Overpowered players

[IRVoidGuru]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

Hilarious.

"I don't agree with you so I'm going to label you with this thing that's inherently negative and leaves no room for you to explain your, actual, nuanced opinion, in my head."

If you don't agree, state why. Don't label people that you don't agree with. You'll end up like that kid who ran around calling the people who called for the Tonkor to get rebalanced the, "nerf brigade," whilst he ignored 50 pages of tests, arguments, and statistical evidence that it was the actual outlier.

i think the label implied the reason "why " he did not like these changes , for the exact same reasons i didnt. These changes Do not imply skill, are not fun for me as an experienced player. and would ultimately drive people from this game . just so OP can have his idea of "in game skill" as for your tonkor comment the weapon is perfectly fun , and fine as it is , "its an outlier" isn't an argument weapons get to have Unique aspects to them even if they are classed in a category with limitations.

 

in short if your argument on this is that its wrong cuz its a launcher that dont self damage then, well yea get over it its SPECIAL!. are weapons not aloud to have special properties for extended periods of time? cuz if your answer is no then talons should have been made sooner castanas had special features , azima is a auto pistol its secondary fire is an "outlier" redeemer is the only melee that can fire "outlier", mutalist cernos is a bow that makes gas clouds "outlier" the AT ogris is a rocket launcher that can home "outlier" , Mutalist Quanta has many many Unique features compared to EVERY other Quanta. the "outlier"argument isnt an argument at all considering how many others exist , players problem with it is its damage output but farther math shows a higher burst DPS on other weapons anyway , so just killed the damage and outlier arguments . wait ! that's right it leaves nothing left to say about why it needs a nerf. players blow up your kills? the ultimate answers await you , A kill faster , B don't play with players that use it all the time!.

All players in this game would have a lot more fun if they learned its an MMO and their fun doesn't always = fun for someone else. does that mean we need to make nerf posts? no it means you need to get over it and don't play with it. just like OP with this post. he don't like efficiency so lets ask for it to be ruined for EVERY Player ? imo the answer should have been no.

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

We went 4 hours in apollodorus until one of our teammates (ash prime nonetheless) fell asleep at the controller, so we extracted.

wait a sec you wanna argue the game takes skill and in your example someone actually fell asleep while playing a mission? ... something is off.

imho choosing a loadout is not skillfull gameplay. knowing what to pick and what to do / thinking of a strategy, that's usually only when a game STARTS. the actual execution should take some skill, non? and serious aiming / parcour are rarely even needed at all in warframe's meta atm.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[IRVoidGuru]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Dear @Fuzzy-Bunny, don ´t forget Frames and Arsenal are Overpowered thx to us, We are those, who are puting Potatoes and Formas, maxing Mods, making best builds focused only for 1-2 abillities, while Frames have 4. Why? Because it ´s a part of this game and it ´s normal human property to be the best. If u r not agree, just  don ´t do that and play with base stats, without any upgrade, nobody will punish u for that.

i agree with this , you dont like elements adding damage? use lower lvl mods . dont like efficiency as a stat? sweet dont use it . but dont ruin it for the rest of us by asking for it to get screwed over

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

Hilarious.

"I don't agree with you so I'm going to label you with this thing that's inherently negative and leaves no room for you to explain your, actual, nuanced opinion, in my head."

If you don't agree, state why. Don't label people that you don't agree with. You'll end up like that kid who ran around calling the people who called for the Tonkor to get rebalanced the, "nerf brigade," whilst he ignored 50 pages of tests, arguments, and statistical evidence that it was the actual outlier.

it seems hard to fathom for some people that appropriately challenging gameplay IS fun to others, as opposed to pressing a single button a whole mission long...

Edited July 4, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Av3rage]

My goodness this is long, only read so far as 11 and my brain starts to hurt, will continue tom if this is still a hot topic (i like reading don't judge pls). Since this is a hot topic I think DE will surely look at this discussion and i hope you will read this little comment of mine.

To DE: I choose to play this game because it offers something unique for me. Its a 3rd person shooter, there is melee im surprise about it but I liked it as well, my beginning is challenging and then I saw others who are like whoa! they just mow em down like nothing and im like I wanna be like that! after playing lots of hours everyday I get to that point and im loving it. This is what warframe for me maybe for others too but im not their spoke person so well you get it. Now this long discussion points out a lot of things and the way I see it if all of this gets in the game it will NOT BE WARFRAME anymore.. Changes will come for the good and the bad but please keep in mind that your game has something unique and stay on that path. I like it as 3rd person, I like melee, I like parkour even tho im not good in it, I like being overpowered and if I want challenge I go to endless and do sorties ( its challenging for me dont judge ) or equip weak stuff. I like that most of the stuff are achievable in a variety of ways. I really love it that im not being forced to group up to achieve something. Only warframe can give me this. No other games have given me this much so to whatever changes buff or nerf that will come I hope warframe will still be warframe not only in title but the essence of it.

[IRVoidGuru]

7 minutes ago, Av3rage said:

My goodness this is long, only read so far as 11 and my brain starts to hurt, will continue tom if this is still a hot topic (i like reading don't judge pls). Since this is a hot topic I think DE will surely look at this discussion and i hope you will read this little comment of mine.

To DE: I choose to play this game because it offers something unique for me. Its a 3rd person shooter, there is melee im surprise about it but I liked it as well, my beginning is challenging and then I saw others who are like whoa! they just mow em down like nothing and im like I wanna be like that! after playing lots of hours everyday I get to that point and im loving it. This is what warframe for me maybe for others too but im not their spoke person so well you get it. Now this long discussion points out a lot of things and the way I see it if all of this gets in the game it will NOT BE WARFRAME anymore.. Changes will come for the good and the bad but please keep in mind that your game has something unique and stay on that path. I like it as 3rd person, I like melee, I like parkour even tho im not good in it, I like being overpowered and if I want challenge I go to endless and do sorties ( its challenging for me dont judge ) or equip weak stuff. I like that most of the stuff are achievable in a variety of ways. I really love it that im not being forced to group up to achieve something. Only warframe can give me this. No other games have given me this much so to whatever changes buff or nerf that will come I hope warframe will still be warframe not only in title but the essence of it.

i had to re-read this to fully understand it but yes ! well said my friend well said !

[(PSN)Crixus044]

10 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

wait a sec you wanna argue the game takes skill and in your example someone actually fell asleep while playing a mission? ... something is off.

imho choosing a loadout is not skillfull gameplay. knowing what to pick and what to do / thinking of a strategy, that's usually only when a game STARTS. the actual execution should take some skill, non? and serious aiming / parcour are rarely even needed at all in warframe's meta atm.

Nothing off. The ash prime really wasn't doing anything except teleporting to life supports and blade storming enemies for arcane trickery to activate. Blade storm wasn't even killing enemies at all. Plus, it was 5 in the morning. He was tired lol, 

Choosing a loadout can be skillful. I've seen many people you don't know how to build their warframes or maximize their skills. It is a skill to understand how these warframes work. Then applying these skills into actual gameplay is also a skill. It comes easy to a lot of people because either they watch YouTube channels or just listen to the community. 

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

On 4. 7. 2016 at 1:05 PM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Having higher level enemies in higher level missions effectively does reduce damage or at least effectiveness. If you reduce player damage/effectiveness, it may take f.e. 5 bullets to kill an enemy in a certain mission. How about instead of reducing the damage, you increase the enemy level, so that it will still take 5 bullets/hits to kill? Why nerf players, when you can just raise enemy level to match our power? This will make players feel more accomplished and will fix a whole lot of problems with players feeling overpowered. The only mission designed for maxed out warframes are raids. Bringing a warframe that's built for raids into a regular mission trivializes it. Highest level star chart enemies is around 45. Raid enemies are almost double that and scale up to 100. That margin is much too large. Warframes that are still unnecessarily more powerful will be balanced accordingly, but nerfing players is not the answer.

So, you don't think making enemies do 20% or more of warframe's EHP per shot and turning them into bullet sponges makes the game binary and unforgiving? I can't comprehend how you can't see the point that scaling back warframe damage would allow us to also scale enemies back. Level has 0 effect on enemy behavior, so once you've encountered all the enemies in the game, all that's left is to: scale their stats, introduce eximuses in ever increasing numbers and force limitations on the players.

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A maxed out tenno should not have to wait 45 minutes to be challenged from the same enemies they've been fighting from when they were still ranking up. Once you max out your gear, you should be ready to hit level 60-70 enemies from the start. .... I was killing enemies up to level 200 easily, but surviving was getting harder and I really didn't want to have to struggle since I already had a headache

Yes, that's one of the reasons why I proposed my changes. The fact that players can keep going at all beyond 1 hour is thanks to ability spam and broken energy economy. It's not like enemies become anymore challenging after 45min, they're just able to take more than a few hits and dish out ever increasing damage.

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What I concluded from  the mission was that even though a warframe may not be on the same level as the enemies you are fighting, success is still possible, but up to a certain point. I also learned that every warframe has a give and take. Also, for people who don't want to wait an hour for enemies to get to there level, having missions that start at higher levels is most logical, and thus the reason why I conclude that higher level mission is a necessity over nerfing players to match the enemy levels present.

My problem with this is the fact that I don't believe that our enemies are ever supposed to be on our level. Grineer are degenerating cyborg clones, Corpus are indoctrinated slaves and mass produced robots and infested are mindless monsters. None of them are supposed to have mysterious void powers (eximuses) or have the ability to block warframe powers. Our enemies should never have insane EHP above 500k.

Sadly, the fact our enemies can do all those things is merely a response to players. There would be no nucifiers and eximuses if there was no ability spam and there would be no enemies with EHP beyond 100k if we didn't have weapons that can easily kill them.

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Knowing how to build your warframe and understanding the mechanics of warframes to the point where you can use synergies is a skill. It is amongst the many skills in game i.e. accuracy, parkour, making builds, and teamwork. Being extremely skilled at building warframes for your playstyle and using your knowledge to synergize with other teammates lets you do crazy stuff like using hydroid undertow to rack up enemies while a nova charges her antimatter drop for a mass nuke. This technique worked with my team for enemies in the thousands of levels. We went 4 hours in apollodorus until one of our teammates (ash prime nonetheless) fell asleep at the controller, so we extracted. Being skilled in warframe isn't just about the builds, but getting the right build for a team or for solo is essential to progress  Also being able to use parkour to your advantage and being accurate with your weapons and melee is essential to survival in missions where the enemy out-classes you. Sitting in a bubble spamming skills is a skill in ultimate teamwork. It may not be fun, but it works. If you want to go that route, go ahead. I'm gonna be having fun with my Wukong while my friends use Banished Blades techniques.to be good.

What you fail or refuse to acknowledge is that as your mods level up and you acquire powerful weapons all the "real" skills lose meaning due to ability spam. There is no need to use cover or roll for 75% DR because the enemies are blind, slowed and disarmed. As players get more "skilled" in your definition, they only need to focus on ability synergy and spamming. The true master of warframe has only one thing to fear, falling asleep due to boredom. And no, sitting in a bubble spamming skills is not "ultimate" teamwork. It's the trivialization of both warframes and our enemies. Our warframes get specialized into one trick ponies that can't survive outside the bubble for long and our enemies are turned into resource/ affinity farm or even worse mere road bumps that you have to cross to get to that C rotation.

On 4. 7. 2016 at 3:26 PM, LocoWithGun said:

For the last time: Serration (and other base damage mods) are ACCOUNT LEVEL damage progression. All the suggestions say the same thing "Just make damage level with the weapons!". Oh yeah? So by the time I level my MK1-Braton I have the base damage progression of completing the starchart and beyond.

You obviously didn't even read the OP. I never suggested damage level with weapons and no, Serration is NOT account level progression. The same way MR is merely fodder leveling. Unless of course you suggest that players are not supposed to level serration and equivalents until they reach end game, which would be just as silly.

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Make weapons level slower? So we would have to completely rework the current mod system, because it really doesn't take into account you having to level one weapon for hours, with or without damage mods.

It takes about 20 min on draco to fully level a weapon.

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So can the remove base damage mods cultists now provide a real thought-out alternative of how exactly you intend to keep this account progression without simply offloading it onto the equipment? Give me a call when you do please. And don't try to lock it into mastery rank, that would be incredibly dumb solution.

There is little to no account progression in the warframe. MR and the content it locks is merely about leveling weapons you'll never use again and mods can easily be bought for plat or manually leveled. Warframes can be easily leveled and once they are formad and have all the mods you are pretty much done. 

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And if you disagree with account damage progression in general, well then just agree to disagree.

There is NO ACCOUNT DAMAGE PROGRESSION. Only mods and MR locked weapons allow you to get super strong. It's got nothing to do with completing hard content and everything to do with farming or paying your way. Even arcanes can be simply bought.

21 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Dear @Fuzzy-Bunny, don ´t forget Frames and Arsenal are Overpowered thx to us, We are those, who are puting Potatoes and Formas, maxing Mods, making best builds focused only for 1-2 abillities, while Frames have 4. Why? Because it ´s a part of this game and it ´s normal human property to be the best. If u r not agree, just  don ´t do that and play with base stats, without any upgrade, nobody will punish u for that.

No, it's not a "part of this game". Remember when we had to actually equip abilities? People did just as you have said and made one trick ponies and DE responded that warframes should use all skills and baked the skills directly into warframes.

If you don't agree with my reworks you can always go to mercury to feel like a god and "do your best". It's part of the game after all and nobody will punish you...

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[Kettunen]

16 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

i think the label implied the reason "why " he did not like these changes , for the exact same reasons i didnt. These changes Do not imply skill, are not fun for me as an experienced player. and would ultimately drive people from this game . just so OP can have his idea of "in game skill" as for your tonkor comment the weapon is perfectly fun , and fine as it is , "its an outlier" isn't an argument weapons get to have Unique aspects to them even if they are classed in a category with limitations.

 

in short if your argument on this is that its wrong cuz its a launcher that dont self damage then, well yea get over it its SPECIAL!. are weapons not aloud to have special properties for extended periods of time? cuz if your answer is no then talons should have been made sooner castanas had special features , azima is a auto pistol its secondary fire is an "outlier" redeemer is the only melee that can fire "outlier", mutalist cernos is a bow that makes gas clouds "outlier" the AT ogris is a rocket launcher that can home "outlier" , Mutalist Quanta has many many Unique features compared to EVERY other Quanta. the "outlier"argument isnt an argument at all considering how many others exist , players problem with it is its damage output but farther math shows a higher burst DPS on other weapons anyway , so just killed the damage and outlier arguments . wait ! that's right it leaves nothing left to say about why it needs a nerf. players blow up your kills? the ultimate answers await you , A kill faster , B don't play with players that use it all the time!.

All players in this game would have a lot more fun if they learned its an MMO and their fun doesn't always = fun for someone else. does that mean we need to make nerf posts? no it means you need to get over it and don't play with it. just like OP with this post. he don't like efficiency so lets ask for it to be ruined for EVERY Player ? imo the answer should have been no.

 

First of all you might want to check on Wikipedia what an outlier is. Hint : it doesn't mean an unique feature. The rest of your "arguments" have been answered and debunked in great detail in the tonkor thread so maybe check on it after that maybe?

[(PSN)Onder6099]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

No, it's not a "part of this game". Remember when we had to actually equip abilities? People did just as you have said and made one trick ponies and DE responded that warframes should use all skills and baked the skills directly into warframes.

If you don't agree with my reworks you can always go to mercury to feel like a god and "do your best". It's part of the game after all and nobody will punish you...

 

Look, dude, this game is giving us an absolute freedom and its only up to us how the arsenal will look like. A Veteran mark is not allow u to dictate what is or will be best for us, its only up to DE.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

No, it's not a "part of this game".

How can it not be a "part of the game" when it is"in the game"?  Your argument for this doesn't make much sense.  That would be like saying Ivara isn't part of the game even though she's in the game.  You can't just say things that are actually in the game aren't a part of it.  That makes no sense on any level. 

 

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

If you don't agree with my reworks you can always go to mercury to feel like a god and "do your best".

This statement is implying that your suggestions WILL be put into the game.  That's arrogance to a high level when you aren't part of the dev team. 

Just letting you know of some fallacies of your counter arguments.  It's making you look more egotistical than you are intending.  I hope that isn't your intention. 

[-Sora-]

After reading through about 13 pages of this, I finally got a grasp of what the heck I want to know about.

 

I'm not intending to start an argument or anything of the sort. Just trying to see how some things fit together in the entire aspect of the player base being overpowered and the proposed adjustments that several people have mentioned.

 

First and foremost, this has been a nagging issue i noticed throughout the thread as people mention the constant reworks of both players and enemies. How will this make the game more enjoyable for me as a player? I don't see much mention of that, and I really don't want to dig through an extra 20 pages of crap to find out. The way I see it is, The proposed changes do revolve around reducing the general speed of the game. Proposed ideas like headshots being critical hits only sound good on paper, However, in execution, it would not work out in the fast paced TPS-RPG game that we have at the moment. As a player, you don't always have time to slow down and go for headshots as you can get torn up like a paper napkin in higher level missions. But that's not necessarily a bad thing is it? It keeps a certain edge on the player, especially in 90m+ survival matches. Smacking around ability use (Specifically, damage and crowd control) seems like it's a knee jerk reaction to the lowest common denominator (Past level 30, damage based abilities become pointless and CC becomes more important. Therefore, I min-max)  I worked hard to grind out corrupted mods in order to min-max my builds. Should I be punished for my work?

 

Second of all,  I want to bring up the issue I have with the game right now. And that is, there is no reason for me as a player to even care about half of the content I get now. It's either a hopeless grind which I cannot keep up with due to work and life, It's too long of a wait for an hour of new content that will be 'coming soon™' or "will be implemented at a later date." Update 18 came out in December. And absolutely nothing has been done with anything it added except for minor tweaks to the focus system, and more teasing about what is coming soon. Odds are, the same thing will happen once the bulk of U19 drops. Tying this back into the point above, It's clear DE wants some kind of progression to be occurring with the introduction of focus. But the lack of attention to it demonstrates they don't know where it should go as shown by little being done to it for a little over half a year. Focus shows that power creep is coming. But I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing for the game.

 

However, in it's current state, It's S#&$e. 

 

Power creep is a part of MMOs as demonstrated through the various expansion packs released for games such as WoW, Everquest, Guild Wars, you name it. They up the numbers but also up the players. As well as adding new environments meant to last for a decent amount of the player's time. Be it through having to mine new resources, skin new animals, cook new foods, obtain new gear. This is where Warframe is having an identity crisis of sorts. The players get stronger, However, there is little done to actually move them along the rails. Instead, we get stuck at the current top of the game. We have no reason to keep playing except for grinding for what have you. And whenever a major content update drops, It lasts for a couple hours, then I go back to running around cheesing through mooks because I have nothing else to do. And it does get boring because I'm at the top. And I cannot go anywhere else because I'm at the point which every serious player will hit in an MMO. I've maxed out my character and therefore, am stuck until new content gets added. As i grind longer and longer doing more of the same with the same boundaries set, My enjoyment of the game wavers. Thats the issue right now. This leads to high leveled players getting shoved together with lower players due to there being nowhere for them to actually go. It's like all the high level players in WoW being stuck in Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms and having to compete with lower level characters for rewards. 

 

It leads to issues exactly like this. Lower level characters complain about higher level characters competing with them. High level players have nowhere to go, therefore they tell lower level players to sod off. And it leads to this mess of a thread.

 

What would my solution be? 

 

Do a WoW sized expansion for the next major update. Ala Burning Crusade or WOTLK

 

What does this mean for the players? 

New resources need to be farmed. New Mods need to be obtained, New Weapons need to be built, and new abilities need to be made. 

 

Instead of having Serration, Now players get SerrationΩ. And new content needs to be based around this. Therefore players always have something to work towards. 

 

Does this negate player effort?

Slightly, However, all new loot should be allowed to carry over to lower level content. But the players at the high spectrum of the game shouldn't have to return to lower level content as they have no use for it. Besides, The end result is more power to the player in the end. Is that not a bad thing? It rewards progression and doesn't completely punish the player for their work as they can simply fuse the old R10 mod into the stronger R10 mod

 

And content such as the void should have higher end content Ala Tower1Ω 2Ω 3Ω with double the amount of loot drops in order to reward players for reaching such a high level. 

 

That's my solution to the issue. It's not nerf everything in order to make it a more even playing ground. But instead add in more progression to further the lifetime of the game itself for players at their endgame. 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by -Sora-
clarification

[DatDarkOne]

10 minutes ago, -Sora- said:

It's not nerf everything in order to make it a more even playing ground. But instead add in more progression to further the lifetime of the game itself for players at their endgame

(PS4)Crixus044 offered a similar suggestion.  I agree that it's a much better solution than the one OP is suggesting.  Mostly because it's not overly complicated to implement into the game. 

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Look, dude, this game is giving us an absolute freedom and its only up to us how the arsenal will look like. A Veteran mark is not allow u to dictate what is or will be best for us, its only up to DE.

Why are you taking this as anything more than a debate about a suggestion? DE will obviously do what they want no matter what I write here...

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

How can it not be a "part of the game" when it is"in the game"?  Your argument for this doesn't make much sense.  That would be like saying Ivara isn't part of the game even though she's in the game.  You can't just say things that are actually in the game aren't a part of it.  That makes no sense on any level. 

I even pointed out how. I remember the time before abilities were innate features of the warframes and you had to equip them to use them. People ended up not equipping some abilities to save mod slots for more mini-maxing, so DE released a statement that all warframe abilities were meant to be used not just the one you've mini maxed your warframe for. Did this solve the issue of mini-maxing? No, people still make one trick pony crippled builds like RJ, but DE expressed their opinion that warframes are not supposed to be just one ability spam machines.

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This statement is implying that your suggestions WILL be put into the game.  That's arrogance to a high level when you aren't part of the dev team. 

Just letting you know of some fallacies of your counter arguments.  It's making you look more egotistical than you are intending.  I hope that isn't your intention. 

Care to quote me on that?

2 hours ago, -Sora- said:

First and foremost, this has been a nagging issue i noticed throughout the thread as people mention the constant reworks of both players and enemies. How will this make the game more enjoyable for me as a player? I don't see much mention of that, and I really don't want to dig through an extra 20 pages of crap to find out. The way I see it is, The proposed changes do revolve around reducing the general speed of the game. Proposed ideas like headshots being critical hits only sound good on paper, However, in execution, it would not work out in the fast paced TPS-RPG game that we have at the moment. As a player, you don't always have time to slow down and go for headshots as you can get torn up like a paper napkin in higher level missions. But that's not necessarily a bad thing is it? It keeps a certain edge on the player, especially in 90m+ survival matches. Smacking around ability use (Specifically, damage and crowd control) seems like it's a knee jerk reaction to the lowest common denominator (Past level 30, damage based abilities become pointless and CC becomes more important. Therefore, I min-max)  I worked hard to grind out corrupted mods in order to min-max my builds. Should I be punished for my work?

Remember the tension as you advanced through the star chart as a newbie and couldn't solve every situation with an ability spam? Was that enjoyable or was that frustrating? I suppose I must differ from some people, but I actually enjoy a game more if I have to put in a bit of effort to get my reward. The way I see it, gameplay should be a reward in itself and resources and drops a cherry on top. Sitting in a bubble spamming abilities is not fun for me and neither is getting swarmed with eximuses in eximus sorties. Where's the challenge when an armor faction enemies die in one hit? Where's the tension when enemies are always disarmed and slowed? What are the incentives to master parkour beyond getting to extraction quicker?

So what am I supposed to grind for? It's not for the gameplay, so what else? Resources, drops? For what? So I can get stronger? Why would I do that when I can already kill pretty much everything in one hit? So I can play even longer cheese fest survivals? No thanks!

As for the pace, It needs to slow down. Remember the last time you played assassination sortie? Did your team rush to the boss? How is that even possible? Aren't level 100 enemies supposed to stop you? They don't and all non endless and non spy missions have simply devolved into a race to the finish because the actual gameplay has become an afterthought and players only play for the drops.

Should you be punished for your work? Well, if your work so far has basically allowed you to bypass game mechanics and cheese the whole game and then that cheese is taken away, you could see that as punishment, but I'd see it as long overdue game balancing.

2 hours ago, -Sora- said:

Power creep is a part of MMOs as demonstrated through the various expansion packs released for games such as WoW, Everquest, Guild Wars, you name it. They up the numbers but also up the players. As well as adding new environments meant to last for a decent amount of the player's time. Be it through having to mine new resources, skin new animals, cook new foods, obtain new gear. This is where Warframe is having an identity crisis of sorts. The players get stronger, However, there is little done to actually move them along the rails. Instead, we get stuck at the current top of the game. We have no reason to keep playing except for grinding for what have you. And whenever a major content update drops, It lasts for a couple hours, then I go back to running around cheesing through mooks because I have nothing else to do. And it does get boring because I'm at the top. And I cannot go anywhere else because I'm at the point which every serious player will hit in an MMO. I've maxed out my character and therefore, am stuck until new content gets added. As i grind longer and longer doing more of the same with the same boundaries set, My enjoyment of the game wavers. Thats the issue right now. This leads to high leveled players getting shoved together with lower players due to there being nowhere for them to actually go. It's like all the high level players in WoW being stuck in Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms and having to compete with lower level characters for rewards. 

Yeah, that's part of the problem, but the way I see it, warframe is way too easy to complete. I see it as a huge wasted potential. Instead of actually forcing a player to get better at the game, warframes only ties it's progression to grind and flat gain mods. This means that once you finish leveling core mods, you're stuck to long endless missions, sortie,ect if you want any challenge. There is little to no incentive to aim for headshots when your guns will quickly kill either way. Weapon mods mostly just provide flat damage bonuses and offer no alternative gameplay, this in turn reduces replayability.

As for new harder content, can you provide an example of an enemy that's supposed to challenge us without being cheesy? What's the point of adding new content when the players can burn through it in a few hours? Grind walls aren't a solution either as it just frustrates players.

2 hours ago, -Sora- said:

Instead of having Serration, Now players get SerrationΩ. And new content needs to be based around this. Therefore players always have something to work towards. 

Can you imagine the consequences of such a thing? This would make our current content even more irrelevant.

 

[Kettunen]

1 hour ago, -Sora- said:

I'm not intending to start an argument or anything of the sort. Just trying to see how some things fit together in the entire aspect of the player base being overpowered and the proposed adjustments that several people have mentioned.

-snip-

Designwise WF is a pretty interesting creature. Many of its features are familiar from other games but unfortunately they're also working heavily against each other when player has progressed far enough. This is probably one of the reasons why it's such a pain to discuss in the forums since people value each facet and feature differently, thus having vastly different ideas on how the game should be developed. Few however manage to address all the problems.

You asked if you should be punished for spending a considerable amount of time getting all the necessary rare mods and formaeing frames/weapons. Preferrably not but as you yourself pointed out on two separate occasions: many things fall out of viability the higher the level gets and most low level content becomes a grind. Essentially making a sizable portion of developed content go to waste which we might argue is not worth to throw away for the sake of few mods.

Then you suggested something similar to NG+ and NG++ etc if I understand correctly. On paper it seems pretty solid since it would negate many problems in the game currently such as low level grind, MR21s steamrolling everything while MR1s and MR2s are getting to do nothing and map content getting phased out after acquiring sufficient power. However the way scaling works (and is justifiably criticised) would eventually make the game rather unpleasant to play. In addition WF doesn't have much going for itself in the progress department. Most loot is worthless and players have vast stockpiles of rare resources. Producing content for different difficulties would likely raise costs or spread the updates pretty thin for everyone.

Finally, it's pretty hard to compare WF with WoW or GW. I don't even think if power creep is the right word for them since it's part of their planned progression you can do with many toons over weeks to reach the endgame. WF on the other hand is single account, one character and most content can be speedrun in a day or two and base stats can easily be maxed in half. Power creep also accurately describes what is happening. New gear is unarguably statwise better than older but the opposition doesn't get more difficult, it just pushes the endless missions a bit further. To be honest: we're so powerful compared to our enemies it might not even matter since overkill is overkill, be it by a factor of 10 or 1000.

Many of WF's problems stem from the lack of oversight, vision, planning and letting things way out of hand. OP's suggestion might seem daunting, convoluted and overly complex to some people but they would unarguably level the field for better overall playing experience by addressing the cheese-countercheese impasse we've had for the last two years and making wider range of loadouts and playstyles viable. Not to mention making MR1 and MR21 playing together a bit more bearable for all involved.

Personally I would also remove ammo and resource drops from enemies because the way I see it they it they both feed to cluster of problems WF suffers from. You could gain limited resupply in endless mode every 5 or 10. For the resources you would need to find store rooms and maybe hunt keycodes for rare material containers. This would also make carrier less of a necessity. Maybe I'll post this in a separate thread later.

[blackheartstar_pc]

4 hours ago, -Sora- said:

That's my solution to the issue. It's not nerf everything in order to make it a more even playing ground. But instead add in more progression to further the lifetime of the game itself for players at their endgame.

That's a solution I can fully agree with.

[IRVoidGuru]

8 hours ago, Kettunen said:

First of all you might want to check on Wikipedia what an outlier is. Hint : it doesn't mean an unique feature. The rest of your "arguments" have been answered and debunked in great detail in the tonkor thread so maybe check on it after that maybe?

so i chose to look up as you asked( i aim to please) and can confirm that i was correct. " a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set " is the definition players are using for "outlier" for tonkor. as all the weapons i stated are in fact complaint with this definition i stated. it seems as if your wrong. and as for the burst DPS argument there was never a counter-argument made against stronger Burst Dps weapons just rejections and farther arguments like this that hold no value or retort

im afraid to say that you have failed imo at properly dismissing my view of the incorrect "outlier" argument

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I even pointed out how. I remember the time before abilities were innate features of the warframes and you had to equip them to use them

I remember a time when cell phones didn't exist.  They do now.  Does this mean that I should disregard them totally because they were not there before.  Same with the catalysts, etc.

It's really strange how you can ignore some things that are in the game, but you can't seem to ignore that some players can choose to make energy efficient frames.  Not trying to insult you, but it's like you're wearing blinders while suffering from tunnel vision.  Your logic/method is confusing. 

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Care to quote me on that?

I did in the same post that you quoted.  Again, confusing.  I think that I'll just let this go for now.  Warframe is calling me to play. 

[-CM-Emptiness]

5 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I even pointed out how. I remember the time before abilities were innate features of the warframes and you had to equip them to use them. People ended up not equipping some abilities to save mod slots for more mini-maxing, so DE released a statement that all warframe abilities were meant to be used not just the one you've mini maxed your warframe for. Did this solve the issue of mini-maxing? No, people still make one trick pony crippled builds like RJ, but DE expressed their opinion that warframes are not supposed to be just one ability spam machines.

Like someone said earlier, we are all like electrical currents in that we choose the path of least resistance. Unfortunately, that is something no one but ourselves can change, no matter how many restrictions are put in place. The only difference between now and then is we don't have extra mod slots to benefit from switching out abilities.

On a more personal note, I don't think spamming will ever leave this game. It's like the players' answer to the developers' idea of grind.

[Jamescell]

On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 2:38 AM, -S-O-Kranker said:

There are enough other games out there. Play another where you cant do it! And yes i have fun oneshooting enemies till 40mins of any survival. And i still have fun till 1h40min where i need more shots to kill heavier units. This game is fine. That overpowerdness is what makes this game to what it is.

It's why so many players quit before MR 4 (if I recall correctly over half). It's why Warframe isn't absolutely amazing.

On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 1:36 AM, xXduncanXx said:

no, just no, we already got a lot of nerfs lately we don't want  more

The problem is that these forums, and this community in general, are infested with those that like the things about this game that turn away the more sensible masses of gamers and limit the games appeal and success. Most who have problems with the core scaling, damage, modding, and grinding mechanics quit the game (most of the gaming community) and all you're left with is the people that whine about nerfs and love the status quo of broken-ness.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Jamescell

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

5 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I remember a time when cell phones didn't exist.  They do now.  Does this mean that I should disregard them totally because they were not there before.  Same with the catalysts, etc.

It's really strange how you can ignore some things that are in the game, but you can't seem to ignore that some players can choose to make energy efficient frames.  Not trying to insult you, but it's like you're wearing blinders while suffering from tunnel vision.  Your logic/method is confusing. 

I do know about the broken things in the game. That's why I made a suggestion in the first place. I realize DE gave players all these options, I just don't like how they constantly contradict themselves and brake their own game.

DE were the ones that gave us efficiency mods that allow us to quadruple casting for cheap, they were the ones that stated that warframes shouldn't be one trick ponies and then gave us all the tools to do just that. They even made more mod slots for warframes. Same with weapons, DE claimed that they regretted giving damage mods such a big damage boost and then they released primed damage and bane mods,etc.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that all these changes are making the game even more unsustainable and turn content either into a walk in the park or a mandatory cheese fest.

[(XBOX)Skode]

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I do know about the broken things in the game. That's why I made a suggestion in the first place. I realize DE gave players all these options, I just don't like how they constantly contradict themselves and brake their own game.

DE were the ones that gave us efficiency mods that allow us to quadruple casting for cheap, they were the ones that stated that warframes shouldn't be one trick ponies and then gave us all the tools to do just that. They even made more mod slots for warframes. Same with weapons, DE claimed that they regretted giving damage mods such a big damage boost and then they released primed damage and bane mods,etc.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that all these changes are making the game even more unsustainable and turn content either into a walk in the park or a mandatory cheese fest.

Difference of directions maybe - Scott said he regrets numbers used in mods to buff damage being too high, Sheldon ruler of all things Baro and Void gave us Primed Pressure Point despite Scott's reservation on it. We as tenno can't agree but issue is DE can't truly change things from within either & the quite frankly shocking amount of salt from players at prospective multishot changes showed why they can't truly be in control whilst relying on free to play model. Baro can give the players exactly what they want - power creep, they as in the majority and that's what must be remembered. Us veterans are bored with the cheese, bloat and bullet sponges but it's not gonna change as its too embedded in the game now for too many.

 

Recent buffs great example - Saryn and Mag got buffed with better numbers and synergy if used right... the having to work harder for said numbers saw people collectively lose their S#&$ over the changes. This is what your up against of your having issue with OP players - shame as these changes made the frames better esp newest ones as they don't get to pine for one button nuke lopsided frames. I'm truly bored of the Tonkor troops, of the Synoid Simular Mirages but it's never gonna chance. Not whilst the community resists all change do readily - we only even got more balance IMO on Valkyr, Trinity etc because they DIDNT tell us beforehand about them. They stayed open for feedback... AFTER changes, the way it should be, DE needs control here and I personally believe nerfing cheese before the enemy scaling is the correct way if doing so.

[-CM-Emptiness]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)Skode said:

Not whilst the community resists all change do readily - we only even got more balance IMO on Valkyr, Trinity etc because they DIDNT tell us beforehand about them. They stayed open for feedback... AFTER changes, the way it should be, DE needs control here and I personally believe nerfing cheese before the enemy scaling is the correct way if doing so.

I won't force you, but reading through 32 pages of this topic might encourage you to reconsider. Just a note on the Trinity though, people have already pointed out the plunge in skill level for how Bless works. Before, you were required to time Glaive charges with the end of the Bless. If you go too early, damage is reduced by the previous Bless cast. If you go too late, you may get killed. Now, you just need to press the button. In effect, it works against the issue of spammability that the OP brought up. You can even re-cast it before duration ends, renewing the DR. Whilst it may seem more balanced, if spammability is a real issue then I think we can all agree those changes left a great big mud trail behind.

[RistN]

Yeah and while at it why don't we change the name of this game :)

I hate learning new reworked mechanics and new abilitys on reworked warframes.There is a lot of content in Warframe and I don't wanna go back to old stuff.Why could not them just test it in game and realize that some warframes or weapons or even mods or game mechanics are just too op before realising it rather than changing them over and over again.

I worked my a** off playing this game and making my equipment and warframes "big pink elephant in the room".What do I get for that?Instead of moving up me and players on my lvl get constantly downgraded.

Leave frames and game mechanics alone!Fix stuff that needs fixing,give us new stuff and then gradualy change some crutial things in this game.

There was nothing wrong with Volt and Mag but DE spent their time and resources making changes to them.Ok ,but what about Zephir,Limbo?When is their time gonna come?No one uses them.

Stop saying on forums: change basic mechanics of the game,change warframes that nothing is wrong with in the first place.There are lots of old things that need to be changed before changing some big things and conception of whole game.

Take away EV,take away our damage but whatever change is done ,me and others are gonna find a way to exploit them and make us OP once again.So this is a story without end to it.

[pavlo555]

On 15.06.2016 at 1:24 PM, Ninjaboy00 said:

For anyone who likes the power fantasy and hasn't played it already, I seriously recommend playing either Borderlands 2 or Pre-Sequel, because those games do an awesome job at making you feel powerful while still providing a challenge, and, again in my experience, conquering that challenge makes you feel even more powerful than just mindlessly one shotting everything. And besides, some of the characters in those games are awesome, and the humour doesn't hurt anything.

 

Sorry for off-topic... I remember in BL1 , I played split-screen with my brother, me as turret-guy and him as that invis guy or whatever... So we had that mission where we neewd to rescue one guy and some villain perpetually spammed his phrases and sat is a hgue ball of nope. So, we blasted through that mission in literal one minute with 50 hp / shields as we hit that guy, but holy cow, we felt extremely epic because we did literally 90% headshots, not just creeping for good weapons, we had usual RL and snipers, a tommygun-like pew-pew all dealing around 200 damage per second, which was low at that mark. We felt not cheesy, but rewarded....