Why Nullifiers?

[Wolfwaffe]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Magician_NG said:

[DE]Scott put them in the game because he got tired of people saying the game was too easy.

I don't get it.

When there were no nullifiers, people complained how the game was too easy.

With nulifiers, people complain that the game is too hard because REASONS!^TM

 

What's all the fuss about anyway? I mean, even in T4, even on Sortie, those huge bubbles don't live longer than similar bubbles on Venus.

[NightElve]

51 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

I dunno, this sounded like your Volt got beaten

 

 

And as far as weapon choice goes, you have three slots, any one can be used as your anti-nullifier weapon, take a melee that can kill them with a fast spin attack, or something like the Glaive that ignores their bubbles, or you can equip a gun with a fast fire rate as a primary or secondary, you still have the freedom to pick the weapons that you want to use, as long as you remember what you will be fighting. You don't take magnetic damage when you fight Infested, so how is remembering to pick one anti-nullifier weapon vs corrupted or corpus any different?

Additionally the alternative to nullifiers is to either give more enemies the ability resist, or ignore our powers, on an individual level, or to substantially nerf almost every power in the game. Neither of those two solutions is really any better than the nullifiers themselves, and the second would cause this place to explode.

You say the meta they create is the problem? If that was the case there would be far more emphasis on the stuff that easily handles them than there currently is. 

All this opinions about how to counter nullifiers are not part of what we are complaining about, that's why Warframe will FOREVER be in a nerf cycle, i easily and majority of the community deals well with nullifiers, our main issue is they are annoying/and break the fun in the game/they make us stick to strict meta's in the game/ out of the tonne of weapons available/ you have to carry a specific type of weapon/ take RNG and how many times you play Void, how many times will you carry the same weapon? how many times will you use some specific frames, that's most weapons in the game are referred to us Mastery Fodder, that we Know, and Camping became a thing, then over powered weapons? 

[cghawk]

3 minutes ago, Wolfwaffe said:

I don't get it.

When there were no nullifiers, people complained how the game was too easy.

With nulifiers, people complain that the game is too hard because REASONS!^TM

 

What's all the fuss about anyway? I mean, even in T4, even on Sortie, those huge bubbles don't live longer than similar bubbles on Venus.

it's not well thought out difficulty

 

that's like saying ''omg I'm so good at cod this is to easy'' and then they developers say ''here have a knife and fight these 5 guys all with guns in a open field'' sure it's bloody difficult now but it's not a well thought out difficulty mode, it's just nerfing you and then saying ''hah look how good we are at making it difficult''

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I don't think you realize how many weapons can deal with nullifiers...

...like practically ALL of them. 

According to the wiki, the bubble goes down in 5 -8 shots if you reach its damage cap. That's it. Snipers can deal with them fine, bows can deal with them fine.

Edited June 28, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed meta-complaint

[NightElve]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I don't think you realize how many weapons can deal with nullifiers...

i use Hikou, Staticor mostly,  have built all/most of the weapons, as i said earlier dealing with them is not an issue, Nullifiers are not an issue for me, i take them out fairly easily, and that's the same to everyone playing the game, unless it's the MR 5 players, still learning the game, i said they are annoying and don't pose any difficulty, they just ruin the fun for me, achieving MR 20 and very close to 21 i'm trying out the non-meta frames, and very honestly they aren't fun at all, to use with Nullifiers around, why do you think most of the community refers some weapons and frames junk? they are there as resource sink-holes and server no specific purpose, that's where my rant is coming from, if you get what i mean, for all you who support DE and want to have fun, i think you'd get my reasoning behind this,

Please Note i never said anything about not able to deal with them, their presence is what annoys me... Nullifiers are also no way balancing the game(i can stay and people stay for 5 hours in the game plus, it's even more about endurance, what role do nullies serve other than makes players use/stick to certain Meta's?? and in the end increase resource sink-holes for junk weapons and frames, that people always complain about, but they are still built and later dropper to the ever increasing pile of junk, and you'd continue playing and grinding for more..

Edited June 28, 2016 by NightElve

[VoidNomade]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

...like practically ALL of them. 

According to the wiki, the bubble goes down in 5 -8 shots if you reach its damage cap. That's it. Snipers can deal with them fine, bows can deal with them fine.

Because there's only a single nullifyer I  the whole mission right lol

[NightElve]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

...like practically ALL of them. 

According to the wiki, the bubble goes down in 5 -8 shots if you reach its damage cap. That's it. Snipers can deal with them fine, bows can deal with them fine.

i guess you carry a Dera vandal and Bronco to a survival, or run with Staticor and Soma and 4 other weapons in your load out for and entire year? and if you even bothered looking at the people commenting here, they are high MR players  who have no trouble dealing with Nullies and don't have to quote wiki... their presence is questionable for us, case and point!.

[Ciaus]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

if you can't sacrifice one weapon in your load out too deal with a special enemy type in a said mission then your short handing yourself, DE is not short handing you!

 

That's the whole damn point, I'm not *sacrificing* one weapon, I'm *limiting* myself to one type of weapon. Literally anything not semi or full auto is super sub-optimal, and the weapon swap speed means changing weapons is a big enough schlep that separating your bubble-popper and main weapon makes no sense. Also void + corpus together make up a huge portion of the game, sure you could say "just bring a tiny selection of the game's weapons", but that's just not fun and kinda BS. Yeah I should choose weapons with the right damage types etc, but to make a huge array of styles that people enjoy just not viable is dumb. Besides there is literally no intelligence in choosing the same meta thing every game for that mission type, it requires no more game knowledge than a CoD loadout as you patronisingly compare it to, what would show game understanding is having enemies that allowed one to construct a build around many different playstyles. You'd still have to know what you were doing, but at there would be *some* way of making a bow or sniper style work effectively once nullifier count gets high.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

7 minutes ago, NightElve said:

i use Hikou, Staticor mostly,  have built all/most of the weapons, as i said earlier dealing with them is not an issue, Nullifiers are not an issue for me, i take them out fairly easily, and that's the same to everyone playing the game, unless it's the MR 5 players, still learning the game, i said they are annoying and don't pose any difficulty, they just ruin the fun for me, achieving MR 20 and very close to 21 i'm trying out the non-meta frames, and very honestly they aren't fun at all, to use with Nullifiers around, why do you think most of the community refers some weapons and frames junk? they are there as resource sink-holes and server no specific purpose, that's where my rant is coming from, if you get what i mean, for all you who support DE and want to have fun, i think you'd get my reasoning behind this,

Please Note i never said anything about not able to deal with them, their presence is what annoys me... Nullifiers are also no way balancing the game(i can stay and people stay for 5 hours in the game plus, it's even more about endurance, what role do nullies serve other than makes players use/stick to certain Meta's?? and in the end increase resource sink-holes for junk weapons and frames, that people always complain about, but they are still build and later dropper to the ever increasing pile of junk, and you'd continue playing and grinding for more..

So they stop you from enjoying certain frames? I think every player has a list of frames they dislike, regardless of any single enemy. Most players also have a list of frames they're simply not good with. I hate Loki and Mirage, and it took me a long time to get good with Equinox, yet I have no complaints. Mirage and Loki aren't my style, but that doesn't mean they are bad, and Equinox being difficult to use doesn't mean she is bad. A game with so much variety is bound to have things that people hate. Nowadays, I've seen people hate on practically everything, so I recommend finding what suits your style, and getting good or not being a try-hard.

 

8 minutes ago, Ciaus said:

That's the whole damn point, I'm not *sacrificing* one weapon, I'm *limiting* myself to one type of weapon. Literally anything not semi or full auto is super sub-optimal, and the weapon swap speed means changing weapons is a big enough schlep that separating your bubble-popper and main weapon makes no sense. Also void + corpus together make up a huge portion of the game, sure you could say "just bring a tiny selection of the game's weapons", but that's just not fun and kinda BS. Yeah I should choose weapons with the right damage types etc, but to make a huge array of styles that people enjoy just not viable is dumb. Besides there is literally no intelligence in choosing the same meta thing every game for that mission type, it requires no more game knowledge than a CoD loadout as you patronisingly compare it to, what would show game understanding is having enemies that allowed one to construct a build around many different playstyles. You'd still have to know what you were doing, but at there would be *some* way of making a bow or sniper style work effectively once nullifier count gets high.

Swap speed is manageable, and if you don't think so, use mods to improve it. There's an aura, and a mod for each weapon type, barring melee. You are limiting yourself when you do not have to, nor should you.

[ragingdeamon]

1 hour ago, VoidNomade said:

You're making the same mistake I said earlier in the post you've mention here. 

Again it's not about how to handle them, everybody gets it how to fight them, it's about that how you NEED to fight them is a problem plus people are generally unhappy with the design.

And this is talked over and over again since they were introduced, this us nothing new and I'm hearing the same things over and over again that have nothing to do with the core problem of their design and the weapon restrictions this unit creates.

 

do you know how wrong this paragraph sounds?

they are not hard to deal with but you feel compelled to apporach them in a way you don't like. why? you can deal with them easily with things like bows, just get inside the bubble and kill them. I don't get your point. you say it's about the playstyle you need to make them easy doesn't suit you, but I use slow weapons and I don't have a problem with them. 

[VoidNomade]

Just now, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

So they stop you from enjoying certain frames? I think every player has a list of frames they dislike, regardless of any single enemy. Most players also have a list of frames they're simply not good with. I hate Loki and Mirage, and it took me a long time to get good with Equinox, yet I have no complaints. Mirage and Loki aren't my style, but that doesn't mean they are bad, and Equinox being difficult to use doesn't mean she is bad. A game with so much variety is bound to have things that people hate. Nowadays, I've seen people hate on practically everything, so I recommend finding what suits your style, and getting good or not being a try-hard.

 

Swap speed is manageable, and if you don't think so, use mods to improve it. There's an aura, and a mod for each weapon type, barring melee. You are limiting yourself when you do not have to, nor should you.

So I'm not only forced to use specific weapons but are even forced to use very waky Mods?

It's getting better and better and those people are saying I'm limiting myself because I'm against limiting myself.... Logic help.

[VoidNomade]

2 minutes ago, ragingdeamon said:

do you know how wrong this paragraph sounds?

they are not hard to deal with but you feel compelled to apporach them in a way you don't like. why? you can deal with them easily with things like bows, just get inside the bubble and kill them. I don't get your point. you say it's about the playstyle you need to make them easy doesn't suit you, but I use slow weapons and I don't have a problem with them. 

I doubt that you fight and enjoy multiple nullifier at the same rime with a low rof weapon. That's like saying you enjoy painting your walls with a toothbrush.

[ragingdeamon]

Just now, VoidNomade said:

I doubt that you fight and enjoy multiple nullifier at the same rime with a low rof weapon. That's like saying you enjoy painting your walls with a toothbrush.

I don't dislike it either. the maximum number of nullifiers I have seen near each other is 2, and it's not that hard to kill them. also, as I said, you can go in and out of their bubble so fast that it doesn't really matter. 

and question: what if someone does enjoy it?

[Jangkrik]

The only thing that should be fixed is the damage per hit cap of their bubbles. We are forced to use high RoF weapons or dive straight into it to deal with the bubbles because of their damage per hit cap.

I personally think the nullifiers are balanced if they don't force the use of high fire rate weapons or bubble diving in dealing with them.

[ragingdeamon]

1 minute ago, Jangkrik said:

The only thing that should be fixed is the damage per hit cap of their bubbles. We are forced to use high RoF weapons or dive straight into it to deal with the bubbles because of their damage per hit cap.

I personally think the nullifiers are balanced if they don't force the use of high fire rate weapons or bubble diving in dealing with them.

why is bubble diving a problem?

[Jangkrik]

Just now, ragingdeamon said:

why is bubble diving a problem?

Because it means suicide in high level mission.

[ragingdeamon]

6 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

Because it means suicide in high level mission.

at that point you should have a team on your side to help you. at least one of you would have a fast frame to dive or a high RoF weapon to pop the bubble.

[polarity]

15 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

Because it means suicide in high level mission.

I'm going to take that as meaning 60 minute/wave T4s, because I've had no problem with them in 40 minute/wave T4s, or sorties.  If you're going to be doing those missions, then it makes sense to bring the right weapon to deal with a bubble full of bombards (jat kittag/tonkor), the same way it makes sense to bring a frost to a defense mission.

Edited June 28, 2016 by polarity

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

5 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

Because it means suicide in high level mission.

'High level mission' is pretty vague. Anything below level 60 is manageable, and anything above that is what you should more specifically prepare for anyway. Complaining because you're not setup for insane endless runs or sorties, is like complaining because Excalibur can't heal allies. Weapons and warframes are meant to be switched around like tools for combat, which they are. You don't need to stick to one or have a main. Just come prepared to whatever situation you put yourself in, or don't complain about the decision not to.

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

Nullifiers are not the real problem. They just don't lets you use your powers. The real problems are the pesky parasitic and energy leech exiluse. What the hell was DE thinking with that. You can't even buy anything to make yourself defend from them (I would buy that if it was real). They leave you without energy and then you are dead! Not even the zenurik focus school can save you from that. They should just get removed.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

10 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

Nullifiers are not the real problem. They just don't lets you use your powers. The real problems are the pesky parasitic and energy leech exiluse. What the hell was DE thinking with that. You can't even buy anything to make yourself defend from them (I would buy that if it was real). They leave you without energy and then you are dead! Not even the zenurik focus school can save you from that. They should just get removed.

YES! I don't think they should be removed, but definitely nerfed. Either way less energy drain, or energy drain is based on damage, so if they're not attacking you, you keep your energy. If there's already thread for nerfing them, I'll show my support.

[Arek_PL]

Actualy nullifiers are not that bad, worst thing about them is that bubbles are unpenetrable forcefields what make sniper weapons completly useless, if they were penetrated by punchtrought like doors, grineer shields, walls and other things they will be not that anyoing anymore

Worst thing is infested eximus ancient with large toxin aura

[Jangkrik]

54 minutes ago, ragingdeamon said:

at that point you should have a team on your side to help you. at least one of you would have a fast frame to dive or a high RoF weapon to pop the bubble.

54 minutes ago, polarity said:

I'm going to take that as meaning 60 minute/wave T4s, because I've had no problem with them in 40 minute/wave T4s, or sorties.  If you're going to be doing those missions, then it makes sense to bring the right weapon to deal with a bubble full of bombards (jat kittag), the same way it makes sense to bring a frost to a defense mission.

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

'High level mission' is pretty vague. Anything below level 60 is manageable, and anything above that is what you should more specifically prepare for anyway. Complaining because you're not setup for insane endless runs or sorties, is like complaining because Excalibur can't heal allies. Weapons and warframes are meant to be switched around like tools for combat, which they are. You don't need to stick to one or have a main. Just come prepared to whatever situation you put yourself in, or don't complain about the decision not to.

Correct. But would you rather have your equipment limited by a series of enemies (having to use CP for Grineer enemies) and gamemodes (like having to use Frost for a defense mission) or by a single type of enemies like Nullifiers? I'm saying this because I don't know of any other enemy (excluding bosses and mini bosses) that restricts your equipment selection and play style as severe as the Nullifiers, which can only be countered by high RoF weapons, bubble diving, or spamming cheap powers like fireball (which is obviously very ineffective). This is more restricting than other dangerous enemies that I know.

I'll take Corrupted Bombards as an example. They have very high armor, but they don't force you to use CP because you can still take them out using other methods like Covert Lethality, high burst damage weapons, or corrosive status procs. You also have to dispatch them quickly before they're able to do high damage to your team, but they don't force you to be Leonidas and attack them with a strong melee weapon (even though you can kill them easily with finishers) because you can snipe or CC them. This is similar to other dangerous enemies like Sapping Ospreys, Techs, Ancients, etc.

Instead of removing Nullifiers, I propose that DE remove the damage per hit cap on Nullifier bubbles to make Nullifiers less restricting and easier to counter since that cap is the only thing that makes Nullifier very annoying and dangerous to fight.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Jangkrik

[Lancars]

They where put in put in to solve a problem on the eris map interception. They changed the map so the Nulli became obsolete but they kept them. I don't know why they kept them it screws with people who don't have a high speed weapon.

[NightElve]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

'High level mission' is pretty vague. Anything below level 60 is manageable, and anything above that is what you should more specifically prepare for anyway. Complaining because you're not setup for insane endless runs or sorties, is like complaining because Excalibur can't heal allies. Weapons and warframes are meant to be switched around like tools for combat, which they are. You don't need to stick to one or have a main. Just come prepared to whatever situation you put yourself in, or don't complain about the decision not to.

btw your comments seem rude or are written in an unfriendly manner, i'm just clarifying to you my thread, don't know if you actually thread the topic, i said nullifiers are annoying and are bring no fun to the game, that majority of the community agree on. i can't even remember being killed by a nullifier, they are not even difficult to deal with,  i'm even talking of the level 1-5 nullifier if there is , i don't know how you derailed this to endless runs, i'm just pointing out they pose no challenge for me/they have never, but they are rather provoking, and annoying, i have read your entire comments and they keep pointing out about Frames, weapon loadouts, ((as i pointed out i at my mastery rank, i know how to deal with them, even the rather majority of the community know)) so comments like good fire rate weapons/punch are just redundant and baseless here, they are annoying and provide no challenge or fun, that's how most of  the players feel about them, other than that we could be complaining about Bombards, Heavy gunner, Energy leech and such..

Edited June 28, 2016 by NightElve