Thoughts on the nerf/if it works too good nuke it mentality.

[DeadlyBannana]

Hello everyone. First time I ever create a new topic, so be gentle :).

 

   Ok first of all I love warframe, we all do this is why we are here and I'will be honest. I hate nerfs. Nerfs are things that usually make me stop playing as much as I used to and make me go around the web collecting peoples opinions on the matter. This particular nerf has litteraly split the community in 3 factions. The hell yeah nerf everything faction, the some are good some are bad faction and the faction that is really creative on creating swear words for DE. All around after trying out some things myself things arent as bad as they seem. Sure trinity bless is borderline useless for teamplay in endgame, and so is mirage blind. However, overall the game is still playable and the raids still beatable.

  """" My problem with these nerfs is what they took away from us. And this is the casual approach to farming. If you look at the core of warframe its a grinding game. All you do is this: grind for loot, with the exceptions of quests here and there. Grinding can be really tedious from times to times. Especially when RNG is blocking your path to something and you have to repeat something over and over again until you find it.  This is when the casual approach comes in. Sure I can build a 4 man squad, prepare with the correct auras and team comps to tackle a 20 round interception, but when you do this 20 times with no favorable rewards what so ever, all I want, is to take my mirage blind the room over and over and just w8 till I get what I want.. Again this is optional. Noone forces us to take this approach. Of course it can be done the hard way. BUT WHY should it always be done the hard way. Why souldnt the casual option exist for players who have got too tired of doing it over and over again. 

 Why do you need balance in a pve game ? When the meaning of balance is that everything is on about the same level of power. Why even make tiers of difficulty, when everything has to be "balanced". I find nothing wrong what so ever for broken mechanics being in the game. Why ? CAUSE NOONE IS FORCING YOU OR YOUR TEAM TO USE THEM. If you dont like how OP blind mirage is in T4 int, then find a team that doesnt use mirage. This is a grind game. After youve done everything over and over again, the only thing you care about is speed and efficiency. You dont care about effort anymore cause this seems more like a job, rather than a game. The grind will never change, so at least have the option for it to not be cumbersome. 

  And here is my biggest problem: People who actually want something nerfed because other people use it to much . NO I SIMPLY CANT ACCEPT THAT.  To these people ill just say this. Go find a team of 3 other spiteful who want to go on a 10 hour survival with 4 oberons and good luck with it. I dont care what you do in the game, so stop caring so much on what warframe I use, what weapon I use and which way I use them. ITS NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS, IT DOES NOT IMPACT YOUR GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE.

 

 Point is. Stop nerfing a pve game. I know that DE wants to make you grind for ever to get something, but the more you add barriers to increase the grind, the more people will withdraw from the game. Grinding and extreme difficulty isnt fun for most. At least when you have to repeat this difficulty one million times to get one decent thing out of it. Not paying a single dime to support the game again, until I see DE following a different path. Which I guess will never happen. Also at least fix enemy scaling before gutting everything. 

 

 Peace to all (Except the spiteful guys that want everything nerfed and unplayable). """

 

Ok gonna edit this post to and make a more serious one cause I never expected to even get 1 reply, and dint think it through. (Also changed the idios to spiteful guys so as to not be dissrespectful, however people who have a problem with what others and complain play are spiteful). 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by DeadlyBannana

[KirukaChan]

So people who disagree with you on this topic are idiots, but you want us to be gentle.

Seems legit.

[DeadlyBannana]

5 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

So people who disagree with you on this topic are idiots, but you want us to be gentle.

Seems legit.

I have no problem with people who agree with the nerfs. I have a problem with people who want things nerfed, just out of pure spite, because others use it in their game session.

Edited May 30, 2016 by DeadlyBannana

[Kai_Shiba]

So basically what you want is Warframe to remain unbalanced and the only way to perform well is to stick with one frame only that can trivialize everything without effort. Yea no.

 

[AdunSaveMe]

12 minutes ago, DeadlyBannana said:

Why do you need balance in a pve game ?

At this point I feel like writing my own metacomplaint just to address this mentality. 

[AXCrusnik]

The "casual option" was nerfed because what you call the "casual option" basically removes all gameplay from the game. And I doubt people asking for nerfs are doing it because the weapons are too popular (at least I hope not)... If i ask for a something to be balance its because a thing is too powerful, typically when something OP goes unchecked it becomes a popular thing to use.

I hope this isn't another one of those "this is a PVE game and those don't need balance" type threads. That's so not true, and it's sad to see that so many people think so.

4 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

At this point I feel like writing my own metacomplaint just to address this mentality. 

ah S#&$ it is... well I'll just make my leave since this thread is going to go nowhere

Edited May 30, 2016 by AXCrusnik

[Magnulast]

1 minute ago, DeadlyBannana said:

I have no problem with people who agree with the nerfs. I have a problem with people who want things nerfed, just out of pure spite, because others use it in their game session.

I don't want everything to be nerfed, I want abilties reworked and not abused for their concept.

Like trinities bless. it's not supposed to be a buff, it's supposed to heal other tenno.

Seriously, beforehand it was invulnerability, next it was 99% damage reduction spam and now it's actual healing tool.

We need balance in a PvE game, because of two things, DE is a FTP business, and Overabuse of exploiting tools makes the game unfun.

[Maicael]

No one's forcing you to "grind." If you're not finding it enjoyable, then just don't do it.

[jinxeverything]

My problem with DE is that they don't fix what is broken I.E simply OP or what is over delivering something more than it should right away, they take ages and by that time most of us get used to it and create builds and play styles around it :'(

DE, if you think something is not right or broken, take actions, do't wait just simply do it!!

 

 

[Firetempest]

Although this "casual" grind style as you put it is usually the most efficient. Then it forces DE to think about how much everyone needs to make things or how rare drops are due to the ease of farming using cheese methods. If there are vastly more efficient frames, it makes life harder on everyone. When the top tier is nerfed, DE can relax on on the prerequisites of items and enemy scaling. Sure nerfing means some people cant get a half dozen C rotations on a single key anymore, as you cant milk it in you touted "casual" mode of grinding. But then maybe DE wont make it so dont feel like you need to get X amount of rotations per key. But everyone will always strive for efficiency and feel extremely slighted when their perfectly tuned farm machine gets a wrench thrown at it for the betterment of everyone else. Problem is there is still really great farm frames and not all of them got a hammer at the same time.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Firetempest

[Genitive]

7 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

At this point I feel like writing my own metacomplaint just to address this mentality. 

I'm with you.

[Solstrome]

I can see your point. Balance isn't really important when all you do is fight AI. If a player feels that limits them to one small set of gear then that's their own problem for only wanting to min-max. Personally I think what we need is a greater variety of weapons and not just more variations of assault rifles and machine pistols. They're all just minor changes to each-other and the only thing that makes one stand out from the rest is damage. I think we need more unique things like Stug, Ignis, Quanta, Buzlok, Simulor etc. Things that change the gameplay rather than just being another stat block for essentially the same gun you've already used in various forms. A nerf should only really be needed if the weapon has become game-breakingly overpowered. (Anyone remember being able to shoot down Helos with the USAS-12 in Battlefield 3?)

[Fi-le]

3 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

So basically what you want is Warframe to remain unbalanced and the only way to perform well is to stick with one frame only that can trivialize everything without effort. Yea no.

 

im sorry but when you say "...to stick with one frame only that can trivialize everything without effort" are you talking about Excalibur? ;) no because everyone are yelling "stop with Press4ToWin" and excalibur is....oh im SORRY... he is Press*meleeKey*ToWin so he does-not-count! -__- 

 

[(PSN)Cwellann]

13 minutes ago, DeadlyBannana said:

This is when the casual approach comes in. Sure I can build a 4 man squad, prepare with the correct auras and team comps to tackle a 20 round interception, but when you do this 20 times with no favorable rewards what so ever, all I want, is to take my mirage blind the room over and over and just w8 till I get what I want.

While I disagree (rather strongly) with your conclusions, I do feel it necessary to share something here.  Two nights ago, my buddies and I were doing a LoR without a bless Trin or a Mirage, and one of my clanmates remarked once we got it done that it was a lot more exciting and interesting that way.  We all agreed - and then I asked him if he would want to do it that way every single night.  His reply was a profanity punctuated no.  This led to a discussion on time required per day to accomplish all dailies (raids, focus, void farming, syndicate medallions, forma'ing, etc) - and, forgive me for mentioning that other game, but we all came to agreement that a weekly reset for raids, with rewards calibrated as such, would make all of us much more interested in doing the raid as a challenge, instead of just slogging through it to get the arcane.  You can of course tell me to just raid weekly, but as far as reasonable time to complete a stack of arcanes go, that's not really practical.  I know it's never going to happen because it would result in the loss of a lot of players who are attracted only to shinies and not gameplay, but a rebalancing of the grind would do a lot to make the game more fun - as it is now, it's just "ok, what goal are we trying to accomplish" instead of "ok, what do we want to do".

2 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

actual healing tool.

I'm sorry, but this is sticking your head in the sand.  At the point where you actually need a dedicated healer enough to give up damage or cc, player ttk is not reasonable for an actual healing tool.  Damage mitigation is the only option because scaling is completely borked.  So, hopefully this is the next thing on the table - my wife loved playing a whm in ffxi, and if this game had a viable healing class/mechanics, I might be able to talk her into playing.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Unfortunately, balance doesn't work the way you think it does. No clue how long you've been playing, but I'll briefly talk about post-damage 2.0 Warframe and how lack of PvE balance affected everyone:

 

Once upon a time, the devs said Warframe was balanced around level 50, tops. But some items were already able to go well beyond that level with ease. So DE created T4, with three times the damage. Right away, certain frames without CC became too risky to bring, so either frames got reworked to add a CC effect somewhere (reducing variety), or they didn't get used. But T4, for those who had CC, wasn't much harder than T3.

Something similar happened when Tactical Alerts first started appearing. There was one, for example, where a glitch caused the enemies to be level 150. Yet people with certain frames were still easily able to complete it. In another, people would drop hundreds of restores and spam hundreds of snowglobes. It wasn't fun, but it was easy.

And I'm sure DE had this in mind when they made Trials, which some invulnerability and CC still could make easy. Meanwhile, people who played for fun had the choice of steering clear or dealing with it.

And many of the new or reworked enemies that have appeared, like reworked Infested, Bursas, and Nullifiers, have been in direct response to creeping player power. Yet they still only encouraged players to rely on spam more.

So the point is, yes it impacts my gameplay experience. Yes, it impacts the experience of all the people who say "Warframe's boring" "It's just a grind game" "It's too hard when you're new and too easy when you're not".

Now, if you go to Developer Workshop and look, there's talk about how to handle enemies; the goal is clearly to shrink the power curve so that players and enemies can exist in a state where skill still matters, not only gear, where players can still have fun and handle new, high level content without constantly meta-chasing, and where you can still be challenged.

Don't disrespect me, call me a spiteful idiot or whatever. We're in a game where a Synoid Simulor and Tonkor are 80% of the primaries people bring to high level content. Are they fun? Is not aiming ever in a shooter fun? Was stabbing enemies who were completely unable to fight back fun? Was having 100x the effective health, making you effectively invincible, fun? How about being an auto-aim turret? And even if you think those things were, do you think most people would agree?

[Kai_Shiba]

2 minutes ago, Fi-le said:

im sorry but when you say "...to stick with one frame only that can trivialize everything without effort" are you talking about Excalibur? ;) no because everyone are yelling "stop with Press4ToWin" and excalibur is....oh im SORRY... he is Press*meleeKey*ToWin so he does-not-count! -__- 

 

I hope you realize that he can still die. Plus, I'm sure you haven't tested the new Excalibur changes. He HAS to be in close-mid range now to do full damage.

Excaliburs damage falls off and you need radial blind to do anything anyway at high levels. So the Excalibur excuse is invalid.

Edited May 30, 2016 by KJRenz

[DeadlyBannana]

Lol I was pretty tired of playing warframe all day, and I figured I make a stupid post for the lolz and to get some reaction :). Dint expect to even get a single reply to all you guys crucifying me or supporting thank you for your time :P.

[(PSN)Blue_Sins]

Can I pick some popcorn? :S

[FoxyKabam]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Ggking8 said:

Can I pick some popcorn? :S

you can have some of mine if you want

someone put a girl in it though

[(PSN)Blue_Sins]

Just now, FoxyKabam said:

you can have some of mine if you want

someone put a girl in it though

I want one 0_o

[RavenCorella]

healing tool, lol ok.

 

How is healing supposed to help you when you get one hit killed all the time?

Unless that 4 magically revives everyone on top of healing them, trinity remains useless on lvl 100 missions

[ComfyOlivia]

23 minutes ago, DeadlyBannana said:

Hello everyone. First time I ever create a new topic, so be gentle :).

 

   Ok first of all I love warframe, we all do this is why we are here and I'will be honest. I hate nerfs. Nerfs are things that usually make me stop playing as much as I used to and make me go around the web collecting peoples opinions on the matter. This particular nerf has litteraly split the community in 3 factions. The hell yeah nerf everything faction, the some are good some are bad faction and the faction that is really creative on creating swear words for DE. All around after trying out some things myself things arent as bad as they seem. Sure trinity bless is borderline useless for teamplay in endgame, and so is mirage blind. However, overall the game is still playable and the raids still beatable.

   My problem with these nerfs is what they took away from us. And this is the casual approach to farming. If you look at the core of warframe its a grinding game. All you do is this: grind for loot, with the exceptions of quests here and there. Grinding can be really tedious from times to times. Especially when RNG is blocking your path to something and you have to repeat something over and over again until you find it.  This is when the casual approach comes in. Sure I can build a 4 man squad, prepare with the correct auras and team comps to tackle a 20 round interception, but when you do this 20 times with no favorable rewards what so ever, all I want, is to take my mirage blind the room over and over and just w8 till I get what I want.. Again this is optional. Noone forces us to take this approach. Of course it can be done the hard way. BUT WHY should it always be done the hard way. Why souldnt the casual option exist for players who have got too tired of doing it over and over again. 

 Why do you need balance in a pve game ? When the meaning of balance is that everything is on about the same level of power. Why even make tiers of difficulty, when everything has to be "balanced". I find nothing wrong what so ever for broken mechanics being in the game. Why ? CAUSE NOONE IS FORCING YOU OR YOUR TEAM TO USE THEM. If you dont like how OP blind mirage is in T4 int, then find a team that doesnt use mirage. This is a grind game. After youve done everything over and over again, the only thing you care about is speed and efficiency. You dont care about effort anymore cause this seems more like a job, rather than a game. The grind will never change, so at least have the option for it to not be cumbersome. 

  And here is my biggest problem: People who actually want something nerfed because other people use it to much . NO I SIMPLY CANT ACCEPT THAT.  To these people ill just say this. Go find a team of 3 other idiots who want to go on a 10 hour survival with 4 oberons and good luck with it. I dont care what you do in the game, so stop caring so much on what warframe I use, what weapon I use and which way I use them. ITS NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS, IT DOES NOT IMPACT YOUR GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE.

 

 Point is. Stop nerfing a pve game. I know that DE wants to make you grind for ever to get something, but the more you add barriers to increase the grind, the more people will withdraw from the game. Grinding and extreme difficulty isnt fun for most. At least when you have to repeat this difficulty one million times to get one decent thing out of it. Not paying a single dime to support the game again, until I see DE following a different path. Which I guess will never happen. Also at least fix enemy scaling before gutting everything. 

 

 Peace to all (Except the spiteful idiots that want everything nerfed and unplayable).

I want to upvote, but there's some pretty huge issues with your point.

As someone in the middle, I say balancing is necessary but overbalancing is harmful. This is a fairly common point of view for folks in the middle. Another thing a lot of us share, though, is our belief that while balancing is completely necessary, just Balancing frames is the wrong move, regardless of which frames you balance.

Now, I too find it silly that there are a bunch of people that think everything should be nerfed. However, thinking everything should stay the way it is, is almost as silly.

[DeadlyBannana]

Lol I think I started world war 3

[FoxyKabam]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Ggking8 said:

I want one 0_o

just one popcorn?

look we can just eat around her goofy face

[(PSN)Blue_Sins]

Just now, FoxyKabam said:

just one popcorn?

look we can just eat around her goofy face

Not 1 popcorn,1 million of popcorn ~__~