesn't feel right; perhaps a mod-scalable minimum and maximum could be introduced.

 

Defense:

Even Frost can have trouble defending the target in Sortie defense (nevermind that Snowglobe is a cheesy, conceptually broken power,) so that's whatever.  Discharge can give you a breather, as Overload once did in the best case, and Shock is far from useless even in level 70+ content.  Powers are supposed to help you win; not play the game for you.  Shields charged up with Volt's passive should proc on enemies that pass through them.

 

Burst Damage:

9080 damage for 25 energy is not bad, and is stronger than pretty much every other radial nuke in the current game.  Volt's passive feels bad because of its lack of scalability with mods and lack of synergy outside of Shield; that could stand to be looked at, but damage levels might change after Damage 3.0 to make the passive more relevant across various levels of content.

  

VIP Targeting:

Shield's damage bonus to guns and Shock's lockdown potential are pretty good single-target solutions; better than what many other frames have available.

 

Tank:

Volt doesn't have a gimmick that makes him effectively immortal, but he does have robust base shields on top of average health.  Redirection gives him a nice buffer of survivability that remains effective in 50+ content if you have good habits.  Capacitance is just icing on the cake.   

 

Close Range:

Speed + held Shield + Shock allow Volt to blitz enemies with big, heavy melees relatively safely; this is an improvement over before, when Volt could not hold his Shield.  Otherwise, complaining that Volt isn't melee-viable due to lacking an invulnerability gimmick is fallacious since it isn't a Volt problem; it's an "enemies above level 50" problem.  

 

Long Range:

Between Speed's sprint boost, Shield's protection and damage bonus, and Shock's on-demand stuns, Volt is one of Warframe's best snipers.  Last I checked, mass-disables were not part of the archetypal sniper's repertoire (and also defeat the purpose of sniping.)

 

Execution:

Since when are melee Finishers a box to check on all frames?  Volt can do counterattack finishers in the standard way when melee blocking, btw.  

 

Stealth:

Volt's movement speed was, again, not nerfed by the rework.  

 

Distraction:

See above sections referring to Volt's durability.  Third time, Volt's movement speed was not nerfed and he still has access to Speed.

 

In the end, you made a bunch of weak arguments for why Volt's powers suck, while implying that he needs more game-trivialization potential.  You also have yet to describe his supposed mod conflicts.  

Comparing miasma and discharge wasn't quite right....there's a difference between how they affect flesh health/armor/and sheilds...but I'm not a math guy so I can't put my finger on it.

9080 damage for 25 energy. What is that?

I would love to have that volt experience.

As long as we are being civil, and not trying to tear other people down, I would also be happy for you to be right. But there is something not quite right about volt and the rework he got. For a lot of people it would be something different, but many people have posted about the things they find wrong.

Something wrong that makes SylvenStars argument sound way more valid. 

 

[SylvenStar]

1 hour ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Comparing miasma and discharge wasn't quite right....there's a difference between how they affect flesh health/armor/and sheilds...but I'm not a math guy so I can't put my finger on it.

9080 damage for 25 energy. What is that?

I would love to have that volt experience.

As long as we are being civil, and not trying to tear other people down, I would also be happy for you to be right. But there is something not quite right about volt and the rework he got. For a lot of people it would be something different, but many people have posted about the things they find wrong.

Something wrong that makes SylvenStars argument sound way more valid. 

 

Probably the part where he pulls 25 energy from max efficiency and 9080 from maximum strength damage cap.

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Comparing miasma and discharge wasn't quite right....there's a difference between how they affect flesh health/armor/and sheilds...but I'm not a math guy so I can't put my finger on it.

9080 damage for 25 energy. What is that?

I would love to have that volt experience.

As long as we are being civil, and not trying to tear other people down, I would also be happy for you to be right. But there is something not quite right about volt and the rework he got. For a lot of people it would be something different, but many people have posted about the things they find wrong.

Something wrong that makes SylvenStars argument sound way more valid. 

 

3 hours ago, SylvenStar said:

Probably the part where he pulls 25 energy from max efficiency and 9080 from maximum strength damage cap.

It is possible to have 227% power strength while also retaining max efficiency.  2.27 * 4000 = 9080.

Miasma has + 75% damage and 75% armor ignore on Ferrite, -50% against Proto Shield, and is neutral otherwise.  Electric has +50% against Robotics and -50% damage and +50% armor against Alloy.  Electric's dire weakness against Alloy is why Volt's damage is lacking against some Grineer units (unfortunately, these include Elite Lancers, which are most common, as well as Eviscerators, Napalms, and Bombards, which while uncommon are also the most dangerous.)

Electric damage's weakness against Grineer is not a Volt-specific problem, but a more general problem for all Electric damage and also mainly a consequence of broken armor scaling.  

SylvenStar's argument may sound more a reasonable to some, but it is based largely in opinion and willfully ignores some of the good points of the Volt we currently have in order to suggest that a more drastic rework is desirable.  "Other frames are OP so Volt should be too" is also not a great argument in any context.  He is ultimately more interested in indulging in his feelings about Volt than he is in setting the record straight in an unbiased way.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

35 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

It is possible to have 227% power strength while also retaining max efficiency.  2.27 * 4000 = 9080.

Miasma has + 75% damage and 75% armor ignore on Ferrite, -50% against Proto Shield, and is neutral otherwise.  Electric has +50% against Robotics and -50% damage and +50% armor against Alloy.  Electric's dire weakness against Alloy is why Volt's damage is lacking against some Grineer units (unfortunately, these include Elite Lancers, which are most common, as well as Eviscerators, Napalms, and Bombards, which while uncommon are also the most dangerous.)

Electric damage's weakness against Grineer is not a Volt-specific problem, but a more general problem for all Electric damage and also mainly a consequence of broken armor scaling.  

SylvenStar's argument may sound more a reasonable to some, but it is based largely in opinion and willfully ignores some of the good points of the Volt we currently have in order to suggest that a more drastic rework is desirable.  "Other frames are OP so Volt should be too" is also not a great argument in any context.  He is ultimately more interested in indulging in his feelings about Volt than he is in setting the record straight in an unbiased way.

Well, there is no villain in this situation.

Not Sylven, and not you Real....

(resisting urge to say panda...).

But I sympathize with Sylven, partly even because of some things you yourself just pointed out, like:

·Electricity damage does need a rework and/or armor scaling needs to be fixed.

·Feeling indulgence. Although we can accept the way things are and accept the good with the bad, I don't sit with that at all. Yes, Volt has good sides. Yes, it is awesome that you fight for him

- we got more than we probably should have in changes to the rework (6 sheilds instead of 4/opt out speed)...but the sheild limit was nothing we ever asked for in the first place so it felt like we were ransoming with a hostage taker, and the opt out for speed is a back flip. That solves maybe the problem of being stuck against a wall from speed you didn't ask for, but I personally believe a more natural feeling opt out would be Sprint toggle....back flip could just outright cancel the ability, but instead of giving volt higher speed duration, they made it recastable, so...trolling is easier for the immatures out there. Why back flip when your stuck right back into speed? Why not just toggle Sprint?

My brand of feeling indulging usually leads into pessimism, sarcasm, and melodrama. ~ I don't believe anyone at DE would really ever consider a new ability for volt, when they are right now so focused on putting limits on him. Those limits might seem tiny to you, but for me, sometimes I'd rather just have the old guy. But I still have what I feel in my heart is right for volt. And everyone else here. And I know you do too, so at the very least, don't attack Sylvens statements as weak. If you know You are right, or strongly believe it, let your info do the talking.

#stormriders#high-level corpuschallenge.

I challenge someone to take the new volt on a high level Endless corpus run. Neptune/Pluto. And see how long you can make it.~solo. 

My Wi-Fi is iffy right now, but I'll try to post a video too

Edited July 25, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Me too

[LascarCapable]

Please stay on topic. Also try to respect everyone's opinion : there's no need to show any antagonistic behaviours. If anything, being agressive will only bring you problems.

[Brasten]

I stopped posting in this thread because it seemed like the core issues with the rework were already fairly well established

• ES Riot mode has too many restrictions, mostly energy consumption issues
• Discharge has inconstant CC on Vulnerable and tightly packed enemies
• Speed should increase Bullet Jump Velocity, and/or have some positive impact on Parkour 2.0 movement 
• Speed (and other party buffs) need a better Opt-Out system.
• Base (not prime) Volt likely needs some stat buffs, especially to Power
• Volt could likely use  a base sprint speed buff: 1.10 

Most everything else is Play issues on a Player by Player basis and what they "feel" Volt should be, regardless of what he actually is.

I run Volt Prime at 145% Strength, 145% Range, 130% Efficiency, 183% Duration, backed by full Zenurik Focus Energy Overflow, and Capacitance. I don't use Shocking Speed anymore (wasn't using really at all before the rework, causes issues with getting stealth kills on targets). I favor Duration over Strength because of the quirks with Discharge's damage cap are going to be hit on Vulnerable Robotics quickly anyways. Against everything else, enemy scaling and armor just means I want the hard CC to last for a good long time, and the damage will be rubbish.

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

As electricity is extremely weak except against shields and robotics (which have absurdly high values to keep up with Grineer armor for difficulty at higher levels) this makes Shock unusable as a DPS tool, and is more of an Interrupt type ability. Shocking speed has similar damage values. Discharge literally has a cap on how much damage it can do.

As already noted Electricity Damage is +50% to Robotics (Machinery) and -50% to Alloy Armor, and neutral to everything else. The problems with Grineer Armor is an artifact of the out of control enemy scaling, not an intrinsic problem to Discharge, Shock or Electricity damage itself.

The Damage Cap on Discharge has some interesting issues more for Robotic and enemies Weak to Electricity than to enemies resistant to it. Another issue on Discharge is the Re-Cast Time, the animation lock and recovery from Volt against high level clustered weak enemies prevents him from spamming Discharge the way Ash, Oberron, Frost, and many other frames can spam their Ults. If Volt didn't have such long Re-Cast period he would be able to annihilate packed Robotic type enemies with 2 or 3 casts. The problme really happens because the Damage Cap on Discharge is reached so fast (so much damage is being done so quickly) on high level (100+) Robotic enemies that it breaks in about one or two seconds, longer than the Cast/Cool-down of the power. (Test it yourself in the Simulacrum)

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

This has gotten worse with the rework because Volt's base mobility is now worse, and Speed is required to make him mobile ENOUGH to not die, rather than to be a bonus, and because Disharge is not useful at high levels at all except against Grineer. Even then, it's not fantastic.

Volt has only gotten less mobile by way of Speed not boosting Parkour 2.0 moves, which it didn't really do before the rework. Volts base land speed hasn't been changed. The only thing lost is the Air Cast of Overload, which allowed one to Bullet Jump and Aim Glide while casing Overloads. Of course I went right back to what I do on Frost (who is also ground locked) and did before Air Casts Overload was a thing, Slide Cast. Most animations that lock you to the ground can be cover come by casting while sliding, which is impacted by the momentum imparted by Sprinting at Speed. You can also cast Discharge while Wall Latched, although that gets funky in how it spreads.

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

Speed increased movement speed of allies for a short time to allow zipping through tiles. I don't recall if this increased melee speed much because I didn't use much melee back in my volt days.

Speed always increased Melee swing speed (back in closed beta that was partly because speed just boost the actual animation play rate). It's been one of Volts main attractions as a Melee fighter. And as a group melee booster. It made weapons the like the Fragor viable.

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

ES gave a single position a single direction of protection and damage boost. Decent, but absolutely no synergy with other powers, and not very good by itself.

ES was great by itself, still is great. Especially when you stack 3 of them together for 150% bonus Electricity damage (with the noted issues about Electricity damage against Alloy armor). Considering that in most mission enemies come from a single direction, and sometimes behind, its directional coverage is usually enough. There are enough choke points for that to work well. Even with the 6 shield limit you can get a fairly good coverage. Prior to the rework I really never need more than 6 to provide effective coverage. The new limit just requires some more thought about placement and re-placement. The Duration was often more of a limiting factor than the total number that could be spammed.

Since ES gives Splash damage blocking, it's a great coverage tool against Napalms, Bombards, and explosion spammy bosses like Kela De Thaym.

ES doesn't synergy with "gotta go fast sanic", but that isn't what Volt is exclusively. If that's all you see Volt as you are really missing out on what he brings. Volt is a Tactical frame. He makes things happen for his team. It could be Speeding them out of harms way (physical speed and movement does impact AI aim bots). It could be creating a defensible line with ES. It could be a quick Stun with Shock, or a longer one with Discharge. You have to read the battle and apply this powers where they are needed. It's not Volt's fault that teammates wander forward in front of ES instead of standing behind it.

And yes Discharge boosted the utility of Capacitance to mod worth considering, where before it was a dumpster and only party usable for Volt personally.

Volt's Team Support job is to set up the room. With

Speed and good use of the movement system, Volt can cover most fighting spaces, allowing him to strategically place 3 or 4 ESs around the fighting space, or to move to cover allies who've gotten themselves in a bad place. I'm often diving into to revive Puggies who get themselves downed with a combo of Discharge and ES.

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

Discharge always hits the damage cap and kills the CC effect except against high level Grineer. The CC is still nothing to brag about considering it's an Ultimate Ability.

Worsened since the rework except in the level 25-30 range.

Agreed that the variable nature of Discharge's CC due to Armor (or lack there of) is a big issue. Especially on high level clustered vulnerable enemies (mainly Corpus robotics). Which is really the only enemy tightly high level (100+) packed Corpus robotics, that the CC is bad against.

Disagree that the CC of volt has been worsened. If anything it's been vastly improved in almost all situations expect as I keep mentioning clustered Corpus Robotics. Enhanced Armor modifier on Sorties makes me grin as Volt these days. As it means I can just Discharge the room, then take my time with higher duration (183%) to just wander around for 20ish seconds and put my weapon in enemy faces for free head-shot critical damage, execution style.

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

Despite the ES, Volt still works better to be mobile rather than stationary, which isn't ideal in defensive situations. ES does nothing for operative defense missions, and even when shocked, doesn't apply any sort of CC to enemies that casually walk through it. Discharge hits the damage cap quickly just because of the sheer number of enemies affected. Shock is irrelevant at even moderate levels except as an interrupt tool, which doesn't mean much anyways.

ES works just fine, and because of Riot mode can be picked up and re-positioned. On any defense map besides Sortie Operatives ES can subsitute expensively for a missing Frost, but is one of the few other frames that can actually drop a solid defenstives strcture to block incoming enemy fire on the Defense point. And if you do it smartly, looking for Choke points and common AI firing lines, Volt works great ins Static defensive situations. Volt's mobility with Speed allows him to dart out and back to the defensive line as the Tactical situation changes.

If build Discharge for Duration, against any enemy but High Level Robotics it's equally a great CC tool. Even against Infested who tend to mob up. Some good uses of Shock can help spread out a wave of Infested Melee so they aren't as clumped by they time they hit Discharge range. Kinda works on Robotics, but still chancy.

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

As explained in DPS, he doesn't have enough damage to have any kind of damage role. His passive doesn't change this in the slightest, despite being a power specifically for this role.

Agreed the Passive is a bit of a joke. Although having it apply Electricity damage procs to high status weapons is less of ones if you can get it to proc on a pack of enemies and to that 50% splash damage. Turns weapons like the Lanka into mini-rocket launchers. A note about the Passive charge build, the passive builds at the same rate as long as you are moving. If you are scoped in with weapon (plenty of mods benefit from that now) you will build the same amount of charge, moving less physical distance.

Disagree with the damage output in general. Again the issue goes back to Enemy Scaling in Health and Armor, and the damage typing of Electricity. And as I mentioned the Re-cast delay on Discharge. If Volt could spam Discharge like Frost can Avalanche, Volt would be the go-to high level Corpus killer. Even with the cap. 

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

Can you spam your discharge ability and still do damage while using the capacitance mod? Good. You'll live at higher levels. Translation: Volt relies on the over shields just to live long enough at higher levels. Relying on a power, an augment at that, to just barely make the benchmark does not make someone a tank.

Never saw Volt as a Tank, but he does have an pseudo-immortally gimmick in Electric Shield Riot Mode. If you place yourself well. Even just base ES now that it blocks splash damage, and the new  general ability to melee grenades, setting up a good shooting stand can be hard for enemies. If you are dismissing Electric Shield because you don't think it fist in his "gotta go fast sanic" kit, then it is not surprising you are missing one of his main survival tools.

Personally I actually put less value on shields at higher level play, give the kinds of damage that just slides right through it. Toxin and Bleed procs especially. So I still back full shields and Capacitance with a full Vitality on Volt because his armor is so light  (although the Prime helps with that).

Also good movement habits, especially bullet jumping and sliding (at Speed) allow for a good amount of enemy fire mitigation.

19 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Close Range:

Long Range:

Volt, given his armor and powers, is a Hit and Fade attacker a close ranges. Speed (and if you are using the Shocking Speed instead of throwing actual Shocks) is there to diving in, close range weapon (with reload time buff helping) or melee weapon a few select enemies to death, then retreat back to a safe location, such as a pre-placed ES (or just place a new ES in the space you just cleared). Volt is not, in general, a sustained close quarters combatant. Speed really allows for larger slower multi-target melee weapons to be quite deadly. I've experimented to my satisfaction with Fragor Prime, Lesion, Jat Kittag, and Atterax (whip). Along more traditional "fast" melee weapons like the Prisma Dual Cleavers, Tekko, and Dual Ichor. Dash in, slice/chop/pound quick, spring away, Volt Close Combat.

And Volt is one of the best Sniper users. Stacked ESs for 150% bonus damage on already high damage weapons, with Electric status to for that 50% splash damage on clustered enemies. Again I cite the Lanka.

And as before the hard CC on just about everything but packed Corpus Robotics, can allow a Volt to casually stroll through enemies and execute with head shots. Or at range, line up Lanka shots. While it doesn't open up finishers, it's still easy target elimination if you use the correct weapon. Again, favoring Duration over Power Strength.

I've run Volt as a Sniper and a Shotgun executor. Both work well at higher levels of play. There are only two enemies I genuinely dread fighting. Packs of 15-20 Proxies standing less 5 meters or less from each other (which actually doesn't happen all that much outside of Simulacrum), and 3+ Nullfiers covering each other (and every other enemy) with their bubbles (but Nullifiers are a badly designed and deployed enemy unit anyways, so I really just dread broken game mechanics that punish everything expect high RoF weapons)

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

Stealth:

Build maximum strength, and pour everything else into mobility mods, and you have a chance to move fast enough to not get detected by enemies. Before Volt's mobility nerf, this was actually a rather viable rush build.

There was no nerf. There was no buff. Stop using Shocking Speed and you'll be stealthier. You can often move fast enough on Speed alone (no extra mobility mods) to get out of enemy LoS before the AI can react. If you use good movement, bullet jumping and aim glides, over enemies' heads and above their sight cones, you can do non-invis stealth runs.

The only issue remains that Speed doesn't impact Bullet Jump Velocity. Momentum retention out of a sprint and gained off a well timed double jump were considered "Bugs" by DE. Which is not a Nerf to Volt, but a general "fix/issue". Try sliding more, including Air sliding.

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

He's not a tank and he's barely mobile enough to dodge anything at close range even WITH speed. He's not a distraction.

Volt isn't built for standing in close combat melee for protracted periods, his stat line of 15 armor on base Volt should tell you this. To be a distraction Volt sets up a shooting stand with ES and STANDS in the open, as an easy target for the AI to pick out, behind his invulnerable Electric Shield. The constant dismissal of Electric Shield early on is part of the reason why I see problems in your analysis of this Volt rework.

Electric Shield is a solid defensive power, used to create mobile cover where none exists. It is used to create a defensible save zone for Volt and his allies to return to after hitting fast. Hit and fade. As a Riot Shield it allows Volt to be very deliberate, moving forwards slowly while drawing enemy fire and taking the time to eliminate high value targets with 50% bonus damage and aimed head/weak-point shots.

Volt is a Tactical Warframe, not a pure Speed Demon. His kit it tooled around Tactical Utility, which swaps from speeding to re-position and creating a static defense point.

An example case is dealing with Corpus Nullifiers (the broken things). Deploy a "Safe point" ES, from there use good maneuvering (including a bullet jump or two) to close into the Nullifier bubbles (plural), eliminate the Nullifers with gun or melee, then Speed out and back to a distance and start shooting from behind an ES. I also throw in a Ground Sliding Discharge once the bubbles are down. Hit and fade, lighting strikes and tactical positioning.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Brasten

[voltocitygel]

15 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Well, there is no villain in this situation.

Not Sylven, and not you Real....

(resisting urge to say panda...).

But I sympathize with Sylven, partly even because of some things you yourself just pointed out, like:

·Electricity damage does need a rework and/or armor scaling needs to be fixed.

·Feeling indulgence. Although we can accept the way things are and accept the good with the bad, I don't sit with that at all. Yes, Volt has good sides. Yes, it is awesome that you fight for him

- we got more than we probably should have in changes to the rework (6 sheilds instead of 4/opt out speed)...but the sheild limit was nothing we ever asked for in the first place so it felt like we were ransoming with a hostage taker, and the opt out for speed is a back flip. That solves maybe the problem of being stuck against a wall from speed you didn't ask for, but I personally believe a more natural feeling opt out would be Sprint toggle....back flip could just outright cancel the ability, but instead of giving volt higher speed duration, they made it recastable, so...trolling is easier for the immatures out there. Why back flip when your stuck right back into speed? Why not just toggle Sprint?

My brand of feeling indulging usually leads into pessimism, sarcasm, and melodrama. ~ I don't believe anyone at DE would really ever consider a new ability for volt, when they are right now so focused on putting limits on him. Those limits might seem tiny to you, but for me, sometimes I'd rather just have the old guy. But I still have what I feel in my heart is right for volt. And everyone else here. And I know you do too, so at the very least, don't attack Sylvens statements as weak. If you know You are right, or strongly believe it, let your info do the talking.

#stormriders#high-level corpuschallenge.

I challenge someone to take the new volt on a high level Endless corpus run. Neptune/Pluto. And see how long you can make it.~solo. 

My Wi-Fi is iffy right now, but I'll try to post a video too

Yes. You are very correct. I dislike repeat posting, but I feel my opinon had changed considerably after more gameplay. I believe the issue people have with discharge is psychological. They see "damage max" and think "that's my damage limit. This is a nerf." In reality, every ability has a "maximum damage", it's just typically listed as "damage". It deals nice damage, has nice CC, and can be rediculous when used well. Capacitance usually maxes my over shields in one cast. (I run 145% strength, 155% duration, 145% range, and 130% efficiency.)

I like volt as is, as he isn't the issue. (Except riot shield's absurd energy drain, but I already had several rants about it.) the issue here is broken enemy scaling, and electric damage's weakness to high level grineer units. 

P.S. I have run volt solo in high level endless. Works for me quite well. I tend to prefer endless missions, and play solo when my girlfriend and other friends/clannies don't feel like joining me. I find I can typically do better with volt than with my nova or Mesa (my secondary and tertiary frames), especially solo. I even solo sorties from time to time for the fun of it. 

[SylvenStar]

17 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:

Yes. You are very correct. I dislike repeat posting, but I feel my opinon had changed considerably after more gameplay. I believe the issue people have with discharge is psychological. They see "damage max" and think "that's my damage limit. This is a nerf." In reality, every ability has a "maximum damage", it's just typically listed as "damage". It deals nice damage, has nice CC, and can be rediculous when used well. Capacitance usually maxes my over shields in one cast. (I run 145% strength, 155% duration, 145% range, and 130% efficiency.)

I like volt as is, as he isn't the issue. (Except riot shield's absurd energy drain, but I already had several rants about it.) the issue here is broken enemy scaling, and electric damage's weakness to high level grineer units. 

P.S. I have run volt solo in high level endless. Works for me quite well. I tend to prefer endless missions, and play solo when my girlfriend and other friends/clannies don't feel like joining me. I find I can typically do better with volt than with my nova or Mesa (my secondary and tertiary frames), especially solo. I even solo sorties from time to time for the fun of it. 

Capacitance is the only thing that makes Discharge useful. There's a little detail you might be missing, not sure if ya are, but just in case, that damage cap is on total damage output. Other abilities have a per-enemy damage basis hitting the thousands, such as World on fire dishing out several ticks of over 500 damage to all enemies within range. The 5,000 base damage cap isn't that a single enemy will take 5,000 damage, it's that the combined damage of all affected enemies can max out at 5,000 damage. It's divided amongst the affected enemies, meaning if you ult in a typical fashion where more than 10 enemies are being hit, each enemy will take 500 damage or less. This is why players don't even see the DoT effect even start against high level corpus. So many enemies take that first tick of damage so that the cap is reached instantaneously. If the damage cap were, say, 3,000 damage, but it was restricted to that enemy, I would be far happier. It would make sense.

Edited July 25, 2016 by SylvenStar

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On July 24, 2016 at 3:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

It has held water, actually, hence why the rework was done in the first place. And why it's still a work in progress. Since it is clear that the many posts that I and countless others have made clearly isn't enough for you, let me explain in even more detail:

DPS: Shock is electric damage with mediocre flat damage values. As electricity is extremely weak except against shields and robotics (which have absurdly high values to keep up with Grineer armor for difficulty at higher levels) this makes Shock unusable as a DPS tool, and is more of an Interrupt type ability. Shocking speed has similar damage values. Discharge literally has a cap on how much damage it can do.

There is no change after the rework.

 

Mobility:

Volt used to be a bit more mobile. However, his power set gave him zero reason to even be as mobile as Speed got him to be aside from dropping overloads (which actually was pretty useful for a variety of clutch situations). ES actually is counter-intuitive to this because it gave him a reason to HOLD STILL.

This has gotten worse with the rework because Volt's base mobility is now worse, and Speed is required to make him mobile ENOUGH to not die, rather than to be a bonus, and because Disharge is not useful at high levels at all except against Grineer. Even then, it's not fantastic.

 

Support:

Speed increased movement speed of allies for a short time to allow zipping through tiles. I don't recall if this increased melee speed much because I didn't use much melee back in my volt days. ES gave a single position a single direction of protection and damage boost. Decent, but absolutely no synergy with other powers, and not very good by itself. Great on paper, poor in practice. The only truly powerful support tool Volt has is Capacitance. Ignoring the fact that that takes out a mod slot, it takes time for Capacitance to actually have significant effect. (Except against corpus, but by that point you'd have to spam discharge to get to safety.)

This has worsened slightly because although Speed now has an opt-out option, and has added speed bonuses like reload speed, ES now has a cap on the number of shields, and volt's armor got cut to Vauban levels of tankiness (before his passive is accounted for) and thus, he can barely even work as a revivor.

CC:

Shock doesn't last nearly as long as it needs to to be remotely significant, and Shocking speed only tags one enemy at a time. Discharge always hits the damage cap and kills the CC effect except against high level Grineer. The CC is still nothing to brag about considering it's an Ultimate Ability.

Worsened since the rework except in the level 25-30 range.

 

Defense:

Despite the ES, Volt still works better to be mobile rather than stationary, which isn't ideal in defensive situations. ES does nothing for operative defense missions, and even when shocked, doesn't apply any sort of CC to enemies that casually walk through it. Discharge hits the damage cap quickly just because of the sheer number of enemies affected. Shock is irrelevant at even moderate levels except as an interrupt tool, which doesn't mean much anyways.

 

Burst Damage:

As explained in DPS, he doesn't have enough damage to have any kind of damage role. His passive doesn't change this in the slightest, despite being a power specifically for this role.

 

VIP Targeting:

He's actually pretty good at this, assuming you have the energy for it and completely ignore the "killing" aspect of single target focus. Shock someone a few times to hold them still long enough to catch up with them with speed, knock them over with an air slide (which ANYBODY can do) and gun them down. His powers don't even do the damage for single target focus except for ES. 

 

Tank:

Can you spam your discharge ability and still do damage while using the capacitance mod? Good. You'll live at higher levels. Translation: Volt relies on the over shields just to live long enough at higher levels. Relying on a power, an augment at that, to just barely make the benchmark does not make someone a tank.

 

Close Range:

Speed's melee speed boost is all that gives him this. It is definitely geared towards CQC by definition of being melee, but Volt is also too squishy to do this for very long, even WITH capacitance.

 

Long Range:

Get a good crit weapon, pop a few ES shields and you're good to go here! Too bad Volt doesn't have anything to stop enemies from getting close aside from his lackluster ultimate and a little interrupt.

 

Execution:

Volt has no tools that help him perform finishers. This is one area he at least doesn't try for unless you account for the attack speed boost he gets to finishers, which… isn't significant enough to count by itself. He shouldn't have to rely on Inaros and Valkyr to perform finishers.

 

Stealth:

Build maximum strength, and pour everything else into mobility mods, and you have a chance to move fast enough to not get detected by enemies. Before Volt's mobility nerf, this was actually a rather viable rush build.

 

Distraction:

He's not a tank and he's barely mobile enough to dodge anything at close range even WITH speed. He's not a distraction.

 

 

There. That should suffice for "Why Volt sucks at everything."

Your post EPITOMIZES why I've been advocating for his passive to be:

"While speed (2) is active, Volt's passive is the ability to fast-cast his 1,3,4 on the move/run with no stopping or slow-down."

 

You would still need to time it up as I'm not advocating insta-casting.

But look at how it suddenly addresses the weaknesses you mention and ties Volt's kit together.

He goes from compromised to synergized; from "stop-go-stop...go?" to Strafing Nightmare and carpet-bombing extraordinaire...lightning-style.

 

[SylvenStar]

@Brasten I'm not going to argue with you. Just about everything you say is true, but consider this: All of these habits you talk about using? These builds you talk about? Only high tier, veteran, experts at warframe can do all of that as instinctual habits. Requiring all of that on a starter frame of all frames is ludicrous. I don't have Shocking Speed, I don't have primed flow, Volt Prime, nor have I completed the Zenurik Energy Regen skill. I don't have the ability to build volt to drop a bunch of shields or use Riot Shield in the ways you're suggesting. The closest I've gotten is a duration+efficiency build, which came at the cost of being able to feel like Speed was taking me places. Admittedly, it did make it feel more viable and worth it to drop ES to hold a point once in a while, but it was just... boring. I still didn't have the energy to drop a bunch of shields whenever I liked, do I had to hold onto the shields I spawned for as long as I could. I'm also aware that bullet jump doesn't carry sprint momentum, that's why I rarely ever do it as the volt.
There's another problem that you pointed out to me: Volt is extremely reliant on his weapons. Not in the sense that he needs to have good weapons, he needs to have very specific weapons. He needs to have a melee weapon that won't trap him in an animation at the wrong time, one that is DPS focused, a primary that is capable of BOTH high crit chance and status chance and does not detonate, like the Lanka (Regretably, something I got rid of before the sniper update and have been struggling to rebuild ever since), and a pistol that has at least high crit chance.
I understand that different frames are better matched with certain kinds of weapons. I'm VERY aware of that. However, being locked into a certain set just to be viable is annoying, especially when it means I can't pair it with some of the more fun weapons, like the Glaive, the Opticor, the Angstrum, the Torid, and so on.

I guess you could say that my main complaint about the Volt is that he simply CAN'T be played with the playstyle that I used to use him with. It is selfish of me in that respect, but can you seriously judge me that harshly for seeing my former favorite frame have his potential playstyles get limited to ones that I don't enjoy?

Now here's a little tidbit that might throw you for a loop: I would be overjoyed if Discharge's damage was removed altogether and Capacitance was adjusted to power duration and number of enemies affected to compensate. I love the CC effect of Discharge when it works.
Another thing: I've never been truly against the no-air-cast or immobile cast of Discharge. It's just that Volt doesn't have the tankiness to sit there, thus making the slide-cast MANDATORY.

In summary of what I'm understanding so far at this point: Volt is an awkward case where advanced mechanics and mechanic exploits make him extremely powerful, more so than other frames in the right situations, but without them he isn't that useful. Personally, I find that unacceptable, but then again, I'm not a super expert that takes advantage of every little gimmick in the game and has access to maxed out primed mods, corrupted mods, weapons and frames, I'm just a casual player of three years here.

Sorry if I seemed snarky with any of this, I'm just getting really annoyed with people around the forums misinterpreting what I'm saying, taking me to be hostile, or bluntly telling me to "Shut up and do something that's actually useful."

Edited July 26, 2016 by SylvenStar

[SylvenStar]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Your post EPITOMIZES why I've been advocating for his passive to be:

"While speed (2) is active, Volt's passive is the ability to fast-cast his 1,3,4 on the move/run with no stopping or slow-down."

 

You would still need to time it up as I'm not advocating insta-casting.

But look at how it suddenly addresses the weaknesses you mention and ties Volt's kit together.

He goes from compromised to synergized; from "stop-go-stop...go?" to Strafing Nightmare and carpet-bombing extraordinaire...lightning-style.

 

I would be happy with this, it just isn't quite enough for me personally.

[Brasten]

On 7/24/2016 at 0:11 AM, SylvenStar said:

Shocking speed has similar damage values.

 

3 hours ago, SylvenStar said:

I don't have Shocking Speed

Going purely on what the Wikia is telling you then for damage values? Shocking Speed is a CC tool anyways at later levels, more useful for the Shock stun than its damage output.

Let's stop for a moment and consider the different Stages of Play with Volt.

Which would be Early (not yet accessing Phobos and the Void), Mid (Phobos and Jupiter access, building Warframes), Late (full solar system access), End (working on daily sorties, raids, and areas where enemy scaling starts to bread down).

Most of you're comments about Discharge issues were aimed at End game content, working against enemies ranging from levels 70+ (Sorties, Trials/Raids, and long duration Endless). If you are playing End game where enemy scaling starts to break down, without at least something like the Zenurik Focus school and various Mods (Corrupted, Drift, Nightmare*, Syndicate, Auras, note: didn't mention Prime), then you can't expect reasonable performance. If you're playing at those levels and not familiar with the various little tricks, then it's time to start upping your knowledge of the game systems.

*Yes, I am aware Nightmare mission are currently not spawning on the new Star Chart. This is something DE needs to fix.

Early game Volt is a power killer. Shock will carry a new player up to and likely through Mars. Alloy Armor resistance to Electricity damage is virtually non-existent making one of the most universally apply damage types. Electric Shield use becomes important for deploying cover where none exits, and is fundamental Volt skill for a player to develop, getting a sense where and when to drop one. At this stage players should be looking to build out the core Power mods, Continuity, Intensify, Stretch, Streamline. I ignore Flow at this point because Efficiency is more important that total banked power, outside various select Late and End game builds, and Volt is actually not one of those builds. If a player can get their hands on an Energy Siphon aura mod, they'll be in the best position for Power Spam through the Late game. If not then its going to be down Weapons (Guns and Melee) which is Volt's bread and butter anyways. His tag line as "an alternative to gun-play" has been false since Close Beta, and DE refuses to change it.

Early game enemies will tend to cap out at level 20. Progress will be up to and working on the Phobos Junction.

Mid game is where the need for Energy Siphon starts to become more noticeable as a critical mod for any power spammy Warframe, which includes Volt. This is also where players should really begin hunting for specialty mods. Building Derelict and Dragon Keys for Corrupted Mods, Fleeting Expertise topping the list. Constitution is the Nightmare mod to look for which is going to help offset Fleeting Expertise. Both Nightmare missions and the Derelict will likely be a challenge as enemies and conditions start hitting level 35 (but still well under Armor scaling issues). Joining Red Veil or Arbiters of Hexis syndicates for Volt Syndicate mods. A strong argument can be made for Red Veil and the Rakta Ballistica (Ceros is a bit to high Mastery Rank for Mid game), which procs energy restoration from Blight, especially if you are still having a hard time getting a hold of Energy Siphon.

In terms of play and techniques, a player should be familiar with Advancement Movement by this point. There is a playable tutorial for it in the Codex even. They should at least being to have a passing idea about combining maneuvers, such as casting while sliding. If a player has Energy Siphon they can start being a bit more free in how the throw out Shocks and drop extra Electric shields. Discharge remains a room clearing power, not really a CC tool. Guns and melee weapons remain important parts of Volts kit. While Shock remains strong, its starting to drop off in damage and most kills are coming from Weapons or Discharge. 

Mid game enemies tend to cap at level 30. Derelict and Nightmare missions are tastes of Late and End game conditions. Progression gets to the Neptune Junction and Second Dream Quest.

Getting super detailed, the ideal combo at this point is Energy Siphon, Streamline at Rank 4, Fleeting Expertise at Rank 4 (not max 5). Efficiency caps at 175% and unless you're using Blind Rage, there is very little reason to take Fleeting Expertise above Rank 4 and 50%, which combines with the +25% of Streamline. Once the update with Corrupted mods rolled out, this was my default configuration for Volt (not Primed at the time) and it held into the Late game easily. You should be noticing that this is an Efficiency Volt aiming or 130% Strength, 145% Range, 175% Efficiency, and Duration getting dumped on. Which should be fine because spamming Speed renewals should come out mathematically less costly. Discharge is mostly killing everything still anyways at Enemy Level 30, so the hard CC duration isn't critical. If you can do Constitution + Continuity (not Primed) that mostly takes care of the Fleeting Expertise penatly and should leave a total of 108% Duration.

Build: Fleeting Expertise (4), Streamline (4), Intensify (5), Stretch (5), Constitution (3), Continuity (5), Redirection, Capacitance. Energy Siphon if you can get it. no point in an Exilus slot yet.

Late game, if a player doesn't have Energy Siphon by this point they really need to be focusing on the Zenurik and Energy Overflow. If they do have Energy Siphon the need is less critical but still rather important as you move toward End game. We start picking up Drift Mods, Power Drift or Cunning Drift which will go into the Exlius slot. Power Drift would be the likely choice as that bumps your Power Strength up (boost Speed and Discharge damage Cap). Now is also the time to be keeping an eye on Baro Ki'Teer to return from the Void with Prime Continuity (shove Primed Flow out an air lock, you don't need it on an efficiency Volt with energy regen).

On play techniques players should be working toward mastering more complex combine maneuvers. Certainly getting the Drift mods need them. Bullet Jumping to get height for ground pounds with melee weapons. Wall Latched combat and casting. Transition in movement types for better  level/tile traversal. As a player builds up Energy Overflow they can start to use Electric Shield in Riot mode for some serious face taking, which is appropriate due to the enemy level finally getting into a serious zone where immunity from the AoE damage throwers picks up in importance. The player also has energy to spend on really covering vital areas with Electric Shield and keeping Speed cycled as it comes off duration. Discharge starts feeling more and more like a CC tool, especially against Grineer but also Infested. Guns and melee become even more critical as Discharge's damage starts to fall off on enemy Armor. Weapons are just as important to a good Volt now as they were in the Early game.

Enemy levels should be reaching 40 to 45, and the Armor scaling starts to get noticeable and Electricity damage starts to fall off on Alloy enemies. However Discharge is still going to be wreaking most things, and the bump to 145% power strength will help offset that.

By this point in clearing out the Star Chart, and Mastering weapons, the player should be hitting Mastery Ranks 8 to 12 (shooting for 12 for current top end lock on syndicate weapons).

Build: Fleeting Expertise (4), Streamline (4), Intensify (5), Stretch (5), Constitution (3), Continuity (5), Redirection, Capacitance, Power Drift. 145% Strength, 145% Range, 175% Efficiency, 108% Duration. Zenurik Focus.

End game is where players start going nuts. This is Sorties and Raid/Trails. Enemies leveling past 70-80 and into the 100s. Armor breaks. Heath values are crazy. Bring your A game, or find a backpack to hop into and get carried, because this is the end of the line and any semblance of "balanced" play. Achievable by Mastery Rank 12 or sooner, if RNG on the mod hunting is with you or you can make some good inter-player trades.

By End game a player really should have hunted down the various mods they need to stay just as broken as enemy scaling. Primed Mods, Forma'ed everything, Corrupted Mods in counter balances or just pure maximization. Although there is nothing wrong with the Late game build from above. In point of fact, its actually more Efficient energy wise then mine. Base Discharge lasts 12 seconds (~13 on build), while I'm pulling ~22 seconds. Two casts from Efficient Volt is double my time from 50 energy vs my 70. You just have be on top of reapplying Discharge! 

Efficiency build remains totally viable without Prime Continuity, but if you can get it when it comes up, so much the better.

End Game Spam Volt Build: Fleeting Expertise (4), Streamline (4), Intensify (5), Stretch (5), Constitution (3), Primed Continuity (10), Redirection, Capacitance, Power Drift. 145% Strength, 145% Range, 175% Efficiency, 133% Duration. Zenurik Focus. Needs about 4 Forma applied.

From Early Game to End, Efficiency Volt remains solid. It is a starter frame that can go the distance (and IMO the best choice of starter). A Volt player should grow into and be comfortable with all the various techniques for moving around the battlefield and applying his skills where they will be the best Force Multipliers, like any good tactician. Things they will have learned (as I and others did) progressing through the Star Chart. Knowing when to Hit, when to Run, to Stand, to Shoot, to Melee, to Power Spam. And it is all thanks to the rework of Overload into Discharge. Without that, Volt wouldn't be end game viable because he'd have no real CC, and even the damage boost from multiple ESs would get out stripped by Armor and Health scaling.

====

My build is different because I have Prime Continuity and Volt Prime (with its really buffed stats) to play with, and wanted room for Vitality as I hate getting downed to level 100 bleed procs and cheap Toxin from Muralist Ospreys. Very much a personal choice. Also because I have a full force Zenurik Energy Overflow, I'm less worried about Efficiency after 3 minutes of play. So I can be flamboyant in my build. I'm actually running 155% Strength because I'm that old of a player and have an Arcane Storm helmet. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Brasten

[RealPandemonium]

20 hours ago, SylvenStar said:

Capacitance is the only thing that makes Discharge useful. There's a little detail you might be missing, not sure if ya are, but just in case, that damage cap is on total damage output. Other abilities have a per-enemy damage basis hitting the thousands, such as World on fire dishing out several ticks of over 500 damage to all enemies within range. The 5,000 base damage cap isn't that a single enemy will take 5,000 damage, it's that the combined damage of all affected enemies can max out at 5,000 damage. It's divided amongst the affected enemies, meaning if you ult in a typical fashion where more than 10 enemies are being hit, each enemy will take 500 damage or less. This is why players don't even see the DoT effect even start against high level corpus. So many enemies take that first tick of damage so that the cap is reached instantaneously. If the damage cap were, say, 3,000 damage, but it was restricted to that enemy, I would be far happier. It would make sense.

It's not, though.  Use Discharge on 1 enemy, then use it on 10 enemies of the same type and level.  It will take the same number of Discharges to kill them, more or less.  The details can get a little messy (such as how may enemies there are per cluster, and do you have enough duration for lone enemies to reach the damage cap,) but overall it will deal the full damage to clusters of more than one enemy (and to lone enemies if you have duration) and certainly does way more damage than it did before.  

[SylvenStar]

Ignoring my points again. Even the League forums were more welcoming to me. I should've known better than to try my luck and help push to see things happen. On that note, I leave the discussion.

Edited July 26, 2016 by SylvenStar

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Brasten... I would assume everyone hates getting downed by level one hundred bleed procs...I run vitality too....

I think DE pictures us all working closely together, supporting each other buddy buddy, and building our frames with mods for those purposes. Screw solo players with bad Wi-Fi. And because we can be buddy buddy, volt can suffer in some survivability stats because he offers cc and a mobile sheild. Cool story.

If I had know that arcane helmets were important and would go away, even though at the time everyone was telling my noobity self they didn't add much to the game, I would have gotten one instead of doing other things that seemed more important.

If after the second dream if I had known I would need extra energy regeneration to play volt, i would have picked it, but I viewed health regenration as more important so I could compete with life strikers as I didn't have the mod at the time...and i am only about 1/8 done leveling viazarin because I'm not about that life and can't be bothered to care about it with the abysmal gains...so that's on me.

If I had known....

Glad I have primed continuity and flow....

But all of these things that make volt awesome and allow for flamboyant builds, in their abscense leave a much more hollow feeling experience (so the argument goes)

I will challenge myself to play with nothing that you can't get at any time, regardless of wether or not you have a million credits and play to trade for those things you may not even know exist. But things can be bought...

What new overpowered extra stat changing mods and equipement is DE going to realease to help compensate for the things the "got here after lock" players don't have and won't be able to get? How long are the LOR arcane going to be in game?

Because I have viazarin, my build is rage, equilibrium, vitality, primed continuity, primed flow, armored agility, rush, shocking speed. And rejeuvanation sometimes, sometimes the melee aura mod I can't remember.

Screw discharge

Screw riot sheild

Screw working with a team and making them suffer my terrible connection speeds...

I still run speed volt with shock interruption and will until he gets a better rework that doesn't rely on specific things.

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
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