Power Immunity: A Development Crutch that Needs to Go Away

[BlackCoMerc]

Disclaimer: This isnt a thread about Challenge. Real or perceived. If your immediate response is "but Nullifier/Comba/Scramba/Simaris Scans/Capture arent hard: please...take it elsewhere. I'm NOT claiming they ARE hard. So your auto response to these topics will in fact be off topic. Thanks. Seriously. 

 

Design crutches are bad. In the beginning, you introduce this new idea. It works in the moment. At least, in theory. So you use it. 

But then you come across another incidence where you need to achieve the same thing. So you use this same idea again. And so it begins: The descent down the slippery slope toward "Design Crutches."

Power Immunity has become such a crutch. And its frankly ruining the game play experience.

How did you make Corpus more challenging (since they dont have armor you can just scale to the point of the absurd, since that apprently adds challenge instead of utter tedium...)? Easy: Introduce power immune enemies. All over the map. And huddle everyone else under their bubble. 

When that was not enough (according to someone who apparently simply doesnt care whether your game is actually FUN), you found MORE ways to shut down our powers on Corpus missions. Comba and Scramba were introduced, without  the slightest concession made to Nullifiers. When even THAT was not enough (because telling players how they are allowed to play your game at any given time is such a WINNING design philosophy), you gave Nullifiers MORE power. 

But it didnt stop there. Oh, no. Of course not.

Apparently, Capture wasnt challenging enough. So you added Power Immunity to the target. There is no lore based justification for this. No In-Universe reason. Its just "because video games" through and through. The design crutch "worked" once (in your opinion; a large number of your players despise it; guess whether I'm one of them). So you used the crutch again, propping up a frankly boring mission with the same crutch in the name of "challenge."

Except...you didnt achieve challenge in Capture missions any more than you did with Simaris Scans. Or with Nullifiers. Neither of these things are at all challenging. With Simaris scans, you just equip a really fast frame and run around like an idiot with your scanner plastered to your face. Literally, like an idiot. And you do this...every mission. (Alternatively you can try the trap. (Never mind that controller players CANNOT swap from the trap to the scanner in time, ever. As in, its a bug that makes doing so impossible). Our powers cant slow these mysterious, magic identikit enemies with their blue glow...but this tiny little trap sure can. 

Because THAT makes sense.

With Nullifiers, you simply charge the bubble and kill the dude inside. Every. Single. Time. You also dont take bows, snipers, shotguns, Loki, Limbo, Mesa or Nezha to high level or Sortie Corpus missions. Ever. They have been rendered strictly subpar - and arguably non viable, in many cases - for these scenarios. ALL of them. Every time. 

With Capture targets you literally just equip the fastest frame you have. Probably Arcane Rhino or Volt. And you chase the irritating psychic, magically power immune target down like the fat, out of shape sidekick cop in the direct to DVD Police Movie sequel. Every. Single. Mission.

And this is the problem with Power Immunity. Not that it makes things more challenging. It demonstrably FAILS to do that. No. It makes things UTTERLY REPETITIVE. It sets up situations where very few frames and/or weapons are viable, or where some things are so strictly superior they become ideal. And then you repeat the same experience - the same EXACT experience - over and over again.

There is no strategy. Just equip the one or two things that are best for chasing or bubble tanking. And then repeat the same tedious process over and over.

This is the place to which the design crutch of power immunity has lead us: Sheer repetition for its own sake. The definition of tedium. All in the name of challenge that has been neither defined nor successfully introduced.

The time has come to back off of power immunity. The ONLY things it accomplishes: Frustrating your community, while robbing your game of its unique identity. High level Corpus; Capture missions. These are not Warframe. These are bog standard third person shooters with a sci fi skin. If you want to play Warframe, you have to fight Grineer, and if you can remain on your feet long enough (that's a whole other design crutch that needs addressed, for similar reasons) then you get to actually use the powers that make Warframe unique.

Power Immunity is killing the fun. Fix it, please.

[Etharien]

I agree with more or less everything you have said in your post, except the narrowing of which weapons/frames are used to run the capture targets. People tend to run the most efficient frame/weapon for the job. If they don't, these design crutches won't really change their minds about what weapon/frame they bring. That being said, it's a big statement at the end saying, "fix it". But i ask you, how might you go about fixing it?

[artemisfortune]

Even when Nullifiers were spawning like crazy, I never had a problem with them. Even when I was leveling up the few snipers that were still low ranked, all I had to do was walk into their bubble and hit E. Then I can use my powers immediately to decimate any enemy that was using his bubble to their advantage.

They're their to stop the "I can slaughter so many enemies immediately!" gameplay. They're supposed to slow you down and make you think, not just press a button and make the problem go away.

Enemies like this exist in all games. Look at Dynasty Warrior, there are the common fodder that are there to keep you busy until the guys who take a few more hits and thinking come out. Same principle. Video games are not perfect, Warframe is not and will never be perfect, but it shouldn't be a cakewalk through and through.

[Circle_of_Psi]

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Power Immunity is killing the fun. Fix it, please.

Just going to put, this as the TL,DR, if I was you OP, as alot of people won't read all of it. However all Im going to say is, there is no need to fix something, if its not broken, I have my share annoyances with Nullys, but they are understandable.

Edit: As "fixing it", as in what your pertty much disrupting is by removing the Nullys, from the game fully, as them it will make all warframes stupidily OP, even Mag OP, so hate to break it to you OP, but its not killing the fun, its quite the opposite 

Edited July 25, 2016 by LegionCynex

[[DE]Momaw]

Power immunity exists because players are too powerful.  There is no challenge whatsoever when we can lock down enemies so hard that they are unable to fight back in any way. If people really want to get rid of Nullifiers and that sort of thing, then we need to also accept the fact that having powers that simply shut off combat like avalanche, radial blind, or sleep arrow, are game breaking. Enemies being immune to our best cheese is a necessary, gameplay-preserving reaction to our having best cheese.

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Power immunity exists because players are too powerful.  There is no challenge whatsoever when we can lock down enemies so hard that they are unable to fight back in any way. If people really want to get rid of Nullifiers and that sort of thing, then we need to also accept the fact that having powers that simply shut off combat like avalanche, radial blind, or sleep arrow, are game breaking. Enemies being immune to our best cheese is a necessary, gameplay-preserving reaction to our having best cheese.

I agree completely with this. In fact I just posted in another thread that I have a feeling a nerf hammer is coming for some frames around about Damage 3.0. I envision something like the following:

-Frost: (This one pains me): Avalanche will no longer Freeze over time. Or it will no longer deal damage. One of the two needs to go. I LOVE Frost Prime (a long time favorite frame, was Frost, even before the Prime version) so this is hard. But yeah...Avalanche is a game breaker. At the VERY least, it needs to have Radius removed and instead be a forward cone, which for an avalanche makes more sense. If this change were made, I could see it keep BOTH freeze and damage. 

-Loki: Dsiarm will become Radial Jam. Guns are jammed and melee enemies staggered briefly. Like a much better, more widely affecting version of Shooting Gallery. Irradiate will likely be replaced with something else, as it infringes on the territory of both Nyx AND Oberon. But it also makes sense for a Trickster frame.

-Nova: Molecular Prime will lose either its damage buff, or its Slow. One of the two. Probably the buff, but it could be the Slow down.

-Nyx: Chaos will once more become non-recastable while active. Affected enemies might or might not still have a small chance of disarm. Now, we will need to tactically keep affected enemies alive to interfere with new spawns, as opposed to this being just a glorified stun.

-Vauban: Bastille is not recastable. The radius is increased, and Repel is built in (as it should have been). The Augment now adds Razor Wire, to slash repelled and captured enemies while active. Or some such. Maybe electrified fence. 

 

Whatever happens - whether it bears any resemblance to the above or something else entirely - we NEED some frames nerfed. Because the simple fact is, Devs will always design enemy encounters for a "worst case" scenario when trying to add challenge. And right now, "Worst Case" is our shutting down the map COMPLETELY. For minutes on end. 

So we get what we have now:

-Corpus: Power Shut down around every corner, all the time

-Grineer: Constant knock down and grapple spam, and more bleeding than the Season Finale of ER. 

 

Like it or not, the Nerf hammer IS coming for some frames. And I am okay with that, because I want to PLAY the game, not watch it play itself. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Etharien]

Personally, if i were to rework nullifiers i would simply make them immune to abilities (lorewise, perhaps the massive device on their back disrupts bla bla bla.....), and instead of a bubble around them, make them shoot projectiles that disable power usage for x amount of seconds (Based on playtesting and feedback). I would also add the mechanic (lasersight) similar to the ballista's so that skillful players can avoid the shots. That way, it's minimal effort for DE, they can keep their model and just remove the bubble. As it stands, the power nullifying units are the only thing keeping players in check against corpus.

[artemisfortune]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I agree completely with this. In fact I just posted in another thread that I have a feeling a nerf hammer is coming for some frames around about Damage 3.0. I envision something like the following:

-Frost: (This one pains me): Avalanche will no longer Freeze over time. Or it will no longer deal damage. One of the two needs to go. I LOVE Frost Prime (a long time favorite frame, was Frost, even before the Prime version) so this is hard. But yeah...Avalanche is a game breaker. At the VERY least, it needs to have Radius removed and instead be a forward cone, which for an avalanche makes more sense. If this change were made, I could see it keep BOTH freeze and damage. 

-Loki: Dsiarm will become Radial Jam. Guns are jammed and melee enemies staggered briefly. Like a much better, more widely affecting version of Shooting Gallery. Irradiate will likely be replaced with something else, as it infringes on the territory of both Nyx AND Oberon. But it also makes sense for a Trickster frame.

-Nova: Molecular Prime will lose either its damage buff, or its Slow. One of the two. Probably the buff, but it could be the Slow down.

-Nyx: Chaos will once more become non-recastable while active. Affected enemies might or might not still have a small chance of disarm. Now, we will need to tactically keep affected enemies alive to interfere with new spawns, as opposed to this being just a glorified stun.

-Vauban: Bastille is not recastable. The radius is increased, and Repel is built in (as it should have been). The Augment now adds Razor Wire, to slash repelled and captured enemies while active. Or some such. Maybe electrified fence. 

 

Whatever happens - whether it bears any resemblance to the above or something else entirely - we NEED some frames nerfed. Because the simple fact is, Devs will always design enemy encounters for a "worst case" scenario when trying to add challenge. And right now, "Worst Case" is our shutting down the map COMPLETELY. For minutes on end. 

So we get what we have now:

-Corpus: Power Shut down around every corner, all the time

-Grineer: Constant knock down and grapple spam, and more bleeding than the Season Finale of ER. 

 

Like it or not, the Nerf hammer IS coming for some frames. And I am okay with that, because I want to PLAY the game, not watch it play itself. 

You know it's your choice to use the overpowered moves and build them to be overpowered, right? Have you ever tried not using a power build?

[Chroia]

21 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Power immunity exists because players are too powerful.  There is no challenge whatsoever when we can lock down enemies so hard that they are unable to fight back in any way.

True, but.
Where do people do this? Why do people do this?

Where?
In places where you get one-shot if you don't, or in places where there's no incentive to fight.
Worse, you're disincentivized to fight, since the new spawns may be capture a point across the map (or are unmezzed and may oneshot you, if overlapping with the former).

Why?
Either because you can't fight otherwise, or because fighting is at best unproductive or at worst counterproductive.

At this moment in time, endless missions are 'dead'. So people don't usually play in anything higher than S3 missions. Most of which can be completed fairly easily without perma-CC.
How often do people spam CC in 'killing' missions, here and now? I'd bet not too often.
(On the flip side, hunkering down in a Def/MD/Excav/etc. is both still necessary relevant and non-trivializing.)

So, what game modes do people spam CC in, currently, aside from Interception?
Make interception complete faster by enemies killed, and I'll bet you, dollars to doughnuts that(, aside from the people who use them as Draco-esque exp farms who'll scream bloody murder,) people will stop CCing and start killing.

 

Admittedly, I may be blinkered with the 'where's and 'why's presented.
Do tell if I missed something blatant.
 

But unless I have, the issue isn't the overpoweredness of players.
It's the damage/health asymmetry between players and enemies (so you have to, or die), and/or because the game mode mechanics actively encourage not-killing stuff. (See: LoR, compare and contrast with JV.)

Edited July 25, 2016 by Chroia

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

You know it's your choice to use the overpowered moves and build them to be overpowered, right? Have you ever tried not using a power build?

I frequently do missions without using much in the way of powers. Especially Exterminates.

The problem isnt whether or not I can choose not to USE powers. The problem is that developers CANNOT CHOOSE to just ignore their existence. 

As I said, devs will always design around the "Worst Case" scenario when trying to add challenge. They will ask themselves "What's the worst case situation wherein players might try and trivialize this new content?" Being Warframe devs, they will doubtless stumble onto some form of spamming CC. And they will design for it. Usually, by leaning on the same tired crutch once again. 

Because they HAVE to. 

As long as the grossly overpowered frames exist, this crutch will continue. Because the devs HAVE to design around the MOST powerful frames. Which means making the lesser frames suffer when not grouped up with the Big Boys and Girls of Crowd Control. Like it or not, if we ever want the power immune enemies to go away, and the fun to be restored, we have to eliminate powers capable of trivializing literally every enemy.

Edit:

All that said, I think another thing DE could do, is power RESISTANT mini bosses. 

Mix in Rathuum champions on Grineer missions. Mix in power resistant Corpus Proxies on Corpus missions. Put them in among normal spawns, in reasonable numbers. This will give all missions enemies against whom we CANNOT simply spam powers. Enemies we need to prioritize.

Of course these enemies would need both more health and armor, and proto shields. It does not have to use the same ludicrous scaling DE relies on now, but they need enough health that we  have to engage with them. 

Another idea: Non-Mobile nufflifier bubbles. These are stationary fields that deny powers. Enemies could use them as cover. The field would be about the size of the deployable Grineer bullet shield (the inflatable raft) and provide cover for only 1-2 enemies at any one time. This bubble would have health, and once the health was down, its generator would explode (non reusable). Heck, these I could support. Grineer could even have stolen the tech from Corpus and use it, though much more rarely than Corpus. 

There are ways to make sure we cannot simply spam powers. But covering whole maps in moving nullifier fields is NOT the right approach. Scaling back the power level, mini bosses, stationary cover...these are fair and offer reasonable counter play. Nullifiers really dont, and neither do half of our own powers.

Edited July 25, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[CTanGod]

4 minutes ago, Chroia said:

True, but.
Where do people do this? Why do people do this?

Where?
In places where you get one-shot if you don't, or in places where there's no incentive to fight.
Worse, you're disincentivized to fight, since the new spawns may be capture a point across the map (or are unmezzed and may oneshot you, if overlapping with the former).

Why?
Either because you can't fight otherwise, or because fighting is at best unproductive or at worst counterproductive.

At this moment in time, endless missions are 'dead'. So people don't usually play in anything higher than S3 missions.
How often do people spam CC in 'killing' missions, here and now? I'd bet not too often.
(On the flip side, hunkering down in a Def/MD/Excav/etc. is both still relevant and necessary non-trivializing.)

So, what game modes do people spam CC in, currently, aside from Interception?
Make interception capture faster by enemies killed, and I'll bet you, dollars to doughnuts that(, aside from the people who use them as Draco-esque exp farms who'll scream bloody murder,) people will stop CCing and start killing.

 

Admittedly, I may be blinkered with the 'where's and 'why's presented.
Do tell if I missed something blatant.
 

The only problem in your thought chain is that people scream bloody murder at Bladestorm because it's good at killing things, if you make CC unneeded you will bring back braindead gameplay of spam 4 (or whatever AOE kill move you've got) which we worked so hard to tone down. If anything CC SHOULD be overpowered because the abilities that provide it DO NOT also double as efficient kill moves, while endless game modes may be dead (although not really because you know RELICS) that doesn't mean CC isn't needed in Sorties or Raids.

CC shouldn't be nerfed because CC is all about teamwork, somebody blinds the enemies while another kills them, that's how it should be.

[artemisfortune]

59 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I frequently do missions without using much in the way of powers. Especially Exterminates.

The problem isnt whether or not I can choose not to USE powers. The problem is that developers CANNOT CHOOSE to just ignore their existence. 

As I said, devs will always design around the "Worst Case" scenario when trying to add challenge. They will ask themselves "What's the worst case situation wherein players might try and trivialize this new content?" Being Warframe devs, they will doubtless stumble onto some form of spamming CC. And they will design for it. Usually, by leaning on the same tired crutch once again. 

Because they HAVE to. 

As long as the grossly overpowered frames exist, this crutch will continue. Because the devs HAVE to design around the MOST powerful frames. Which means making the lesser frames suffer when not grouped up with the Big Boys and Girls of Crowd Control. Like it or not, if we ever want the power immune enemies to go away, and the fun to be restored, we have to eliminate powers capable of trivializing literally every enemy.

The problem with making an argument in this manner is you assume it's an epidemic that everyone hates. There are ways around all knockdowns (with the exception of scorpions maybe) and nullifiers. It comes down to the skill of the player, and you're right. They could nerf all frames to hell or they can make enemies to counter them, which they've been doing. No one is forcing you to play the game, but the gripes about nullifiers are far and few and stem from a sub-section of players who get frustrated by losing.

Also, as someone who owns every frame and frequently swaps between them, there is no lesser frame.

[cghawk]

21 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

Even when Nullifiers were spawning like crazy, I never had a problem with them. Even when I was leveling up the few snipers that were still low ranked, all I had to do was walk into their bubble and hit E. Then I can use my powers immediately to decimate any enemy that was using his bubble to their advantage.

They're their to stop the "I can slaughter so many enemies immediately!" gameplay. They're supposed to slow you down and make you think, not just press a button and make the problem go away.

Enemies like this exist in all games. Look at Dynasty Warrior, there are the common fodder that are there to keep you busy until the guys who take a few more hits and thinking come out. Same principle. Video games are not perfect, Warframe is not and will never be perfect, but it shouldn't be a cakewalk through and through.

the tread starter even said he doesn't have a problem with them, barely anyone does when facing nullifiers as, once again, stated in the OP, he merely states just like allot of us who want nullifiers removed, that it's simply not fun to face a nullifiers and that's the problem.

wait you have to think when facing nullifiers? last time I checked you simply press E or hold down the left mouse button if you're NOT using a high rate of fire weapon.

''not just press a button and make the problems go away'' which is exactly what high rate of fire weapons do so why can't low rate of fire weapons do it?

[CTanGod]

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I frequently do missions without using much in the way of powers. Especially Exterminates.

The problem isnt whether or not I can choose not to USE powers. The problem is that developers CANNOT CHOOSE to just ignore their existence. 

As I said, devs will always design around the "Worst Case" scenario when trying to add challenge. They will ask themselves "What's the worst case situation wherein players might try and trivialize this new content?" Being Warframe devs, they will doubtless stumble onto some form of spamming CC. And they will design for it. Usually, by leaning on the same tired crutch once again. 

Because they HAVE to. 

As long as the grossly overpowered frames exist, this crutch will continue. Because the devs HAVE to design around the MOST powerful frames. Which means making the lesser frames suffer when not grouped up with the Big Boys and Girls of Crowd Control. Like it or not, if we ever want the power immune enemies to go away, and the fun to be restored, we have to eliminate powers capable of trivializing literally every enemy.

You should also consider that reaching the point where you can spam abilities at your heart's content is something you earn after hours and hours of game time farming for all the good mods and cores. New players that join the game do not have access to all this instantly so they need frames and weapons that can help them until they reach the level of ability spam 24/7 and even so the whole flavour of Warframe IS ability spam, it's what sets it apart from other Third-Person Shooters out there.

[DeccanTraps]

Right there with you, its like watching a bad DM try to fix a Monty haul D&D game.

And it really breaks my immersion. We are Tenno! We are meant to be titans, the slayers of empires! baptized in the cold and light-less flame of the void itself.
We are meant to be the unstoppable enemy, the unbeatable killers. Something the Orokin never fully understood nor controlled hammered into a weapon against the greatest foe the origin system has ever seen before the bloody hilt slipped their grips and we ended them in turn.

We were so potent that just the detritus of our deaths could be wrought into something like the Zanuka.

And I have to wonder why exactly? I mean its pretty clear that the Corpus can turn off those empire slaying void powers as easily as I turn off a light.

[BlackCoMerc]

9 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

The only problem in your thought chain is that people scream bloody murder at Bladestorm because it's good at killing things, if you make CC unneeded you will bring back braindead gameplay of spam 4 (or whatever AOE kill move you've got) which we worked so hard to tone down. If anything CC SHOULD be overpowered because the abilities that provide it DO NOT also double as efficient kill moves, while endless game modes may be dead (although not really because you know RELICS) that doesn't mean CC isn't needed in Sorties or Raids.

CC shouldn't be nerfed because CC is all about teamwork, somebody blinds the enemies while another kills them, that's how it should be.

The problem with CC as it exists in Warframe, is that duration, range and efficiency combine to map it a map wide, permanent lock down. Controlling the crowd tactically is fine. Permanently locking down entire maps and reducing game play to pressing one button or watching helpless enemies is NOT fine. Designing around this is what has lead the game to where it is: A lot of no powers allowed, unfun scenarios.

7 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

The problem with making an argument in this manner is you assume it's an epidemic that everyone hates. There are ways around all knockdowns (with the exception of scorpions maybe) and nullifiers. It comes down to the skill of the player, and you're right. They could nerf all frames to hell or they can make enemies to counter them, which they've been doing. No one is forcing you to play the game, but the gripes about nullifiers are far and few and stem from a sub-section of players who get frustrated by losing.

Also, as someone who owns every frame and frequently swaps between them, there is no lesser frame.

Nullifiers are not hard. This thread isnt about difficulty. I said that already.

And there ARE lesser frames where Crowd Control is concerned. Some frames have CC that is strictly superior to that of others. That was the context in which I used the term lesser. Apologies, I should have clarified that.

7 minutes ago, cghawk said:

the tread starter even said he doesn't have a problem with them, barely anyone does when facing nullifiers as, once again, stated in the OP, he merely states just like allot of us who want nullifiers removed, that it's simply not fun to face a nullifiers and that's the problem.

wait you have to think when facing nullifiers? last time I checked you simply press E or hold down the left mouse button if you're NOT using a high rate of fire weapon.

''not just press a button and make the problems go away'' which is exactly what high rate of fire weapons do so why can't low rate of fire weapons do it?

Thanks for understanding. There's no challenge in Nullifiers. Just sheer annoyance. 

But the problem goes beyond Nullifiers. What legit reason do Capture targets have to be power immune? How does this make these missions better or more varied or more fun? Never mind that it FAILS to make them more challenging. It ALSO makes them LESS fun and LESS varied and LESS interesting. Even if it DID make them more challenging (and again, it doesnt) would this even be worth it? 

Edited July 25, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Chroia]

1 minute ago, JSharpie said:

but the gripes about nullifiers are far and few and stem from a sub-section of players who get frustrated by losing.

As a person who gripes about Nullifiers:
I don't mind losing when I deserved it.
I mind losing to cheese.

It's the difference between ignoring all the lights, crosswalk signs etc. and then getting hit by a car, as opposed to obeying the lights, looking at the traffic, crossing at the crosswalk and then getting flattened by a crashing airplane.

The first is fair. A consequence of your actions'.
The latter is completely disconnected from anything you did, and entirely inescapable - regardless of what you may have done. Which makes it arbitrary bullcrap.

[DeMonkey]

I don't think it's so much power immunity, it's everything immunity that's the problem.

Imo the game should be a balance of it's core aspects. Gunplay, melee and abilities. Certain enemies should have immunities/resistances to keep you on your toes, but Nullifiers are immune to everything and make their friends immune to everything. They have a bullet spongy shield you can't shoot through, abilities are rendered useless and moving into melee range debuffs you. None of those options are great.

Comba and Scrambus are decent design imo (aside from the lack of warning), whilst abilities may not work a shot to the face works just fine. Shield Lancers make melee slightly harder, but abilities and headshots work fine. 

So whilst I would argue that there's nothing wrong with power immunity, there's certainly something wrong with an enemy that is immune/resistant to each core gameplay style.

Edited July 25, 2016 by DeMonkey

[Tizodd]

I totally would have agreed with you OP before SotR.  But now that endless missions are pretty much pointless for obtaining gear, Nullifiers aren't as fun-killing as they used to be imo.

Before the update we had to deal with level 100+ Corrupted Nullifiers who were protecting level 100+ Bombards, Heavy Gunners, and Ancient Healers.  Now THAT was an issue.  But now, we're really not dealing with high level Nullifiers any more...at least I'm not.

All-in-all, I feel the Nullifier issue is pretty much "null" :-D after SotR and the hotfixes that followed.  They're still lame enemies, but at reasonable levels they're not that bad.

[DeccanTraps]

2 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

I totally would have agreed with you OP before SotR.  But now that endless missions are pretty much pointless for obtaining gear, Nullifiers aren't as fun-killing as they used to be imo.

Before the update we had to deal with level 100+ Corrupted Nullifiers who were protecting level 100+ Bombards, Heavy Gunners, and Ancient Healers.  Now THAT was an issue.  But now, we're really not dealing with high level Nullifiers any more...at least I'm not.

All-in-all, I feel the Nullifier issue is pretty much "null" :-D after SotR and the hotfixes that followed.  They're still lame enemies, but at reasonable levels they're not that bad.

Then you are missing the point. a bad design call, both lore and gameplay-wise, is a bad call whether it is easily dealt with ( If its annoying and trivial its wasted development space) or insurmountable.

[Tizodd]

Just now, DeccanTraps said:

Then you are missing the point. a bad design call, both lore and gameplay-wise, is a bad call whether it is easily dealt with ( If its annoying and trivial its wasted development space) or insurmountable.

I'm not missing the point at all.  I did say they're lame enemies.  I just feel that in the game's current state, they're not as "fun-killing" as they were when everyone was running endless missions in the Void.

[Tymerc]

Woah, chill with the chain quoting. If I am in the wrong then I apologize. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Tymerc

[Prany]

You say that crutches need to be taken away. I say that Warframe has broken legs.

[Zachatoo]

My one and only gripe with nullifiers is the fact that if I want to use a bow or sniper to take down a nullifiers bubble, it takes an unreasonable amount of time. This takes away player choice concerning what is viable at high level play. One of the things I love about this game is that I have so many tools at my disposal to complete my objective, but nullifiers remove an entire class of weaponry from my list. DE, keep your nullifiers, but please, give us more options (player choice) to combatting them.

[felixsylvaris]

Something bad about nullifiers is not that they are immune for powers, but that they end any ongoing powers around. Which makes some powers useless.
It is not harder, just play will less complicated powers.

No Hydroid (tentacles will pop) only nekros.

No Magnetize, only pull.

It does not make gameplay better. Comboing polarize magnetize is cool. But pull spam is what we are left with.