Fundamentally flawed enemies

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

14 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

There is no functional defense against their ability aside from outright killing them and they have a tendency to lurk.

That's flawed imo.

As I said, I never much trouble with them, so I can't really give an opinion.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you have an issue with that load out, that's on you. 

I can claim I like to use the mk1 Bratton. That doesn't mean the game needs to cater to me, especially if I'm in the minority.  

The game gives us many weapons and options to deal with the challenges of the game.

Also....you can STILL kill nullifiers with that loadout.

In terms of completing missions I don't have a problem, that's why I use it.  However once the nullifiers get thick I spend most to all of my time on the sonicor because it deals with all the fricking bubbles.  The sonicor is supposed to be the SECONDARY and the vectis is supposed to be the PRIMARY.  My problem is that I am forced to use my secondary at the almost total exclusion of my primary because of a single enemy.  Does that sound right to you?

False comparison.  The mk1 braton is the bottom of it's class and is truly ineffective.  There are several very good reasons that weapon should be bad.  The closest top tier analogs are the soma prime and boltor prime and both are very effective at dealing with nullifiers.  The Vectis Prime is also at the top of it's class but is rendered useless by an arbitrary damage cap.

Quite true, but sorties, raids, and other end game content is where players should be forced to specialize their loadouts.  Half of the game has nullifiers (2 of the 4 factions), so half of the game requires that I do not use low fire rate weapons like my vectis.  If I want to run 60 mins t4 survival/ 60 wave t4 def I should be able to use anything I want BECAUSE I have to GRIND for HOURS in these missions.

Of course I can kill nullifiers with that loadout.  Please reread paragraph 1.

[RS219]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

A Boltor Prime dealing 400 damage per hit and an Opticor dealing 10k will pop the bubble in the same number of shots. And since that number of shots is more than 5, it makes the Opticor near-useless

(Not that I even like the Opticor, it's just the best example. Your Cernos example is actually really bad because it would take, no joke, about seven seconds to pop the bubble, compared to about three with the Soma Prime)

True, I was thinking in terms of ammo efficiency at the time. Sure the Soma Prime would be faster but those 80 shots on the bubble could have gone into wasting a small squad of crewmen and proxies. And if you don't have ammo mutation, multiple nullifiers would easily chew out your entire ammo reserve.

[-N7-Leonhart]

2 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Yep, sure. Go in and lose all the buffs/debuffs going thus waste energy on recasting over and over and over again.

Brilliant solution. 10/10

Not all frames have buffs / debuffs on. And if they do, just use other tools, like fast fire ranged weapons, there is like 100 variations. In the case of nullifiers, there are always tools that make short work of them. But in the case of very high level grineer, only a very narrow range of tools can be effective, such as those that have very high status chance.

[AtomBlade]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

In terms of completing missions I don't have a problem, that's why I use it.  However once the nullifiers get thick I spend most to all of my time on the sonicor because it deals with all the fricking bubbles.  The sonicor is supposed to be the SECONDARY and the vectis is supposed to be the PRIMARY.  My problem is that I am forced to use my secondary at the almost total exclusion of my primary because of a single enemy.  Does that sound right to you?

False comparison.  The mk1 braton is the bottom of it's class and is truly ineffective.  There are several very good reasons that weapon should be bad.  The closest top tier analogs are the soma prime and boltor prime and both are very effective at dealing with nullifiers.  The Vectis Prime is also at the top of it's class but is rendered useless by an arbitrary damage cap.

Quite true, but sorties, raids, and other end game content is where players should be forced to specialize their loadouts.  Half of the game has nullifiers (2 of the 4 factions), so half of the game requires that I do not use low fire rate weapons like my vectis.  If I want to run 60 mins t4 survival/ 60 wave t4 def I should be able to use anything I want BECAUSE I have to GRIND for HOURS in these missions.

Of course I can kill nullifiers with that loadout.  Please reread paragraph 1.

Dear god, not an enemy that forces you to *gasp* actually use the secondary! Actually having to use a secondary weapon in some cases is not that bad. Even a forma'd lato is all you need to take out a nullie, so I don't see whats wrong here. Besides, the vectis is the fastest sniper rifle in the game, able to fire once per second, or faster if you buff the reload speed. It may take a lot of ammo, but you can still kill an enemy with that.

 

And the comparison between the vectis prime vs soma/boltor. Look, the latter are just better weapons. Snipers, tbh, are not very good late game, they lack the ability to deal damage to multiple targets in a short amount of time. And if you are using a vectis in T4 survival... Well I am impressed that you are killing enough to keep your life support up.

 

People in this thread are over exaggerating the strength of nullies. The only legitimate complaint I've seen so far has been the one about atlas' golems. Seriously, just change your strategy. Maybe just hop into the bubble and bullet jump inside to knock eveyone down, then go inside and use melee, how about discussing better ways to deal with them rather than saying the game is broken and needs to change, cause I think you guys are just doing it wrong.

 

 

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 minute ago, AtomBlade said:

Dear god, not an enemy that forces you to *gasp* actually use the secondary! Actually having to use a secondary weapon in some cases is not that bad. Even a forma'd lato is all you need to take out a nullie, so I don't see whats wrong here. Besides, the vectis is the fastest sniper rifle in the game, able to fire once per second, or faster if you buff the reload speed. It may take a lot of ammo, but you can still kill an enemy with that.

 

And the comparison between the vectis prime vs soma/boltor. Look, the latter are just better weapons. Snipers, tbh, are not very good late game, they lack the ability to deal damage to multiple targets in a short amount of time. And if you are using a vectis in T4 survival... Well I am impressed that you are killing enough to keep your life support up.

LOVE the contradiction you have in your very own post. "Sniper rifles, bows and non-Tonkor launchers are bad so let's defend the enemy which makes them even f***ng worse" That's amazing.

Nullifiers are there to prevent ability spam. I can support that. But sod off my damn guns.

25 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Not all frames have buffs / debuffs on. And if they do, just use other tools, like fast fire ranged weapons, there is like 100 variations. In the case of nullifiers, there are always tools that make short work of them. But in the case of very high level grineer, only a very narrow range of tools can be effective, such as those that have very high status chance.

High level grineer can mostly be negated by powers of about 95% of frames (and ones which can't are normally bad against anything else) and any weapon class. Sure MK1 braton is gonna fail but so will MK1 Paris or Strun. Problems begin when one class dominates every other. Problems further increase exponentially when said class is already a noobtube to begin with. Problem reaches Nullicancer levels of bad when "dominated" weapon classes are the one which require smart play and/or involve serious risks on their own.

[Hypernaut1]

5-10 shots max to pop a bubble and the crew man inside is squishy. Many of you are truly exaggerating the difficulty of nullifiers. 

Most players can deal with them fine, if you can't then YOU are the one that needs to adjust your strategy. There are weapons that take them down in one hit.

[Xzorn]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Saobie3 said:

We all know HOW to kill these enemies, i dont think any of us here are stupid enough to not employ basic and obvious tactic.

 

The problem is how inconsistantly said tactics seem to work. Especially in regards to the cyborgish ancients and telepathic scorpions

 

 

"Like, for instance, Ancients and Scorpions and their cyborg-targeting reticules that allow them to grapple us from a -87.66456 degree angle moving 476mph with no warning and using it the split second a Tenno crosses their telepathic vision sphere."
 

Apparently not. Ancients and Scorpions always harpoon at the exact same distance, it's the very first attack they will ALWAYS use and they not only telegraph the attack but it has travel time. The only time getting Harpooned is excusable is when there's multiple from different directions or altitudes and you happen to be shooting at the time.

My point also wasn't to write a guide, it's to show how some enemies are flawed in designed because there's little a player can do besides "cheese" them. You have no choice but to CC cheese lvl 1725 Gunners while at the same time you can straight up skill fight Bombers with no abilities.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

2 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

just use other tools, like fast fire ranged weapons

Those are the only tool.  That's the problem.  Melee is just unnecessary risk, not from the nullifier, but from all the heavies under the shield.

2 hours ago, AtomBlade said:

Dear god, not an enemy that forces you to *gasp* actually use the secondary! Actually having to use a secondary weapon in some cases is not that bad. Even a forma'd lato is all you need to take out a nullie, so I don't see whats wrong here. Besides, the vectis is the fastest sniper rifle in the game, able to fire once per second, or faster if you buff the reload speed. It may take a lot of ammo, but you can still kill an enemy with that.

If the spawn rate of nullifiers were far lower and it was truly A SINGLE nullifier this would not be an issue.  As it is in mid level void mission I must use the SECONDARY 80% OF THE TIME without having the choice of using my Vectis.  You clearly don't use snipers so you also have not tired to fight 2-4 nullies with a vectis (It's literally impossible without just shotgunning them with a sniper).  I get that you don't care about snipers, but don't tell those of us who want to use them just to deal with it.

2 hours ago, AtomBlade said:

And the comparison between the vectis prime vs soma/boltor. Look, the latter are just better weapons. Snipers, tbh, are not very good late game, they lack the ability to deal damage to multiple targets in a short amount of time. And if you are using a vectis in T4 survival... Well I am impressed that you are killing enough to keep your life support up.

Like I said I get that you don't use or care about snipers, but some of us like the challenge.  You are 100% right that the boltor and soma are better and easier to use weapons.  Why should the vectis be also be far worse against nullifiers in addition to just being flat weaker?

2 hours ago, AtomBlade said:

People in this thread are over exaggerating the strength of nullies. The only legitimate complaint I've seen so far has been the one about atlas' golems. Seriously, just change your strategy. Maybe just hop into the bubble and bullet jump inside to knock eveyone down, then go inside and use melee, how about discussing better ways to deal with them rather than saying the game is broken and needs to change, cause I think you guys are just doing it wrong.

Never in any of this did I say they were difficult enemies.  First off I usually don't bother reviving people who use your melee strategy.  It is tantamount to suicide and they need to learn to stop.  It is quite easy to deal with nullifiers and the heavy units under the shield.  My complaint that you are ignoring is that there is only ONE way of doing that in a game based around player choice.  I hate using the same weapons over and over again while I'm grinding out parts.  There is no reason snipers can't be more effective against nully bubbles.

[TARINunit9]

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

yet again, like a broken record - Weapons being able to pierce Nullifier Shields defeats their entire existence.

Weapons being able to pierce nullie bubbles right out of the foundry defeats their entire existence. FIFY. Shred and Metal Auger aren't exactly popular mods these days

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

See, I think that's a sign of a WELL DESIGNED enemy. It gives you something more to think about than "MOAR POWER". There should be more enemies where the best answer isn't simply "tonkor".

It would be, if the numbers involved weren't so bad. I've been asking for a similar model to apply to Stalker, but only because Stalker is a BOSS FIGHT, not a normal enemy. As it stands my favorite weapons are bows but I can barely touch my bows because of the exceedingly long time-to-pop (basically everything @(PS4)Final_Dragon01 said applies to my precious bow weapons too)

11 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Commanders: Hit-scan weapon = Kill before it kills you, LoS, Targeted teleport + Stun -Fail design

Oooh! Commanders! Can't think of how I forgot that one! Yeah, that enemy is so bad, and DE just utterly refuses to admit it was a horrible idea from day one. Shall I make a post about that?

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

5-10 shots max to pop a bubble and the crew man inside is squishy. Many of you are truly exaggerating the difficulty of nullifiers. 

Most players can deal with them fine, if you can't then YOU are the one that needs to adjust your strategy. There are weapons that take them down in one hit.

Never did I say they were difficult at all.  They are quite easy to kill, but there is only one way to kill them.  It's not a difficulty problem, it's a weapon selection problem.  Your solution is just to not use the weapons I want to use.  Your solution is to just have everyone use the few top tier weapons and look down on anyone who wants something different.  I don't like your solution.

Edited June 25, 2016 by (PS4)Final_Dragon01

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Shred and Metal Auger aren't exactly popular mods these days

[MokutoBunshi]

23 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK, so we all have those enemies we all hate because they're just plain not fun or fair to fight against. Oftentimes it seems to me it's because DE is sticking with an idea that sounded awesome on paper but in practice was flawed at the fundamental level. ITT, objective reasons why enemies are so annoying or unfair

Let's start this out with the obvious:
Nullifiers.
-The intention: Nullifiers provide special defense against firearms and ranged weapons, encouraging players to move into melee (a risky but rewarding prospect if the bubble is full of other enemies) and forcing players to rely on their skills rather than their frame's powers. Nullifiers, despite having Proto-shield type shields, are fragile by themselves and can be swiftly dispatched once you get past their Lankas. The bubbles have 2500 health, and cap all damage at 600, but also have a minimum damage cap of 100, so they scale perfectly
-The reality: Nullifier shields do nothing but make players feel like they aren't allowed to use certain gear or combat options. The regenerating shields are substantially worse for player with slower-firing weapons like the Opticor or Penta. They purge buffs instantly, block all power-related damage, erase most debuffs, and even destroy stuff that was set up outside the nullie bubble like Atlas's Rumblers. All they do is make you feel like you're wasting ammo and energy. They aren't a special challenge to focus on, they're just rich Corpus bratty bullies who take away all your best toys

My personal suggestions:
*Make nullie bubbles vulnerable to Punch-through
*Make all buffs and other such powers only shut off temporarily. For example, if Chroma sets up a Vex Armor and manages to build up 200 Scorn and Rage, instead of purging his Vex Armor outright and forcing a recast the nullie bubble just temporarily sets his Scorn and Rage to zero until he either kills the nullie or moves out of the bubble

Punch through FTW.

 

]\'[

[(PSN)Saobie3]

Gees this blew up overnight. Without reading any new comments:

 

Lets bring up the New Loka death squad. This has to be the 5th tim now theyve come for my babies and killed me before i could even preform an action. They must tick like 65 straight hp damage per second because in a handful of movements i was dead. Grapple, followed by arson eximus fire knockdown, and then dead. Couldnt move, couldnt Prime (was using Nova), couldnt shoot before i died. And before i posted this i asked a few other Impure friends about it, all have the same opinion: If New Loka comes after you, just expect to die. You cant do anything about it, especially if you are solo.

 

THATS a flaw. An enemy that can negate you from doing any action and entirely ignore any defenses, to kill you in a small instance of time. One that, if spawned, people expect to just die. Ancients are annoying enough. Not overpowered or anything, just annoying with that telepathic targeting ability to grapple any tenno around a corner. Just that, if an enemy exists that can just flat kill you, no obvious counter or tactic, what are you supposed to do?

 

And yea, i might have been able to distance myself to get away from their aura. But after exiting the aura the toxic proc ticks for 8sec, which is still unsurvivable for the majority of squishier frames. Thats just plain stupid

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

 

  Hide contents

 

A year ago I wouldn't have said what I said. But I don't see anyone's builds having any punch through in 2016

[(PSN)Saobie3]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

A year ago I wouldn't have said what I said. But I don't see anyone's builds having any punch through in 2016

My Supra has punch, and only because i could increase both punch and Rof, instead of one or the other (shred). Thats it, no other weapon i commonly use has punch.

 

Id say your right. Most would just add more damage instead of punch, its not all that great anyways unless you enemies are lined up

[TrickshotMcGee]

I'm just gonna say-- Nullies, Combas, Scrambus, Bursas, and all the bullsh*t enemies wouldn't exist if Warframes weren't so grossly powerful. If we didn't have overwhelming and ridiculous levels of power, we wouldn't need enemies to check those powers. The problem isn't the enemies - those do exactly what they're supposed to - the problem is US. We use cheese and OP things that make content otherwise too easy, so there has to be something that can make it a lot less easy. Hence, these "flawed" enemies come to exist. 

Don't expect them to be nerfed, because they aren't the problem. They're a balance to the real problem of players doing absurd levels of damage and nuking entire maps with ease. 

[(PSN)Saobie3]

So Warframes are the reason problematic enemies exist. But is that our fault?

 

Honestly i like Bursas. Theyre powerful and approaching it intelligently can yield great results (IE getting to that panel behind them and whacking it). They make me think "Crap, thats a problem"

 

Unlike Nullies, Ancients, and Scorps, who commonly put the phrases "Oh great" and "Of F-ing course" in my head. Ancients and Scorps CAN be approached in a way that makes their annoying grapple not a big deal, but since they spawn vastly more often than the Bursa, even employing tactful thinking can be rendered useless, since if thers say 5 of them, how are you going to dodge being grappled now? Nullies are pretty much the same thing except "kill it before it lays eggs" is my mentallity. Kill it before it gets near me, or before enemies get near it. When one of those two happens, strategy goes out the window and cheese tactics are really the only reliable solution.

 

In all honestly i dont think Warframes or Tenno are OP. Read up about the lore, and our vastly superior powers make quite a lot of sense. The problem here, in my opinion, is that DE's way of checking and balancing said power is usually flawed. Only a few heavies are a solid, well-designed counter to us imo

[taiiat]

47 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

A year ago I wouldn't have said what I said. But I don't see anyone's builds having any punch through in 2016

don't judge it by the Forums - people asking for 'builds' on the Forums are not the Players doing stuff with any seriousness at all.

[as, if a Player doesn't know what they're doing but they 'solve' that by asking to be spoonfed - then they're not likely to do anything out of the ordinary, because 99.100% of responses will be the basic cookie cutter because it works.]

Edited June 25, 2016 by taiiat

[(PSN)Saobie3]

Just now, taiiat said:

don't judge it by the Forums - people asking for 'builds' on the Forums are not the Players doing stuff with any seriousness at all.

Except i ask for builds on the forums, and i do things with seriousness on them (mostly sortie and T4 whatevers)

 

Not everyone knows how to build each individual weapon yno :P I didnt think Crit would go well on my Akstiletto Prime but look at it now

[TARINunit9]

19 minutes ago, taiiat said:

don't judge it by the Forums

I don't

[taiiat]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't

you can't see other peoples' Mod Loadouts while playing, :p
asking 0.01% of the Players what Mods they're using is as unsuccessful as it usually is.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

15 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

I'm just gonna say-- Nullies, Combas, Scrambus, Bursas, and all the bullsh*t enemies wouldn't exist if Warframes weren't so grossly powerful. If we didn't have overwhelming and ridiculous levels of power, we wouldn't need enemies to check those powers. The problem isn't the enemies - those do exactly what they're supposed to - the problem is US. We use cheese and OP things that make content otherwise too easy, so there has to be something that can make it a lot less easy. Hence, these "flawed" enemies come to exist. 

Don't expect them to be nerfed, because they aren't the problem. They're a balance to the real problem of players doing absurd levels of damage and nuking entire maps with ease. 

You are not wrong.  But I disagree with you on two fronts.

First, warframes are OP, but I don't think there is a problem with that.  Just look the fan concept threads.  Would it not be fun to play with a reality altering warframe?  Of course it would be and that's the point of the game.  It would be a mistake to mimic Destiny and just make nothing good.  Over there there was no point in acquiring more than your first usable legendary weapon because it performed just as well as any legendary in the game.  Nerfing everything into the ground would just make the game not fun any more.

Second, grinding is a part of warframe.  I don't think there is anything wrong with there being efficient methods of grinding.  I would have hated having to use every single melee weapon I ranked up.  I never attacked once with 80% of em.  They just didn't interest me and I was glad I could quickly finish them.

My solution would be to make the BS enemies, as you put it, rare minibosses that have hard spawn caps in normal play.

[TrickshotMcGee]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

I don't think there is a problem with that.  Just look the fan concept threads.  Would it not be fun to play with a reality altering warframe?  Of course it would be and that's the point of the game.

I agree. It's FUN to play with something so powerful, to be a truly fearsome force is enjoyable, and is actually a good source of Warframe's appeal. I can appreciate that and it's definitely one of the things that drew me to the game in the first place. The problem with that is, in order for the game to remain fun, there needs to be some form of check to all power. An enemy or set of enemies that can make your day a lot harder. Just as we have powers and OP weapons, the enemy has trump cards to those items, counters, and that's necessary. If all the challenging enemies were removed from play, then everything would simply be far too easy. They serve a purpose, and the intent was to add a challenge to otherwise unchallenged players. Only way to remove their need is to make us less daunting and less able to completely wipe the enemy out of existence.

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Second, grinding is a part of warframe.  I don't think there is anything wrong with there being efficient methods of grinding.  I would have hated having to use every single melee weapon I ranked up.  I never attacked once with 80% of em.  They just didn't interest me and I was glad I could quickly finish them.

Not sure where that ties into my post. I didn't really mention grinding. But, I do have to say I disagree with most of the "efficient" methods of grinding. That's the point of mastery- to actually MASTER everything. Shared affinity, IMO, shouldn't exist on any scale, because it makes it so "mastery" becomes "well I had it equipped while I leeched others wiping the map so I should get credit". All it does is make people not want to use any weapons outside of their OP mass-killing weapons. That's part of the reason we actually need these enemies. We have the meta weapons - Tonkor, Synoid Simulor, etc - and they're strong as hell, but they can't deal with some enemies, so you ask for the enemies to be nerfed so you can stay in your comfort zone and not have to change tactics. That is a toxic as hell way to think. Honestly, everyone should be forced to use the weapons they want to level, because that was the whole idea behind the system, and it forces people to use weapons outside of the meta, and explore other things a bit.

No, these enemies should not be rare, or nerfed, or removed, or changed in any way. They were designed to make us think, and most people blatantly refuse to do that. They refuse to change their loadout because a single enemy type inconveniences them. It's easier, in their eyes, to simply ask for the enemy to be removed. The ONLY way they get removed is if they're no longer needed, and players can't simply delete opposing forces. When our power is not out of hand (because there IS a statute of limitations on such things) then there doesn't need to be anything to check that power. Now, this DOES NOT mean we need to be completely nerfed into the ground, but it does mean that we need to be considerably less powerful than we currently are. It's simple. I don't understand why people can't grasp that concept. Great powers have to have equal checks. Something less powerful requires less resistance. 

[TARINunit9]

56 minutes ago, taiiat said:

you can't see other peoples' Mod Loadouts while playing, :p
asking 0.01% of the Players what Mods they're using is as unsuccessful as it usually is.

Geeze, unnaturally stubborn? There's more places to shoot the breeze and get opinions on what mods are helpful and what people have fun running than just the supposedly-elitist cheesemongers in Players-Helping-Players