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[DE]Taylor

Void 2.0 Feedback [Megathread]

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Sorry to add to the list of negative feedback but I feel the need to get the point across that many of us are unhappy with this new system. While the old void could be frustrating, it had variety by way of traditional mission objectives. Void 2.0 has reduced getting Prime Parts to a timed excavation with success tied to old RNGesus on dropping reactant. It also reduced the Void as a mission location to enemy mod drops and Argon Crystal gathering, nothing more. The new concept as a whole was neat but it has become obscenely frustrating. I understand this is a co-op game but I play solo a lot so I don't have to deal with bad connections and waiting for parties.

I tried a Meso Fissure on an Ext mission solo. Bombards, Nullifiers, and Bursas started swarming me with all the knockdowns and damage from enemies that are 10 lvls HIGHER THAN LISTED. I also only got 4 reactants in 3 minutes which FAILED THE WHOLE MISSION. Sure, I didn't lose my relic but I lost all the rewards of the regular mission. What for? Does the Fissure just blow the whole map to pieces or something? If not then I should at least be able to extract and get my regular rewards.

I want to like the new system but it is infinitely more frustrating and dull than before. At the moment, I'd honestly prefer just reverting these changes unless someone has a bright idea to fix this mess. Sorry to bring this negativity to a supposedly joyous weekend for everyone but this is important that you know how we feel.

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Lets start with what I find wrong with current system:

  • Void traces cap and their drop rate is too low
  • Void traces cannot be farmed without at least 1 person having a relic
  • Relic farm is too random (less than previous key farm but still)
  • Cannot check what relics and their rarity players take into mission (less of an issue in clan more in PUGs)
  • Void doesn't seem to have any purpose now (other than farming argon crystals that is)

Now what I find good in this update:

  • We can choose what reward we want from 4 brackets/rolls
  • Going into mission with same relics seems to increase better reward chance (needs more testing)
  • No need to do long runs (sur C, MD, Def C, etc.) only to get formas or cores, now player can be rewarded only with prime parts

What would make it better (imho):

  • Increasing void traces cap (500 seems enough imho)
  • Adding "Void tears" alert that will reward void traces or drop them inside (from enemies coming from tears)
  • Adding Void Invasions that will reward void relics/traces
  • Actually increasing the chance of better drop when players have same relic and rarity in group
  • Giving each node specific relic drop (I belive there's enough nodes for that)
  •  Adding a daily/weekly alert that will allow us to significantly increase rare drop chance (like special void trace item that will increase rare drop chance even more than radiant rarity)

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Overall I like the direction the Void Fissures moves in, but it feels a bit unpolished.  It's cool having fissures pop up anywhere like alerts do, but removing the drops from the Void (unless you're doing a fissure in the Void obviously) makes me feel like there's not much point in going to the Void. 

The old void keys and the new relics seem comparable, so no issue there.  I like that you can examine a relic and see in-game what it will drop and relative drop rates.  That's notably better than the old void keys simply describing the mission you'll run and its relative difficulty. 

Speaking of difficulty though, why could I easily solo an old void T2 mission, but I cannot even begin to solo a meso (T2) fissure?  I tried three times to solo a meso fissure on Teshub in the Void.  It told me the enemies were10-20, but that may have been only for Teshub.  The fissure spat out enemies as high as 35.  Three times I tried, and three times I failed.  I was playing Ember with a fire-modded Drakgoon, and it seemed like the fissure adapted to me because it gave me Arson Eximus units.  Greeeeaat.  Simply could not kill enough to get those glowing orange balls the fissure needs before time ran out.  It's incredibly frustrating to go from easily-soloed T2 void missions to ridiculously-difficult-to-solo T2 fissure failures.

Furthermore, success of an old void mission was all it took for a crack at a prime part.  Fissures require that I complete the fissure and complete the mission.  OK, it's an extra hoop to jump though, but why can't I complete the mission if I fail at the fissure?  Failing the fissure instantly fails the mission.  I dislike that.

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Edit: Got rid of the off topic stuff, I didn't realise there would be a megathread so I made this for my own post. Also, I second all the responses that have spoken abou the nully + bombard + heavy gunner gang rape that happens whenever you seal a fissure. Lastly, this may be dumb but the 'explosion' that happens when you finally seal the fissure is incredibly undewhelming - like really, really underwhelming.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Before I start, can I just say that trying to find an actual explanation for the changes that were implemented in this update was really, really frustrating. I have returned to the game recently so I haven’t been watching streams or whatever this entire time. I could not believe how confusing it all was and I was spamming my alliance chat for answers because the DE forum posts that were up HAD NONE. I’m glad that you finally added a glossary to the original post but in the future can you assume that not the whole community understands the state of this ever changing game. Assume you are talking to super noobs so that everything can be effectively communicated – especially for newer players.

 

 

General stuff first…

 

 

The new prime item acquisition is so good in comparison to the endless void grind that was entirely at the mercy of RNG. Adding a level of certainty was desperately needed and I really commend you guys for putting in this new system that actually works first time (lol yeah that’s a little shade :D) – applause for DE everyone. The old system was super boring and really dissatisfying 99% of the time because of the crowded drops and stuff. I know you did the vault thing to get around this a little but still, when you were actually trying to get something from the void, it was rarely fun.

 

 

Relics!

 

+

Being able to see the actual odds of each item available from each relic is great. It adds a different motivation to me as a player because now I know that I can get a fang prime handle for example, in virtually one run. The enjoyment is now in the experience of the game rather than the euphoric burst of finally getting the trinity prime blueprint from your 50th run lol.

 

Additionally, I am no longer reliant upon reddit threads and the warframe wiki for drop locations of prime parts which I’m sure was your intention. The game experience is smoother now because I know the information is there and it’s certain.

 

Overall, excluding a few things a great margin of confusion has been removed around prime parts and how to get them and the predicted time investment needed to get said parts, so thumbs up.

 

-

Despite the open information about what we get from relics, what hasn’t been clear is how to get relics in the first place. I’m assuming (along with majority of the community) that they have now replaced the void key drop locations but why do we have to assume. You have reworked a sizable chunk of the game of which you have all the knowledge and we only know what you tell us (or what some poor person has to find out by playing missions over and over again). Ironically, you have sent us straight back to wiki’s and reddit in order to find out how to get this stuff which is kind of annoying. I wish you would just tell us drop locations and stop leaving it a mystery for us all to find out.

 

Furthermore, there are certain relics which feel as rare to get as T3 sabotage keys and I can’t tell if you want it that way or not. From our perspective it would be much better if they were easier to get because lets face it, we are going to be grinding a bunch anyway so making it easier won’t change that much. If you keep it the same then the problem of getting prime items will move from the RNG aspect of the rewards from void missions to the hellish grind of getting the specific relic in the first place. Not much a solution in my mind and there is more stuff that I want to say about this later (namely the void traces and refinement process). Also we don't have all the available relics and therefore not all the potential rewards available to us? 

 

 

 

The void traces

+

So the void traces are part of the system that alter the likelihood that you and I can get the rarer and more desirable prime parts via relics. Overall like the idea of this as we get to exert a bit of control over the odds of item acquisition.

 

It is abundantly clear how we get these traces and their effects which is good. Another point is that if you are trying to get a more common drop from a relic, you’re highly likely to get it so you won’t need to use this resource which so far is pretty rare to find.

 

-

I have run a few fissure missions with the sole aim of farming void traces. I don’t know exactly, but I think so far I have done around 15-20 missions and I have earned about 100 void traces altogether. Firstly, the amount of void traces you earn doesn’t seem to be effected by Nekros’ desecrate ability which is slightly disappointing so if you’re reading this and you thought of trying it, don’t bother.

 

Secondly, currently the only way to earn void traces is by doing fissure missions which is kind of time consuming if I’m honest. Most of the time you can do a mission in about 5-10 minutes, maybe more depending on your team but to go through these missions and to only get an average of about 8 void traces seems underwhelming. The only reason it is though is because of the refinement process which I will come to.

 

 

 

Refining relics

Refining relics increases or rather evens out the odds of each item dropping as a reward at the end of the mission. This is probably my least favourite part of the new system because of a mixture of the above section and the section below. It costs 25 / 50 / 100 void traces to refine a relic to varying degrees. Considering the amount of void traces you gain per fissure mission, a bit of persistence is needed to get the optimal amount.

 

One reason why this kind of annoys me is because there is no means of getting this resource other than a fissure mission. I really think that they should drop in the void in small quantities because right now, other than alerts and argon crystals, there is no incentive to play in the void.

 

Secondly, needing 100 void traces for the best chance of getting the rarest item on a relic (considering its slow acquisition rate) is a bit of a pain. It’s another layer of grind on top of keeping your relic numbers up and needs a lot of commitment for a single part. It feels a little bit like running a defence mission forever just to get that one part you need.

 

Lastly and this may be a little silly but I hate the fact that there is still RNG in this system. Refining your relic may result in you getting another bronco prime blueprint despite your time investment. It kind of puts me off and makes me really reluctant to do it – I try to close my eyes and pretend that I don’t care about the fragor prime or the trinity prime blueprint or the carrier prime cerebrum… You get my point here right. This is a huge investment for a singular part. You aren’t finished with just one part so it’s on top of trying to get the rest. Gotta catch ‘em all, ‘cause fashion frame, I want it its pretty, it’s strong etc – this is Warfrmame. The thing is, I know prime stuff is supposed to feel special so I get that it shouldn’t be easy to get but simultaneously, I can’t help but feel the long process is unnecessary.

 

Matchmaking

 

 

This is probably another annoying part about this and it’s a nice mixture of everything I have already said and that is; public prime farming has become the biggest nuisance in the game. It feels like a troll vault run back in the days when you couldn’t see if people had equipped the keys only to get to the door and find that 1337Slider_4eva didn’t bring the bleeding key that would have opened the freaking thing. Like noooo.

 

You have no way of knowing if people have refined their relics at the moment so it requires an unwise amount of trust – trust that is reserved for people you know that play the game - Most of my friends quit ages ago with me so I'm all alone lol

 

Let’s say I really want the Akstiletto prime blueprint that is the rarest drop you can get from a Lith A1 relic. To maximise my chances of getting this blueprint, I would need to refine it with 100 void traces. That is about 15 fissure missions that take about 10 minutes each. Altogether, that is 2.5 hours spent getting enough to do so (by this point I would have been half way through my 4th 40 min T4 survival mission). Ok so I’ve done it now but I know that if I play solo, I only have a 1 in 6 chance of getting it so the obvious thing to do is to play with people who have done the same thing as me to maximise our chances as a whole. Except people aren’t doing this; 80% of players right now join your squad with the wrong relic let alone refined hoping that you’ll strike gold and get something rare that they can get in on. 10% don’t care and the rest are doing this with their friends. It’s a nightmare and worst of all, it doesn’t feel all that different from the old system since nothing is guaranteed and it requires so much time investment – my T4 survival example is to highlight this.

 

So in reality, for the rarer drops, nothing has changed! It’s still a prayer sent up to RNGesus, a big dose of patience and an unhealthy tolerance for repeating the same missions over and over again. It's virtually the same process just with different names and bizzarely more steps and less variety, i.e. farm for relics/void keys, farm for void traces, refine relics, play fissure misssion/Tower missions and hope you get what you want. Why leave the most rewarding things to RNG? Isn't playing the same mission for 2.5 hours enough work to justify earning a single part (when a more common one takes about 10 minutes)? What is wrong with the void traces inversing the odds from their original state?

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On 7/8/2016 at 6:11 PM, -FV-Metheria said:
  Hide contents

CGriZZJ.jpg

What do you see here? Nothing? That's the issue. I equipped a Lith F1, but you can't see that. I think it'd be for the best if that was visible.

100% DUDE.

 

This alone has wrecked public farming

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Void traces drop rate is too low, the cap feels meaningless. All because you just upgrade a single Relic, so it feels like it takes way too much time just for a single relic, also, at the cost of 100 traces, the rare drop doesn't even get the same drop rate as others, rather, all others get the same rate but the rare drop still gets a lower drop rate (all others are around 75% of the bar, the rare at 50%).

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So... here are my issues with the new void system:

Void Fissures: the system currently is boring. Having to pick up orbs and then jumping into the fissure isn't fun. 
The worst part though is the actual closing of the fissures. 2 out of 3 missions I could not finish, because the enemies didn't drop enough orbs so I could close it. Twice I had about 20-30% progress and failed due to the time limit. This is insane! I could solo TIII and TIV void missions without ANY problems before the update. Now I can't even close those damn fissures... not because I can't kill the enemies or getting killed by them.. no, just because I can't collect enough orbs.

This currently completely destroys the fun of the game to me. There's no point in farming prime parts with this horrible system!

Nullifiers: well... there are just too many since the update it feels. If you rely on warframe spells and then also want to play melee... forget it. No fun is given.

Void Tears: obviously it feels you can get too little of them. Way to much farm/grind. Also not a interesting way to collect them.

Obtaining of relics: there should be a better way to obtain the relics you want/need. Maybe let us obtain any relics in the old void missions.

Honestly, the void 2.0 is really horrible and absolutely hurts the game. I had so much fun before... void 1.0 totally was fine for me. But void 2.0... is seriously so bad, I actually avoid playing it. I hope DE fixes the system soon.

 

Most important part: fix the void fissure system!

 

 

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On 7/8/2016 at 8:47 AM, [DE]Taylor said:

Hey there Tenno!

This megathread will be used to house all of your Void 2.0 feedback. Please be constructive, and keep the following guidelines in mind:

  • Your post must be on topic.
  • Use details, examples, and personal experiences in your feedback, as well as your counter arguments if you disagree with something in the game or with another's opinion. 
  • Leave all name calling, insults and antagonism (dev bashing) out of your post, no exceptions. It is not required or welcomed and does not fall under constructive feedback. 

If you have a bug report, please post it in the dedicated megathread:

Thanks guys!   :community: 

Really glad for this system to be implemented but in the void sabotage caches lost their charm, you'd even expect that if you are looking for some hidden cache in the void it would at least contain the chance to get orokin relics it makes that kind of mission useless if you cant even get a relic from it, i'd say that it would be nice to be able to get  relics asides from endless missions, heck even spy missions have a chance to get you a relic. i wont say gimme prime parts  from caches but why would anyone search for something that does not contain anything useful?

Other than that so far i'd rate the xpac 9/10 :)

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If I understand this update correctly I can only get prime items from doing void fissures?  So unless a level has one I won't get primed parts.  I personally don't like this for a few reasons.  I have most of the prime items and I enjoyed playing the void to get items for ducats.  I used to be able to go into t4 survival which was my favorite and get rewarded for it but from what I understand that's gone.  Now we have a random rotating selection of game types to play on. So if I don't want to play a rescue mission but the tier 4 fissure is that than sad day for me.  I feel the void should have some level of importance and you should still be able to get prime parts from it by just playing the mission.  The void fissure would have been fun as an add on to that but not as the only thing.  Often time I find the team completing the mission then spending longer than it took to completely the objective trying to find the fissure. That's backtracking is not fun or engaging.  One thing that was also fun what the risk reward element to the void the longer you stayed the harder it got and the higher risk you had at losing everything. That was exciting and engaging.

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  • Too much nullifiers and bombards, should not appear til T3. Also, random spawn of nullifiers with full bubble is ... frantic. and spawning in general makes it chaotic.
  • Couldn't equip my relic before getting in the squad, hence no drop. At least I got traces
  • Not possible to see or to check if people have their relics
  • " Create a lobby UI for fissure missions, similar to the lobby UI for 8-player raids so we can see other players' chosen relic, if any. " for relic sharing this would be an excellent idea
  • " normal goddamn Dual Kamas blueprint " as drop
  • Need to not have a max number of Void Traces
  • Relic activates as soon as you are near the fissure, need to have a "X to use Relic" so that you won't activate it by accident (happened to, it was at a corner and boom !)
  • We need a new glossaire or something
  • Void traces drop is too low/too few traces per pickup (even with a nekros)
  • -InV-igo95862 suggestion page 3 is a must need
  • Way too many kinds of relic, making Relic farming much more difficult (that's personal tho)
  • We need endless back. here is an idea : you can keep feeding it with other Relics every X minutes, with enemy scaling, and keep the mission's enemy spawn away from th fissure. Simple
  • Once a relic has been refined, we can't stack another batch of traces. that's bad.

List of main issues and some ideas to resolve them. if they were to be resolved, it would improve the newPrime farming much better !

(Personally, I like this new system although it is "unrefined".)

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Having spent a few hours farming relics, I can say I much prefer the new system to the old. I feel it is much more efficient than before, and dynamic. I do think it would help if fissures had some variety tough, beyond what mission they're already in. Anything beyond "put those in there" would help combat burnout in the long term.

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I'm definitely enjoying the Relic system, but I'm severely disappointed by the actual Void now. It's gone from being one of the most important parts of the game to being literally pointless. I hope there's something coming soon involving the Void missions, because otherwise it's just a waste of an entire tile.

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there's one thing tho where I don't have ny problem, it's the reactant. I see them perfectly, I pick them up without problem, and there's eough to me.

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I'm not sure if it's been suggested before, but I'd really like to see the maximum Void Traces scale with Mastery. Like +10 per rank or something.

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allow us to equip (if not to gear to the void relic refinement machine) the relics and after it can show like the dragon keys at the squad
also have the exceptional,flawless,radiant relics have a different name from the original maybe like
Lith V1 Exceptional Relic , Lith V1 Flawless Relic and Lith V1 Radiant Relic so we know if a refined relic is used and when not

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So... :

1) Farm about 8 missions

2) Get 100 Void Traces

3) Upgrade my relic to max

4) Do mission with maxxed relic

5) Get forma

Yeah ... they sure fixed that grind and RNG. Even Ordis is a lying dirtbag pretending it'll Schrodinger itself down to one choice.

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I have a feeling that the new Void 2.0 is going to be boring for me and other people after a while, because it is just the same. Well, it looks like I'm going to do void less after the new update comes out on ps4.

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15 hours ago, SuperGameJunky said:

Now this is where the math goes down hill.  ALL FOUR PLAYERS MUST USE THEIR KEY TO GET ONLY ONE REWARD. So with the best team it took us 10 min to complete the survival mission which was well 10 min. and then we had to go back to farming keys again.

So her is the break down for 4 KEYS YOU GET ONE Prime PART and now its ONE Part per Every 30 min no matter what you play. 

That is a 400% increase in the time to get anything. 400%!!!!!

You forgot the other part of the math. If you're doing a keyshare scenario where you all farm the same key and then attempt to do the run with it, then you have four chances to get the "wanted" or most rare item on the drop table. Assuming the same drop rates(why would they change?), this also cuts down grinding for parts by 400%. That is a 400% reduction in the time to get anything.

So yes, the efficiency of key usage goes down, but the actual, real time player efficiency of your personal time usage has shot up by a huge margin!

In the scenario you suggest, take 20 mins to farm the key and then use it, in an old keyshare scenario, that's 20 mins to get to Rotation C or the "rare" option, so 5x20 minutes - an hour and forty minutes. Now, you get that same drop rate chance done in 30 mins.

Of course, you don't get all the 'junk' you'd pick up along the way. But if you're only farming junk for ducats, why are you even bothering to 'keyshare'? You can just grab your relic and jump into a pub alert and take whatever. :) And DE's said they'll be adapting prices anyway, so the ducat farming is a bit of a silly complaint just yet. :)

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Im sure a lot of this has been said before, so my apologies for that.

I am also assuming that DE consider "one relic, (at most) one part" a fundamental point of the redesign to help combat the key proliferation.problems of the old system.

Issues

-Grind for solo

As a solo player only gets one roll on the loot table they are effectively condemned to do (on average) four times the missions thereby using four times as many relics, four times as many void traces etc. Considering how long void tear missions take to complete, arguably the grind has been increased for solo players.

-Void Traces

These drop far too little, need to waste too many relics to obtain enough to upgrade a single relic.

-Void kind of pointless

Apart from Argon whats the point now?

-Relic management

Had all the void keys before, dont have all the relic types now, farming relics etc seems, well, more tedious at the moment.

There are other issues too, ie the Void Tear missions being a bit samey, but since I dont have anything to offer as a fix for that I will leave that to others to comment on.

Suggestions
-Allow Void traces to drop in Void missions. Gives purpose to the void, helps with trace collection and quite frankly makes sense.

-Allow layers to do void tear missions without carrying any relics in the squad, in order to collect more Void traces.

-Allow players to take more than one relic into a mission. If I as a solo player am prepared to burn off more than one relic in order to gain a single part then surely thats my loss.

-The Void relic segment should provide a way for players to convert relics of one type to another, ie merge two N1's to get an N2 for example and possibly a way to break relics down to get void traces.

-I would also increase the amount of void traces a player can have at any one point in time, just to allow a little overflow, maybe 150.

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The Void 2.0 is just utter trash.

First of all I can only play the missions You allow me to play during the specific time and if I'm not interested in any of those what do You expect me to do, log in back later?

The second thing is that all "void" missions are now timed exterminates - find a portal that spits mobs at you(naturally it isn't marked anywhere on the map, because we all enjoy running around for no porpuse), spank mobs, collect the fodder, jump to feed the portal, over and over, repean n^10. So it became even more tedious that it used to be. Running endless missions was good because you can stay in the same mission for a good ammount of time. Running ext, MD, capture was always lame due to - complete the objective, run to ship, watch all the lame cutscenes, insert key and get back to mission, repeat... Now every mission is an exterminate + any other annoying objective. I would rather stay for hours in void survival I used to do than complete this tedious chore. Void was always about how long can you last, now it's how many portals will you close before pressing Alt+F4.

Ducats. Do You still remember You have those right? Do I have to explain that efficency of farming those is now below hell?

TL;DR

Instead of cleaning the void loot tables from trash as they are now, removing forma from Your belowed rotation C and adding reward scaling for the longer you stay in endless missions(the thing You talked about on many streams over and over) You just release this mess and reduced the void farm to extermination farm. Hell, why bother. There are enough fanboys to flood any thread and make it look that everyone are happy and everything is fine but if you speak your mind you're being toxic. Because you're not allowed to show a negative feedback.

 

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The concept behind void 2.0 doesn't make sense! How could you change void without even question concept, history or logic of the game?

Eliminate keys for relics was a stupid idea because these relics did not exist in the original concept of the game. You should create new items instead of eliminate existing items without any logic explanation. So, how the hell the keys became relics??

You know, when a new player starts to play Warframe he sees a cutscene with Grineers and they have keys, not relics!  

"Improve the relic" that's bullS#&$! We could just trade t1 and t2 keys at the relay with Baro and obtain t3 and t4 keys! Baro is the Void trader so THIS makes more sense. Baro could even sell some rare keys like t4 ext or t4 mobile defense.

Fissures and Traces? I think you put these on the wrong place because Lua is this way. Void is falling apart because an update? Not even a cutscene to explain these things? I think not  

So, each relic is about an era right? Because before this update each key was about corrupted enemies that protect a place with orokin artifacts. I am confused... its about protection or eras? This does not make sense, at all.   

Drops Inside the void became totally predictable without bet or surprise because the player now choose what will obtain.

Farm relics became more tedious than before (Keys)

Could you please return to the previous void because this new system is ridiculous!

 

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The void 2.0 has much bigger problems than void 1.0:

  • Same thing every time. It is mindnumbingly boring. ALREADY.
  • It's tacked on to an ordinary mission that noone cares about. The fissure is the only reason people are there.
  • The fight reduces viable warframe and weapon choices to only a few.
  • No more challenge of varied endless missions. Only one short fight matters.

The only improvement is being able to get what you want faster.

Even if tweaked, Void 2.0 still has the real potential to kill most of what was fun about Warframe we came to love. Many veteran players are likely to leave, as there is nothing of interest in this game for them any more.

The only way I see this update going forward is bringing back void 1.0 alongside void 2.0, just to have some choices in gameplay.

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Could we get a tiered enemy spawn for the relics? Something kinda like this:

  • Tier 1(Lith) could include normal assault units like butchers, crewman and lancers.
  • Tier 2 (Meso) could include all previous + Moas, Drones and Heavy Gunners
  • Tier 3(Neo) could include all previous + Nullifiers and Ancients
  • Tier 4(Axi) could include all previous + Bombards.

I feel like it would help to remove a lot of the pain involved in lower tier relics.

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None of my relics have any Mag Prime Parts. Have they been added to relic tables? It doesn't look like it. How can we get Mag Prime w/o platinum if it's only available for a very limited time and none of the keys have her parts listed on them? There has to be a way to skew relic acquisition so we can at least get relics that have limited availability (Unvaulted) items on them. I would suggest a vendor allow us to buy relics from him with the Unvaulted Prime items in their drop tables... that we can at lest have a chance to get Mag Prme and the like before they disappear. Perhaps from Barro could sell them some how (but they should be available more often than every 2 weeks). Perhaps add the functionality to Ducat Kiosks in Relays to buy special Relics with Unvaulted items listed in their tables.They should be reasonably affordable and available with ducats or maybe even void traces (if they drop more often). Right now... i don't see how i'm going to be able to get Mag Prime w/o platinum... because I don't even have a relic that gives me a shot at.

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