Players Who Leave Conclave Matches Should Lose Standing, Seeing As Conclave Is A Test Of Skill & Honor & Leaving Matches Shows Dishonor + Cowardice

[Rawbeard]

Conclave is about Tenno tormenting each other, so I don't see what the problem is supposed to be.

[bWild]

1 minute ago, Master-Nachash said:

Losing a match is no reason to leave though unless you're a toxic player looking for an easy win. Even if you join near the end. Just wait it out and you'll have a fresh match soon enough when the one you're in ends. I agree in regards to matchmaking though, but I have to say it's rare I come across a totally unbeatable squad that's absolutely wrecking everyone. I've come across a few who are obviously pre-mades, but they're few and far between. Most are just random clusters of pugs much like the squads I'm in, with a couple of scrubs and a couple of decent players.

Oh believe me, I complain about the flaws in conclave too. See my previous threads. I know conclave needs a LOT of work. But that doesn't excuse or justify behaviour that ruins matches for other players.

Toxic player != leaving a losing match. A toxic player is someone who flames teammembers or insults other people. In this current topic the most offending player is you by taking players into the same category which is far off reality.

People want dedicated servers, rankings and a matchmaking queue. Then we can talk about leavers. But as long this is not happening we are playing this mode like beta testers. You are trying to fix things here without a working system in the back. Calling for honor in a flawed beta system will never work!

[Master-Nachash]

10 minutes ago, bWild said:

Toxic player != leaving a losing match. A toxic player is someone who flames teammembers or insults other people. In this current topic the most offending player is you by taking players into the same category which is far off reality.

People want dedicated servers, rankings and a matchmaking queue. Then we can talk about leavers. But as long this is not happening we are playing this mode like beta testers. You are trying to fix things here without a working system in the back. Calling for honor in a flawed beta system will never work!

Yes, leaving a match because you're losing is toxic behaviour because it negatively impacts the match for the rest of your team-mates. It's as simple as that.

I'm not offending anyone because nothing I'm saying is offensive, I'm talking about patterns of behaviour that I've recognised over a long period of time.

I'm not putting all players into the same category, I've highlighted a few times that it's the MAJORITY of leavers in conclave, not all of them.

And I'm not trying to fix anything. I'm merely highlighting issues and suggesting a change that may or may not help the situation. Whether or not that change is ever brought about, I don't mind. Because I have faith that DE will sort it out one way or another. But on the off chance that it does, I don't and won't expect it to be anytime soon, most certainly not before the PVP servers are brought into play, alongside conclave ranking and matchmaking. So no, I'm not calling for some kind of changes to be brought about right now, I'm just calling for changes to be brought about when they're viable. Not once did I say specifically when I wanted the changes I suggested to be brought about so please don't put words in my mouth.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Master-Nachash

[Snowmotion]

Perhaps instead of calling for the punishment of people who don't wish to remain and potentially be harried and humiliated by superior players - that can't be fun for anybody short of the most masochistic - you should look into a means of incentivising their remaining, a means of making the losing/uphill battle one that is actually engaging and exciting.

A game's supposed to be fun after all, not an exercise in frustration.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Yes, leaving a match because you're losing is toxic behaviour because it negatively impacts the match for the rest of your team-mates. It's as simple as that.

I do understand what you're saying, but when there's zero communication between the team, and when you always got OHKO by that one guy who camps and throws glaive p, in addition to teammates who do not watch your back and run around like an idiot (that's me), conclave instantly becomes a terrible experience. The key problem isn't about fighting a losing game, but rather the general experience of the game that frustrates some players.

4 minutes ago, Snowmotion said:

you should look into a means of incentivising their remaining, a means of making the losing/uphill battle one that is actually engaging and exciting.

I agree. Maybe we could have some sort of damage or EHP buff for players with less Oro to make it more fun and less dominant for a single player (that one alpha tenno). 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Guest

[Master-Nachash]

Just now, Snowmotion said:

Perhaps instead of calling for the punishment of people who don't wish to remain and potentially be harried and humiliated by superior players - that can't be fun for anybody short of the most masochistic - you should look into a means of incentivising their remaining, a means of making the losing/uphill battle one that is actually engaging and exciting.

A game's supposed to be fun after all, not an exercise in frustration.

For every measure there's a countermeasure, you just have to find it. 

The only way you're gonna become proficient in conclave is by playing against people who're better than you. By being "harried and humiliated."

That's my incentive and that's how I "got good."

Frustration only really comes at you when you jump into conclave with no experience, expecting it to be just like PVE, playing like it's PVE and expecting to dominate players who've been playing conclave a lot longer than you.

[Marshall]

3 hours ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Ah yes, PvP in Warface...

Wrong game, mate.

[bWild]

5 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Yes, leaving a match because you're losing is toxic behaviour because it negatively impacts the match for the rest of your team-mates. It's as simple as that.

I'm not offending anyone because nothing I'm saying is offensive, I'm talking about patterns of behaviour that I've recognised over a long period of time.

I'm not putting all players into the same category, I've highlighted a few times that it's the MAJORITY of leavers in conclave, not all of them.

And I'm not trying to fix anything. I'm merely highlighting issues and suggesting a change that may or may not help the situation. Whether or not that change is ever brought about, I don't mind. Because I have faith that DE will sort it out one way or another. But on the off chance that it does, I don't and won't expect it to be anytime soon, most certainly not before the PVP servers are brought into play, alongside conclave ranking and matchmaking. So no, I'm not calling for some kind of changes to be brought about right now, I'm just calling for changes to be brought about when they're viable. Not once did I say specifically when I wanted the changes I suggested to be brought about so please don't put words in my mouth.

Leaving a match makes other people join up in the current game mode. Where does it have negative impact in the game right now? 

Your title is offending in my opinion but I understand that you want to discuss this rather then argue. It is not my intention to put words in your mouth but I have a different sight on the current state of the game and value decisions of players totally different like you do. In my opinion conclave is currently a test environment rather then a finished game mode. This is why I can't take you serious on the leavers penalty. 

[OniDax]

Conclave isn't a test of skill or honor. It's a test of how good your internet connection is and how good you are at jumping around. Not getting standing/mods is enough punishment. All your suggestion will do is discourage even more players from playing Conclave. Is that what you want?

[Master-Nachash]

1 minute ago, Madho said:

I do understand what you're saying, but when there's zero communication between the team, and when you always got OHKO by that one guy who camps and throw glaive p, in addition to teammates who do not watch your back, conclave instantly becomes a terrible experience. The key problem isn't about fighting a losing game, but rather the general experience of the game that frustrates some players.

I agree. Maybe we could have some sort of damage or EHP buff for players with less Oro to make it more fun and less dominant for a single player. 

I have yet to come across anyone using any throwing melees yet you know haha! The most annoying players I've come across have been Hydroids and Atlas' because of their annoying knockdown spam. Oh and not forgetting Rhino with his knockdown spam + iron skin.

As for team-mates not watching your back. I've found it's best to never rely on that (I learned that in APB reloaded, even in pre-mades, squadmates were always unreliable). My advice to you is, use your team-mates as bait. Especially the ones who're getting rekt the most. 'Cause the opposing team will surely go for them the most for the easy kills, and while they do they're open for you to pounce on them.

[Master-Nachash]

Just now, bWild said:

Leaving a match makes other people join up in the current game mode. Where does it have negative impact in the game right now? 

Your title is offending in my opinion but I understand that you want to discuss this rather then argue. It is not my intention to put words in your mouth but I have a different sight on the current state of the game and value decisions of players totally different like you do. In my opinion conclave is currently a test environment rather then a finished game mode. This is why I can't take you serious on the leavers penalty. 

No, leaving a match opens up your team for the possibility of having a new player join. But as we know, conclave has a very small player base so you don't always make up for the numbers lost. Which leaves the matches imbalanced and gives the opposing team an unfair advantage.

Yeah I understand that, like I said earlier I'm not calling for this to happen right now. It's just an idea that I feel should / could be implemented at some point, unless of course DE come up with a better idea.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

My advice to you is, use your team-mates as bait. Especially the ones who're getting rekt the most. 'Cause the opposing team will surely go for them the most for the easy kills, and while they do they're open for you to pounce on them.

This is exactly why conclave has become a terrible experience. New players exist purely as a bait for the team. Instead of helping them get kills by ganking opponents like any good PvP player would do, you let them take direct fire from the opposing team. There just isn't enough room for new players to gain any sort of advantage because they exist only as a tool for "pros" to exploit, not accepted as an individual. Under this circumstance, new players can never "git gud", thus they experience frustration and leave, then "pros" like you complain about it because you lost a meat shield.

[Master-Nachash]

Just now, Madho said:

This is exactly why conclave has become a terrible experience. New players exist purely as a bait for the team. Instead of helping them get kills by ganking opponents like any good PvP player would do, you let them take direct fire from the opposing team. There just isn't enough room for new players to gain any sort of advantage because they exist only as a tool for "pros" to exploit, not accepted as an individual. Under this circumstance, new players can never "git gud", thus they experience frustration and leave, then "pros" like you complain about it because you lost a meat shield.

Ok, you've just completely misrepresented what I've said.

Using your team-mates as bait doesn't necessarily mean just having them exist purely as bait, just to be there to be shot at. They play an active role too, as much as they can, they're not just stood there doing nothing. Some of them do pretty well. Also, I'm not just talking about using new-players as bait. I'm talking about anyone that isn't doing well.

It's a simple fact that in every single match there will be people who aren't doing so well in comparison to the others, people at the bottom of the scoreboard, and those people will be the ones who are targeted the most usually. So it makes sense tactically to hover around them waiting for the enemy to pounce because they'll be targeting them more than the ones who are more of a challenge.

No matter what PVP game you play, if it's team-based, every match will be played out like that to some degree. The guy who's doing the worst will be targeted the most because his opponents consider him squishy.

It seems like you really want to paint a negative picture of me for some reason.

[Letter13]

Why this wasn't posted in PvP feedback, I do not know.

Moving.

[Askell91]

If the host is have a potato net I will leave. Deal with it.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Master-Nachash said:

?

it's entirely possible that the players don't want to play with you....

[Snowmotion]

17 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

For every measure there's a countermeasure, you just have to find it. 

The only way you're gonna become proficient in conclave is by playing against people who're better than you. By being "harried and humiliated."

That's my incentive and that's how I "got good."

Frustration only really comes at you when you jump into conclave with no experience, expecting it to be just like PVE, playing like it's PVE and expecting to dominate players who've been playing conclave a lot longer than you.

Perhaps at times this may hold true, but as you also said, there's a limited pool of people interested in playing the game mode - punishing those that are having little fun would simply reduce your potential pool of players to compete against further.

Spoilering my response, as it's tenuously related from my experiences. Potentially worth the read and consideration for you, potentially not.

Spoiler

 

While I have little interest in conclave in warframe, I have a fair amount of experience of player versus player content from another game some time back that has some parallels with this game - it was one that started without player versus player combat, one that shoehorned it in to appease a crowd that desired it. Of course, said game was horribly balanced as what worked for player vesus enviroment didn't work for player versus player - Warframe shares that issue, and so, they made changes to prevent a player oneshotting another player, they seperated the two and things went on.

Somewhere down the line, they decided that PvP was to be forced upon players as a means of PvE progression - the alternative was to do PvE content for the gear they required, that took approximately fifty times as long as the PvP track.

Having had prior PvP experience in this game with factional combat, I decided I'd give this a go at least as I did require an exorbitant amount of resources to complete my setup - I was then told my character class at the level I was doing this at only existed to be farmed by other players. Not being one to accept this, I poured a large amount of my ingame resources and funds into a setup. This setup worked on the basis of deception - my visual appearance suggested I was going to approach combat one way, while my actual approach was that I'd focused on my defences and my casting capability.

The heightened casting capability I'd worked for allowed me to shut down lesser outfitted and geared players, they'd find their defences compromised, that the weapons they saw equipped were not used beyond utilising them to permit me to lock on and track them and that they'd fast find themselves unable to move as I'd repeatedly strike them by casting one of my top end attacks.

Similarly geared players of varying professions could take me on roughly equal footing, better geared players (that there were few of) actively made a point of singling me out when they could because the fact I didn't fall over dead immediately annoyed them.

One specific profession could instantly shut me down, as they were given a literal 'I win' button against me that left me unable to do anything thanks to the idea of adding a rock-paper-scissors system to allow certain people who got lucky with their form of 'I win' button to simply render another helpless with little more than a single click. Not everyone's worked that well, though for some that was particularly effective - some were given it for a class they could typically steamroll anyway.

I went into this, I became hated for the fact that a 'free kill' was fighting back and killing others, I was singled out and harassed even over priority targets because how dare I and then some time after completing my setup, I quit and moved the character on to what i'd originally built them for as I was seeing the same few faces every time with the means to shut me down and i'd already exausted every option for for a counter - one simply didn't exist for certain combinations, that were so deeply ingrained into the game that they wouldn't see change to alleviate them.

My option, when I was presented with these same few faces was to take being effectively spawn camped with a smile in a losing battle, or to be locked out of the game mode in question and made to do a menial task as punishment for not enjoying myself to get back in.

I instead opted to play other characters, at other levels, get in, get what they needed and get out - this became the norm for others that could stomach this, they'd get in, take being farmed and get out, as they at least were rewarded decently for losing as the other side knew if they steamrolled them and denied them any reward what so ever, they'd spend hours waiting for the next round of this game to take place.

This is why I respectfully have to disagree with your call to punish people - I've seen it before and the end result isn't what you would hope for.

 

 

[Master-Nachash]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

it's entirely possible that the players don't want to play with you....

I doubt that's the case considering they're consistently leaving after getting their asses handed to them by the opposing team.

Nice try though.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Using your team-mates as bait doesn't necessarily mean just having them exist purely as bait, just to be there to be shot at. They play an active role too, as much as they can, they're not just stood there doing nothing. Some of them do pretty well. Also, I'm not just talking about using new-players as bait. I'm talking about anyone that isn't doing well.

It's a simple fact that in every single match there will be people who aren't doing so well in comparison to the others, people at the bottom of the scoreboard, and those people will be the ones who are targeted the most usually. So it makes sense tactically to hover around them waiting for the enemy to pounce because they'll be targeting them more than the ones who are more of a challenge.

In a team-based game, teammates would consider splitting the damage in between members so that nobody has to die. Since team scores are based on kills, preventing death is the best strategy instead of a 1:1/1:many tradeoff like you are suggesting.

People at the top of the scoreboard are more likely to be targeted because they have a bounty for shutting down their killing spree. Warframe though, does not have this system.

[The__Q]

4 hours ago, Praxxor said:

Yeah let me get punished when I disconnect because I get over 500ms ping when i clearly selected 200 max ping in the settings

you do realize that the game counts disconnecting and host migration/timeout as different things right?

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

I don't really play pvp that much and even when I do I don't quit because even if I am losing games can go really fast. The reason I would quit a game is if I was having an off day and failing or the other guy was PVP god. Because standing is based off of score and doing poorly wont get much anyway it just feels like a waste of time to stay.

Maybe this is also why some people are quitting. So instead of a punishment for people who rage quit maybe make it so its fixed standing gain regardless of win or loss. This way people stay even if they are losing and they are just playing for the fun of it or for standing.

[LordMazulia]

3 minutes ago, TriggerHappyWhiteGuy said:

I don't really play pvp that much and even when I do I don't quit because even if I am losing games can go really fast. The reason I would quit a game is if I was having an off day and failing or the other guy was PVP god. Because standing is based off of score and doing poorly wont get much anyway it just feels like a waste of time to stay.

Maybe this is also why some people are quitting. So instead of a punishment for people who rage quit maybe make it so its fixed standing gain regardless of win or loss. This way people stay even if they are losing and they are just playing for the fun of it or for standing.

That's not a bad idea. Instead of punishing people who leave, which might encourage them to not come back, give them a reason to stay. This way, even if they might not be enjoying the match, they are less likely to quit. There are already too many people who don't enjoy the conclave as it is, so a system like this could at least bring more people in.

[Praxxor]

9 minutes ago, The__Q said:

you do realize that the game counts disconnecting and host migration/timeout as different things right?

you do realize that that is not what i meant by disconnect?

 

[FrozenVoid]

Off-Topic (or is it?)

Tenno leaving Conclave should be rewarded for it for its leader is a Traitor to the Tenno.

Leaver obviously have seen through Teshins charade and came to their senses.

[Zeiss17]

Pffft. That is the most stupid reason you would want to damage other players. Honor? Whut? Are you crazy or something? PLAYING a videaogame is not a higher cause than reading a book. You are not winning wars and you are not a coward if you decide to drop out. Next time try making a valid point instead of this nonsense. Besides, they already lose their mission rewards.

Not counting that conclave is terrible on his own.

And as always, if you don't like teammates dropping out you can always go solo and you don't have this problem at all.

There is no skill to speak of. In pvp, meta rules them all. I just have to get my Pvp meta primary, secondary, melee, frame and mods and I can absolutely steamroll anyone who isn't playing the meta. Which is another reason conclave is terrible.