Fundamentally flawed enemies

[TARINunit9]

OK, so we all have those enemies we all hate because they're just plain not fun or fair to fight against. Oftentimes it seems to me it's because DE is sticking with an idea that sounded awesome on paper but in practice was flawed at the fundamental level. ITT, objective reasons why enemies are so annoying or unfair

Let's start this out with the obvious:
Nullifiers.
-The intention: Nullifiers provide special defense against firearms and ranged weapons, encouraging players to move into melee (a risky but rewarding prospect if the bubble is full of other enemies) and forcing players to rely on their skills rather than their frame's powers. Nullifiers, despite having Proto-shield type shields, are fragile by themselves and can be swiftly dispatched once you get past their Lankas. The bubbles have 2500 health, and cap all damage at 600, but also have a minimum damage cap of 100, so they scale perfectly
-The reality: Nullifier shields do nothing but make players feel like they aren't allowed to use certain gear or combat options. The regenerating shields are substantially worse for player with slower-firing weapons like the Opticor or Penta. They purge buffs instantly, block all power-related damage, erase most debuffs, and even destroy stuff that was set up outside the nullie bubble like Atlas's Rumblers. All they do is make you feel like you're wasting ammo and energy. They aren't a special challenge to focus on, they're just rich Corpus bratty bullies who take away all your best toys

My personal suggestions:
*Make nullie bubbles vulnerable to Punch-through
*Make all buffs and other such powers only shut off temporarily. For example, if Chroma sets up a Vex Armor and manages to build up 200 Scorn and Rage, instead of purging his Vex Armor outright and forcing a recast the nullie bubble just temporarily sets his Scorn and Rage to zero until he either kills the nullie or moves out of the bubble

[Pizzarugi]

I love the idea of them being vulnerable to punch-through. It would definitely encourage players to build at least one weapon with it in order to counter them, much the same way as Sentients encourage players to build all their weapons with different elemental loadouts.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

nulls and bombards need to be reworked ,to just make them a fun adversary. the more ideas we show may eventually make its way down to us 

[Xennocide420]

15 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

 

My personal suggestions:
*Make nullie bubbles vulnerable to Punch-through
*Make all buffs and other such powers only shut off temporarily. For example, if Chroma sets up a Vex Armor and manages to build up 200 Scorn and Rage, instead of purging his Vex Armor outright and forcing a recast the nullie bubble just temporarily sets his Scorn and Rage to zero until he either kills the nullie or moves out of the bubble

 

Yeh, they shouldn't neutralize out casted abilities, only cancel them out while in the bubble. If my Loki is invisible, it can be canceled while in the bubble, timer should continue as normal, and when exit the bubble the ability should resume.

 

 

[-N7-Leonhart]

The nullifiers are a flawless enemy in my opinion. Can be very strong against some stuff, but it's also pathetically weak, basically 0 against some other stuff.

A very flawed enemy could be considered a very high level grineer heavy. No weaknesses, if you don't count in cheese.

[EmptyDevil]

I have an idea for Nullifiers in this thread:

I think it would be a lot better than the current Nullifier mechanics.

[PopGligor]

I don't think nullifiers designed to be a challenge. That would be bursas. Nullifiers an enemy that demands you to change how you approach things. There's also a reason they have a bubble and not a shield - because they're supposed to provide cover for other enemies. I think they're one of the better enemies in the void.

I think Warframe needs more enemies like this. Enemies that demand you to change your tactics. In the void there's so many enemies and only 3 types that affect how you play - nullifiers, bombards and healers. Everything else requires the exact same approach, the difference in enemies is more cosmetic than essential. 

I think there's a problem with their script in later stages of void/corpus missions where too many of them can spawn at once, making the concept of them being a priority kinda useless. When everything is a priority, nothing is. They should join bursas and juggernauts as special enemies that spawn rarely and are always announced by Lotus. Which should also affect their spawn rate. 

I think the void altogether needs a more varied enemy roster in terms of gameplay. Derelict and grineer missions do it much better. In my opinion, grineer are by far the most fun tilesets to play because of how they work as enemies. 

[Dreddeth]

Nullifiers aren't even that great at their jobs compared to Comba/Scrambus units, which are incidentally more fairly designed. You get pinged when you're in range, a couple of your powers go offline, and you either take a few seconds looking for a conspicuous hat to shoot off, or just power through it.

Nullifiers on the other hand are just walking fortifications which are paradoxically immune to typical bunker-busting gear thanks to an arbitrary damage cap. They would be fun if they just protected rather than negated, but then they wouldn't be Nullifiers, so maybe removing the damage cap would do.

[(PSN)Saobie3]

You said "enemies" and i was hoping to see mor than one.

 

Like, for instance, Ancients and Scorpions and their cyborg-targeting reticules that allow them to grapple us from a -87.66456 degree angle moving 476mph with no warning and using it the split second a Tenno crosses their telepathic vision sphere.

 

I made a post about it and someone commentd perfectly: An infected pile of flesh and degenerate clone should not have the reflexes to catch an olympic acrobatic space ninja

[Xennocide420]

ill just leave this here -

2:34 =

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Xennocide420

[TARINunit9]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Saobie3 said:

You said "enemies" and i was hoping to see mor than one.

 

Like, for instance, Ancients and Scorpions and their cyborg-targeting reticules that allow them to grapple us from a -87.66456 degree angle moving 476mph with no warning and using it the split second a Tenno crosses their telepathic vision sphere.

 

I made a post about it and someone commentd perfectly: An infected pile of flesh and degenerate clone should not have the reflexes to catch an olympic acrobatic space ninja

I was trying to encourage people to post their own. Thanks for mentioning some :)

[VisionAndVoice]

I come here with an unpopular opinion that Nullifiers are fine as is and shouldn't be touched. However trite the "git gud" phrase sounds, it is true.

[(PSN)Saobie3]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

I was trying to encourage people to post their own. Thanks for mentioning some :)

I see, in that case glad i contributed lol. Those are th only 3 enemies that give me any sort of heartache. Theyre basically artificially problematic

[(PSN)Saobie3]

1 minute ago, VisionAndVoice said:

I come here with an unpopular opinion that Nullifiers are fine as is and shouldn't be touched. However trite the "git gud" phrase sounds, it is true.

You should understand that simply saying "Its EZ, git gud skrub" makes people saying it look like absolute idiots. Though i personally dont have quite as much issue with them, it dosnt mean im going to go around and tell people an enemy they see as flawed (they ARE flawed btw) is easy to me, and therefor they need to get better and stop their whining.

 

[VisionAndVoice]

I understand that, and I don't care what I look like anyway.

For a long time I've noticed that the better part of the game's problems are actually problems with the players, not the game. Not to say that WF doesn't have objective flaws, but Nullifiers are not one of them.

[(PSN)Saobie3]

10 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

I understand that, and I don't care what I look like anyway.

For a long time I've noticed that the better part of the game's problems are actually problems with the players, not the game. Not to say that WF doesn't have objective flaws, but Nullifiers are not one of them.

Interesting how youv tried to state your opinion as fact just now. Though im not different, i did it just before you.

 

The average player finds flaw in this enemy, its either over the top problematic, or a complete joke. With Nullifiers, there is no middle ground, its black or white. THATS why their flawed, at least in my opinion. The fact that they can 1-2 shot th more squishy frames, thats ignorable and can be placed in the relm of "git gud", for thats something that small adaptation can fix. HOWEVER, their ability is a bit drastic. It essentially cancels out the use and function of your warframe entirely, and forces you to rely on tactics you really arnt supposed to have to, when w bring up that the lement of the game is to play a role. They take that away, they dont allow you to play a role. THATS why theyre problematic

 

And a little factor to include is that by themselves their a total joke (white), and with even a small congregation they become a mobile bulwark (black). 

[TARINunit9]

31 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

I come here with an unpopular opinion that Nullifiers are fine as is and shouldn't be touched. However trite the "git gud" phrase sounds, it is true.

24 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Not to say that WF doesn't have objective flaws, but Nullifiers are not one of them.

If nullies were a legitimate challenge, I might agree with you. Nullies provide a challenge, yes, but not a challenge I could label as "legitimate"

There's a difference, and the difference is why saying "Nullies are fine, you just need to git gud" doesn't really hold up

[(PSN)Saobie3]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

If nullies were a legitimate challenge, I might agree with you. Nullies provide a challenge, yes, but not a challenge I could label as "legitimate"

There's a difference, and the difference is why saying "Nullies are fine, you just need to git gud" doesn't really hold up

Thats whats called Artificial Difficulty. Something set into the game to force difficulty abruptly (i think, dont quote me on that)

[CrazyCatLad]

-Playing as Atlas yesterday.

-Had two Rumblers roaming around

-Deliberately avoid bubble so I could shoot it

-One Dumbler walks into the bubble and both get nullified. Other one wasn't even close.

 

WTF?  That shouldn't nullify both....

 

Stuff like that is why nullies are stupid. They need to be made more interesting. Nul Combas are usually fine but their aura isn't defined. I'd rather it be Pause Comba (aka pause the ability until dead or out of range).

Edited June 27, 2016 by Lanieu

[RS219]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)Saobie3 said:

Ancients and Scorpions and their cyborg-targeting reticules-

Surely you exaggerate, they're not that hard. Scorpions perhaps because they don't telegraph their imminent grapple (though it's practically the first thing they do when they get in range), but ancients are particularly easy to dodge - just hear for that sound, and if you even see it rear back you have half a second to roll/slide sideways perpendicular to the ancient. Heck, if you happen to have a weapon that protects against knockback (Galatine Scindo etc.) swinging that makes you immune to grapples too.

And as annoying as I think the nullifiers are I suppose they fit the Corpus' theme of being technologically focused. Everyone says how they're such high risk enemies what with closing in to melee but there's nothing to stop anyone from just pouring bullets while behind cover on the bubble until it breaks (aside from ammo consumption issues, esp. with crit weapons like Soma Prime).

[(PSN)Saobie3]

1 minute ago, RS219 said:

Surely you exaggerate, they're not that hard. Scorpions perhaps because they don't telegraph their imminent grapple (though it's practically the first thing they do when they get in range), but ancients are particularly easy to dodge - just hear for that sound, and if you even see it rear back you have half a second to roll/slide sideways perpendicular to the ancient. Heck, if you happen to have a weapon that protects against knockback (Galatine Scindo etc.) swinging that makes you immune to grapples too.

And as annoying as I think the nullifiers are I suppose they fit the Corpus' theme of being technologically focused. Everyone says how they're such high risk enemies what with closing in to melee but there's nothing to stop anyone from just pouring bullets while behind cover on the bubble until it breaks (aside from ammo consumption issues, esp. with crit weapons like Soma Prime).

No exaggeration here. I actually find Ancients MORE annoying. And its not like i havnt tried avoiding it. The problem is for both units it comes with next to no warning. If you are not already aware of said enemy being there AND aware your in range, theres an extremely likely chance you will get grappled. Iv been up and behind an Ancient, more than once, and still got grappled by his back-arm grapple because thats th only logical explanation; that they have a 3rd arm on their back. My beef with them is that, even if i do the same thing to avoid the grapple that worked on time, it almost never works twice. Every time iv avoided it has been pure luck.

 

Try this: When you see an Ancient going to grapple you, knock it down with whatever, Sonicor mayb. Revel, as it somehow still grapples you evn though you blew it into the stratosphere. Magic.

 

 

[TARINunit9]

35 minutes ago, RS219 said:

Surely you exaggerate, they're not that hard. Scorpions perhaps because they don't telegraph their imminent grapple (though it's practically the first thing they do when they get in range), but ancients are particularly easy to dodge - just hear for that sound, and if you even see it rear back you have half a second to roll/slide sideways perpendicular to the ancient. Heck, if you happen to have a weapon that protects against knockback (Galatine Scindo etc.) swinging that makes you immune to grapples too.

And as annoying as I think the nullifiers are I suppose they fit the Corpus' theme of being technologically focused. Everyone says how they're such high risk enemies what with closing in to melee but there's nothing to stop anyone from just pouring bullets while behind cover on the bubble until it breaks (aside from ammo consumption issues, esp. with crit weapons like Soma Prime).

I mostly agree with you on the grappling hook enemies. They aren't "fundamentally flawed", just running a bugged animation. Their grappling hook doesn't set its vector until the very end of the animation, resulting in lots and LOTS of players dodging too early, earlier than they would need to dodge if the animation was synched properly

And while you can pop nullie bubbles with high rate-of-fire weapons, it makes low rate-of-fire weapons like bows almost useless against Corpus. It goes back to my thesis: it just takes away your options, and having your options taken away isn't fun

[Rakosta_Kai]

Commanders.

I am glad I see them the least as I don't think I could take seeing them much more often than I do now.

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

6 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Commanders.

I am glad I see them the least as I don't think I could take seeing them much more often than I do now.

While annoying, I wouldn't exactly call them flawed. (Though I haven't had much trouble with them that much.)

[Hypernaut1]

I Like how people like to make up nebulous terms like "artificial difficulty" to prove a point as if it means anything.

According to DE, nullifiers are working as intended. They force you to actually THINK.