Nullifiers: Inconsistent Behavior and Unmaking Reality

[BlackCoMerc]

It occurred to me this morning: Nullifier behavior is not consistent. Not visual. Not mechanically. Moreover, the Bubble has evolved into a godlike thing that can unmake physical reality and even reach across dimensions. Gameplay has so vastly trumped Lore here, that this unit behaves in ways which, mechanically, make no sense and will likely cause new players some grief.

Consider Eximus units. I saw an Arctic Eximus Nullifier. His Dome was active under his own Bubble. How can his Void power work under the bubble, but ours does not? And Flame waves? Should Eximus flame waves not stop when they hit a bubble? Why do enemy void powers (that enemies should never have been given; so much for our uniqueness) work under and through Nullifier Domes, but ours do not?

Consider a new player, in their first couple of encounters with Nullifiers. They see flame waves and ice Domes working under and through bubbles. Since DE makes no effort to make the Codex useful for new players, they assume (correctly, based on visual cues) that such powers work despite the presence of Nullifiers. Because of this, the new player buys Frost (good choice) and...finds out their mistake the hard way.

Except...it wasn't their mistake. It was the combination of several mistakes on the part of the devs.

First, Nullifiers aren't consistent in their behavior. They are supposed to nullify void powers. But they don't do so consistently. They only nullify our powers. Furthermore, they no longer stop at nullifying powers. Now, they unmake reality by vanishing real, physical structures and bodies, just because those things were summoned BY powers. Which makes zero sense.

Lastly...the Codex is useless to the players who need it most. Who, face it, could (but should not have to) rely on the Wiki instead. Not really the focus here, but it's worth mentioning.

DE does, in my opinion, need to look at Nullifiers. They have gone from lore break annoyance to mechanically deceptive inconsistency. 

 

[rngd444]

The irony is how they tried to make them more consistent with the recent changes which just caused more frustration due to the overall double standards for our and the enemy side. There's no way to justify the mechanics and while I read somewhere that it was already confirmed they'll definitely get changed again, I wonder how long it might take (since making something more suitable for the player side doesn't seem to have the same enthusiastic approach to it like changes for the enemy side).

[DeccanTraps]

Nullifyers, DE admitting they don't dare Nerf anything that costs plat, but cant actually challenge the OP frames/mods they created to get people spending and playing.

The constant churn of new frames and new abilities is nothing but the jangling of keys by a doctor afraid to tell his patent the gangrene has hit bone marrow.

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

Nullifyers, DE admitting they don't dare Nerf anything that costs plat, but cant actually challenge the OP frames/mods they created to get people spending and playing.

The constant churn of new frames and new abilities is nothing but the jangling of keys by a doctor afraid to tell his patent the gangrene has hit bone marrow.

This...sums it up pretty well, actually. Very well. I am deathly afraid you're more right than most people know or understand.

[NightElve]

8 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Now, they unmake reality by vanishing real, physical structures and bodies

Exactly stationary objects like Frost bubble relies mostly on condensation of the atmosphere, how a nullifier destroys that, i don't know..

Well DE have obviously seen this posts countless times and they have chosen to ignore it, i have moved on.

 There's nothing challenging about nullifiers. They get obliterated by veterans along with everything else, but they're obnoxious in an arbitrary way that severely reduces the game's fun factor. Everyone is citing the same reasons, why DE ignores this i don't quite understand, while a few of the community rather claim not to have any issue with them and say they are a good game design and that there's nothing wrong with them is flat-out, objectively incorrect for reasons that have been enumerated countless times in hundreds of thread.

This enemies have been branded Annoying/cheesy/part of poor game design/balancing, experienced players take them out quickly and they are hardly pose any challenge rather they are annoying, we rage quit a game and several players have rage quit because of nullifiers and some people still think they are good game design

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, NightElve said:

Exactly stationary objects like Frost bubble relies mostly on condensation of the atmosphere, how a nullifier destroys that, i don't know..

Well DE have obviously seen this posts countless times and they have chosen to ignore it, i have moved on.

 There's nothing challenging about nullifiers. They get obliterated by veterans along with everything else, but they're obnoxious in an arbitrary way that severely reduces the game's fun factor. Everyone is citing the same reasons, why DE ignores this i don't quite understand, while a few of the community rather claim not to have any issue with them and say they are a good game design and that there's nothing wrong with them is flat-out, objectively incorrect for reasons that have been enumerated countless times in hundreds of thread.

This enemies have been branded Annoying/cheesy/part of poor game design/balancing, experienced players take them out quickly and they are hardly pose any challenge rather they are annoying, we rage quit a game and several players have rage quit because of nullifiers and some people still think they are good game design

Agree completely. I love the "they aren't hard" argument.

We already KNOW they aren't hard. Nothing hard about holding down the fire button until the bubble goes away.

What they are...is irritating, inconsistent, limiting and in general bad for the game. And the crutch the use is now propping up half their (awful, boring, frustrating, annoying) faction, capture missions, Simaris Scans and the (equally horrendous and gimmicky) boss fights...

[Genitive]

Nullifiers have no longer place in the game. With the recent changes to warframe abilities and planned changes to enemy scaling I hope nullifiers will go. Or at the very least the bubble mechanics should be changed to work more like the arctic eximus one. And it should be smaller and more transparent. Nullifying powers is one thing, but completely obstructing view is even more annoying, especially when you have more than one nullifier in close proximity.

[MakeLuvNotWerFrame]

Personally for me. Nullifiers have been this "we do what we damn well please" sort of enemy construct

They enact a field that affects but at the same time is UN-affected by that which they affect, akin to throwing a punch through a brick wall and their hand feeling nothing at all

but should my weapons projectiles happen to graze it WATCH OUT!, that's when the magic happens

I for one would love to see that, for everything that's nullified, should in some form affect the bubbles size

 

I mean, it's hard as hell to wrap my mind around just how it's supposed to make any sense  that bullets, though blocked. have an affect on their globes but any ability they nullify

is like a fart into a hurricane, no change what-so-ever

realism has been argued to justify LoS changed of excal, mag's pull, and some others. but is this only a one-way hypocritical justification or are we at some level trying to make things a tad more believable?

 

overall I adapt to whatever happens in this game. though it irks me that some things don't seem to be well discussed from fair logical perspectives

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, MakeLuvNotWerFrame said:

Personally for me. Nullifiers have been this "we do what we damn well please" sort of enemy construct

They enact a field that affects but at the same time is UN-affected by that which they affect, akin to throwing a punch through a brick wall and their hand feeling nothing at all

but should my weapons projectiles happen to graze it WATCH OUT!, that's when the magic happens

I for one would love to see that, for everything that's nullified, should in some form affect the bubbles size

 

I mean, it's hard as hell to wrap my mind around just how it's supposed to make any sense  that bullets, though blocked. have an affect on their globes but any ability they nullify

is like a fart into a hurricane, no change what-so-ever

realism has been argued to justify LoS changed of excal, mag's pull, and some others. but is this only a one-way hypocritical justification or are we at some level trying to make things a tad more believable?

 

overall I adapt to whatever happens in this game. though it irks me that some things don't seem to be well discussed from fair logical perspectives

I adapt as well. But I find myself wondering more and more what my threshold for annoyance really is. More and more I find other games calling me back.

Honestly, now we finished the Borderlands series, if my girl and I could find another fun coop action game we wouldn't even play Warframe any longer. Alas, coop isn't much of a focus in game development these days.

But one day Borderworlds will arrive. Gearbox is allegedly going big for their next Borderlands game, so, we are eagerly awaiting news of that.

[DeccanTraps]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Agree completely. I love the "they aren't hard" argument.

We already KNOW they aren't hard. Nothing hard about holding down the fire button until the bubble goes away.

What they are...is irritating, inconsistent, limiting and in general bad for the game. And the crutch the use is now propping up half their (awful, boring, frustrating, annoying) faction, capture missions, Simaris Scans and the (equally horrendous and gimmicky) boss fights...

agreed here I mean I am easily the worst player in my clan, the casualest of casuals my dullard 36 year old reactions slow and my general demeanor is of a high funtioning sloth blinking in slow motion bewilderment as I struggle with a paltry 5 hot keys...

I have never actually died to nullifyers. I used to 2 man sorties with a freind, till the work/payoff crossed a threshold.

I've run and aced a sortie mission on an umodded frame by acident.

Its not that Nullifyers are hard, its that they are inconsistent, arbitrary, lore breaking and used as a cheap alternative to engaging challenge, an alternative that also happens to remove much of what makes warframe unique and interesting.

The whole 'they don't bother me, so they should stay' drawbridge raising elitism is nothing but selfishness.
The very turn of phrase indicates that these people would be asking for a change if it did bother them. The ones demanding more challenge MORE challenge, they never want things made so dofficult that they personally cannot get what they want. Just that other [lesser] people cannot get what the elitists have.

Edited August 7, 2016 by DeccanTraps

[BlackCoMerc]

11 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

agreed here I mean I am easily the worst player in my clan, the casualest of casuals my dullard 36 year old reactions slow and my general demeanor is of a high funtioning sloth blinking in slow motion bewilderment as I struggle with a paltry 5 hot keys...

I have never actually died to nullifyers. I used to 2 man sorties with a freind, till the work/payoff crossed a threshold.

I've run and aced a sortie mission on an umodded frame by acident.

Its not that Nullifyers are hard, its that they are inconsistent, arbitrary, lore breaking and used as a cheap alternative to engaging challenge, an alternative that also happens to remove much of what makes warframe unique and interesting.

The whole 'they don't bother me, so they should stay' drawbridge raising elitism is nothing but selfishness.
The very turn of phrase indicates that these people would be asking for a change if it did bother them. The ones demanding more challenge MORE challenge, they never want things made so dofficult that they personally cannot get what they want. Just that other [lesser] people cannot get what the elitists have.

This pretty much mirrors my feelings on it...

[Voltage]

On 07/08/2016 at 10:03 AM, Dante123pl said:

[removed by mod]

actually BlackCoNerc makes very valuable arguments. Sadly he needs to constantly makes threads because on the Warframe forums, your threads get pushed away. I spent 3 hours making a good feedback post and it was just thrown away. He makes very good arguments and nullifiers are an issue.

Edited August 11, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed rude quoted comment

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, -Voltage- said:

actually BlackCoNerc makes very valuable arguments. Sadly he needs to constantly makes threads because on the Warframe forums, your threads get pushed away. I spent 3 hours making a good feedback post and it was just thrown away. He makes very good arguments and nullifiers are an issue.

Thanks for the support. I appreciate it.

At this point I'm reaching the point where I've said my piece. If something doesn't change with the next update, I might post to remind DE the issue remains. But other than that...they know what needs to happen to improve Warframe.

At this point I just feel like adding more items to grind for is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

[DeccanTraps]

8 hours ago, NightElve said:

Exactly stationary objects like Frost bubble relies mostly on condensation of the atmosphere, how a nullifier destroys that, i don't know..

Well DE have obviously seen this posts countless times and they have chosen to ignore it, i have moved on.

 There's nothing challenging about nullifiers. They get obliterated by veterans along with everything else, but they're obnoxious in an arbitrary way that severely reduces the game's fun factor. Everyone is citing the same reasons, why DE ignores this i don't quite understand, while a few of the community rather claim not to have any issue with them and say they are a good game design and that there's nothing wrong with them is flat-out, objectively incorrect for reasons that have been enumerated countless times in hundreds of thread.

This enemies have been branded Annoying/cheesy/part of poor game design/balancing, experienced players take them out quickly and they are hardly pose any challenge rather they are annoying, we rage quit a game and several players have rage quit because of nullifiers and some people still think they are good game design

The problem is, most people cannot tell the difference between 'I am having fun' and 'The game I am playing is well designed'

Take chess, chess is absolutely one of the crowning pinnacles of game design. Bores me to absolute tears.

Warframe? I love it! great game, can be amazingly forget your problems and skip dinner fun, but in many places its shockingly badly designee.

[SonicSonedit]

7 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I adapt as well. But I find myself wondering more and more what my threshold for annoyance really is. More and more I find other games calling me back.

Honestly, now we finished the Borderlands series, if my girl and I could find another fun coop action game we wouldn't even play Warframe any longer. Alas, coop isn't much of a focus in game development these days.

But one day Borderworlds will arrive. Gearbox is allegedly going big for their next Borderlands game, so, we are eagerly awaiting news of that.

Did you guys try Divinity: Original Sin? This game is great adventure couple experience.

If you prefer action-based ones with just fun and easy game, you should totally check out Saints Row 4 and L4D2 - girls tend to enjoy these two games a lot. Don't worry, they are not girly games... but still most of the girls who try them tend to like them, no idea why.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

Did you guys try Divinity: Original Sin? This game is great adventure couple experience.

If you prefer action-based ones with just fun and easy game, you should totally check out Saints Row 4 and L4D2 - girls tend to enjoy these two games a lot. Don't worry, they are not girly games... but still most of the girls who try them tend to like them, no idea why.

Ha! Funny you mention it...we both have a copy of SR4, and are seriously thinking its time we returned to that franchise for a while. Warframe is wearing thin for us just now...we are growing tired of fighting the same old enemies, on the same old maps, just to get more gold colored copies of stuff we already have...which, sadly, is the late game.

Unless you actually LIKE sorties and raids, and we...really, really dont.

Thanks for reminding me of this. Got a break from work coming up soon and I think we might also make it a break from Warframe.

Edited August 7, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[SonicSonedit]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Ha! Funny you mention it...we both have a copy of SR4, and are seriously thinking its time we returned to that franchise for a while. Warframe is wearing thin for us just now...we are growing tired of fighting the same old enemies, on the same old maps, just to get more gold colored copies of stuff we already have...which, sadly, is the late game.

Unless you actually LIKE sorties and raids, and we...really, really dont.

Thanks for reminding me of this. Got a break from work coming up soon and I think we might also make it a break from Warframe.

Yeah, same story for us here. Lately WF starts to feel like hard work instead of fun game, more and more annoying arifical difficulty and grind and less fun. New Star Chart is great, but new fissure system was a big dissapointment, and so we are taking a break from WF currently.

Give L4D2 a chance, too :)

We can also introduce you to L4D2, if you want. Altrhough we are mostly playing "Versus" mode (PVP), but we can gladly play some Campagin mode (CO-OP) and also show you some superb community campaigns.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/howdoimineforfish/

[SonicSonedit]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Ha! Funny you mention it...we both have a copy of SR4, and are seriously thinking its time we returned to that franchise for a while. Warframe is wearing thin for us just now...we are growing tired of fighting the same old enemies, on the same old maps, just to get more gold colored copies of stuff we already have...which, sadly, is the late game.

Unless you actually LIKE sorties and raids, and we...really, really dont.

Thanks for reminding me of this. Got a break from work coming up soon and I think we might also make it a break from Warframe.

Yeah, same story for us here. Lately WF starts to feel like hard work instead of fun game, more and more annoying arifical difficulty and grind and less fun. New Star Chart is great, but new fissure system was a big dissapointment, and so we are taking a break from WF currently.

Give L4D2 a chance, too :)

We can also introduce you to L4D2, if you want. Altrhough we are mostly playing "Versus" mode (PVP), but we can gladly play some Campagin mode (CO-OP) and also show you some superb community campaigns.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/howdoimineforfish/

[Zoracraft]

8 hours ago, Dante123pl said:

at this point i think ur threads should be considered spam you create same threads with crying about nullifiers few times a week.

Nullifiers wont get changed, game needs them.

Other factions also need them cause corpus is the only faction that can fight back.

deal with it.

Wow... Your post is pretty much the textbook example of terrible forum behavior:

1: Calling ANYONE's opinions spam. Just because you don't like Merc's ideas and opinions, that doesn't make it spam. Spam would be posting the same thing over and over again. While Merc is posting similar threads often, they are all unique, with different combinations of reasonings and ideas. Plus, as has been stated before, the warframe forums pretty much demand quantity to get anything any sort of attention, so he's only doing what will give him a chance to get a response from DE.

2: Language. Yours is, quite frankly, depressing to read. It sounds more like a YouTube comment than a post in a discussion forum.

3: "Nullifiers won't get changed, game needs them"

A: You've already been proven wrong by the recent nullie buffs, which did change nullies, obviously. There is literally no reason they couldn't be changed, or even removed (heresy, I know), and arguing that they are untouchable is, quite frankly, asinine. 

B: "Game needs them", who says? You? You don't have to look far into the forums to see that people pretty much boycott corpus missions because of nullies. I don't know about you, but I don't think the game "needs" an enemy that causes so much division that people actually boycott any content that contains that enemy. 

C: "Other factions also need them cause corpus is the only faction that can fight back."

What about bombards? Manics? Ancient healers? Disruptors? Juggernauts?

Also, grineer have the Nullifier drones, which are a textbook example of an annoying enemy disguised as a difficult enemy. 

Do you know what would happen if the other factions got nullies? First, many people would leave. Then, others would boycott the nullies, only playing missions without them. You would, of course, have some people indifferent, and others complaining that the new nullies are still too easy, of course. As you can see, this would seriously fracture the playerbase, which, for obvious reasons, the developers don't want.

So no, the other factions don't need a Nullifier, and DE needs to give serious consideration to outright removing the corpus ones to repair the fracture that has been developing in the playerbase.

"Deal with it", typical

[Chipputer]

So we're going to now go after nullifiers by arguing that our space magic is affected in a strange and unrealistic way by their space technology? Amazing.

15 hours ago, NightElve said:

Exactly stationary objects like Frost bubble relies mostly on condensation of the atmosphere, how a nullifier destroys that, i don't know..

Not only that, but we're defining how the space magic works, exactly, and thus we are deciding that fictional space technology can't work in a certain way because we have decided how our space magic works.

 

Nullifiers are archaic, yes, but calling them inconsistent? They affect your powers 100% consistently. They don't affect the enemy powers. They are a hard counter to your power spam. Nothing about that is inconsistent. A player buying Frost because a frost eximus unit isn't affected by their allied nullifier is probably one of the dumbest leaps in logic I've ever laid eyes on.

[Mr._Clean]

Agreed, Nullifiers need a big change or (better yet) need to go. Good thread.

[Marthrym]

Nullifiers were a lazy, half-assed attempt at countering the rampant CC plague that ironically nullified the AI completely. They are the embodiment of the devs admitting that they are either too lazy, incompetent, stretched thin, or too busy implementing new shiny stuff as fast as possible without any consideration for long term balance (or even short term for that matter). Their "remedy" to the CC issue is so much worse than the original problem, they're now forced to actually do something before it eats away at the game completely. To this day I still don't understand the thought process that made them think "Hey! instead of FIXING OUR DAMN GAME, let's BREAK IT EVEN MORE! Let's add a mechanic that simply REMOVES that flawed gameplay instead of taking the time to FIX IT! Yay, such good idea, much genius!".

They don't provide any counterplay other than turning our brains off and shooting at or going full suicidal inside the bubbles. And it even had a negative impact on every weapon that doesn't have a sufficient firerate to boot! I mean what more do you need to realize that there's a problem here?

The facepalm in this one is so damn hard, I just can't even.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Marthrym

[Cortanis]

Ouch.... yeah, bubble boys should be an all or nothing effect. DE actually changing it to something proper on the other hand? I'm not holding my breath on something actually being done.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Nullifiers were a lazy, half-assed attempt at countering the rampant CC plague that ironically nullified the AI completely. They are the eombodiment of the devs admitting that they are either too lazy, incompetent, stretched thin, or too busy implementing new shiny stuff as fast as possible without any consideration for long term balance (or even short term for that matter). Their "remedy" to the CC issue is so much worse than the original problem, they're now forced to actually do something before it eats away at the game completely. To this day I still don't understand the thought process that made them think "Hey! instead of FIXING OUR DAMN GAME, let's BREAK IT EVEN MORE! Let's add a mechanic that simply REMOVES that flawed gameplay instead of taking the time to FIX IT! Yay, such good idea, much genius!".

They don't provide any counterplay other than turning our brains off and shooting at or going full suicidal inside the bubbles. And it even had a negative impact on every weapon that doesn't have a sufficient firerate to boot! I mean what more do you need to realize that there's a problem here?

The facepalm in this one is so damn hard, I just can't even.

This pretty well sums it up. 

Someone said yesterday in another thread, that all this adding new frames and stuff to grind for is basically the doctor rattling his keys while he tries to figure out how to tell you that the gangrene has hit the bone marrow...and I am beginning to feel the same way.

The OP players, plus the OP, power nullifying enemies, are rotting this game...

[SolarDwagon]

I was talking this over with clanmates recently and our views came down to several distinct themes, with one underlying agreement. Nullifiers are too much the way they are.

Theme 1: Remove them and spawn *occasional* comba's/scrambas instead.

Theme 2: Make the bubble ONLY affect powers. Bullets can pass through for free.

Theme 3: Make the bubble have HP and drop instantly, rather than the time delay psuedo-damage-scaled mess we have currently.