Why is the Meta the "Enemy"

[IceColdHawk]

21 minutes ago, Lijka said:

Bad passive is bette than no passive, I suppose but that's about it.

I think nyx wants to have a word with you. (unless mind control doesn't work with it)

21 minutes ago, Lijka said:

I understand what you are trying to say, but personally I feel like there wasn't much heart in the work DE put on passives.

I share the exact same feeling regarding this.

21 minutes ago, Lijka said:

And bringing "weaker" frames on par with "meta" frames is always more desirable than nerfing something.

True that. Then again, i can't argue with the prism nerf. Why? It put every other CC ability into shame. It's not that it was "useful" but it just made other CC abilities look useless. So there's that. But the blessing nerf on the other hand...

1 hour ago, ShardsSuperior said:

Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm make him an area-denial god

God? Those 2 unreliable CC abilities make him an area-denial god? Don't kid yourself. But oh well, at least he can afk as a puddle in infested defenses so there's that.

1 hour ago, AM-Bunny said:

As I said, 'bringing up the ones that are down' was exactly the intention with Mag and Volt's revamps. Perhaps they missed the mark on the former

Not only on the former, mate. Volt got also, i don't want to say it but it is objectively correct, nerfed. His 2 won't speed up your mates before they pick up the item. Then there's his volt shield limit. The buffs he got in return aren't a big deal. The ult could have been nice but instead has no scaling and the stun wears off after the damage cap is reached. Disappointing really. And the Riot Shield could have been a good thing but instead it came with too many unnecessary drawbacks. Change to secondary? Energy drain along with the timer? What? While the former isn't a big deal to me personally, the latter definitely is a turn off. I think the greatest buff he got was that the electric shields block explosions now, really nice. Hopefully there's more to come. Because i'm not seeing volt being much better than before.

Edited June 1, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Tuxie]

Why is meta the enemy? Essentially it boils down to this for them:

"Other people are playing this game in a way I don't like? I won't stand for this"

[YasaiTsume]

It is actually very simple.

Meta becomes a problem when the game becomes stale because a large number of the community starts saying things like "Warframe is boring" while continuing to do the boring stuff.

If the Meta can consistently trivialise any new content the devs churn out, it is obviously time to take a huge hammer to the thing causing the game to be so "easy" 

 

Of course DE has their own fault of making Enemy scaling so tough and hard but ultimately, it is everyones fault that we chose to let a game turn stale by cheesing missions because DE gave us the tools, and we used the tools. 

Which is why balances need to keep happening or the game will just kill itself. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by YasaiTsume

[Myocarde]

Mostly, puberty-related, i guess. "Not-like-everyone-else" wannabes and the "special snowflake" lovers who support and enable them, out of pity.

 You know, not using a hammer to drive a nail, because it's too "overpowered" (a.k.a, effectively does what it's supposed to do)  and instead, preferring to use one's forehead to perform the same task. HAMMER IS EVIL, IT'S THE META. IT'S WHAT EVERYONE ELSE USES! NERF HAMMER PLS TOO OP

 

 

In terms of this game it just looks silly. Same people want every frame to be equally viable, which goes contra to the core game design of Warframe. (Unless devs actually caved in to all this pleading, crying and moaning and changed their mind). Every frame is a dedicated tool, which should outperform everything else within their dedicated niche.

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

sigh, the sooner those enemy changes come the better. if they ever arrive that is.

[Kalenath]

I don't hate the meta.

I hate being TOLD that if I don't play ONE SPECIFIC WAY that I am a stupid fool who should go throw myself off a cliff for being so stupid as to try to play a video game any other way.

There will ALWAYS be a meta. There will ALWAYS be exploits, cheese and whatever as long as humans exist. Humans as a whole are lazy. Nothing new there.

*shrug*

You play your way, I will play mine.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Kalenath

[(PSN)Vahlon_Valiant]

Real title:Why everybody cheesin my boys

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Vahlon said:

Real title:Why everybody cheesin my boys

This is a place of discussion , if you don't have nothing to add . Disperse 

[KirukaChan]

I don't like the meta because one of the things that helps keep this game fresh for me is being able to switch up my gear frequently and stay relevant. I'd like to think that if I'm using faction-appropriate elements and maxed out damage mods, and I'm not hot dogging, that I should be able to bring whatever Frame/weapons I feel like using, as long as I'm keeping mission objectives in mind (i.e., fast Frames for Capture, Frames that can protect objectives or CC enemies for Defense). As a MR21 with over 3,000 hours on record, I can say that I had more actual fun in my earlier days, slogging through the Star Chart and whatever Void keys I found with whatever gear I liked. Often found myself going back to Latron, Dual Bronco (as they were called back then) and Kestrel. Not because they were "meta", but because they complimented my own play style.

But in this most recent Proxy Retribution thing, after the third mission came around (the Survival one), I had to bring meta gear to counter the ridiculousness of the Hyenas and Bursas, not to mention how fast all of the enemies were moving, which basically meant 75% slow Nova + crit Lanka. That's what I used for Rathuum, for post-rework Kela, and for most high level Sorties (although I switch to Atlas + Hek for Enemy Elemental Enhancement). I don't really have fun using slow Nova, since she dumbs down the gameplay a lot, but then again I don't really like fighting spammy enemies like Bursas either. So it just came down to "let's get this crap out of the way so I can get my reward and go do something else".

The most fun I remember having as a vet in this game was with the Tactical Alerts that limited one's Conclave Score. It made it difficult to do meta builds, and coincidentally, I never felt as though anything meta was required to get the missions done. I also got to make use of quite a few mods that I normally wouldn't.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

5 hours ago, Myocarde said:

Mostly, puberty-related, i guess. "Not-like-everyone-else" wannabes and the "special snowflake" lovers who support and enable them, out of pity.

 You know, not using a hammer to drive a nail, because it's too "overpowered" (a.k.a, effectively does what it's supposed to do)  and instead, preferring to use one's forehead to perform the same task. HAMMER IS EVIL, IT'S THE META. IT'S WHAT EVERYONE ELSE USES! NERF HAMMER PLS TOO OP

 

 

In terms of this game it just looks silly. Same people want every frame to be equally viable, which goes contra to the core game design of Warframe. (Unless devs actually caved in to all this pleading, crying and moaning and changed their mind). Every frame is a dedicated tool, which should outperform everything else within their dedicated niche.

 

Lol this made me laugh & yeah I agree , people seem to want challenge that's why they rather use frames that can easily kill or cc everything

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

5 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

I don't like the meta because one of the things that helps keep this game fresh for me is being able to switch up my gear frequently and stay relevant. I'd like to think that if I'm using faction-appropriate elements and maxed out damage mods, and I'm not hot dogging, that I should be able to bring whatever Frame/weapons I feel like using, as long as I'm keeping mission objectives in mind (i.e., fast Frames for Capture, Frames that can protect objectives or CC enemies for Defense). As a MR21 with over 3,000 hours on record, I can say that I had more actual fun in my earlier days, slogging through the Star Chart and whatever Void keys I found with whatever gear I liked. Often found myself going back to Latron, Dual Bronco (as they were called back then) and Kestrel. Not because they were "meta", but because they complimented my own play style.

But in this most recent Proxy Retribution thing, after the third mission came around (the Survival one), I had to bring meta gear to counter the ridiculousness of the Hyenas and Bursas, not to mention how fast all of the enemies were moving, which basically meant 75% slow Nova + crit Lanka. 

Do you think you would have more fun if the enemies became even more challenging?

[LeMoog]

The reason that meta is always the target is because they want players to keep spending money even when players have perfected some item it is removed form their use so they have to pay out again and again.

Some people who do not invest time or money enjoy hearing the cries when things are ruined for them and to be honest the schadenfreude level in this game is the highest I have ever seen.

Someone told me they believed that the devs hate the players and are punishing them for something they did in a previous life, personally I think it is just coincidence and money that drive them.

[KirukaChan]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

Do you think you would have more fun if the enemies became even more challenging?

I guess it depends on what kind of challenging. I had fun playing Conclave 2.0 (admittedly I haven't been playing it recently, because of lack of dedicated servers and the internet connection at my new place not being as good), because 9/10 times when I died, I was able to admit that: A) I was hot dogging and had it coming. B) That person's reflexes are awesome. Or, C) That person totally outwitted me. In any of those scenarios, I was usually able to learn something from the experience, and improve my own skills in each match.

If DE can incorporate a style of gameplay that's challenging yet fair into the high-level content of their PvE game, then I'd be all for it. To make an obscure comparison, the first game that comes to mind when I think "challenging yet fair" is an indie game on Steam called Rogue Shooter.

[Enno69]

I for my part don't hate the "meta" ; I hate players abusing the meta in every possible way, since this attitude does harm the fun of people who just want to enjoy what the game has to offer. Yes, ok, you believe WF is all about grinding so you need your daily dose of meta-cheesing with perma-CC, nukes and the rest so your character can do grind while you're watching TV or whatever... But, jeez, imo, at one point this just become toxic. I have been denied a spot in a random squad during the latest Pluto-wraith twin vipers alert because I mentionned I would run with Mesa, and apparently that wasn't good enough... Sure, everybody is entitled to play the way he/she wants. But the devs have to create a balance for everyone. The recent rework IS a step in the right direction, although of course there is still much to be done concerning enemy scaling, endless missions, trials etc.

[Tizodd]

Things usually become "Meta" because they're more powerful/efficient than other options.  There are 29 unique frame in the game, not including primes.  I don't know how many weapons there are but there's a ton.  The devs have worked hard to create these frames/weapons/companions, it's disheartening to see only a handful of them played while others sit and collect dust.

It's not about hating meta...it's about promoting diversity.  Warframe starts to lose it's appeal and become boring when people think every defense mission has to have an EV, Frost, and Nova/Ash/Banshee to succeed, and everyone is using a Tonkor/Simulor.

[kleerr2]

I have a better question...

Why do most people(DE included), Nerf content, in general, when said content's meta is the ''Enemy''(the problem)?! I would really like to know...

[YasaiTsume]

44 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

I have a better question...

Why do most people(DE included), Nerf content, in general, when said content's meta is the ''Enemy''(the problem)?! I would really like to know...

I think yur not reading the entire thread at all.

Many players have already mentioned that Meta content is constantly nerfed or balanced because they are taking away diversity from a game, making it stale.

Using overpowered meta items to steam roll content that Devs work hard to push out is insulting. 

 

It's like playing Cookie Clicker starting with all upgrades unlocked : Why bother playing? 

Hence Devs would eventually look at the meta equipment and nerf them or balance them so they do not make everything else obsolete, encouraging players to try out other methods and have fun generally. 

Unless yu enjoy sitting down with yur Keyboard macro for 40 minutes back when PM + Greedy Pull combo existed, then I question why even play Warframe. 

(Example extends to spamming Exalted Blade non stop as if Excalibur only has 1 Ability instead of 4, or Perma blinding the entire map as Mirage just to sit around for 15 minutes waiting for 100% on Intercept.) 

 

[RealPandemonium]

Meta will always be around; the goal is to make meta options a little better/easier than alternatives instead of egregiously stronger and virtually hands-free.  DE has always offered an easy way out for less skilled or lazy players, but it has become excessive to a degree that can only be described as neglectful.  

[kleerr2]

1 hour ago, YasaiTsume said:

I think yur not reading the entire thread at all.

Many players have already mentioned that Meta content is constantly nerfed or balanced because they are taking away diversity from a game, making it stale.

Using overpowered meta items to steam roll content that Devs work hard to push out is insulting. 

 

It's like playing Cookie Clicker starting with all upgrades unlocked : Why bother playing? 

Hence Devs would eventually look at the meta equipment and nerf them or balance them so they do not make everything else obsolete, encouraging players to try out other methods and have fun generally. 

Unless yu enjoy sitting down with yur Keyboard macro for 40 minutes back when PM + Greedy Pull combo existed, then I question why even play Warframe. 

(Example extends to spamming Exalted Blade non stop as if Excalibur only has 1 Ability instead of 4, or Perma blinding the entire map as Mirage just to sit around for 15 minutes waiting for 100% on Intercept.) 

 

Re-read my comment, and use your intelligence to actually understand the question i am asking, because you clearly did not understand a single word i wrote down. I made my question perfectly clear, this is not the kindergarten, i can't make my question any more simple... But alas i will attempt...

The question at hand is practical:

Nerfing meta(builds) of a specific content(weapon/frame), which leads to other content not being cheesed/ overshadowed.

Or

Nerfing content(weapon/frame) in general(at base), which leads to ''suffering''(dissatisfaction) of both people that cheese, AND THOSE THAT DO NOT!

Since most people think the second choice is the way to go, I ask:

Why??!!

Why punish those that abuse, along with those that do not?!

Here, ill even give an example: Why nerf Trinity's Bless DR, in general(its core/base function) instead of nerfing metabuilds, like self dmg, and/or quickthinking. When pre nerf 90%+ DR was quite risky(to say the least) to pull off, without self dmg/quickthinking...

[ShardsSuperior]

10 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

God? Those 2 unreliable CC abilities make him an area-denial god? Don't kid yourself. But oh well, at least he can afk as a puddle in infested defenses so there's that.

I think you have never tried it before, because why would you when Vauban exists? After all, Vauban is meta; Hydroid is not, except for puddle AFKing.THAT is why having a firmly established meta is a bad thing for a game 

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, ShardsSuperior said:

I think you have never tried it before, because why would you when Vauban exists? After all, Vauban is meta; Hydroid is not, except for puddle AFKing.THAT is why having a firmly established meta is a bad thing for a game 

My usage with vauban is 0%. I don't need meta frames such as instablind prism mirage or E spam excalibur. But what i need are useful and reliable frames. Hell, i'd take atlas over hydroid any day. Dead enemies > Knocked down enemies. Don't confuse meta with usefulness. Hydroid can be fun cuz, who doesn't want to see enemis getting impaled by a "tentacle" and flinged around, right? But it doesn't mean he's a good frame. He's not played often not because of the "meta", but because he's lackluster.

[Rhekemi]

People dislike the meta, or (in your words) it's the enemy because the meta prescribes the most efficient warframes, weapons and modding of those warframes and weapons.

Yet Warframe (and many a game like it) is a game full of options, choice. There are 29 warframes (and soon to be 30 with Titania). Dozens and dozens, and dozens of primary, secondary, and melee weapons. At least half a dozen variety of sentinels and kubrows. We've even got a few landing craft styles.

There are overpowered and mandatory mods for all of the above, but there are also niche mods that can serve a purpose if you know how and when to use them (and what on).

People dislike the meta because it encourages you (especially when in a squad) not to use what you like, but what is prescribed as the best and most effective options.

Speaking for myself, I like to try everything at least once, and then return to what I like whether or not it is considered overpowered, meta, or ineffective. (And when it's ineffective, I bother as long as I think I can make it work with forma and the right mods. If it's trash, I don't bother more than leveling it. I'm not crazy. Then there are those times I get burned--literally. I chucked my first Ignis in the bin. Then buffed Scorches with their buffed Ignises not only set me on fire, they made me green with envy. Made up my mind to never sell a weapon again after that.)

Casual through and through, make my own choices, and rarely ever complain about the meta, though I admittedly find it often boring and don't like it. I don't complain or speak about it often or fight it because I understand it. It's effective.

Just as I expect to be allowed (really you have no say in what I do) to play how I want, I let those who stick to the meta alone.

Back when Mesa was queen of defense (before her rework), I was always annoyed by the damage role being set aside for Mesa while the rest of us practically sat in Frost's bubble (because back then, even when I tried to be active, actually play the game, the enemies were still dead before I could do anything). Didn't complain. It was what it was, and I wouldn't have gotten through many T4Ds way back when as easily or effectively without those Mesas. 

But they were still boring in what is supposed to be fun. 

It's a video game, you know? It's not a job. If you use a wrench to drive a nail on the job, you'll rightly be mocked, called aside, and asked what the hell you're doing.

But it's a video game--not a job--with a wealth of diverse choices, designed by the developers to be used. Not ignored. Yes, indeed, this calls into question the quality (or lack of it) of all those choices of 'frames and weapons and their ability to effectively perform under pressure and subdue the enemy (whose astronomical scaling and seeming insurmountably without meta and CC chese also needs addressing).

Pre-Mirage's recent rework, I'd survived a few sorties as cakewalks due to her Blind. One day I didn't care because I just wanted my Nezha part. Another day (just prior to her rework), I was a bit more annoyed during the Proxy event and asked the squad's Mirage why they were blinding so early (the first round had just started).

They made their case, the rest of the squad agreed. It was preferable in order to survive the mission with as little hassle from enemies as possible.

I said "Sure, but it's still boring." 

No one said it wasn't, or anything for that matter. We continued with the mission. It seemed, to me, that the Mirage blinded less often (but still often enough) and I felt I had a bit more fun, more of a challenge from the enemies. I never got the chance to ask if the Mirage was actually blinding less, though.

I still have the most miles on my good old Rhino and Excalibur. Excal was my starter, Rhino came a bit later. But as I progress, my gameplay percentages are spread over a number of different 'frames.

I'm not against cheese entirely: sometimes it's what I have to do, or my squad has to do, to succeed. But when and where I can I'm still enjoying the game because I try new things, different non-meta set ups. (One example would be I've never run Sonar Banshee. I got too used to playing her a different way: stealth, and impressive armor stripping.)

Overall, the game does need balancing across the board. We all know this, but I'd still say play how you want but beware: maybe that cool thing you are using will get noticed and buffed. Maybe that cool thing you are using will get nerfed or balanced.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Rhekemi

[taiiat]

15 hours ago, ShardsSuperior said:

Hydroid can spawn multiple Tempest Barrages

to keep even one location with Barrage.... barraged, you'll be casting it on the same spot a lot.
trying to keep several locations covered with it means you're going to be basically a turret that does nothing but cast Abilities :v

and i never said useless, you did. i said not practical.

[YasaiTsume]

4 hours ago, kleerr2 said:

 

Why punish those that abuse, along with those that do not?!

Here, ill even give an example: Why nerf Trinity's Bless DR, in general(its core/base function) instead of nerfing metabuilds, like self dmg, and/or quickthinking. When pre nerf 90%+ DR was quite risky(to say the least) to pull off, without self dmg/quickthinking...

Sorry if I misinterpreted!

The bottom line is that I suspect Devs do not like the idea of us being able to last 12 hours in survivals or endless missions as they designed a Scaling curve specifically meant to choke out all players by making them do lesser and lesser damage, being unable to cast their abilities by using nullifiers, or just outright killing them with empowered damage even on a Grineer Lancer. 

Because in any high level situation, it would be all too easy to reach 99% DR just by standing in front of enemies.

Link guarantees Trinity will not get 1 shot so she can safely stack her DR anyway even if Self damage was removed.

 

99% DR, or Invulerbility in the case of Valkyr, makes sure that players can stay well beyond they are welcome, and to be honest sitting in a Level 100 environment and just casting skills mindlessly is really just unhealthy for the game and the player. 

Personally I feel that Blessing should just heal and give 70% Damage reduction everytime instead Damage reduction based on heal %.

Spoiler

I feel Quick Thinking's stagger is pretty dangerous to players who are not fast in reflexes tho. 

 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

17 hours ago, MechaTails said:

I think all the meta players should leave the game for a year in protest. Better yet, leave forever, really show DE whats what.

be careful what you wish for...