The Problem is Player Expectation

[BlackCoMerc]

Or more especially, the lack of its being appropriately managed.

Consider:

Is Warframe a Horde Mode ARPG? If it is, then room splattering, map blinding powers that counter annoying gear checks like grappling hook and knockdown spam from enemies make sense.

In a Horde based ARPG, you use powerful cheese to avoid being cheesed. You press buttons and enemies are blinded, splattered, assassinated and mutilated in mass, with weapons kicking in for the occasional, power resistant big bad.

If Warframe is ARPG, then throw in some power resistant mini bosses on regular missions to force the occasional gear check in a level appropriate manner, GIVE YS BACK OUR POWERFUL ABILITIES.

If, on the other hand, Warframe is a skill based shooter...if this is the case...oh, do be careful going down this road.

Skill based enemies don't cheese their players. They don't rely on artificial stun locks (Commander), knockdown spam, grapple hook spam and power and health draining Auras.

Skill based games feature enemies that are readily distinguished from their peers, with clearly understood abilities each of which offers PURELY skill based counterplay.

Skill based games might still feature gear checks, but only in the loosest terms. In skill based games, Handspring isn't needed, because robbing players of control isn't depended on to keep their adequate but reasonable powers in check.

Oh, that's right: magic powers in skill based games exist. But they are reasonable and adequate, not map wide or god like.

To me, Warframe is an ARPG with guns and action movement. Not endorsing this; it's just how I see it.

I think lots of players, though, want Warframe to BECOME a skill based Shooter.

I think DE needs to step in, and clarify their position on this. Crystal . Clear. People have and are spending money on this game. Including to customize their frames and gear according to what type of game Warframe is NOW. 

If DE are in the process of knowingly altering Warframes underlying identity, that's a thing money spending players deserve to know.

So which is it, DE? Are you building an ARPG with guns based on fending off hordes of monsters and acquiring treasure? If so, please five us back our powerful horde mode tools, and work on loot, cause crafting resources as loot is kinda boring.

If on the other hand our magical Space Ninjas are going to end up in a tighter, more skill based game, with fewer enemies more closely resembling Rathuum than the current Horde...if that is your destination your paying customers deserve to know.

End the Salt Shaking. Help us define our expectations of you, and Warframe.

Otherwise, a lit of folks are gonna be drinking margaritas with nothing left to line the glass at this rate...

[Naftal]

Grappling hooks and knockdowns are not a gear check but player skill check.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, Naftal said:

Grappling hooks and knockdowns are not a gear check but player skill check.

Sorry, but no. 

On a crowded map where enemies cannot even be seen, but can spear you mid flight with a hook that tracks your movement and fires at 90+ degree angles to snag you...that's a gear check.

There is no skill based way to avoid that. You've got enemies in front. Enemies behind. To the side. Only two eyes.

No amount of skill can keep that from happening because you can't see it until it has happened.

[Naftal]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Sorry, but no. 

On a crowded map where enemies cannot even be seen, but can spear you mid flight with a hook that tracks your movement and fires at 90+ degree angles to snag you...that's a gear check.

There is no skill based way to avoid that. You've got enemies in front. Enemies behind. To the side. Only two eyes.

No amount of skill can keep that from happening because you can't see it until it has happened.

It only tracks movement on launch, after that it goes in a straight line and you can just change direction. On top of that we have melee attacks, rolls, ability casts, blocking and some other animations that give knockdown immunity.

In my opinion paying attention to sound cues and other things while timing your actions is FULLY skill based.

[Stratego89]

Oh good... another one of these people. If you actually kept up with what DE is doing you'd know they've said that they're going to be altering Enemy scaling and cheese tactics since we're losing our cheese tactics to deal with those cheese tactics.

But fun fact- enemies don't cheese outside of 360 MLG noscope Ballista without any telegraph and Denial bursa knockdown spam that lasts for 5 seconds and gets you killed 100% of the time it hits. Everything else is fair. We're not meant to go past level 150 enemies and easily survive like we can now. We're DEFINITELY not meant to EVER be able to reach level 5000 enemies like some people do. We're meant to DIE. That's the POINT of scaling. It's not CHEESE. It's POWER SCALING. KILLING us is the point. GET OVER IT.

 

EDIT: Oh- and people CHOOSE to spend their money on a BETA game that is IN DEVELOPMENT with a EULA THAT SAYS ANYTHING CAN AND WILL CHANGE AT ANY TIME. If they don't like how the game changes- well SUCKS for them but that's not DE's fault.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Stratego89

[Kai_Shiba]

Rolling ignores knockdowns

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by KJRenz

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

there's a grey zone between skill-based and press-one-button-for-half-an-hour though.

anyway i'd welcome more "meaningful" encounters. trash mobs are alright but some units have to pack a punch. rathuum might be a good example.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Oh good... another one of these people. If you actually kept up with what DE is doing you'd know they've said that they're going to be altering Enemy scaling and cheese tactics since we're losing our cheese tactics to deal with those cheese tactics.

But fun fact- enemies don't cheese outside of 360 MLG noscope Ballista without any telegraph and Denial bursa knockdown spam that lasts for 5 seconds and gets you killed 100% of the time it hits. Everything else is fair. We're not meant to go past level 150 enemies and easily survive like we can now. We're DEFINITELY not meant to EVER be able to reach level 5000 enemies like some people do. We're meant to DIE. That's the POINT of scaling. It's not CHEESE. It's POWER SCALING. KILLING us is the point. GET OVER IT.

 

EDIT: Oh- and people CHOOSE to spend their money on a BETA game that is IN DEVELOPMENT with a EULA THAT SAYS ANYTHING CAN AND WILL CHANGE AT ANY TIME. If they don't like how the game changes- well SUCKS for them but that's not DE's fault.

The Perpetual Beta excuse is getting old.

Your games going on its third or fourth YEAR and has a cash shop.

It's not in Beta any more. Sorry, not letting that old "get out of criticism free" card slide. Firefall tried to hide behind that; it's dead now.

Edited May 29, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Kai_Shiba]

6 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The Perpetual Beta excuse is getting old.

Your games going on its third or fourth YEAR and has a cash shop.

It's not in Beta any more. Sorry, not letting that old "get out if criticism free" card slide. Firefall tried to hide behind that; it's dead now.

Firefall died because of terrible developers.

They didn't fix anything, the game was full of bugs that haven't been fixed since release, and they never communicated with the community. They just did whatever the hell they wanted. They killed their own game.

Edited May 29, 2016 by KJRenz

[Soulden]

Mini boss, example: Hyena lifts front legs up, everyone stands in front of it, 3 teammates to revive.

Boss stands still swinging weapon, teammates empty 4 clips before realizing immune stage,

See enemy with large aura: still casting abilities hoping it dies from boredom.

Sees enemy launching harpoon, too busy spamming ability to side step.

DE at fault. 

 

 

[Fionntan]

9 minutes ago, Naftal said:

Grappling hooks and knockdowns are not a gear check but player skill check.

My only beef atm is hooks shouldn't scale damage wise to the point it suddenly almost one shots a player, should get some sort soft cap on it.

That is all.

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

The Perpetual Beta excuse is getting old.

Your games going on its third or fourth YEAR and has a cash shop.

It's not in Beta any more. Sorry, not letting that old "get out if criticism free" card slide. Firefall tried to hide behind that; it's dead now.

Fixed ~

Nah actually I'd call it Chinafall

[Stratego89]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The Perpetual Beta excuse is getting old.

Your games going on its third or fourth YEAR and has a cash shop.

It's not in Beta any more. Sorry, not letting that old "get out of criticism free" card slide. Firefall tried to hide behind that; it's dead now.

It's not an excuse. It's an operating model. It's the same operating model that keeps this game alive and makes it so very good compared to others.

DE doesn't hide from criticism. DE doesn't use beta as an excuse for criticism. DE WELCOMES criticism- and USES it to shape their game. But ofc you're probably just a salty hater that can't stand the concept of balance so I wouldn't expect you to know anything about how DE actually operates.

[Chroia]

Obligatory, because obligatory:

 

-----

22 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I think DE needs to step in, and clarify their position on this.

I'd say that it's more of 'first they need to formulate a position. Then they need to communicate it to the players', but yes, on all sorts of things.

 

4 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

My only beef atm is hooks shouldn't scale damage wise to the point it suddenly almost one shots a player, should get some sort soft cap on it.

And lest we forget: Toxic Ancient harpoons.

Edit: Clarification - They also have harpoons. Which benefit from their +Toxin damage aura.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Chroia

[Fionntan]

2 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Obligatory:

  Reveal hidden contents

I'd say that it's more of 'first they need to formulate a position. Then they need to communicate it to the players', but yes, on all sorts of things.

 

And lest we forget: Toxic Ancient harpoons.

Is been ages since I get combo'd by them tbh, so they aren't my nemesis to say the least.

Nulls on the other hand....

Edited May 29, 2016 by Fionntan

[magusat999]

10 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Oh good... another one of these people. If you actually kept up with what DE is doing you'd know they've said that they're going to be altering Enemy scaling and cheese tactics since we're losing our cheese tactics to deal with those cheese tactics.

But fun fact- enemies don't cheese outside of 360 MLG noscope Ballista without any telegraph and Denial bursa knockdown spam that lasts for 5 seconds and gets you killed 100% of the time it hits. Everything else is fair. We're not meant to go past level 150 enemies and easily survive like we can now. We're DEFINITELY not meant to EVER be able to reach level 5000 enemies like some people do. We're meant to DIE. That's the POINT of scaling. It's not CHEESE. It's POWER SCALING. KILLING us is the point. GET OVER IT.

 

EDIT: Oh- and people CHOOSE to spend their money on a BETA game that is IN DEVELOPMENT with a EULA THAT SAYS ANYTHING CAN AND WILL CHANGE AT ANY TIME. If they don't like how the game changes- well SUCKS for them but that's not DE's fault.

Punctuation is a thing... makes everything - COMPREHENSIBLE.

[BlackCoMerc]

6 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

Firefall died because of terrible developers.

They didn't fix anything, the game was full of bugs that haven't been fixed since release, and they never communicated with the community. They just did whatever the hell they wanted.

Hmm...sounds familiar. Willing to bet some players think the same if Warframe right now.

I don't think that, but I bet some do.

6 minutes ago, Souldend78 said:

Mini boss, example: Hyena lifts front legs up, everyone stands in front of it, 3 teammates to revive.

Boss stands still swinging weapon, teammates empty 4 clips before realizing immune stage,

See enemy with large aura: still casting abilities hoping it dies from boredom.

Sees enemy launching harpoon, too busy spamming ability to side step.

DE at fault. 

 

 

DE is at fault in large part .

Because you can't see the aura for the hordes around you.

You can't tell it, from the thousands visual effects clogging your screen. 

And you can't tell the enemy projectingsaid aura from the versions that aren't.

4 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

It's not an excuse. It's an operating model. It's the same operating model that keeps this game alive and makes it so very good compared to others.

DE doesn't hide from criticism. DE doesn't use beta as an excuse for criticism. DE WELCOMES criticism- and USES it to shape their game. But ofc you're probably just a salty hater that can't stand the concept of balance so I wouldn't expect you to know anything about how DE actually operates.

Actually I like these balance changes

Edited May 29, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Phatose]

It's an ARPG.  It's a game about progress, per Steve.

It's not going to become a twitch shooter.

Powers that allow people to bypass gear checks are counterproductive, since they let you skip the "Acquire gear and level up" part of the game that is the entire point of the game, and it's entire meat.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Phatose

[Kai_Shiba]

5 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Hmm...sounds familiar. Willing to bet some players think the same if Warframe right now.

I don't think that, but I bet some do

Anyone who thinks that is completely ignorant. DE handles things much much better than Red5 ever did in any regard.

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by KJRenz

[Ceryk]

2 minutes ago, Phatose said:

It's an ARPG.  It's a game about progress, per Steve.

It's not going to become a twitch shooter.

Unfortunately, they don't do enough about making the game a legitimate progression system. They've talked about doing it, but the last devstream kind of made it sound like they were backing off some aspects they've discussed in the past, which is really unfortunate...

[BlackCoMerc]

4 minutes ago, Phatose said:

It's an ARPG.  It's a game about progress, per Steve.

It's not going to become a twitch shooter.

Powers that allow people to bypass gear checks are counterproductive, since they let you skip the "Acquire gear and level up" part of the game that is the entire point of the game, and it's entire meat.

I think that's a fair assessment. On the other hand, horde mode ARPG games usually do feature powerful abilities as well.

They need to consider weapon mods that synergize with abilities to pump abilities.

Maybe...for 5 seconds after killing an enemy with your rifle, gain +50% power strength, etc...

4 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

Anyone who thinks that is completely ignorant. DE handles things much much better than Red5 ever did in any regard.

 

Oh, I agree there completely.

[magusat999]

5 minutes ago, Souldend78 said:

Mini boss, example: Hyena lifts front legs up, everyone stands in front of it, 3 teammates to revive.

DE at fault. 

Was it a mini-boss or just an enemy in a level 10-15 mission?

7 minutes ago, Souldend78 said:

 

Boss stands still swinging weapon, teammates empty 4 clips before realizing immune stage,

DE at fault. 

Was there a message saying he was immune? Was this the first time they encountered the enemy? Hmmm...

 

8 minutes ago, Souldend78 said:

See enemy with large aura: still casting abilities hoping it dies from boredom.

DE at fault. 

Nullifiers? Only people doing that are people who really don't know. De IS at fault because what tells a new player Nullifiers are like that? NOTHING.

11 minutes ago, Souldend78 said:

 

Sees enemy launching harpoon, too busy spamming ability to side step.

DE at fault. 

Did they see it? is seeing it a guarantee they can avoid getting grabbed? Does side-stepping / dodging ALWAYS work? NO is the answer. And what's wrong with using the ability? Seems to be a sensitive problem there...

 

12 minutes ago, Souldend78 said:

DE at fault. 

The only thing that you said that's a hundred percent true. WE didn't make the game - DE did. So YES, everything IS their fault. If you don't believe that - go ahead and fix the problems - tell us when your hotfix is coming out. i know you don't want people criticizing DE, and if you do - only the criticisms you can accept - but they ... wait for it... ARE ONLY HUMAN - and they make mistakes too. They aren't Gods! hard to believe, IKR??? But it's true... just ask around... You cannot blame EVERYTHING on player error and NOTHING on DE (well you can but you'd be wrong). This is their baby, and they gotta accept the poo poo with the kisses, sorry.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

Was it a mini-boss or just an enemy in a level 10-15 mission?

Was there a message saying he was immune? Was this the first time they encountered the enemy? Hmmm...

 

Nullifiers? Only people doing that are people who really don't know. De IS at fault because what tells a new player Nullifiers are like that? NOTHING.

Did they see it? is seeing it a guarantee they can avoid getting grabbed? Does side-stepping / dodging ALWAYS work? NO is the answer. And what's wrong with using the ability? Seems to be a sensitive problem there...

 

The only thing that you said that's a hundred percent true. WE didn't make the game - DE did. So YES, everything IS their fault. If you don't believe that - go ahead and fix the problems - tell us when your hotfix is coming out. i know you don't want people criticizing DE, and if you do - only the criticisms you can accept - but they ... wait for it... ARE ONLY HUMAN - and they make mistakes too. They aren't Gods! hard to believe, IKR??? But it's true... just ask around... You cannot blame EVERYTHING on player error and NOTHING on DE (well you can but you'd be wrong). This is their baby, and they gotta accept the poo poo with the kisses, sorry.

Finally, someone who understands. Thanks for that.

[notlamprey]

57 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

~snip~

Well said; this is a discussion we need to have.

Don't be discouraged by the hyper-confrontational attitude of some people who don't understand the post, because we absolutely do need to find out where Warframe is headed on the continuum of "skill-based shooter" vs. "horde mode ARPG."

I think a lot of the players asking for challenge are fundamentally misunderstanding what they want, and perhaps unintentionally pressuring DE to lead the game in a direction that is less fun for everybody.

Perhaps we're only in a painful stage of restructuring that will leave us with a much better experience. Only time will tell. Meanwhile, keep posting good stuff and don't let the mean-spirited comments of others douse your enthusiasm.

We... kinda need people who still really care about giving good feedback around here.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

33 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The Perpetual Beta excuse is getting old.

Your games going on its third or fourth YEAR and has a cash shop.

It's not in Beta any more. Sorry, not letting that old "get out of criticism free" card slide. Firefall tried to hide behind that; it's dead now.

Are you arguing they should stop developing the game...? I don't understand your point in this post.

I disagree with all three examples you provided in the OP, though. Whether or not WF is a horde  game, cheese is not rewarding or satisfying. When a game reaches that point, it becomes a clicker - you're just tapping buttons to watch the numbers go up. There's no joy in it. Plus, I dislike when whether I die comes down to a crapshoot. I would prefer DE continue with its present course, and remove cheese from the game on both player and enemy sides... and then, ideally, remove nullifiers. Or at least tone their spawns way down, and have them merely hamper abilities' effects instead of canceling them outright. Because the entire purpose of nullifiers is to counter cheese.

DE has finally started a major overhaul, the end goal of which is balance. And boy is it long overdue. Waiting this long to start means that the process is going to be very painful, both for us and DE. They've said repeatedly that inflated mod numbers make the game difficult to balance, because there are too many unnecessarily high values to account for anytime they introduce a new mod, weapon or frame. It also makes enemy balancing very difficult. These nerfs are only the first step. Next is Damage 3.0, and then Mods 3.0 (possibly in the opposite order, but I hope not). The end result will be a much more concentrated game that is easier to develop. Which means more content faster, and probably of higher quality too.

I strongly suspect these changes are in response to issues revealed by attempts to balance nodes on the new star chart, which allegedly has adjustable difficulty tiers.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, notlamprey said:

Well said; this is a discussion we need to have.

Don't be discouraged by the hyper-confrontational attitude of some people who don't understand the post, because we absolutely do need to find out where Warframe is headed on the continuum of "skill-based shooter" vs. "horde mode ARPG."

I think a lot of the players asking for challenge are fundamentally misunderstanding what they want, and perhaps unintentionally pressuring DE to lead the game in a direction that is less fun for everybody.

Perhaps we're only in a painful stage of restructuring that will leave us with a much better experience. Only time will tell. Meanwhile, keep posting good stuff and don't let the mean-spirited comments of others douse your enthusiasm.

We... kinda need people who still really care about giving good feedback around here.

Thanks for this.

I think player expectations are important. They help build hype and genuine enthusiasm.

But they can also derail a game too. Too much bad press and all.

So yeah. Hopefully DE can do something to indicate where on that spectrum - approximately - they want to land, in the longer run.

And with respect to those wanting a purely twitch, skill based experience...I don't think you're going to get it here.