The Problem is Player Expectation

[notlamprey]

Just now, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Are you arguing they should stop developing the game...? I don't understand your point in this post.

I disagree with all three examples you provided in the OP, though. Whether or not WF is a horde  game, cheese is not rewarding or satisfying. When a game reaches that point, it becomes a clicker - you're just tapping buttons to watch the numbers go up. There's no joy in it. Plus, I dislike when whether I die comes down to a crapshoot. I would prefer DE continue with its present course, and remove cheese from the game on both player and enemy sides... and then, ideally, remove nullifiers. Or at least tone their spawns way down, and have them merely hamper abilities' effects instead of canceling them outright. Because the entire purpose of nullifiers is to counter cheese.

DE has finally started a major overhaul, the end goal of which is balance. And boy is it long overdue. Waiting this long to start means that the process is going to be very painful, both for us and DE. They've said repeatedly that inflated mod numbers make the game difficult to balance, because there are too many unnecessarily high values to account for anytime they introduce a new mod, weapon or frame. It also makes enemy balancing very difficult. These nerfs are only the first step. Next is Damage 3.0, and then Mods 3.0 (possibly in the opposite order, but I hope not). The end result will be a much more concentrated game that is easier to develop. Which means more content faster, and probably of higher quality too.

I strongly suspect these changes are in response to issues revealed by attempts to balance nodes on the new star chart, which allegedly has adjustable difficulty tiers.

I think the point was that calling Warframe "still in beta" is a misrepresentation, largely because of what many consumers think when they hear "beta."

The game industry as a whole still serves us plenty of entirely free "beta" experiences with no cash shops of any kind to be found in them, and this was in fact the standard model of "beta" from time immemorial until very recently.

DE needs to recognize that, and consider re-framing (oh god, puns) this game as "In Active Development" instead.

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Are you arguing they should stop developing the game...? I don't understand your point in this post.

I disagree with all three examples you provided in the OP, though. Whether or not WF is a horde  game, cheese is not rewarding or satisfying. When a game reaches that point, it becomes a clicker - you're just tapping buttons to watch the numbers go up. There's no joy in it. Plus, I dislike when whether I die comes down to a crapshoot. I would prefer DE continue with its present course, and remove cheese from the game on both player and enemy sides... and then, ideally, remove nullifiers. Or at least tone their spawns way down, and have them merely hamper abilities' effects instead of canceling them outright. Because the entire purpose of nullifiers is to counter cheese.

DE has finally started a major overhaul, the end goal of which is balance. And boy is it long overdue. Waiting this long to start means that the process is going to be very painful, both for us and DE. They've said repeatedly that inflated mod numbers make the game difficult to balance, because there are too many unnecessarily high values to account for anytime they introduce a new mod, weapon or frame. It also makes enemy balancing very difficult. These nerfs are only the first step. Next is Damage 3.0, and then Mods 3.0 (possibly in the opposite order, but I hope not). The end result will be a much more concentrated game that is easier to develop. Which means more content faster, and probably of higher quality too.

I strongly suspect these changes are in response to issues revealed by attempts to balance nodes on the new star chart, which allegedly has adjustable difficulty tiers.

Well said.

I don't think they should ever stop development. But I do think you need to be careful throwing around the word Beta these days. That can nab bad press fast this far into a games life.

I agree numbers are too high. I would love to see a "stat squish" close the gap between high and low levels. For all it got wrong, Destiny handles this far better, with the narrower gap meaning you are often powerful enough, but never grossly overpowered.

Warframe needs thus. And it needs it legit. Without constantly robbing us of control. Without us constantly robbing one another of game play.

 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

1 hour ago, Stratego89 said:

Oh- and people CHOOSE to spend their money on a BETA game that is IN DEVELOPMENT with a EULA THAT SAYS ANYTHING CAN AND WILL CHANGE AT ANY TIME. If they don't like how the game changes- well SUCKS for them but that's not DE's fault.

if you sell stuff in the game for real money, it's not a beta game, no matter what the dev say. 

that's an old argument that's dead and gone... catch up please 

[Stratego89]

58 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

Punctuation is a thing... makes everything - COMPREHENSIBLE.

So I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here. You really need to take a step outside and breathe before posting more. I looked at some of your other posts in this thread and you're making a complete arse of yourself acting like a jerk to everyone that comments pretty much. I did used punctuation. Perfect punctuation in fact. When I try to get a point across on forums or in anything that's not a casual IRC or something- I try to do my best to speak properly as to convey my point. You couldn't come up with a proper counter argument so you devolved into trying to call me out for doing something wrong instead- even when I hadn't. Get over yourself mate. Step back, look at things objectively- and most importantly just calm down.

[Stratego89]

7 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

if you sell stuff in the game for real money, it's not a beta game, no matter what the dev say. 

that's an old argument that's dead and gone... catch up please 

Allow me to present to you TWO definitions of "beta":

"A beta version of a program, game etc... is an unfinished version released to either the public a select few or whoever signs up to beta test it for bugs or glitches."

"a version of a product (such as a computer program) that is almost finished and that is used for testing."

Now I want you to tell me how Warframe doesn't fit into these. Open to public... we test bugs and glitches every update. Unfinished product- constantly having new content added into the game or HEAVILY revised mechanically. Almost finished... used for testing.

Sounds about right to me, m8.

 

You seem to have more of an issue with the idea that "beta" is used to represent the type of game warframe is simply because there's no more accurate or existing term to represent this type of game's model than you do with warframe itself. Salty player is salty about losing their cheese and is giving the whine to go with it. Big surprise.

[magusat999]

3 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

So I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here. You really need to take a step outside and breathe before posting more. I looked at some of your other posts in this thread and you're making a complete arse of yourself acting like a jerk to everyone that comments pretty much. I did used punctuation. Perfect punctuation in fact. When I try to get a point across on forums or in anything that's not a casual IRC or something- I try to do my best to speak properly as to convey my point. You couldn't come up with a proper counter argument so you devolved into trying to call me out for doing something wrong instead- even when I hadn't. Get over yourself mate. Step back, look at things objectively- and most importantly just calm down.

You did not use punctuation in the quote I got from you. And stop stalking me... following me around like a lost child. Because you don't agree with my points of view doesn't make me an "arse" - it just makes you not agree with me, stop being silly. Don't get upset because I pointed out your lack of punctuation -I was only trying to understand you which was impossible with that scatter-brained mess.You say i am an "ars"? that's funny because you are the one stooping to personal insults - sounds pretty "arsey" to me....

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

6 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Well said.

I don't think they should ever stop development. But I do think you need to be careful throwing around the word Beta these days. That can nab bad press fast this far into a games life.

I agree numbers are too high. I would love to see a "stat squish" close the gap between high and low levels. For all it got wrong, Destiny handles this far better, with the narrower gap meaning you are often powerful enough, but never grossly overpowered.

Warframe needs thus. And it needs it legit. Without constantly robbing us of control. Without us constantly robbing one another of game play.

Hm, fortunately it's rare that I see someone use "it's in beta" to dismiss criticism. It's a lazy argument.

I reacted negatively toward your OP because you seem to want them to clearly define what genre WF is aiming for. But I don't want them to aim for a genre at all; it's often used as a substitute or fallback for design philosophy. WF doesn't really need that, I don't think. It's carved out a niche, there's nothing else quite like it. Maybe that's why I like it so much: it's not trying to be something else.

The stat squish is definitely incoming. One idea DE themselves have pitched is pure post-damage mods (like Serration) and survivability mods (like Vitality) being partially absorbed into the base stats of frames and weapons, and then nerfing the mods themselves to hell. This seems like the philosophically ideal way to go, but with hundreds of weapons and 30 frames, and Primes needing their own separate attention, that seems... unrealistic. Just getting an initial pass out the door would take a very, very long time, and that pass would inevitably be as balanced as me attempting drunk tightrope.

Another possibility is fully absorbing post-damage and survivability mods, and removing the mods from the game altogether with a core refund. This would be a win for us, actually, because we'd gain a mod slot on every weapon and frame (assuming you were using Redirection/Vitality). I'm very curious how they intend to handle it.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

8 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Allow me to present to you TWO definitions of "beta":

"A beta version of a program, game etc... is an unfinished version released to either the public a select few or whoever signs up to beta test it for bugs or glitches."

"a version of a product (such as a computer program) that is almost finished and that is used for testing."

It's a well known dynamic for games to be in perpetual beta, to sell DLC and memberships for a month, a year, three years, then fold, never coming out of beta.  generally these games are erratic in their development, and they are subject to game dev selling powerful weapons and characters, milking some cash from them, then nerfing them, rinse and repeat. 

Sound familiar?

most experienced gamers define a game as coming OUT of beta when the game dev start selling stuff to the public.   If you sell stuff for real money, you're not in beta anymore. 

Sounds fair to me, M8. 

[-Temp0-]

1 hour ago, Naftal said:

Grappling hooks and knockdowns are not a gear check but player skill check.

There's no lack of a skill involved in not being able to do sht about a shield lancer while you need to stay on the pad like a solid rock while only being able to move one step to the right and one to the left. While also forced to block with your melee, unable to use other weapons and even if you were able, the shield will prevent 90% of the weapons from killing that lancer in time. Meanwhile, protective things like shade using which one should've been able to avoid that works like a crap they are. And then someone go again and talk about "skill" while even the devs of this game aren't skilled enough to make a couple of things right to begin with so all the hate could've been avoided.

Those knocdowns and other dirty tactics are nothing in the star chat missions or even the void, but once you get out of taht tiny sand box it becomes a problem. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Whether or not DE says WF is in beta, it doesn't matter. It follows the same pattern as any MMO. Major, systemic changes occur every so often. Nerfs are applied to balance content, however successful.

By the reasoning of those who say "WF is in beta", Diablo III was in beta for a year after release. That game is barely recognizable. WoW has been around for ten @(*()$ years. Go back to the vanilla areas and compare to the modern stuff. I've never even play WoW and the difference is staggering to me.

But even ignoring the arguments against it being in beta, the argument itself is pointless. DE treats WF with care, despite what some may think. It's their lovechild, they don't want to break it. The game's incredibly meager initial budget (i.e. out-of-pocket) means development has been far, far more iterative than most games. That's really where the problems come from. But WF is a real boy now, and it needs to deal with some of its crippling systemic problems.

What does it being in beta or not have to do with any of that? Can we please, for the love of god, stop having this stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid conversation, and move onto something constructive. You know, like the other conversation this thread was meant to start.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

24 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

There's no lack of a skill involved in not being able to do sht with a shield lancer while you're need to stay on the pad like a solid rock while only being able to move one step to the right and one to the left. While also forced to block with your melee, unable to use other weapons and even if you were able, the shield will prevent 90% of the weapons from killing that lancer in time. Meanwhile, protective things like shade taht should've been able to avoid that works like a crap they are. And then someone go again and talk about "skill" while even the devs of this game aren't skilled enough to make a couple of things right to begin with so all the hate could've been avoided.

Those knocdowns and other dirty tactics are nothing in the star chat missions or even the void, but once you get out of taht tiny sand box it becomes a problem. 

I would argue it becomes a problem before it results in your unavoidable death. The ability to succeed based on personal ability is important, yeah... But satisfying moment-to-moment gameplay is equally important.

I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I want to feel threatened. But I also want to feel that if I am personally good enough at the game, and my group works well together (without cheese), that we can avoid things like knockdown. Currently, avoiding knockdown is state-dependent, unless you equip mods to mitigate it without input. I strongly dislike this. I wish you could quick-block... or at least that switching to melee was instant, and could queue a block even while switching.

Have you played Kingdom Hearts? (Weird example yeah but bear with me.) When you block, you can tell reliably where the actual blocking frames are in that animation. If an attack is successfully blocked, your facing instantly shifts to the direction of the attack, the animation skips ahead to reflect that, and your weapon rebounds. This provides very clear feedback. Guarding quickly becomes intuitive. Steve used to lament WF's animation transitions prior to U17. But some of those issues still linger. Guarding and parrying as a mechanic hasn't been seriously looked at since Melee 2.0. It needs a cleanup.

But you know what I really want? A total overhaul of every pre-U17 generic animation, for both Tenno and enemies. I've outlined in other threads how many problems in WF actually stem from extremely poor telegraphing. Most enemy telegraphs were designed under the assumption you can actually see the enemy and respond quickly. Old grunt enemies need replacements for abilities that no longer make sense, and cleaner more balanced rules for BS abilities, too. Looking at you, Scorpions and Ancients.

Also, if I may suggest removing the groundpound ability from Bombards? I feel like many enemies weren't designed with an intended way to reduce their threat. Getting in close would be a very effective tactic (their rockets' tracking tanks at close range). Also, please for Christ's sake update knockdown abilities so that ragdolling or interrupting an enemy actually interrupts the knockdown.

Edited May 29, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[Vox_Preliator]

I want DE to put their foot down, and say "We want X to be endgame, Y to be the cap of player power, Z to be as far as we realistically intend anyone to go, etc." and spend time improving what's there, further expanding content horizontally in scale rather than vertically, if that makes any sense.

I can't think of a case where the developers being firm with this has gone really badly, and can think of a number of cases where the develops constantly relenting and making everything stronger and stronger and constantly escalating made the game far, far worse over time.

[Stratego89]

47 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

You did not use punctuation in the quote I got from you. And stop stalking me... following me around like a lost child. Because you don't agree with my points of view doesn't make me an "arse" - it just makes you not agree with me, stop being silly. Don't get upset because I pointed out your lack of punctuation -I was only trying to understand you which was impossible with that scatter-brained mess.You say i am an "ars"? that's funny because you are the one stooping to personal insults - sounds pretty "arsey" to me....

So firstly- PRETTY SURE all those commas, periods, spaces, sentence and paragraph structuring I used qualifies as "punctuation". Maybe read a dictionary or go back to school.

Secondly, STALKING you? LMFAO. Mate- YOU are the one that quoted me on SEVERAL topics. If anyone's stalking someone it's you- and I never once made that assumption. You're the initiator I've done nothing.

You couldn't understand me not because what I posted was a "scatter-brained mess" but because you chose not to even read it in the first place. I'm done with you. You're absolutely, hilariously sad right now. Ignore my post, insult me, accuse me of stalking you, insult me FURTHER and continue making claims of something that is completely untrue. Get out mate.

[Soulden]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

DE is at fault in large part .

Because you can't see the aura for the hordes around you.

You can't tell it, from the thousands visual effects clogging your screen. 

And you can't tell the enemy projectingsaid aura from the versions that aren't.

Weird, I only got 1 eye and can see it.

More feedback needed.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I would argue it becomes a problem before it results in your unavoidable death. The ability to succeed based on personal ability is important, yeah... But satisfying moment-to-moment gameplay is equally important.

I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I want to feel threatened. But I also want to feel that if I am personally good enough at the game, and my group works well together (without cheese), that we can avoid things like knockdown. Currently, avoiding knockdown is state-dependent, unless you equip mods to mitigate it without input. I strongly dislike this. I wish you could quick-block... or at least that switching to melee was instant, and could queue a block even while switching.

Have you played Kingdom Hearts? (Weird example yeah but bear with me.) When you block, you can tell reliably where the actual blocking frames are in that animation. If an attack is successfully blocked, your facing instantly shifts to the direction of the attack, the animation skips ahead to reflect that, and your weapon rebounds. This provides very clear feedback. Guarding quickly becomes intuitive. Steve used to lament WF's animation transitions prior to U17. But some of those issues still linger. Guarding and parrying as a mechanic hasn't been seriously looked at since Melee 2.0. It needs a cleanup.

But you know what I really want? A total overhaul of every pre-U17 generic animation, for both Tenno and enemies. I've outlined in other threads how many problems in WF actually stem from extremely poor telegraphing. Most enemy telegraphs were designed under the assumption you can actually see the enemy and respond quickly. Old grunt enemies need replacements for abilities that no longer make sense, and cleaner more balanced rules for BS abilities, too. Looking at you, Scorpions and Ancients.

Also, if I may suggest removing the groundpound ability from Bombards? I feel like many enemies weren't designed with an intended way to reduce their threat. Getting in close would be a very effective tactic (their rockets' tracking tanks at close range). Also, please for Christ's sake update knockdown abilities so that ragdolling or interrupting an enemy actually interrupts the knockdown.

Very well put. This needs to happen. Badly. 

Also, quick block...yes, please.

[BCAW]

3 hours ago, Stratego89 said:

Oh good... another one of these people. If you actually kept up with what DE is doing you'd know they've said that they're going to be altering Enemy scaling and cheese tactics since we're losing our cheese tactics to deal with those cheese tactics.

But fun fact- enemies don't cheese outside of 360 MLG noscope Ballista without any telegraph and Denial bursa knockdown spam that lasts for 5 seconds and gets you killed 100% of the time it hits. Everything else is fair. We're not meant to go past level 150 enemies and easily survive like we can now. We're DEFINITELY not meant to EVER be able to reach level 5000 enemies like some people do. We're meant to DIE. That's the POINT of scaling. It's not CHEESE. It's POWER SCALING. KILLING us is the point. GET OVER IT.

 

EDIT: Oh- and people CHOOSE to spend their money on a BETA game that is IN DEVELOPMENT with a EULA THAT SAYS ANYTHING CAN AND WILL CHANGE AT ANY TIME. If they don't like how the game changes- well SUCKS for them but that's not DE's fault.

If I must trudge through another 20 minutes of endless hell to get to another rotation c in the void with a 2% chance of getting what I want, I will do my damned best to do so, and use whatever method I need, cheese or not. Void keys are currencies. I choose how much profit I want to extract from spending the currency. And I will use whatever method necessary to maximize my profit. And if DE really doesn't want us to get that far and spend more void keys, just auto extract us at 20 minutes. I would be more happy with that than dealing with enemy scaling. 

[gluih]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The Perpetual Beta excuse is getting old.

Your games going on its third or fourth YEAR and has a cash shop.

It's not in Beta any more. Sorry, not letting that old "get out of criticism free" card slide. Firefall tried to hide behind that; it's dead now.

Nobody says the game can't be criticised. In fact the devs want to hear what the players don't like about it, so they can change that.

When you read that you know that the game is going to change.

And when it comes to your expectations:

The majority of the game is and always will be about killing a large number of enemies as quickly as possible to get a reward. It looks like DE also wants to give players room to test their gear and skill. Raids, sorties and other high level activity is where this is mainly happening(along with some smaller challenges you may encounter in the lower levels so things don't get too boring).

[Stratego89]

10 minutes ago, BCAW said:

And if DE really doesn't want us to get that far and spend more void keys, just auto extract us at 20 minutes. I would be more happy with that than dealing with enemy scaling. 

You have every right to do so as much as you can with what DE gives you.

But if DE says they don't like how far we can go well tough **** for you guys you have to deal with it. The point of enemy scaling is to murder us- the scaling isn't doing it's job because too many abilities and too much gear exists that can circumvent it, so they're dealing with that. Additionally they are going to deal with enemy scaling so that it operates better as a whole to both solve this problem completely- because they can't JUST nerf stuff and get a perfect result- and is also more fun as a whole for the game.

[BCAW]

1 minute ago, Stratego89 said:

You have every right to do so as much as you can with what DE gives you.

But if DE says they don't like how far we can go well tough **** for you guys you have to deal with it. The point of enemy scaling is to murder us- the scaling isn't doing it's job because too many abilities and too much gear exists that can circumvent it, so they're dealing with that. Additionally they are going to deal with enemy scaling so that it operates better as a whole to both solve this problem completely- because they can't JUST nerf stuff and get a perfect result- and is also more fun as a whole for the game.

DE is god over game design, but DE isn't god over the players. Sure, they can design enemies that are meant to flay us alive and drag us around by our entrails and mop the floor with blood from our still beating hearts, but that doesn't mean we should be expected just to bend over and die like pathetic worms. DE needs to take that into consideration when designing this game. "Enemies are designed to murder us" is not reason for us to not even try, or figure out optimal strategies to push past the limits. Hard-extracting is a much better option for limiting playtime.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 hours ago, Stratego89 said:

Oh good... another one of these people. If you actually kept up with what DE is doing you'd know they've said that they're going to be altering Enemy scaling and cheese tactics since we're losing our cheese tactics to deal with those cheese tactics.

But fun fact- enemies don't cheese outside of 360 MLG noscope Ballista without any telegraph and Denial bursa knockdown spam that lasts for 5 seconds and gets you killed 100% of the time it hits. Everything else is fair. We're not meant to go past level 150 enemies and easily survive like we can now. We're DEFINITELY not meant to EVER be able to reach level 5000 enemies like some people do. We're meant to DIE. That's the POINT of scaling. It's not CHEESE. It's POWER SCALING. KILLING us is the point. GET OVER IT.

 

EDIT: Oh- and people CHOOSE to spend their money on a BETA game that is IN DEVELOPMENT with a EULA THAT SAYS ANYTHING CAN AND WILL CHANGE AT ANY TIME. If they don't like how the game changes- well SUCKS for them but that's not DE's fault.

wow... and I thought Valkyr was angry.... inb4 lock as emotions are clearly running high.

and OP, you used the word "skill" like 5 times in every sentence, but would you care to actually define what true skill is? regarding the ARPG/Skill-based-shooter thing, I'm not even sure DE know themselves, so how can we ever hope to know?

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

wow... and I thought Valkyr was angry.... inb4 lock as emotions are clearly running high.

and OP, you used the word "skill" like 5 times in every sentence, but would you care to actually define what true skill is? regarding the ARPG/Skill-based-shooter thing, I'm not even sure DE know themselves, so how can we ever hope to know?

He's elaborated on his main points over the course of the thread, but unfortunately some people are focusing on personal quarrels.

I get that tensions are high due to 18.13. People are being more dramatic overall. The doomsaying continues, but seems to be dying down, thank Christ. Can't imagine the anxiety that comes from making these changes, knowing how a subset of the player base will react.

At least a lot of really good feedback has surfaced amidst the outcry.

[Stratego89]

11 minutes ago, BCAW said:

DE is god over game design, but DE isn't god over the players. Sure, they can design enemies that are meant to flay us alive and drag us around by our entrails and mop the floor with blood from our still beating hearts, but that doesn't mean we should be expected just to bend over and die like pathetic worms. DE needs to take that into consideration when designing this game. "Enemies are designed to murder us" is not reason for us to not even try, or figure out optimal strategies to push past the limits. Hard-extracting is a much better option for limiting playtime.

You're not expected to do that. You're expected to either be ok with it or make the decision that you're not voice CONSTRUCTIVE opinions as to why, or just leave.

They're not trying to limit playtime. They're trying to limit cheese. They're trying to limit people's ability to BEAT missions without even taking part in them- interacting with them. People play the game without PLAYING the game. Without challenge. Without fun. THAT is what they're trying to change. To do that they're fixing cheese tactics, overpowered abilities in general, and enemy scaling so that it will do it's job RIGHT. They're trying to limit people blowing through content without actually using it and in turn becoming bored of the game due to their own toxic mentality of "gotta get that high MR mmmbaby imma be an elite and make it MLG!". They're trying to save their game because they finally realized if they don't act that's what's going to happen. I don't understand why they waited so long but at least they finally accepted they either had to cut off the gang green limb or die.

[Stratego89]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

wow... and I thought Valkyr was angry.... inb4 lock as emotions are clearly running high.

and OP, you used the word "skill" like 5 times in every sentence, but would you care to actually define what true skill is? regarding the ARPG/Skill-based-shooter thing, I'm not even sure DE know themselves, so how can we ever hope to know?

Those weren't emotions. That was logic. My capitalization on forums isn't for yelling it's for emphasis. I know people tend to take that the wrong way but unfortunately for us all I'm too **** lazy to use italics or bold instead.

Oh and btw- an ARPG can have skill just like any other game. The meaning of it just varies.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Just now, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

He's elaborated on his main points over the course of the thread, but unfortunately some people are focusing on personal quarrels.

I get that tensions are high due to 18.13. People are being more dramatic overall. The doomsaying continues, but seems to be dying down, thank Christ. Can't imagine the anxiety that comes from making these changes, knowing how a subset of the player base will react.

At least a lot of really good feedback has surfaced amidst the outcry.

the thing is though, this is just the beginning. DE will likely go after other frames next, including some VERY popular Meta ones like Nova, Loki etc... this is but a grain of salt compared to the almighty Salt avalanche that wil befall us on that day... and that's if those reworks go well to begin with.

I know it's very "end is nigh ermahgerhd", but I totally foresee this. I saw it in my dusty, clouded, scratched Crystal Ball, so it's legit.

[BCAW]

2 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

You're not expected to do that. You're expected to either be ok with it or make the decision that you're not voice CONSTRUCTIVE opinions as to why, or just leave.

They're not trying to limit playtime. They're trying to limit cheese. They're trying to limit people's ability to BEAT missions without even taking part in them- interacting with them. People play the game without PLAYING the game. Without challenge. Without fun. THAT is what they're trying to change. To do that they're fixing cheese tactics, overpowered abilities in general, and enemy scaling so that it will do it's job RIGHT. They're trying to limit people blowing through content without actually using it and in turn becoming bored of the game due to their own toxic mentality of "gotta get that high MR mmmbaby imma be an elite and make it MLG!". They're trying to save their game because they finally realized if they don't act that's what's going to happen. I don't understand why they waited so long but at least they finally accepted they either had to cut off the gang green limb or die.

Constructive opinion as to why people would willingly cheese and/or push the soft limit DE has put on us? Because there is reward to be had for doing that. Just because the enemies are supposed to kill us, doesn't mean we are obligated to accept that, and just lay down, curl up in a fetal position and die. Enemy scaling is not a limit; its a challenge. If DE wants to limit how long we can stay in missions, then give us a limit, not a challenge.

As for playing without challenge or fun, when people cheese endless missions, its not for fun, its for reward. Until DE figure out a way for the game to be both challenging, fun, and rewarding at the same time, people will seek paths of least resistance to rewards.