Forma changes are a good thing

[Educated_Beast]

18 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

The mission I just ran says otherwise.

The only xp you get is from completing mini quests (5 slide kills, 30 kills, etc), capture points or target, spy mission xp, etc., or shared affinity from team mates.  

 

Do a solo mission, shoot nothing with weapon your leveling using only another, you will get nothing.  

[Troll_Logic]

5 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

The only xp you get is from completing mini quests (5 slide kills, 30 kills, etc), capture points or target, spy mission xp, etc., or shared affinity from team mates.  

 

Do a solo mission, shoot nothing with weapon your leveling using only another, you will get nothing.  

 

The mission I just ran says otherwise.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Troll_Logic

[Educated_Beast]

5 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

The mission I just ran says otherwise.

Dude, kill something with secondary, press P look at affinity.  Nothing goes to other weapon.  

 

Kill something with forma weapon, press P, look at affinity. 

 

These changes reduce grind slightly because you can use weapon to make kills, especially if multi forma already.  

 

It is a good change and an improvement. 

 

If you pick up orb from draak, chest, etc. It gets distributed to all weapons, mission xp same, you need to repeat your test.  Unless a bug was introduced this patch, your secondary has no effect on primary or melee and vice versa. It does give 50% to warframe, is that what your forma for test?

 

Otherwise, weapons have no effect on each other and this is a grind reducing improvement.  A very welcome change and very noticeable at mr21. 

 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

18 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Maybe.  But as I mentioned before, I did the exact same solo mission with the exact same equipment except I used blade storm to kill everything and didn't use a weapon.  I received maybe 5% of the affinity that I received before.  I didn't have to recapture the points as often as before because blade storm kills everything, but the hek affinity difference was dramatic.

You had fewer non-kill affinity events and possibly didn't satisfy Challenge requirements in that run compared to the one that you saw significantly more in (if the Sonicor run happened to be Pistol kills, and the Bladestorm run was Rifle kills, or Headshots, or.. most anything except 30-kills or Use Ult... it would explain a significant portion of any discrepancy.)

Edited June 3, 2016 by EDYinnit
grammar policing oneself

[ThePredicament]

Don't know guys, the name Troll_Logic is kinda telling on what's going on. And no, you don't get KILL XP for stowed weapons.

On topic, it's an absolutely GREAT change. Weaponry isn't absolutely useless even after formaing, which forced that weapon to either use leeching to level enough to get to viable builds or forcing players to take it to easier levels like Cambria or Apollodorus, then moved over to mid tier games. It just opens up more options for higher ranked players.

[Voltage]

I was so exited I formad Elytron. I eagerly tested my formad build into Caelus Uranus, and I came out at .... Level 5. The forma change is great, the Affintiy range crap 10 days ago doesn't work

[HarrodTasker]

53 minutes ago, TheLocalHentai said:

Don't know guys, the name Troll_Logic is kinda telling on what's going on.

I feel like we've passed the 'shame on you' vs 'shame on me' threshold as it relates to being mad at Troll_Logic for being generally trollish.  From here on out, you have have only yourselves to blame for taking the bait.

 

20 minutes ago, -CM-Voltage said:

I was so exited I formad Elytron. I eagerly tested my formad build into Caelus Uranus, and I came out at .... Level 5. The forma change is great, the Affintiy range crap 10 days ago doesn't work

Oh my GOD do I agree with you about the affinity cap malarkey for arcwing.  Its turned leveling AW stuff from a chore to unpaid work.  So far as I've noticed every one of the many threads dedicated to that subject are being ignored.  Caelus was designed with the old affinity range system in mind clearly.  But at least when you forma your Elytron you have 42 points.  42 exactly, because no one formas an Elytron without giving it a potato and no one even considers doing either of these things untill they hit rank 21 have just run out of things to rank up.  42 mod points on Elyrtron lets you discount your nukes to 45 energy and still have leftovers to get your basic shield/HP mods.  Since arcwings don't have auras strictly speaking (they use the effect of your frame's but don't get build points) the forma change is particularly nice there.

[arch111]

So this change is directed at very high mr-players then. For new players it makes no real difference anyway since they A) have few mods B) have no need to forma.

I think once Mastery is above 15 things are looking up. But I still think it takes too long to level things. 

I was excited for the MR=level change and was actually thinking about putting a few forma, and gave me a motivation to rank up my Mastery faster. 

I will be MR8, I have not really cared to rank up, but I see the great gap now to where I benefit from this change. 

XP is still slow as ever though.

[(PSN)adrian80]

The change is good, for getting more use out of newly built weapons.

But after using forma, setting the actual rank equal to mastery rank would be nice, too.

[Crewell]

I still prefer the instant level on polarized items. This new planned method still leaves a grind which has players farming Draco to bypass. Still this is an improvement. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 6/1/2016 at 10:52 PM, Troll_Logic said:

Ok, so now you've got 20 mod points.  Again, big deal.  Who in their right mind would go out to level a 20 mod point weapon with a 20 mod point weapon.  That's idiotic and incredibly slow.  I'm a MR21 so I'll have 42 points on most of my weapons.  Will I use the newly formaed weapon to level itself?  Oh hell no.  That's too slow.  I'll bring along my 6 or 7 formaed soma or boltor to level up my level 0 sonicor.

Using the newly formaed weapon to level itself up is slow.  Slow.  Slow.  Don't do it.

this ^ is a good analysis of the recent changes.   

imho, the change is going in the right direction, but does NOT significantly reduce the massive WF grind of multi formaed weapons/frames. 

[Troll_Logic]

 

On 6/2/2016 at 4:45 AM, EDYinnit said:

@Troll_Logic

Kills with a weapon distribute half of that affinity to the killer's Warframe and half to the exact weapon that the killer used. Kills with non-weapons distribute the full affinity to their Warframe.

 

On 6/2/2016 at 6:35 AM, Gilmaesh said:

you probably got xp for your hek with the mission challenge + affinity orb + capturing the tower.

 

On 6/2/2016 at 6:53 AM, LordCloud00 said:

Man, you seriously don't know that using a gun will give u only the exp on that gun and warframe? If you achieve exp on others weapons is because you get the shared affinity from others players which is splitted among the frame and the weapon arsenal.... study how affinity works instead of giving lecture to others.

 

On 6/2/2016 at 10:53 AM, Gilmaesh said:

Some challenges are worth less than other, maybe you didn't even completed one, you got less affinity orb, you had to capture tower multiple times.

There could be many reasons.

 

21 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Did you get a significant amount of affinity on the Hek?  Enough to reach Rank 30 in a reasonable amount of time?  Because usually my unused weapons generally only accrue a pittance compared to the one I'm actually using.

 

16 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

The only xp you get is from completing mini quests (5 slide kills, 30 kills, etc), capture points or target, spy mission xp, etc., or shared affinity from team mates.  

Do a solo mission, shoot nothing with weapon your leveling using only another, you will get nothing.  

I just did another solo mission on Draco with a the same weapons, didn't capture any points, and made sure not complete the reward.  No points for the Hek.  So I was wrong about affinity transfer between weapons.  I believe that if I say something in public and later find out I'm wrong, admit that in public as well.

However...

15 hours ago, HarrodTasker said:

I feel like we've passed the 'shame on you' vs 'shame on me' threshold as it relates to being mad at Troll_Logic for being generally trollish.  From here on out, you have have only yourselves to blame for taking the bait.

I still think I'm 100% right about my leveling strategy overall.  It is extremely slow to use a gimped weapon to level that same gimped weapon.  I still think the best way to level a weapon is to use a pimped out weapon with a group rather than willingly equip a gimped weapon, shed the other weapons to boost affinity for that one weapon, and make the team carry you while the gimped weapon does no damage.

[Necrius]

It's not a bad thing, but still could be better. Mastery rank now is a really bad "progress bar" imo, so tying formas to amount of guns and frames bought/farmed and draco'd isn't good.

[torint_man]

The new change is great for any weapons capable of killing most enemies in sedna in one shot. Put hush on the weapon or use loki with hushed invisibility, go to a sedna exterminate, and max your weapon in 3-4 games. I put 4 forma into my lex prime in an hour, and that would not have been possible before the change without resorting to draco.

[HarrodTasker]

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

I still think I'm 100% right about my leveling strategy overall.  It is extremely slow to use a gimped weapon to level that same gimped weapon.  I still think the best way to level a weapon is to use a pimped out weapon with a group rather than willingly equip a gimped weapon, shed the other weapons to boost affinity for that one weapon, and make the team carry you while the gimped weapon does no damage.

Let me talk about my experiences.  I'm MR 21, so things are better for me than for most people.  But I have a Vakor Marelok that I've been using as my go-to pistol for a while now.  Its got a potato but I never forma'ed it.  Post forma, it can take 3/4 of the mods I wanted with it.  It does a good job at killing things.  Sure my primary kills things faster generally, but I use the pistol sometimes.  My primary is the Vakor Hek which is better up close and the Vakor Marelok is better at longer range.  Even unranked now, the Marelok can get some kills in, instead of an unranked Marelok being a glorified spitwad launcher until it has enough mods for Hornet Strike etc.  I forma the thing, its at most of its maximum killing power, I forget about it entirely.  Later I see its rank 30, I give it its full mods.  I don't do anything special just to re-level the thing, it just happens eventually.

I can see how these changes don't matter worth a damn when you're rank like 5 or so.  But they're pretty neat-o at 21.  I might go so far as to call them the bees knees.  I'm not sure where the cutoff point is, I'd suggest somewhere around 12-14.

[Kinetos]

17 hours ago, -CM-Voltage said:

I was so exited I formad Elytron. I eagerly tested my formad build into Caelus Uranus, and I came out at .... Level 5. The forma change is great, the Affintiy range crap 10 days ago doesn't work

17 hours ago, HarrodTasker said:

-sniptron-

Oh my GOD do I agree with you about the affinity cap malarkey for arcwing.  Its turned leveling AW stuff from a chore to unpaid work. 

-sniptron-

Try Syrtis Mars. Easy to stay in share range, no riot shields or helions, loads of spawns. My fresh formaed Phaedra and new Prisma Veritux did fine there and I think got a good chunk of xp. 

[Troll_Logic]

4 minutes ago, HarrodTasker said:

I forma the thing, its at most of its maximum killing power, I forget about it entirely.  Later I see its rank 30, I give it its full mods.  I don't do anything special just to re-level the thing, it just happens eventually.

I can see how these changes don't matter worth a damn when you're rank like 5 or so.  But they're pretty neat-o at 21.  I might go so far as to call them the bees knees.  I'm not sure where the cutoff point is, I'd suggest somewhere around 12-14.

I'm an MR21 also.  That's how I level stuff as well.  I throw a forma on it and forget about it.  The concept of "forma, equip just that weapon, go to draco, and leech" is a whole new thing to me.  I've always run around leveling at least one thing and many times two.  I hate wasting exp and I've always considered running around with 6 maxed items (including sentinel) to be a waste.  Well, unless it's a high level mission where everyone is relying on everyone else and things can turn fast.

I just took the D polarity of the hek and while it was nice to put 4 or 5 mods on it, I wouldn't dream about taking just it to a mission.  I'd be embarrassed to go to some mission and have a tenth of the kills of a next lowest player's kill count.  I'm not saying you do, just in general.

12-14 sound about right.  That's a high damage mod with corrosion on a potatoed weapon.

[PowerofTwo]

On 6/2/2016 at 6:17 AM, AM-Bunny said:

I'm not a doom-sayer that preaches 'DE loves grind' and all that... but I do find it somewhat ironic.

This was the first change in... a while... that would genuinely reduce grind, and they went and changed it at the last minute so that it preserved the same amount of grind.

It's better than nothing, but it's a missed opportunity in my book.

yeah, this... and this is just the latest example, there's so many small tweaks that could be done to remove grind even BEFORE fixing the satanic void drop tables but neah we need to sell boosters.

It's actualy kinda fascinating, *cough* lately *cough* DE devs have come across as kinda.... clueless (yeah alot of 18.13 got reverted or improved but that was after the largest forum activity spike in their history) but i'm now fermly convinced that they're fantastic designers just that most of their ideas can't be implemented / have to be dumbed down in the name of the allmighty dollar... (or whatever, mapple leaf :P)

Like remeber the constant argument that "we can't implement an AH because plat farmers" , omiting the fact that ALOT of people are sitting on a fair amount of plat and just don't want to deal with SpamChat...? and that third party sites would sell plat alot cheaper than they try to sell it...? (bout 75% cheaper proly wink wink)

TLDR: Change does absolutly diddly-squat.

Ow and PS: Yes TECHNICALY speaking this change means you can use rank 0 weapons and just level them on the starchart... problem is the starchart is sadly pointless atm.. you either do it for spy's in wich case you arn't realy killing alot of things, Sab nitain "farming" where agian, not much killing, Triton and Hieracon wich might as well be considered "void" maps at this point since you're hitting 100+ enemies on those maps regurarly i wouldn't want to bring a spit-chucker along aaaaand well.... Draco. Basicaly this change makes pub draco slightly better because instead of killing stuff with your frame you can kill stuff with your weapons now for slightly more affinity.... but it's still Draco so, eh

Edited June 3, 2016 by PowerofTwo

[-N7-Leonhart]

3 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

 

However...

I still think I'm 100% right about my leveling strategy overall.  It is extremely slow to use a gimped weapon to level that same gimped weapon.  I still think the best way to level a weapon is to use a pimped out weapon with a group rather than willingly equip a gimped weapon, shed the other weapons to boost affinity for that one weapon, and make the team carry you while the gimped weapon does no damage.

Only works if you leech a lot from squadmates.

Think of it like this: I have 42 points on a weapon, and maybe even some polarities. Therefore, that weapon will have 75-85% of it's damage potential, instead of 5%, like unranked. I can kill stuff with that weapon, level it faster and not need to leech from other players. That weapon is no longer passive luggage, as it was before. You are saying this is basically no improvement, but as someone that has like 60 weapons and 10 frames with full forma, I can definitely say this change is 100% positive. My only regret is that it came far too late for me.

[Troll_Logic]

58 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Only works if you leech a lot from squadmates.

Think of it like this: I have 42 points on a weapon, and maybe even some polarities. Therefore, that weapon will have 75-85% of it's damage potential, instead of 5%, like unranked. I can kill stuff with that weapon, level it faster and not need to leech from other players. 

You're not thinking of the correct definition of leeching.

"Leeching" is playing a game where you (I don't me you directly, just a figure of speech) do very little in the mission yet receive a highly disportionate of reward.  For example, going into Draco with only a newly formaed weapon and killing 60 enemies while everyone else kills 500 each.  That is leeching.

Leeching isn't taking a newly formaed weapon along with other weapons and killing 500 enemies while everyone else kills 500 each as well.

Leeching is about the proportion of reward received compared to the amount of work produced.

Sharing affinity in and of itself isn't leeching.  It's part of the game.

1 hour ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Think of it like this: I have 42 points on a weapon, and maybe even some polarities. Therefore, that weapon will have 75-85% of it's damage potential, instead of 5%, like unranked. I can kill stuff with that weapon, level it faster, and not need to leech from other players. 

No way that weapon is up to 75%-85% of it's potential.  Maybe 50%.  Maybe.  Remember that it isn't just damage output.  It depends on the enemy level as well.  For example, let's say you've got a weapon that does 500 damage with each shot (just to make up numbers).  You take it to a level 5 mission and the enemies have an average of 300 health.  That weapon is effectively at 100% damage.  Now, you take that same weapon to a level 30 mission where the enemies have 800 health.  Now it takes at least two shots to kill each enemy. 

You can use that weapon to level sure, but you will never do as much damage as you would with by carrying another fully pimped out weapon and using that for damage.  Since you are doing less damage than you can be, the other players have to do more.  I'd argue that since you are purposefully doing less damage and requiring the other players do more, you are leeching from them.

1 hour ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

You are saying this is basically no improvement, but as someone that has like 60 weapons and 10 frames with full forma, I can definitely say this change is 100% positive. My only regret is that it came far too late for me.

I say that it's basically no improvement because while it increases the damage a player can do, it is still much less damage than a player should be doing.

Think of it this way.  You and three other players have to push 400 pounds up a hill.  That means each person should be pushing equally 100 pounds.  Taking only a gimped weapon means you're pushing 20 pounds while the other three players have to push the other 380 pounds.  This change is the equivalent of the player now pushing 50 pounds instead of 20 pounds and the other players pushing 350 pounds.  On the surface it sounds better, but in practice the player is still gimping himself and requiring the other players to do more.

Taking a gimped weapon to level that gimped weapon is a bad idea. 

[Soulden]

48 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Now, you take that same weapon to a level 30 mission where the enemies have 800 health.  Now it takes at least two shots to kill each enemy. 

lol

Take that weapon before changes (no Serration) to a level 30 mission.....that was much, much, much, much slower.

Sorry, but that was a good laugh. Thank you!

On Topic:

Loving the changes. It doesn't translate well on frames (health/energy/abilities stats based off levels), but works wonderfully for weapons.

[-N7-Leonhart]

57 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

 

No way that weapon is up to 75%-85% of it's potential.  Maybe 50%.  Maybe.  Remember that it isn't just damage output.  It depends on the enemy level as well.  For example, let's say you've got a weapon that does 500 damage with each shot (just to make up numbers).  You take it to a level 5 mission and the enemies have an average of 300 health.  That weapon is effectively at 100% damage.  Now, you take that same weapon to a level 30 mission where the enemies have 800 health.  Now it takes at least two shots to kill each enemy. 

It's definitely 75-85%, depending on what polarities are there. That is around 6 mods. The first few mods are most of the damage, after all. The final mods always get the shot end of the stick, due to being additive rather than multiplicative, like the first ones.

[xmegarockx]

i would love more if it give my 21 extra points for my builds since im mr21 than let my weapon have 21 point unranked. so at the end ending with rank 30 +  21point for my mastery so it goes to 60 with catalyzer 21 ranks remain the same so that mean60+21 that would be great.

[-N7-Leonhart]

2 minutes ago, xmegarockx said:

i would love more if it give my 21 extra points for my builds since im mr21 than let my weapon have 21 point unranked. so at the end ending with rank 30 +  21point for my mastery so it goes to 60 with catalyzer 21 ranks remain the same so that mean60+21 that would be great.

No way. It's not like this change makes forma obsolete. You still have 30 max, 60 with catalyst. This game hasn't become total easy mode yet. 

[xmegarockx]

40 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

No way. It's not like this change makes forma obsolete. You still have 30 max, 60 with catalyst. This game hasn't become total easy mode yet. 

u gona need less forma to max out and no every one is mr21.