Overpowered players

[Scoliak]

One suggested and then alot players are mad becouse of nerf. So why play the game when it gets nerfed every month while there are thousand other great game to play? 

But! Something are really overpowered.. Did you ever thinked about enemy scalling?

[Voltage]

On June 15, 2016 at 6:07 AM, Alma_Elma said:

I'd like you to complete 3 sorties with your following criteria. If you can't, do a T4 survival run for 60 minutes (40 if you're gonna do it solo).

1. No damage boost mods on your weapons. Physical or critical. Multishot can be included, but you can't mount ammunition mods to simulate your ideal "double ammunition" idea. Because we can't simulate your elemental idea; you're allowed to use LV2 elemental mods or dual stat elemental mods as a substitute.

2. No efficiency mods or Trinities in your group. Get other frames do to your healing or use life strike. And they must be meeting the same criteria as above.

3.Video you and your squad trying to complete the challenge I've laid out.

4. If you manage to win, I'll take your ideas seriously. Otherwise, have fun getting wrecked by the Eximi by the 20 minute mark/second sortie because of this game's unholy scaling system and see why a certain level of cheese is needed in this game to progress.

so you are saying this game is hard without mods? well of course. Enemy scaling needs a tweak, but it needs CHALLENGE. Our power creep is fine atm besides Bladestorm and a few other cheesy things. AI needs fixing. Limiting your mods doesn't mean you are good at the game. There is no skill in warframe outside of raids (atleast u need timing and team coordination). all warframe is is mod up and kill sheet. The enemies must be more dynamic with dodging cover and other mobility. Nullifier bubbles should be removed and replaced with enemies that nullify CC abilities.  Make warframe challenging not stupid.

[-CM-Emptiness]

1 hour ago, -CM-Voltage said:

so you are saying this game is hard without mods? well of course. Enemy scaling needs a tweak, but it needs CHALLENGE. Our power creep is fine atm besides Bladestorm and a few other cheesy things. AI needs fixing. Limiting your mods doesn't mean you are good at the game. There is no skill in warframe outside of raids (atleast u need timing and team coordination). all warframe is is mod up and kill sheet. The enemies must be more dynamic with dodging cover and other mobility. Nullifier bubbles should be removed and replaced with enemies that nullify CC abilities.  Make warframe challenging not stupid.

He was trying to get the OP to simulate his own suggestions in the current system. It's not wrong, since the OP desires all these changes before the enemy-rework. Might want to read the initial post for some context. Agree with the rest, except:

Nullifier bubbles should be removed and replaced with enemies that nullify CC abilities.

Ahem... Scrambus and Comba...

[DatDarkOne]

40 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Ahem... Scrambus and Comba...

I like those guys.  They keep me on my toes on Corpus missions.  They can totally screw over Stealth frames if you aren't paying attention.

[Soketsu]

42 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I like those guys.  They keep me on my toes on Corpus missions.  They can totally screw over Stealth frames if you aren't paying attention.

with all the noise they making, hard to not spot them unless you rush

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Soketsu said:

with all the noise they making, hard to not spot them unless you rush

Exactly!  :D

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

4 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

i stopped reading around here, there will be no form of fun high end game play for me in this game by limiting powers. some are Necessary Just to live in some missions. what is mesa without shatter shield? what is chroma without Vex armor? loki without invisibility? they are dead, that's what. iv been able to deal with the enemies in the game just fine. nerfing our ability to use powers will make a large number of players leave , nerf efficiency mods? lol whats next duration? or range then Duration mods?. and as for restores being nerfed? whats next specters? this idea could get out of hand if any of it was implemented. sorry but just no. serration, multi shot all that sure why not. im down. but nerf trin ? energy restore ability? and efficiency??? NO Thank You !

Do you consider being forced to spam cheesy abilities to be fun? If so, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. As for complaining about losing your cheese? All those frames could still use the abilities, they just wouldn't be able to keep all of them active throughout the entire game. Do you honestly believe that DE wanted players to keep perpetually invisible or invincible through the entire game? Warframe abilities are supposed to be used tactically and not just serve as permanent buffs. Shatter shield exists to give mesa survivalability during peacemaker and not to turn Mesa into a tank with 95% DR. And invisibility? I'd really like to hear your argument how permanent invisibility doesn't cheese the game. If enemies can't see you or retaliate they might as well be walking cardboard cutouts. What's worse is that you don't even need efficiency mods. All you need is half maxed energy overflow and you can stay permanently invisible.

Seriously, it's like some people can't do simple math anymore. Power strength, duration and range scales linearly where efficiency does not. If you want to increase your power strength you'll need to max and equip 4 mods for a total cost of 52 mod points. Not only that, you also end up with -55% efficiency and -27,5% duration. Offsetting those would require additional 32 mod points investment for a total of 84 mod points. So unless you don't really need duration you'll need to specialize your entire build around power strength.

Boosting efficiency for 300% only requires 18 mod points with an additional 13 to balance the duration for a total of 31mod points. This makes modding for efficiency way more powerful than maxing any other attribute. The only reason players wouldn't increase efficiency would be if there's an EV on the team or playing Inaros.

What is the point in having limited energy, ammo, shields, health if you can spam restores and restore them for the entire team? If restores are a legitimate mechanic for regaining combat assets then DE is forced to implement enemies that will force us to use them regularly. Does that still sound fun?

Edited June 23, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Do you honestly believe that DE wanted players to keep perpetually invisible

This most definitely seems the case with Ivara.  Her whole kit is pretty much based around it.  Even has limits placed on it while offering advantages to her other skills.  So, from the perspective of someone who plays her and very familiar with her kit, it's more than likely very much the case that DE wanted this.  It's almost obvious when you play her.  

Edit:  Ivara doesn't get any benefits from Energy Vampire, Energy Syphon, Energy pizzas, or Energy Overflow while in Prowl.  Only get energy from energy Orbs and Synd Procs

Edited June 23, 2016 by DatDarkOne
grammar

[bad4youLT]

On 2016-06-15 at 10:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I've seen a lot of threads and people commenting about overpowered enemies and their broken scaling, but it almost feels like everyone is just ignoring the pink elephant in the room. Overpowered and cheesy enemies are merely a symptom of another problem.

That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered. Not only is there power creep with each new weapons released, the biggest problem IMO is the weapon modding system. It allows for things like 100x damage increase with the right mods and that's just from weapon mods. Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies.

The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster.

• Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks.
• Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system.
• Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.
• Add skill indexed mods. These mods would replace mods like serration. They would work by awarding advanced use of game mechanics and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die.
• Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots.

The other problem are warframe powers. A lot of warframe powers completely disable or outright kill our enemies and for this reason they are supposed to be limited by energy. Powers are supposed to be used sparingly to enhance our play style and get out of tough situations. Unfortunately DE essentially broke their own energy system and now spamming powers has become the norm. It's actually entirely possible to get through non-endless missions without ever using weapons and still do your fair share of damage. Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,...

So how could DE fix the energy system?

• Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds.
• Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form.
• Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything.
• Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown.

So what would the effects of implementing these changes be? For starters the star map would become interesting again. Player skill would actually become a bigger factor which would add more room for growth and increase replayability. Ammo economy and energy management would become important again. Players could choose between modding for physical or elemental damage. DE could remove or nerf cheesy enemies since they would no longer be necessary. Endgame content could be rebalanced so enemies are no longer bullet sponge demigods that players currently don't bother killing if not necessary.

 

I would appreciate any feedback so don't hold back.

Edit: People seem to think that I'm advocating nerfing warframe and weapon damage without addressing the enemy stats, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  What I want is to keep the players engaged and challenged. Camping and spamming skills or cheesing your way through with copious CC and damage resistance is neither fun or engaging. Same goes for enemies with their nullifiers and debuffing auras. So I'm saying both should be rebalanced so players and enemies don't have to keep trying to out cheese each other.

Edit 2: Removing serration and lowering bonuses from elemental mods would only serve to remove insane mod damage scaling. Flat damage mods would be replaced by conditional mods that would only provide their boost by fulfilling their conditions.

  Reveal hidden contents

Mod examples:

• Head hunter ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots) drain 9, rarity: rare
• Strafer (40% bonus damage while airborne) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Wall turret ( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) drain 7, rarity : rare
• Perfectionist ( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Vital strike (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) drain 9, rarity : rare

These are just a few examples. I'm sure DE could come up with many more.

 

 

if DE would to do everything what is mention here I would quit warframe and never come back agian .

oh and the part about nerfing power effiecency mods

 

edit: gun play is boring I dont want warframe to become like destiny , spaming powers is what couth my atention and love to this game

Edited June 23, 2016 by bad4youLT

[blackheartstar_pc]

10 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

He has already proven that he's only concerned with his wants and to hell with all the other players as long as he gets his way. 

Exactly.

[Tomppak]

On 15.6.2016 at 10:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Mod examples:

• Head hunter ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots) drain 9, rarity: rare
• Strafer (40% bonus damage while airborne) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Wall turret ( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) drain 7, rarity : rare
• Perfectionist ( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Vital strike (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) drain 9, rarity : rare

These are just a few examples. I'm sure DE could come up with many more.

 

 

I really like those mod suggestions. I'm used to "modding" in most games meaning that you add a bonus, at the cost of a penalty - Corrupted mods are a good example of what mods should be. Currently, mods like Serration are kinda like the "true" level of your rifle - every time you add a rank, your weapon gains one level and a damage bonus associated with it - that's not really "modding" as modding is usually understood: You aren't modifying your weapon, you're merely upgrading it's statistics.

Mods like you suggest would diversify builds, making people choose mods based on what compliments their playstyle, as opposed to mods that provide the best damage bonus. For example, I'd use wall latcher and try to adapt my playstyle to accomodate it (and either adapt to it, or ditch it in favor of another mod if it proves too difficult). Likewise, I'd love to see more, and more balanced, corrupted mods - choosing between "increased multishot but decreased clipsize" and "increased fire rate, decreased damage" is a lot more interesting and gives a lot more room for personal preferences than "choose between corrosive and gas" - of course, the mods would need to be carefully balanced, and not abusable like the current -duration mods on Trinity EV.

(the negative duration ev is silly. Seriously, the negative trait on the mod is a DRAWBACK, and should hinder you, not something you are ment to exploit. Easiest fix for trinity would be to have negative duration actually make the EV last longer.)

[GeoffFromAccounting]

15 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

-snip-

(the negative duration ev is silly. Seriously, the negative trait on the mod is a DRAWBACK, and should hinder you, not something you are ment to exploit. Easiest fix for trinity would be to have negative duration actually make the EV last longer.)

Just wanted to comment on this bit, but I don't think reversing the effect that duration has on EV would work, because then you'll just mod every Trin for +Duration and +Power Strength which would benefit both EV and Blessing at the same time, making her more powerful than she already is.

In my opinion EV just needs a look at in general, not a complete rework mind you as the idea could still work, just a look at to see how to fix it properly

[Azrael]

27 minutes ago, Tomppak said:

(the negative duration ev is silly. Seriously, the negative trait on the mod is a DRAWBACK, and should hinder you, not something you are ment to exploit. Easiest fix for trinity would be to have negative duration actually make the EV last longer.)

It used to be there were three builds for trin, and three corresponding ways to play her. There was Bless: all the duration, with a self-damage weapon, and make sure you don't have too much health or do too much damage with your self-damage weapon. Also you needed QT + flow (or primed), and the idea was to self-damage then put up blessings. Second was Link (what we always called Battle Jesus): much duration, okay range. Use link and run around and fight, and use occasional blessings. No self-damage. Third was EV.

Now there are two builds: Battle Jesus and EV. You see, being a blessing trin is much less difficult than it was, so the duration isn't as important. And the lower DR means you need link. So a Bless trin is just a Battle Jesus that keeps casting bless.

Now you want to make it one build. Only one way to play trin, and that's Battle Jesus. You can EV or Bless as you like, but you'll have the same build no matter what. This means that EV trins no longer have to make themselves vulnerable by nerfing link and blessing. You no longer take on a huge risk to play EV. There's no variety in builds. Just one super build that does everything as well as it can be done. So what we'll end up with is a weaker bless, a weaker EV, and less interesting play. It'll be fair, balanced, and boring as hek.

Unless we nerf link too. Then we'll just have a frame that nobody plays. Yay nerfs!

[Prepotenza]

On 15/6/2016 at 9:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I've seen a lot of threads and people commenting about overpowered enemies and their broken scaling, but it almost feels like everyone is just ignoring the pink elephant in the room. Overpowered and cheesy enemies are merely a symptom of another problem.

That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered. Not only is there power creep with each new weapons released, the biggest problem IMO is the weapon modding system. It allows for things like 100x damage increase with the right mods and that's just from weapon mods. Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies.

The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster.

• Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks.
• Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system.
• Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.
• Add skill indexed mods. These mods would replace mods like serration. They would work by awarding advanced use of game mechanics and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die.
• Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots.

The other problem are warframe powers. A lot of warframe powers completely disable or outright kill our enemies and for this reason they are supposed to be limited by energy. Powers are supposed to be used sparingly to enhance our play style and get out of tough situations. Unfortunately DE essentially broke their own energy system and now spamming powers has become the norm. It's actually entirely possible to get through non-endless missions without ever using weapons and still do your fair share of damage. Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,...

So how could DE fix the energy system?

• Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds.
• Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form.
• Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything.
• Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown.

So what would the effects of implementing these changes be? For starters the star map would become interesting again. Player skill would actually become a bigger factor which would add more room for growth and increase replayability. Ammo economy and energy management would become important again. Players could choose between modding for physical or elemental damage. DE could remove or nerf cheesy enemies since they would no longer be necessary. Endgame content could be rebalanced so enemies are no longer bullet sponge demigods that players currently don't bother killing if not necessary.

 

I would appreciate any feedback so don't hold back.

Edit: People seem to think that I'm advocating nerfing warframe and weapon damage without addressing the enemy stats, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  What I want is to keep the players engaged and challenged. Camping and spamming skills or cheesing your way through with copious CC and damage resistance is neither fun or engaging. Same goes for enemies with their nullifiers and debuffing auras. So I'm saying both should be rebalanced so players and enemies don't have to keep trying to out cheese each other.

Edit 2: Removing serration and lowering bonuses from elemental mods would only serve to remove insane mod damage scaling. Flat damage mods would be replaced by conditional mods that would only provide their boost by fulfilling their conditions.

  Reveal hidden contents

Mod examples:

• Head hunter ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots) drain 9, rarity: rare
• Strafer (40% bonus damage while airborne) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Wall turret ( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) drain 7, rarity : rare
• Perfectionist ( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Vital strike (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) drain 9, rarity : rare

These are just a few examples. I'm sure DE could come up with many more.

 

 

The game's enemy scale mechanic is designed in a way that you need to spam powers to keep up with enemies. After a certain level even a couple of shot by an Osprey can destroy you. What would be supposed to do to counter overpowered mobs? We need overpowered frames and mechanics.

Those mods would be a bad idea. They tried to diverisfy the game with mods like Argon Scope (that gives you crit bonus after an headshot) and the result is that 90% of the player use that on Tonkor (you just need to shoot and you will get the bonus, probably becuase the explosion hits the whole body, including head) making the red crit tonkor not a dream anymore.

Mod examples:

• Head hunter ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots): this would be completely broken on Tonkor.
• Strafer (40% bonus damage while airborne): no please, do you imagine people jumping everytime they need to fire (when you aim during air time you can stay airborne longer, but considering how slow you are you are an easy target for everyone)
• Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) Tonkor, again.
• Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) Oh my, Tonkor (and every other weapon)
• Wall turret ( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) one of the worst idea I ever heard of.
• Perfectionist ( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) Synoid Simulor. Ivara.
• Vital strike (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) this would work just with your Head hunter mod, meaning Tonkor would benefit incredibly.

And the Wall Latch bonus mods is such a bad idea. Come on. Oh, I am in a level 100+ mission, let me wall latch (completely stopping myself) to do more damage. And while you are sticked to the wall a random bombard appears and shoots at you.

The problem is that players will always find a way to exploit. The problem is that game needs a rework under many aspects.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i don't know if the means presented in the original post are the ones to go to reintroduce some challenge to this game, but its reasoning is correct:

we are overpowered and this game hardly feels like playing anymore, just going through motions.

sure, you do die from time to time because you're occasionally one-shot out of nowhere by a sniper unit / nullifier from behind/across the map or because of some shields bypassing poison cloud that's suddenly appearing besides you or the ridiculous rocket barrage the corrupted bombard is capable of or after being switch teleported by dhurnam n rathuum or because in 2 seconds the whole floor is covered in sapper droppings with no way to escape. but these situations are not difficullt, they are more/less impossible and there's a big difference. it's enemy cheese. thing is our OP-ness actually justifies such lame enemy designs because by "fair" means noone would be able to ever even touch us.

also never forget: you go down someone can revive you again at no cost whatsoever. when was the last time you REALLY came close to losing your last life despite trying your best? i honestly can't even remember. did you ever get a "gg" after a match and thought "yep, did good, feeling satisfied" instead of "yeah well thanks i guess i was able to press my button repeatedly to play my role...".

concerning our official "endgame":

sorties are not hard. the weapon restricitons hardly matter as we have frames doing all the damage for us and another one being able to constantly fuel them with the needed energy.

energy restriciton is a joke because of the latter, too.

higher resistance? my tonkor doesn't even notice...

eximi lair? yeah, sure poison clouds, fire explosions and energy drain freaking everywhere is annoying and BS but again: totally circumventable.

sortie spy missions? completely skippable with loki, just like all the others.

raids hard? RAIDS? where the hardest part is standing in one correct spot at the right time? i repeat: standing around? you've got to be kidding me. yeah sure if you play a raid for the first time there's stuff to learn but after you get the theory down what's left? NOTHING. not an easy challenge, no: NONE AT ALL. then the second hardest part is probably the hacking minigames. again, let that sink in: in an action shooter game some minigames are the hardest part in endgame content (and only in NM. of course usually there's gadgets to trivialize even those).

i'm not talking about starchart progressing / making the game much harder in general, i am only talking about an endgame doing the term justice! we don't have that. i'm mr21 and got everything in this game and still want to find a challenge somewhere, and NOT some artificial one after 2 hours of camping in some sewer in survival, that's boring and tedious. again: i don't mind being able to skip a gift of the lotus low level exterminate with ember (though i usually do so solo to not spoil newbie's game experience). but with the current "system" there is no way to make the game genuinly challenging except...

yes, i know i can make the game harder for myself by gimping myself with substandard loadouts, BUT:
1. this doesn't make enemy cheese tactics disappear
and more importantly:
2. that's just not satisfying, to me at least. that's not how my (or most i would guess) psyche works. overcoming a self imposed challenge can never be as satisfying as an external one. i always thought that was actually the point of videogames to begin with?! instead of just pressing buttons and getting a light show and some random reward at the end...

there a so many construction sites to be attended to, but my first concern would be our energy economy or rather: lack thereof. "ults" are just as spammable as "ones", it's only logical there's no balancing potential from there. gunplay is boring to you? um well last time i checked this game was actually a 3rd person shooter or am i mistaken here? anyway even in pure rpgs there's usually a mana system to hold magic in check. i can't recall any game ever having a character that instantly replenishes every party members energy INCLUDING ITS OWN. that's just borked beyond belief. i now some people believe we are supposed to always have our whole arsenal of skills at our disposal at any given time, but if that's the case why do we have an energy system at all? and tiered skills? it does not make any sense...

then get rid of endless missions, or make that a seperate gamemode with insignificant rewards for the freaks that love to try extremes (and have lots of free time). cap the enemy level in regular gameplay, the number isn't even important, just establish some kind of benchmark.

then cap CC stuff like bastille to like 4 at a time, the spy vaults in sorties should be NO SKILL zones (like completely in a nully field) so we actually have to play frigging STEALTH.

we have such a cool multi-purpose parcour system but we almost never make full use of it, only to skip maps the fastest way possible. i understand the devs don't want us to shoot from cover like regular shooters, i feel this is were our ninja movement skills should come into play. but either there's no incentive to actually dodge anything because the whole map is perma-nuked or CCed anyway OR often we are hit regardless due to extreme aimbotting or rockets following us around every corner for eternity.

... jeesh i'm getting worked up, time to take a break XD...

 

tl;dr: agreeing with ops sentiment that we're overpowered. with the right tools there is no challenge in this game to be found anymore. and i don't mean little challenge, i mean quite literally none at all. and i'd like the option to find some OUTSIDE of gimping myself :3 ...

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

You know what I don't understand I solo Warframe 99 percent of the time can take down a tier 4 mission the only thing that sorta limits me is sortie missions .......You can become able to handle any enemy with time I in fact made it a art where i can regenerate every thing and have become a walking tank with every armor upgrade and health heal mod. I have scene players better with a gun and for me i am better with a melee weapon....

No matter what game I play , I embrace it rather it being dark souls -fallout- Warframe no matter the game I don't want a game that plays the same its boring I want a new experience unlike any thing i have ever played

I enjoy warframe as it is and don't wish to argue are fight I just find this entire thing silly

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

 

Reasons we need a nerf/re-balance to everything to improve warframe as a whole. (Re-posted this so people can understand hopefully).  

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Players from the beginning would choose a path that fits their type of play style (swords, hammers, magnums, lever actions, fast, tanky, etc.) and by the end game would hone their skills on their particular play style to make them unique from others - and would enjoy the path they choose. Overcoming end game content to get the high end items and show off what earned with their skill, experience, and hard work.

A foundation for a game when it comes to progression, player damage, enemy damage, health, play styles, etc all boils down to a end-game which translates to hard capping the players level/arsenal and hard capping the enemies level/arsenal. After that, it all depends on skill and experience to justify who can do end game content and who needs more practice to hone their skills to overcome endgame content. 

 

The perfect co-op/pve game would be one where every character/power, weapon, pets etc. is balance as whole to each other.

In turn creates a wide variety of playstyles that aren't hindered or powerless whether it be from beginning all the way to end game.

Every character, every gun, every companion is viable and when hitting end game the ones who are able to get the best gear/loot (ex:sorties and T4) will be the players with the most skill and experience - not the ones with the most OP flavor of the month gear which we currently are at.

Being able to choose the type of weapon you want and frame that fits your playstyle will be able to overcome end game content with enough skill and experience without being 2nd to other OP items that make it a cakewalk. With a balanced game you get to choose whichever loadout your preference/playstyle wants and still compete with the items selected at any moment through game.

Games should be about improving oneself with skills andknowledge - showing that if you have the know-how and the determination to get passed difficult obstacles, you as a player and person will shine in the face of adversity.

The game should never be about who has the best items, spent the most money, has maxed every "mod," or who grinded 16 hours a day. Never ever should.

Skill is Skill, experience is experience - whoever has the most of both should be the elites of a game playing "T4 missions" and "sorties" or whatever the endgame may be - and help others when in need or if they choose to. This also creates more teacher and disciple scenarios. Bigger bonds, and respect for those who reached the top with hard work.

Being the best shouldn't be easy - in fact it should be very difficult. But, it should never be as tiring/tedious/aggravating as the current game entails which is mind numbing grinding for the sake of mastery, one hit quit replay-ability, and RNGesus mentality (which acquiring things should be leaning more towards ones skill). Which all these would be affected by balancing - curing this disease of cheese and creating a game based on skill and experience.

Having any over powered anything destroys the balance in which turn creates more OP things which creates more OP enemies which creates obsolete frames and weapons in end game since endgame needs to be buffed for the OP items which creates bandaids for said OP things that never really helps which in turn brings out un-band aid OP weapons and the cycle continues. More weapons becoming obsolete for higher content, players having to cheese cheesy enemies that 1 shot you with grakatas that were created for said higher content. It's a viscous cycle, OP things can never exist in a co-op/pvp game like warframe for the sole fact it affects everyone unlike a single player game like DOOM, Fallout, etc where its one person.

With a balanced game, you get to pick whatever you want as a preference and its still viable to the end - that is what this post is trying to get at.

This post isn't about nerfing your beloved things to oblivion - it's to even the playing field for everything so that your play style isn't hindered or weak compared to others AND what truly separates the great players wouldn't be using the best items in the game but who has the most experience in the game and who has the skill to defeat the challenges.

This hardcap will not affect warframes uniqueness in terms of play style or frame abilities - cause each frame will still have it's own play style - but not as overkill as it is now, so players will still have options when it comes to frames. Enemies will be hardcapped to also prevent enemy bullet sponges and one-shotting players, so there will be no need for players to be dependent on abilities as frequently as they do currently. 

Your frames will still be unique, they will still have their own play style - whether it be to CC, heal, tank, or to kill - It just won't be as overboard as it is now - you instead combine your skills of movement, gunplay, and warframe abilities to tackle the challenges and endgame content without one thing being the necessity.

 

 

 

 

 

(Re-postEd) What is best believed as a balanced warframe, and what OP may be trying to derive.

 

Here are some ideas of mine to start the balance of warframe (up for debate)

 

1. Hard cap enemy level to 40 (while keeping players at 30 the same). enemies at 0-10 for beginners, 10-20 for intermediate, 20-30 for advanced, and 30-40 for high end/challenging content. 40+ (at that point good luck difficulty) for endless missions so players at some point will be forced to leave or die. Enemy health/damage scaling will be linear and AI will be more difficult as level increases.
2. Readjust frames, weapons, companions to be viable for new enemy levels and level cap. Elemental mods, damage type mods will convert weapon damage into that specific type instead of a pure damage bonus. (example: 100 damage sword with 60% shocking touch mod creates 40 damage and 60 electric damage - making it still a good build for corpus).
3. Remove all pure damage mods (serration, pressure point, etc) and implement them into the weapons and pets so as the player levels - so does their damage. (The increase in damage to level goes with idea 2's statement).
4. Remove warframe ability mods intensity, streamline, stretch, and continuity and keep and expand the corrupted mods (having an advantage/disadvantage in return for a specific type of playstyle focus for players).
5. Add damage/power/movement bonuses for skillful plays/combos/teamplay.

 

This would be the start for an ideal warframe that gives players the most options, challenge, and fun.

Remember - skill and experience over meta and cheese.

 

And yes, there should be skill in a PVE game.

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)lNoctus said:

 

Reasons we need a nerf/re-balance to everything to improve warframe as a whole. (Re-posted this so people can understand hopefully).  

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Players from the beginning would choose a path that fits their type of play style (swords, hammers, magnums, lever actions, fast, tanky, etc.) and by the end game would hone their skills on their particular play style to make them unique from others - and would enjoy the path they choose. Overcoming end game content to get the high end items and show off what earned with their skill, experience, and hard work.

A foundation for a game when it comes to progression, player damage, enemy damage, health, play styles, etc all boils down to a end-game which translates to hard capping the players level/arsenal and hard capping the enemies level/arsenal. After that, it all depends on skill and experience to justify who can do end game content and who needs more practice to hone their skills to overcome endgame content. 

 

The perfect co-op/pve game would be one where every character/power, weapon, pets etc. is balance as whole to each other.

In turn creates a wide variety of playstyles that aren't hindered or powerless whether it be from beginning all the way to end game.

Every character, every gun, every companion is viable and when hitting end game the ones who are able to get the best gear/loot (ex:sorties and T4) will be the players with the most skill and experience - not the ones with the most OP flavor of the month gear which we currently are at.

Being able to choose the type of weapon you want and frame that fits your playstyle will be able to overcome end game content with enough skill and experience without being 2nd to other OP items that make it a cakewalk. With a balanced game you get to choose whichever loadout your preference/playstyle wants and still compete with the items selected at any moment through game.

Games should be about improving oneself with skills andknowledge - showing that if you have the know-how and the determination to get passed difficult obstacles, you as a player and person will shine in the face of adversity.

The game should never be about who has the best items, spent the most money, has maxed every "mod," or who grinded 16 hours a day. Never ever should.

Skill is Skill, experience is experience - whoever has the most of both should be the elites of a game playing "T4 missions" and "sorties" or whatever the endgame may be - and help others when in need or if they choose to. This also creates more teacher and disciple scenarios. Bigger bonds, and respect for those who reached the top with hard work.

Being the best shouldn't be easy - in fact it should be very difficult. But, it should never be as tiring/tedious/aggravating as the current game entails which is mind numbing grinding for the sake of mastery, one hit quit replay-ability, and RNGesus mentality (which acquiring things should be leaning more towards ones skill). Which all these would be affected by balancing - curing this disease of cheese and creating a game based on skill and experience.

Having any over powered anything destroys the balance in which turn creates more OP things which creates more OP enemies which creates obsolete frames and weapons in end game since endgame needs to be buffed for the OP items which creates bandaids for said OP things that never really helps which in turn brings out un-band aid OP weapons and the cycle continues. More weapons becoming obsolete for higher content, players having to cheese cheesy enemies that 1 shot you with grakatas that were created for said higher content. It's a viscous cycle, OP things can never exist in a co-op/pvp game like warframe for the sole fact it affects everyone unlike a single player game like DOOM, Fallout, etc where its one person.

With a balanced game, you get to pick whatever you want as a preference and its still viable to the end - that is what this post is trying to get at.

This post isn't about nerfing your beloved things to oblivion - it's to even the playing field for everything so that your play style isn't hindered or weak compared to others AND what truly separates the great players wouldn't be using the best items in the game but who has the most experience in the game and who has the skill to defeat the challenges.

This hardcap will not affect warframes uniqueness in terms of play style or frame abilities - cause each frame will still have it's own play style - but not as overkill as it is now, so players will still have options when it comes to frames. Enemies will be hardcapped to also prevent enemy bullet sponges and one-shotting players, so there will be no need for players to be dependent on abilities as frequently as they do currently. 

Your frames will still be unique, they will still have their own play style - whether it be to CC, heal, tank, or to kill - It just won't be as overboard as it is now - you instead combine your skills of movement, gunplay, and warframe abilities to tackle the challenges and endgame content without one thing being the necessity.

 

 

 

 

 

(Re-postEd) What is best believed as a balanced warframe, and what OP may be trying to derive.

 

Here are some ideas of mine to start the balance of warframe (up for debate)

 

1. Hard cap enemy level to 40 (while keeping players at 30 the same). enemies at 0-10 for beginners, 10-20 for intermediate, 20-30 for advanced, and 30-40 for high end/challenging content. 40+ (at that point good luck difficulty) for endless missions so players at some point will be forced to leave or die. Enemy health/damage scaling will be linear and AI will be more difficult as level increases.
2. Readjust frames, weapons, companions to be viable for new enemy levels and level cap. Elemental mods, damage type mods will convert weapon damage into that specific type instead of a pure damage bonus. (example: 100 damage sword with 60% shocking touch mod creates 40 damage and 60 electric damage - making it still a good build for corpus).
3. Remove all pure damage mods (serration, pressure point, etc) and implement them into the weapons and pets so as the player levels - so does their damage. (The increase in damage to level goes with idea 2's statement).
4. Remove warframe ability mods intensity, streamline, stretch, and continuity and keep and expand the corrupted mods (having an advantage/disadvantage in return for a specific type of playstyle focus for players).
5. Add damage/power/movement bonuses for skillful plays/combos/teamplay.

 

This would be the start for an ideal warframe that gives players the most options, challenge, and fun.

Remember - skill and experience over meta and cheese.

 

And yes, there should be skill in a PVE game.

What your talking about takes out every unique feature in warframe  -We are not playing dark souls here warframe is in the genre of hack and slash a stress relief where you kill a lot of stuff after a long day of work  A game like you are talking about feeds gamer on there achievements. what you are proposing is to make warframe a entirely different game genre and in the end i would see that destroying there fan base- most likely killing there fan base its popular as it is and I don't see reason to destroy there fan base If you got your way and you won't cause me and other players will see to it you don't because I see it as you destroying a game I love

but try and see how many players Will react negatively to your suggestion

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i don't understand why there shouldn't be adequate difficulty for any taste in this game.

people tend to quickly argue in black and white, always ready to use thought-terminating clichés like "warframe isn't dark souls/call of duty". if all you're really looking for is mindless button mashing after an oh-so-hard day there's noone keeping you from playing low level stuff. again: endgame is another story in my book. any difficulty/actual gameplay ends at the loadout screen, even there. that's just bad design per definitionem. not a matter of taste.

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

i don't understand why there shouldn't be adequate difficulty for any taste in this game.

people tend to quickly argue in black and white, always ready to use thought-terminating clichés like "warframe isn't dark souls/call of duty". if all you're really looking for is mindless button mashing after an oh-so-hard day there's noone keeping you from playing low level stuff. again: endgame is another story in my book. any difficulty/actual gameplay ends at the loadout screen, even there. that's just bad design per definitionem. not a matter of taste.

You could argue the opposite if you want the game you speak of play another game sophistry doesn't work on me Warframe is highly popular with out the change why change

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

why shouldn't it be popular and challenging? there are alot of popular (dare i say some probably even more popular) games out there. none of those i know (i can't know every single one of course) are as lame as warframe. i repeat: none. this is literally the only "game" that pretty much plays itself. i don't understand the devs reasoning sometimes. they took away vanilla greedy pull and peacemaker (rightly so of course) then introduce an augment like resonating quake. with primed flow you can easily sit in one spot in draco, press 4 then conveniently grab a bite, take a or whatever. this isn't even easy gameplay anymore, it is none at all. what is "fun" about this? not playing the game or at least as little as possible? and this is actually one of the best ways to level stuff / progress... it's mind boggling, really.

edit: i do love this game, otherwise i wouldn't have spent like 2300 hours in it already. the thing is: it still can be better. like: really good. the direction we are going in terms of lore etc. is great already. i love the art design and its core ideas. it's just the execution that is lacking in parts (vital parts, unfortunately). yes, i know it feels good "cheating" the game, getting stuff easily by "outmarting" it, using exploits etc. ... for a while. but there comes a point you'll ask yourself: that was it? some people say they feel they have a right to be able to skip content after all that grinding/"work". I say: after achieving everything in the game i have a right to a proportionate challenge!

Edited June 23, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[IRVoidGuru]

6 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Do you consider being forced to spam cheesy abilities to be fun? If so, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. As for complaining about losing your cheese? All those frames could still use the abilities, they just wouldn't be able to keep all of them active throughout the entire game. Do you honestly believe that DE wanted players to keep perpetually invisible or invincible through the entire game? Warframe abilities are supposed to be used tactically and not just serve as permanent buffs. Shatter shield exists to give mesa survivalability during peacemaker and not to turn Mesa into a tank with 95% DR. And invisibility? I'd really like to hear your argument how permanent invisibility doesn't cheese the game. If enemies can't see you or retaliate they might as well be walking cardboard cutouts. What's worse is that you don't even need efficiency mods. All you need is half maxed energy overflow and you can stay permanently invisible.

Seriously, it's like some people can't do simple math anymore. Power strength, duration and range scales linearly where efficiency does not. If you want to increase your power strength you'll need to max and equip 4 mods for a total cost of 52 mod points. Not only that, you also end up with -55% efficiency and -27,5% duration. Offsetting those would require additional 32 mod points investment for a total of 84 mod points. So unless you don't really need duration you'll need to specialize your entire build around power strength.

Boosting efficiency for 300% only requires 18 mod points with an additional 13 to balance the duration for a total of 31mod points. This makes modding for efficiency way more powerful than maxing any other attribute. The only reason players wouldn't increase efficiency would be if there's an EV on the team or playing Inaros.

What is the point in having limited energy, ammo, shields, health if you can spam restores and restore them for the entire team? If restores are a legitimate mechanic for regaining combat assets then DE is forced to implement enemies that will force us to use them regularly. Does that still sound fun?

the only problem with your argument is there are builds with low efficientcy that Require the energy restore ability we have just to keep up , my saryn for example. do i find requiring a power fun ? well no on the other hand id have way less fun without that power active witch is why its a requirement, invis should be able to be countered by enemys fireing on an area they hear a shot Forcing u to mod for silence to get the ability u have now. if u work hard enough on your mods and frame. you then should be able to do more then others. my mesa has over 3k plat in her. arcanes based off the deffence shatter shield gives. should i lose my set up cuz players dont like efficientcy? they answer is just no. as for + 300 percent i get where u may feel that way but its not that at all. it is 190 you can get at best and its capped to 175 . efficiency is cheaper mod cost wise because its limited. if we limit power strength range and duration then maybe i could agree with you. but that in turn ruins build variability 

Edited June 23, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

why shouldn't it be popular and challenging? there are alot of popular (dare i say some probably even more popular) games out there. none of those i know (i can't know every single one of course) are as lame as warframe. i repeat: none. this is literally the only "game" that pretty much plays itself. i don't understand the devs reasoning sometimes. they took away vanilla greedy pull and peacemaker (rightly so of course) then introduce an augment like resonating quake. with primed flow you can easily sit in one spot in draco, press 4 then conveniently grab a bite, take a or whatever. this isn't even easy gameplay anymore, it is none at all. what is "fun" about this? not playing the game or at least as little as possible? and this is actually one of the best ways to level stuff / progress... it's mind boggling, really.

Warframe is already popular and again why play a game you hate let me tell you one more thing I Love the warframe [DE] team xbox went down and rebbeca was right on it they need a award! so don't you dare bash them!

 

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

What your talking about takes out every unique feature in warframe  -We are not playing dark souls here warframe is in the genre of hack and slash a stress relief where you kill a lot of stuff after a long day of work  A game like you are talking about feeds gamer on there achievements. what you are proposing is to make warframe a entirely different game genre and in the end i would see that destroying there fan base- most likely killing there fan base its popular as it is and I don't see reason to destroy there fan base If you got your way and you won't cause me and other players will see to it you don't because I see it as you destroying a game I love

but try and see how many players Will react negatively to your suggestion

 

Warframe shouldn't be a scapegoat for players who want to cheese enemies without a struggle - there are many other games where you can be a god in single player or relax like in a bird simulator where you fly around with no obstacles (or even do other activities other than gaming if you just want to relax or kick back).

Since warframe is heavily co-op focused, god mode shouldn't be a thing for warframe.

If and when warframe is balanced (and it will) you can still indiscriminately slaughter level 1 enemies for your amusement, and when you feel the need to be serious - play harder enemies.

 

just because the game lead down a path of kill everything no challenge doesn't mean that was warframes intention - they are wanting to balance everything from what devstreams have announced.

 

as a matter of fact it's exactly the reason I want warframe to be balanced and skilled because warframe itself is a unique game and why waste potential for casuals to easy mode through content and have weapons/frames be obsolete to the meta of the month new gear? No.

everything should be viable, that is why balance is needed.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Itz chibi said:

Warframe is already popular and again why play a game you hate let me tell you one more thing I Love the warframe [DE] team xbox went down and rebbeca was right on it they need a award! so don't you dare bash them!

read my edit of the post before. i don't bash the devs by questioning their reasoning. we are in feedback, this forum exists for that.