Nullifiers: Inconsistent Behavior and Unmaking Reality

[NightElve]

1 minute ago, Prany said:

Lol! Typical response from someone without real counter argument. Period!

Troll :D

Edited August 11, 2016 by NightElve

[rngd444]

1 hour ago, Prany said:

Yes. And as long as people cling to their power tools, nullifiers are here to stay. Not that I would want their departure even if our power level was lovered to reasonable level. Yes, nullifiers are not without some minor shortcomings, but besides that their gameplay design is quite ingenious with obvious counters and they are absolutely fair in both offence and defence. Much better than most other enemies (at least in case of corpus and grineer) in this game who are walking sticks with guns on them. Or worse, blatantly unfair enemies like comba/scrambus with their invisible and borderline unavoidable dispell auras or juggernouts with their plethora of deadly attacks combined with incredibally stiff telegraph animations.

That's just ridiculously stupid. Instead of them fixing their game, we are supposed to stop using the stuff they implemented in order for them to remove Nullifiers? (Not that they'd ever do it afterwards.) Nothing about them is ingenious, that's just your opinion, just as well as them only having 'minor shortcomings'. In my opinion, they could theoretically be a good unit if they were implemented in a better way.

 

1 hour ago, Prany said:

I supported my argument with something resembling proof. You responded with speculation. You could as well have gone and responded "Nuh-uh". And I could go ahead and respond "Ya-huh". It would go then forever and everyone would agree it's very stupid. As an example let's pretend I don't have argument backed by sorta-proof and say: eximus snowglobe is made up of hexagons while Frost's isn't. From this we can conclude that Frost's globe is made by natural forces while exinus is artificial.

And where exactly is your so-called proof? A wiki entry without any citation? Well played, you just twist it the way it suits you.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Prany said:

Yes. And as long as people cling to their power tools, nullifiers are here to stay. Not that I would want their departure even if our power level was lovered to reasonable level. Yes, nullifiers are not without some minor shortcomings, but besides that their gameplay design is quite ingenious with obvious counters and they are absolutely fair in both offence and defence. Much better than most other enemies (at least in case of corpus and grineer) in this game who are walking sticks with guns on them. Or worse, blatantly unfair enemies like comba/scrambus with their invisible and borderline unavoidable dispell auras or juggernouts with their plethora of deadly attacks combined with incredibally stiff telegraph animations.

What answers? This thread shows no compelling arguments for why nullifiers are inconsistant or why it would be important even if they were inconsistant. I keep repeating this question because I have not recieved good answer. For example...

 

I supported my argument with something resembling proof. You responded with speculation. You could as well have gone and responded "Nuh-uh". And I could go ahead and respond "Ya-huh". It would go then forever and everyone would agree it's very stupid. As an example let's pretend I don't have argument backed by sorta-proof and say: eximus snowglobe is made up of hexagons while Frost's isn't. From this we can conclude that Frost's globe is made by natural forces while exinus is artificial.

So...people shouldn't cling to Powers as viable tools...

Then...why bother having them, if their working reliably when needed (what you call"clinging") isn't something we should count on?

Can you not see the utter ridiculousness of your entire premise?

[Prany]

3 hours ago, rngd444 said:

That's just ridiculously stupid. Instead of them fixing their game, we are supposed to stop using the stuff they implemented in order for them to remove Nullifiers? (Not that they'd ever do it afterwards.) Nothing about them is ingenious, that's just your opinion, just as well as them only having 'minor shortcomings'. In my opinion, they could theoretically be a good unit if they were implemented in a better way.

No, it's not opinion. Like good enemies they make players to move out of comfort zone. Players who refuse to addapt will suffer. Players who do addapt will succeed ten times out of ten. And with choice of warframe, two ranged weapons, one melee weapon, companion and specters there are multiple ways how to addapt. There are multiple ways how to aproach nullifiers. And if you execute your aproach right, you will succeed. They are also highly visible and their bubbles give out signature humm meaning they can't do surprise drop on you. And they synergize with allied mobs and thus make nullifiers' influence on battlefield noticable. As it is befitting for advanced enemy type. And like I said, these attributes are not opinion - term that people usually in wrong are wery fond of - synergy, significance, visibility and counter-ability are cornerstones of good enemy design. Especially for advanced enemies like nullifiers.

As for their flaws, I can give that once in blue moon they can oneshot players with their lankas. Laser sight similar to ballista's would be nice. Boosting weapon swap and/or giving snipers, bows and shotguns their own interections with bubbles so they can be just as effective as automatic weapons in one way or another. Their spawn rate could be toned down a little bit and given hard cap of three or four nullies at a time. They should prevent summons from entering bubble in the first place and static abilities like globe or bastille shouldn't be dispelled - merely not have any effect under bubble. There, few minor tweaks and nullifiers are little fairer and (since it's so important) consistant.

3 hours ago, rngd444 said:

And where exactly is your so-called proof? A wiki entry without any citation? Well played, you just twist it the way it suits you.

Did you called me out for twisting proof to benefit my position when I myself already called out lack of citation? I brought it up because it was all I found regarding eximi lore. And it was never the less more than you brought up - mere speculations which I by the way countered with my own speculations (aformentioned "nuh-uh, ya-huh" situation). But fine, let's disregard speculations and shady "proof". Let's try good old logic. (And I should kick myself for not thinking of this earlier)

Nullifiers disrupt void powers.

Nullifiers can use eximus powers.

Logical conclusion is that eximus powers are NOT void powers.

You and this thread in large have commited cardinal sin of logical thinking - you choose position (that nullifiers are inconsistant) and find proof that would support this position (eximus powers are void powers). But that is not how it works. Right way is other way around - to look at given values (nullifiers disrupt void powers and can use eximus powers) and make conclusions based on givens (since nullifiers can use eximus powers, it's unlikely eximus powers are void powers).

So remind me, what did you accuse me of back there?

Edited August 11, 2016 by Prany

[BlackCoMerc]

18 minutes ago, Prany said:

No, it's not opinion. Like good enemies they make players to move out of comfort zone. Players who refuse to addapt will suffer. Players who do addapt will succeed ten times out of ten. And with choice of warframe, two ranged weapons, one melee weapon, companion and specters there are multiple ways how to addapt. There are multiple ways how to aproach nullifiers. And if you execute your aproach right, you will succeed. They are also highly visible and their bubbles give out signature humm meaning they can't do surprise drop on you. And they synergize with allied mobs and thus make nullifiers' influence on battlefield noticable. As it is befitting for advanced enemy type. And like I said, these attributes are not opinion - term that people usually in wrong are wery fond of - synergy, significance, visibility and counter-ability are cornerstones of good enemy design. Especially for advanced enemies like nullifiers.

As for their flaws, I can give that once on blue moon they can oneshot players with their lankas. Laser sight similar to ballista's would be nice. Boosting weapon swap and/or giving snipers, bows and shotguns their own interections with bubbles so they can be just as effective as automatic weapons in one way or another. Their spawn rate could be toned down a little bit and given hard cap of three or four nullies at a time. They should prevent summons from entering bubble in the first place and static abilities like globe or bastille shouldn't be dispelled - merely not have any effect under bubble. There, few minor tweaks and nullifiers are little fairer and (since it's so important) consistant.

Did you called me out for twisting proof to benefit my position when I myself already called out lack of citation? I brought it up because it was all I found regarding eximi lore. And it was never the less more than you brought up - mere speculations which I by the way countered with my own speculations (aformentioned "nuh-uh, ya-huh" situation). But fine, let's diregard speculations and shady "proof". Let's try good old logic. (And I should kick myself for not thinking of this earlier)

Nullifiers disrupt void powers.

Nullifiers can use eximus powers.

Logical conclusion is that eximus powers are NOT void powers.

You and this thread in large have commited cardinal sin of logical thinking - you choose position (that nullifiers are inconsistant) and find proof that would support this position (eximus powers are void powers). But that is not how it works. Right way is other way around - to look at given values (nullifiers disrupt void powers and can use eximus powers) and make conclusions based on givens (since nullifiers can use eximus powers, it's unlikely eximus powers are void powers).

So remind me, what did you accuse me of back there?

On the other hand the prevalence of Nullifiers, Comba, Scramba, etc are robbing Warframe of a game play experience that feels like Warframe. The frequency with which they spawn - remember, they now spawn on ALL Fissures - and the amount of any mission spent without powers makes Warframe feel on many missions like another generic shooter.

That's a bit of a problem.

[SolarDwagon]

Stop feeding the troll.

[lol_NICK_lol]

17 hours ago, Prany said:

Nullifiers disrupt void powers.

Nullifiers can use eximus powers.

Logical conclusion is that eximus powers are NOT void powers.

You and this thread in large have commited cardinal sin of logical thinking - you choose position (that nullifiers are inconsistant) and find proof that would support this position (eximus powers are void powers). But that is not how it works. Right way is other way around - to look at given values (nullifiers disrupt void powers and can use eximus powers) and make conclusions based on givens (since nullifiers can use eximus powers, it's unlikely eximus powers are void powers).

So you believe that eximus powers are not void powers and thus eximus globes under nullifier bubbles are not contradictory. While I could give eximus powers and nullifiers the benefit of the doubt, the next logical step is the question why are we still keeping our void powers?

Major benefits of eximus powers:

1. Not being nullified (obviously)

2. Fire eximuses: Fire ring is fking op at high lvls. (Grind down ur shields immediately and knock you down. With a few of them at high lvls, you are basically stunlocked and die after the third wave hits you)

3. Frost eximus: The frost globe acts the same as Frost snow globe, albeit smaller and may not protect target as effectively, at least it cant be nullified. The globe is a bit small, but mods could alleviate that. Whether mods apply to eximus power remains to be seen, but that goes too far into fantasy and I will not mention it. But really, a bunker/slow aura that follows u everywhere, that's a perk Frost itself doesnt have.

You said that static abilities like frost globe and bastille should not be dispelled yet lose their effectiveness under the influence of nullifiers. In that case, I'll take a eximus globe every day every week. Even if the eximus bubble is smaller, some protection is better than none at all.

 

Another problem, which you have addressed, is the hard damage cap on the nullifier bubbles, which make bow, sniper, semi-auto weps awfully uneffective. This makes certain playstyle totally uneffective. If certain squads try to challenge themselves by using sniper only, or melee only without naramon and high crit wep, they'll probably be dead when enemies reach 100+. The obvious solution would be as what u stated -- separate interactions for those weps, or instead set a fix health cap on those bubbles. Seriously, the reason why they have not set a health cap on the bubbles eludes me, not like it is hard to code at all with eximus globes and frost globes following the same principle. They could easily set a reasonable health that would take auto weps and other weps roughly the same time to kill a bubble.

 

One could say adapting to changes is an essential attribute every successful gamer should have, and indeed i agree with this statement wholeheartedly. However, it does not imply that we should adapt to everything a game has to offer. Before pulling out the 'Adapt or you have no right to nay say' argument, first we must ask ourselves, is the element reasonable or not? No one would ever say, 'Oh! Why are you complaining about bugs, they are in the game, we should adapt to it, the devs have no obligations to change anything!' Bugs are not reasonable, and we do not and will never adapt to such 'elements' in the game. Whether nullifiers are reasonable or not, that is of course personal opinion, but I strongly argue that they are not. I will not state difficulty as a reason, cause a walk-in-the-park game provides no enjoyment. Instead, I will argue that nullifiers directly reduce the diversity of gameplay. Just like bullet sponge common enemies that promote CC usage instead of creative fight, nullifiers reduce effectiveness of playing using different weps, particularly melee only. And not just that, people are using mainly hikou p with concealed explosives or their glaives to kill nullies instead of their favourite weps. I dont think nullies should be removed but must be changed immensely, otherwise the devs would just be creating meta, the exact opposite reason why nullies are created.

 

Nullifiers being 'advanced enemies' put them under a halo, which guards them from a lot of criticism and are cited as a main reason why they should not be removed or changed. Again, what constitutes advanced enemies. To me, nullies are just another bullet sponge, just that they are not the sponge themselves but their bubbles. I fail to see how they are 'advanced enemies'. They are just another 'put enough bullets into them' and they'll die enemy. To facilitate discussion, we must have a clear definition of advanced enemies before we could proceed.

 

And while we are at it, a bit off topic is mesa's peacemaker and its effects on nullies. One would think that the bullet from mesa passing through a nully shield would be nullified or deflected, just like ash's shuriken. Indeed, enemies in the bubble could not be targeted and the bubble is akin to a 'brick wall', blocking the sight to every enemy in it. However, enemies behind the bubble but not in it could still be targeted and astoundingly, killed. It is as if the bullet appear out of thin air behind the bubble and strike the target. I dont know why but i guess the 'bullets' from mesa's peacemaker is not really bullets at all, but instead reduces enemy health when targeted. I rarely find myself pointing finger to devs, but frankly this is really lazy coding and a clear break in consistency. (This is still the case before SoTR, though i have not tried it myself again after the nully change since i found myself in another hiatus. I do not find any mention of it in changelogs so i assume it still remains true. If such is not the case anymore, I hold responsibilities to any mistakes and discrepancies.)

 

P.S. I dont know why I just spend so much time typing a comment. The thread is basically dead and another about nullies will pop up given time. I am tired and so are both the sides in this charade. I hope the devs realise this. Inaction is not inherently superior to action. While whether to change it or not is their own business, I find endless complaining foolish. (Just don't play the game really. As a modern gamer we are spoiled with choices.) I typed this comment because I hope something will come out of it and make the game better, like most discussion threads, but without a formal reply, the powerlessness will slowly creep in. This is one of the most controversial topic in the game, and putting a nail in the coffin would at least answer some of our doubts. Give us hope, if not, end it quickly.

[Prany]

17 minutes ago, lol_NICK_lol said:

So you believe that eximus powers are not void powers and thus eximus globes under nullifier bubbles are not contradictory. While I could give eximus powers and nullifiers the benefit of the doubt, the next logical step is the question why are we still keeping our void powers?

Major benefits of eximus powers:

1. Not being nullified (obviously)

2. Fire eximuses: Fire ring is fking op at high lvls. (Grind down ur shields immediately and knock you down. With a few of them at high lvls, you are basically stunlocked and die after the third wave hits you)

3. Frost eximus: The frost globe acts the same as Frost snow globe, albeit smaller and may not protect target as effectively, at least it cant be nullified. The globe is a bit small, but mods could alleviate that. Whether mods apply to eximus power remains to be seen, but that goes too far into fantasy and I will not mention it. But really, a bunker/slow aura that follows u everywhere, that's a perk Frost itself doesnt have.

You said that static abilities like frost globe and bastille should not be dispelled yet lose their effectiveness under the influence of nullifiers. In that case, I'll take a eximus globe every day every week. Even if the eximus bubble is smaller, some protection is better than none at all.

There can be many lore reasons why tenno don't use eximus powers, ranging from limits of eximus tech to tenno pride. Gameplay reason of course is obvious - what is the point of power nullifier unit if we could use powers that can't be nullified.

 

23 minutes ago, lol_NICK_lol said:

Another problem, which you have addressed, is the hard damage cap on the nullifier bubbles, which make bow, sniper, semi-auto weps awfully uneffective. This makes certain playstyle totally uneffective. If certain squads try to challenge themselves by using sniper only, or melee only without naramon and high crit wep, they'll probably be dead when enemies reach 100+. The obvious solution would be as what u stated -- separate interactions for those weps, or instead set a fix health cap on those bubbles. Seriously, the reason why they have not set a health cap on the bubbles eludes me, not like it is hard to code at all with eximus globes and frost globes following the same principle. They could easily set a reasonable health that would take auto weps and other weps roughly the same time to kill a bubble.

Nullifier bubbles don't use set health because our damage is way too obscene. Set it around 100k hp and top tier weapons will barely notice. Mid tier weapons however will go through magazine after magazine. Gated damage ensures that nullifiers avoid all shortcomings of level scailing and both newby's karak and 1337 pro's Soma Prime perform equally well against enemy met in half of star chart. Now all that is left is getting this functionality to single shot weapon classes.

 

40 minutes ago, lol_NICK_lol said:

One could say adapting to changes is an essential attribute every successful gamer should have, and indeed i agree with this statement wholeheartedly. However, it does not imply that we should adapt to everything a game has to offer. Before pulling out the 'Adapt or you have no right to nay say' argument, first we must ask ourselves, is the element reasonable or not? No one would ever say, 'Oh! Why are you complaining about bugs, they are in the game, we should adapt to it, the devs have no obligations to change anything!' Bugs are not reasonable, and we do not and will never adapt to such 'elements' in the game. Whether nullifiers are reasonable or not, that is of course personal opinion, but I strongly argue that they are not. I will not state difficulty as a reason, cause a walk-in-the-park game provides no enjoyment. Instead, I will argue that nullifiers directly reduce the diversity of gameplay. Just like bullet sponge common enemies that promote CC usage instead of creative fight, nullifiers reduce effectiveness of playing using different weps, particularly melee only. And not just that, people are using mainly hikou p with concealed explosives or their glaives to kill nullies instead of their favourite weps. I dont think nullies should be removed but must be changed immensely, otherwise the devs would just be creating meta, the exact opposite reason why nullies are created. Give us hope, if not, end it quickly.

I agree that we should question every design choice. Originally I didn't like nullifiers; in fact I hated them with all my passion. But I thought and I learned. I mastered dealing with nullifiers and enjoyed every moment of it. And I realized what Warframe is missing - it has lot of customization with frames, weapons, companions, mods, team setups and whatever else you can come up with, but it lacked something to customize towards. Before that I would pick my loadout like whatever and deal with any challenges like whatever. After nullifiers choice between orthos and jat kittag alone felt more meaningful than entire loadout before.

What is good of choices if they all end up practically indistinguishable from each other: press a button to kill everyone or press a button to make it easy to kill everyone. Nullifiers can throw a curweball in this sleepy (in)action and when that happens what you have chosen and how you choose to deal with nullifiers actually matters.

1 hour ago, lol_NICK_lol said:

Nullifiers being 'advanced enemies' put them under a halo, which guards them from a lot of criticism and are cited as a main reason why they should not be removed or changed. Again, what constitutes advanced enemies. To me, nullies are just another bullet sponge, just that they are not the sponge themselves but their bubbles. I fail to see how they are 'advanced enemies'. They are just another 'put enough bullets into them' and they'll die enemy. To facilitate discussion, we must have a clear definition of advanced enemies before we could proceed. us hope, if not, end it quickly.

Be reminded of koopas and goombas from Mario game series! First enemy designed was koopa troopa, but developers felt that two step action (jump on them and then kick them away) to dispatch them was too complex for basic enemy. So goombas were introduced who could be dealt with simple stomp. Goombas thus are basic enemies like Warframe's elite/lancers, troopers, chargers, MOAs, crewmen. You don't need any tactics to deal with them beyong point and click. They are just moving turrets that dispense harm to players and they're not even good at this single task. Koopas are more in depth like bursas, combas, ancients and nullifiers. These enemies have abilities of their own, need to be attacked with right attacks, from right direction, at righ time, there might be consequences for failure of proper aproach and so on and so forth. Essentially enemies who can't be dealt with most basic move. Like nullifiers.

 

2 hours ago, lol_NICK_lol said:

And while we are at it, a bit off topic is mesa's peacemaker and its effects on nullies. One would think that the bullet from mesa passing through a nully shield would be nullified or deflected, just like ash's shuriken. Indeed, enemies in the bubble could not be targeted and the bubble is akin to a 'brick wall', blocking the sight to every enemy in it. However, enemies behind the bubble but not in it could still be targeted and astoundingly, killed. It is as if the bullet appear out of thin air behind the bubble and strike the target. I dont know why but i guess the 'bullets' from mesa's peacemaker is not really bullets at all, but instead reduces enemy health when targeted. I rarely find myself pointing finger to devs, but frankly this is really lazy coding and a clear break in consistency. (This is still the case before SoTR, though i have not tried it myself again after the nully change since i found myself in another hiatus. I do not find any mention of it in changelogs so i assume it still remains true. If such is not the case anymore, I hold responsibilities to any mistakes and discrepancies.)

Case with Mesa is departure from logic and consistency for sake of gameplay. Yes, it would make more sense and be more consistant from real life logic if bubbles would block peacemaker bullets, but not from gameplay perspective. Peacemaker is designed to damage everything in front of Mesa. Nullifiers are designed to disable all tenno powers inside the bubble. So if there is nullifier in front of Mesa, peacemaker will damage everything in front of her except anything in the bubble. That's just how these game mechanics interact. Making them interect any other way would result in inconsistant gameplay.

Now, if peacemaker is made from hitscan to projectile weapon, then bubbles should block it.

2 hours ago, lol_NICK_lol said:

P.S. I dont know why I just spend so much time typing a comment. The thread is basically dead and another about nullies will pop up given time. I am tired and so are both the sides in this charade. I hope the devs realise this. Inaction is not inherently superior to action. While whether to change it or not is their own business, I find endless complaining foolish. (Just don't play the game really. As a modern gamer we are spoiled with choices.) I typed this comment because I hope something will come out of it and make the game better, like most discussion threads, but without a formal reply, the powerlessness will slowly creep in. This is one of the most controversial topic in the game, and putting a nail in the coffin would at least answer some of our doubts. Give us hope, if not, end it quickly.

I guess I come across as weirdo because I post on this thread because it's fun. At least for me. And not in trolling kind of way. I sincerely find thinking and discussion enjoyable.

[RealPandemonium]

21 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

On the other hand the prevalence of Nullifiers, Comba, Scramba, etc are robbing Warframe of a game play experience that feels like Warframe. The frequency with which they spawn - remember, they now spawn on ALL Fissures - and the amount of any mission spent without powers makes Warframe feel on many missions like another generic shooter.

That's a bit of a problem.

There's wayy more to Warframe than pressing the 1-4 buttons.

Missions with Nullifiers are also not "missions without powers," especially in the current environment where energy is trivial to keep up.  Nullifiers are a speedbump at best in all content except 70+, where all gameplay breaks down along with Nullifiers.  

Edited August 12, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[BlackCoMerc]

27 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

There's wayy more to Warframe than pressing the 1-4 buttons.

Missions with Nullifiers are also not "missions without powers," especially in the current environment where energy is trivial to keep up.  Nullifiers are a speedbump at best in all content except 70+, where all gameplay breaks down along with Nullifiers.  

Have you seen Europa? Easily entire hallways, corridors and even some of the open areas literally blanketed in Nullifier bubbles. Corpus missions often are missions without powers.

But worse than the AMOUNT of time we spend without powers - and this is very, very key, so please, Nullifier supporters, pay attention here - worse than the sheer AMOUNT of time we spend without powers, is the QUALITY of the time we spend without powers.

Utterly surrounded by enemies and in need of CC to buy you some space? Not on Fissure missions. Not on Corpus missions. Chances are, you got that many enemies on screen, either you or they are surrounded by a Bubble. So when you need your powers most...you guessed it...they dont help you.

The amount of time alone spent without powers isnt the crux of the problem. There's far more to it than that. Hordes of tough enemies under a Bubble mean when we need our powers the most...we dont get to use them. Capture targets, an opportunity for the creative deployment of powers in order to resolve a mission OUR way...nope. Sorry. Ineligible. Because...reasons. Ditto for scan targets. 

At every point in the game where our powers are at their most useless...they are also at their LEAST reliable. This game is on a slow path toward gear check shooter. Enjoy!

[RealPandemonium]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Have you seen Europa? Easily entire hallways, corridors and even some of the open areas literally blanketed in Nullifier bubbles. Corpus missions often are missions without powers.

But worse than the AMOUNT of time we spend without powers - and this is very, very key, so please, Nullifier supporters, pay attention here - worse than the sheer AMOUNT of time we spend without powers, is the QUALITY of the time we spend without powers.

Utterly surrounded by enemies and in need of CC to buy you some space? Not on Fissure missions. Not on Corpus missions. Chances are, you got that many enemies on screen, either you or they are surrounded by a Bubble. So when you need your powers most...you guessed it...they dont help you.

The amount of time alone spent without powers isnt the crux of the problem. There's far more to it than that. Hordes of tough enemies under a Bubble mean when we need our powers the most...we dont get to use them. Capture targets, an opportunity for the creative deployment of powers in order to resolve a mission OUR way...nope. Sorry. Ineligible. Because...reasons. Ditto for scan targets. 

At every point in the game where our powers are at their most useless...they are also at their LEAST reliable. This game is on a slow path toward gear check shooter. Enjoy!

Absolute hyperbole, and also Synthesis targets are vulnerable to all powers, only developing immunity to each power after it has affected them once.

Unfettered use of powers allows one player to effectively solo missions that have 4 Tenno in them.  I think that 4 team members should be able to deal with the Nullifiers one way or another.

[Nedow40]

Well, I think if we had a sub class weapon that can penetrate the Nulli Bubble this would not be a huge problem. Yes it is a band-aid solution, but it should help DE to Balance the Bubble as they want. Yes I'm talking about Bows and Snipers.
One thing that should help too is just a sweetspot.

Lore wise I think the Nulli Bubble would act as normal Shields from Corpus.

[Chipputer]

5 minutes ago, Nedow40 said:

Well, I think if we had a sub class weapon that can penetrate the Nulli Bubble this would not be a huge problem

We already do. They call them Glaives.

[Nedow40]

3 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

We already do. They call them Glaives.

The thing with low damage and a little chance to pop it? Yeah, I already knew it, but since it is THE only way to do, many people won't use it.
My idea is to give a thing called "Variety", which players can choose to go with a Bow, a Glaive, a Secondary pistol, or even a Sentinel to do it.
BTW, Kubrows could kill the Nulli and be a tool for these moments BUT, the "Attack command" that Kubrows have IS a power. So, Nulli = no power. At least my kubrows and friend's kubrows dont seem to like going Vs a Nulli. That only give us three way to pop this Bubble: Glaive to maybe pop the bubble, Shoot until it pop or enter the bubble to kill it from the inside.

[Chipputer]

10 minutes ago, Nedow40 said:

BTW, Kubrows could kill the Nulli and be a tool for these moments BUT, the "Attack command" that Kubrows have IS a power.

Kubrows and Kavats attack the nullifiers normally all the time. Their attacks are not considered a power. I don't know what you're talking about. Are you referring to the Sunika ability to hold down a mob? That's entirely different.

11 minutes ago, Nedow40 said:

My idea is to give a thing called "Variety",

Giving Snipers and Bows the ability to pop bubbles would cause the exact opposite effect-- Everyone would just run the best secondary weapons they could and bring a sniper to hammer the nullifiers down as soon as they see them. Shifting the meta in response to something is not the solution to the problem. There is no reason to make a weapon type, as a whole, able to destroy an enemy that is already SUPER telegraphed, SUPER vulnerable to any direct damage, and SUPER easy to deal with using the tools already available to us.

13 minutes ago, Nedow40 said:

The thing with low damage and a little chance to pop it?

No, that thing that you throw on the floor next to it and cause the Glaive to explode which directly kills the nullifier, taking out the problem and the problem's source in one fell swoop. The only drawback is that you have to focus on the task for all of a second in order to aim it and hold down the melee button. You also have to take a melee weapon that isn't as effective in direct melee combat, but by the point that it matters you won't be using melee anyway.

[Inarticulate]

43 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Have you seen Europa? Easily entire hallways, corridors and even some of the open areas literally blanketed in Nullifier bubbles. Corpus missions often are missions without powers.

I have no problem keeping Prowl or World on Fire or Iron Skin active for the entirety of a run on Europa.

44 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Utterly surrounded by enemies and in need of CC to buy you some space? Not on Fissure missions. Not on Corpus missions. Chances are, you got that many enemies on screen, either you or they are surrounded by a Bubble. So when you need your powers most...you guessed it...they dont help you.

The amount of time alone spent without powers isnt the crux of the problem. There's far more to it than that. Hordes of tough enemies under a Bubble mean when we need our powers the most...we dont get to use them.

You can shoot a Nullifer bubble 3 times or so to make most of the units covered by the bubble vulnerable. Any weapon with punchthrough can kill a newly exposed unit and damage the bubble sitting behind it.

You have more tools in your toolbox than just your Warframe powers. There's a damned good reason you're not allowed to leave all three of your weapon slots empty. I honestly don't see why there is so much resistance to "bring a sidearm that covers for your primary weapon's weaknesses", which is common sense in just about any other game that lets you do so.

If you bring a purely elemental weapon to a sortie with the elemental enhancement condition, you should expect to have a hard time. If you only want to use only your Warframe powers to bulldoze through a Nullifier, you should also expect to have a hard time.

52 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Capture targets, an opportunity for the creative deployment of powers in order to resolve a mission OUR way...nope. Sorry. Ineligible. Because...reasons. Ditto for scan targets. 

How about we stay on topic.

[Nedow40]

16 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

There is no reason to make a weapon type, as a whole, able to destroy an enemy that is already SUPER telegraphed, SUPER vulnerable to any direct damage, and SUPER easy to deal with using the tools already available to us.

So what if. Just what if, a certain Punchthrough (3,0 m) had a chance to only punch the shield and reach the Nulli giving him a little damage?
Please, give a counter-idea, not a counter-argument. This forum is already full of it.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Nedow40
all the typos you wish to see

[rngd444]

On 11.8.2016 at 10:25 PM, Prany said:

No, it's not opinion. Like good enemies they make players to move out of comfort zone. Players who refuse to addapt will suffer. Players who do addapt will succeed ten times out of ten. And with choice of warframe, two ranged weapons, one melee weapon, companion and specters there are multiple ways how to addapt. There are multiple ways how to aproach nullifiers. And if you execute your aproach right, you will succeed. They are also highly visible and their bubbles give out signature humm meaning they can't do surprise drop on you. And they synergize with allied mobs and thus make nullifiers' influence on battlefield noticable. As it is befitting for advanced enemy type. And like I said, these attributes are not opinion - term that people usually in wrong are wery fond of - synergy, significance, visibility and counter-ability are cornerstones of good enemy design. Especially for advanced enemies like nullifiers.

Of course you'd ignore the important part you even quoted, as always. You can keep your elitist 'get good' ad hominem in disguise to yourself since you're completely missing the point. It was never, and everyone keeps reminding people like you on a regular basis since you seem to forget every two minutes or so, a problem of adaption or the lack thereof. All this redundant reciting of their characteristics has nothing to do with the stuff I meant but you were too occupied to make your point. Also, you calling these attributes good design is still your opinion, no matter how you twist it, again.

 

On 11.8.2016 at 10:25 PM, Prany said:

Did you called me out for twisting proof to benefit my position when I myself already called out lack of citation? I brought it up because it was all I found regarding eximi lore. And it was never the less more than you brought up - mere speculations which I by the way countered with my own speculations (aformentioned "nuh-uh, ya-huh" situation). But fine, let's disregard speculations and shady "proof". Let's try good old logic. (And I should kick myself for not thinking of this earlier)

You were the one who threw logic out the first time around:

On 9.8.2016 at 3:33 PM, rngd444 said:

For me, it's only logical because if they really were supposed to block bullets, those bullets still wouldn't do anything while being inside of them. It's a field that supposedly prevents power usage wherever said field is and not so much a shield for that matter. The field doesn't stop existing when you enter it as clearly seen due to ability cast prevention, so, why should shooting have any effect in there by current standards?

On 9.8.2016 at 5:41 PM, Prany said:

You're looking for lore explanations for game mechanics. To this I give you advice - if you have issue with one or another game mechanic, discuss it from perspective of game mechanics not lore or realism.

I never used 'lore' as an explanation unlike you incidentally trying all of a sudden. Lore doesn't equal realism but realism equals logic, at least to a certain extent.

 

On 11.8.2016 at 10:25 PM, Prany said:

Nullifiers disrupt void powers.

Nullifiers can use eximus powers.

Logical conclusion is that eximus powers are NOT void powers.

Yes, you should really kick yourself for this. Do you think this is somehow brilliant? It's merely an assumption and to use your ways of argumentation: since game mechanics do not have to be realistic and therefore logical, this doesn't have to be true in any way. Brilliant.

 

On 11.8.2016 at 10:25 PM, Prany said:

So remind me, what did you accuse me of back there?

I accuse you of not being able to discuss properly as you omit arguments as you please while you only counter the things that feel weak for your personal view by bringing out-of-place facts and anecdotes into your reasonings. You're welcome.

 

On 11.8.2016 at 10:25 PM, Prany said:

As for their flaws, I can give that once in blue moon they can oneshot players with their lankas. Laser sight similar to ballista's would be nice. Boosting weapon swap and/or giving snipers, bows and shotguns their own interections with bubbles so they can be just as effective as automatic weapons in one way or another. Their spawn rate could be toned down a little bit and given hard cap of three or four nullies at a time. They should prevent summons from entering bubble in the first place and static abilities like globe or bastille shouldn't be dispelled - merely not have any effect under bubble. There, few minor tweaks and nullifiers are little fairer and (since it's so important) consistant.

You could've spared yourself all those posts, bring this in instead and you would've achieved so much more as it's basically combining the things that've been asked for forever (make slow firing weapons more viable, tweak summon's AI and fixing their spawns) and the reversion of the recent changes. But you were in for the sake of the spoiled discussion since you have more fun doing so instead of seeing how all the pointless back and forth will further delay them actually doing something about the stuff we both agree on needing change.

 

9 hours ago, Prany said:

Case with Mesa is departure from logic and consistency for sake of gameplay. Yes, it would make more sense and be more consistant from real life logic if bubbles would block peacemaker bullets, but not from gameplay perspective. Peacemaker is designed to damage everything in front of Mesa. Nullifiers are designed to disable all tenno powers inside the bubble. So if there is nullifier in front of Mesa, peacemaker will damage everything in front of her except anything in the bubble. That's just how these game mechanics interact. Making them interect any other way would result in inconsistant gameplay.

This makes no sense at all and there is nothing consistent about it. Hitscan doesn't equal 'bullets directly spawning inside of enemies' but merely having infinite projectile speed, otherwise you should be able to shoot through Nullifiers with any hitscan weapon. To make Peacemaker consistent from a 'game play' perspective, they would have to make her able to shoot down the bubbles; just like Excalibur is able to with Exalted Blade. I think you simply missed his point of being able to shoot enemies behind bubbles or at least it appears so.

 

7 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Giving Snipers and Bows the ability to pop bubbles would cause the exact opposite effect-- Everyone would just run the best secondary weapons they could and bring a sniper to hammer the nullifiers down as soon as they see them. Shifting the meta in response to something is not the solution to the problem. There is no reason to make a weapon type, as a whole, able to destroy an enemy that is already SUPER telegraphed, SUPER vulnerable to any direct damage, and SUPER easy to deal with using the tools already available to us.

I can hardly believe everyone would start using sniper rifles all of a sudden. Letting them remain in their current state only for the sake of not shifting weapon use (if at all) from the admittedly most boring type to something else is a tad stupid. Besides, there aren't only absolutes; it would be totally possible to make them just viable without being overpowered. Also, 'meta' is totally out of place in this context, as usual.

By the way, what would be your solution to make weapons currently underperforming because of their nature (slow firing single shot damage) or lack of logic (pellets considered as 'simultaneous hits' and therefore denying any effectivity shotguns could potentially have) viable to shrink the bubbles?

[cghawk]

while I hate nullifiers I hate capture targets even more, they don't even need a nullifier bubble to be immune to powers

[IceColdHawk]

15 hours ago, Chipputer said:

We already do. They call them Glaives.

 

14 hours ago, Nedow40 said:

The thing with low damage and a little chance to pop it? Yeah, I already knew it, but since it is THE only way to do, many people won't use it.
My idea is to give a thing called "Variety", which players can choose to go with a Bow, a Glaive, a Secondary pistol, or even a Sentinel to do it.
BTW, Kubrows could kill the Nulli and be a tool for these moments BUT, the "Attack command" that Kubrows have IS a power. So, Nulli = no power. At least my kubrows and friend's kubrows dont seem to like going Vs a Nulli. That only give us three way to pop this Bubble: Glaive to maybe pop the bubble, Shoot until it pop or enter the bubble to kill it from the inside.

Just wanted to jump in to clear out a misinformation. You could penetrate them with glaives. Since the latest nullifier buff from Specters of the Rail update, this is no longer the case. Glaives themself and their explosion through power throw will penetrate the bubble but won't do any damage to the crewman, even if you throw the glaive inside the bubble and let it explode it won't hurt the nully crewman, it will just shrink the bubble a bit.

 

Edited August 13, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Prany]

6 hours ago, rngd444 said:

Of course you'd ignore the important part you even quoted, as always. You can keep your elitist 'get good' ad hominem in disguise to yourself since you're completely missing the point. It was never, and everyone keeps reminding people like you on a regular basis since you seem to forget every two minutes or so, a problem of adaption or the lack thereof. All this redundant reciting of their characteristics has nothing to do with the stuff I meant but you were too occupied to make your point. Also, you calling these attributes good design is still your opinion, no matter how you twist it, again.

You mean this:

 

On 8/11/2016 at 9:58 PM, rngd444 said:

That's just ridiculously stupid. Instead of them fixing their game, we are supposed to stop using the stuff they implemented in order for them to remove Nullifiers?

Yes, reason why nullifiers were introduced is very hoaky, but, as I have argumented, they can stand on their own and do it fairly well. You can counter them in plenty ways and still are left with hundreds of choices.

6 hours ago, rngd444 said:

You were the one who threw logic out the first time around

What I meant is that lore and real life logic should give precedence to gameplay mechanics. My apologies if I was not clear.

 

6 hours ago, rngd444 said:

Yes, you should really kick yourself for this. Do you think this is somehow brilliant? It's merely an assumption and to use your ways of argumentation: since game mechanics do not have to be realistic and therefore logical, this doesn't have to be true in any way. Brilliant.

No, it's not brilliant. I'm not sure why would you assume that that I think it's brilliant. It's not. It's very, very basic.

And calling it assumption is like calling "If A=B and B=C than C=A" assumption. And again, I never stated that game mechanics shouldn't be logical and consistant. They should be even at the expense of realism and lore.

6 hours ago, rngd444 said:

I accuse you of not being able to discuss properly as you omit arguments as you please while you only counter the things that feel weak for your personal view by bringing out-of-place facts and anecdotes into your reasonings. You're welcome.

You made yourself a strawman up there so your accusitions don't come across as very convincing. Never the less, if you feel like I've missed any argument of your's, feel free to point it out.

6 hours ago, rngd444 said:

You could've spared yourself all those posts, bring this in instead and you would've achieved so much more as it's basically combining the things that've been asked for forever (make slow firing weapons more viable, tweak summon's AI and fixing their spawns) and the reversion of the recent changes. But you were in for the sake of the spoiled discussion since you have more fun doing so instead of seeing how all the pointless back and forth will further delay them actually doing something about the stuff we both agree on needing change.

Splendid, we agree on something. And of course I'm here because I find it fun. Why else I would be here?

Oh yes, of course, to point out faulty premise of this thread.

6 hours ago, rngd444 said:

This makes no sense at all and there is nothing consistent about it. Hitscan doesn't equal 'bullets directly spawning inside of enemies' but merely having infinite projectile speed, otherwise you should be able to shoot through Nullifiers with any hitscan weapon. To make Peacemaker consistent from a 'game play' perspective, they would have to make her able to shoot down the bubbles; just like Excalibur is able to with Exalted Blade. I think you simply missed his point of being able to shoot enemies behind bubbles or at least it appears so.

Wrong, hitscan is exactly that - damage manifesting in enemies. There are no infinitely fast projectiles because lack of them is very premise of hitscan. Nullifier bubbles prevent void powers inside them and Mesa's peacemaker can't damage anything inside them. Like it should be. Bublles don't prevent powers outside them and since there are no projectiles on peacemaker, there is nothing for bubbles to intercept. Look at it this way, for peacemaker bubble ant it's contents doesn't exist. If we would give peacemaker projectiles, then of course bubbles should stop them and protect mobs behind them.

See, it's 100% logical and consistent as gameplay mechanics. It doesn't make sense from viewpoint of realism, but, as I mentioned, realism gives precedence to gameplay.

And golly, if exalted blade can still damage bubbles, it should be fixed asap. So that it's consistent with other powers and we can put this yapping about lack of consistancy at rest.

[rngd444]

22 hours ago, Prany said:

Splendid, we agree on something. And of course I'm here because I find it fun. Why else I would be here?

Oh yes, of course, to point out faulty premise of this thread.

Everyone's focus should be here to make feedback as concise and constructive as possible, so, the developers won't get flooded even more and we all benefit from a potentially faster change. So yeah, arguing for the sake of the argument could be called a tad stupid even if you like it. Obviously, I like arguing (and therefore am guilty) as well but I'd still like to put the actual outcome first. So, instead of endlessly pointing out the flaws made in this particular thread, we should focus on the stuff everyone should be able to agree on (as seen just by the two of us on the reasonable changes you listed) and shift this meaningless debate to the core problem.

I did address the upper part of your post as well at first but at the end of writing the above passage, I decided to axe it completely since we were pretty much going round in circles over said meaningless stuff.

 

22 hours ago, Prany said:

Wrong, hitscan is exactly that - damage manifesting in enemies. There are no infinitely fast projectiles because lack of them is very premise of hitscan. Nullifier bubbles prevent void powers inside them and Mesa's peacemaker can't damage anything inside them. Like it should be. Bublles don't prevent powers outside them and since there are no projectiles on peacemaker, there is nothing for bubbles to intercept. Look at it this way, for peacemaker bubble ant it's contents doesn't exist. If we would give peacemaker projectiles, then of course bubbles should stop them and protect mobs behind them.

See, it's 100% logical and consistent as gameplay mechanics. It doesn't make sense from viewpoint of realism, but, as I mentioned, realism gives precedence to gameplay.

And golly, if exalted blade can still damage bubbles, it should be fixed asap. So that it's consistent with other powers and we can put this yapping about lack of consistancy at rest.

Seen from an implementation perspective, yes, there are no infinitely fast projectiles but that's what they're supposed to simulate if you will. Hitscan being superior to space and time isn't really something I'd call logical even from a game play point of view but it doesn't really matter. Personally, I haven't played Mesa yet, so, I have no self-interest in this; still, I think all those 'toggle-able power weapons' should be able to shrink the bubbles to a certain but ineffective extent just for the sake of more fluid game play. I definitely support the idea that people should not stay in Exalted Blade or with Artemis Bow indefinitely but by this given logic, we'd even have to prevent Hysteria from being able to hit the bubbles melee which would completely render the ability's purpose useless anywhere where Nullifiers are present.

Edited August 14, 2016 by rngd444

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Honestly, Nullifiers lost their place when Comba and Scrambus were added.

Not only do they (in most cases) only disable SOME (not all) of your powers, there's also a permanent solution to get rid of the debuff, if you're fast enough. This way, they're threatening while not being completely broken and annoying. From now, we should replace all nullies with those two enemies.

Hell, I would even be fine with replacing corrupted nullifiers with corrupted Scrambus/Comba if that were the case...

[Prany]

7 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Honestly, Nullifiers lost their place when Comba and Scrambus were added.

Not only do they (in most cases) only disable SOME (not all) of your powers, there's also a permanent solution to get rid of the debuff, if you're fast enough. This way, they're threatening while not being completely broken and annoying. From now, we should replace all nullies with those two enemies.

Hell, I would even be fine with replacing corrupted nullifiers with corrupted Scrambus/Comba if that were the case...

It's funny how people call nullifiers unfair while at the same time praising modular corpus. I mean, what nullifiers do with slow fire rate weapons, modular corpus do with buff reliant frames. And unlike nullifiers, modulars are much harder to notice with their drab color schemes, in most tiles can't be engaged without being exposed to their huge area auras, they rush player's position and deal insane amount of damage which combined with target seeking, fairly rapid firing shotgun becomes bullS#&$ very fast. And how do they enrichen our gameplay experience? They don't. You either power spam them to death before they get in your line of sight (like you would do with any other enemy), or, if you don't spam powers, shoot them in the face (like you would do with any other enemy).

I recall level hundred mobile defence sortie with elemental enhancment which I tried to tacckle solo. Difference between nullifiers and modulars was startling. Whenever I failed because of nullifiers, I could tell what I did wrong and what should I do to avoid it next time. Most of the time I even realized that "I've done goofed" few seconds before dying. Modulars were exact opposite - there was nothing to learn, nothing to addapt to, nothing to predict. I simply lost all my usefull powers and fell to the ground - all in less than in a second. Modulars could as well be using instant death radius at that level - radius that once out of four times can't be countered. This made aformentioned sortie a luck based mission - I won when no modular with detron and counter to my usefull abilities was spawned. Yes, I won only because game let me.

Nullifiers may not be perfect, but they sure as hell are better than that joke of an enemy design.

[MirageKnight]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:10 PM, Chipputer said:

We already do. They call them Glaives.

So...we should equip ourselves with a weapon to counter / deal with an ability / feature of a very specific enemy? In doing so, we've just gimped ourselves when dealing with the rest of the Corpus / Corrupted faction and whatever allies are tagging along with that enemy.

You do also realize your argument kind of reinforces the whole point that Nullifiers are bad because they're basically requiring gear checks to deal specifically with them, right?

Nullifiers and their bubbles are little more than a convoluted and misguided attempt to deal with ability spam...and frankly there are better ways of addressing that issue that don't involve arbitrarily turning our powers off and thus turning the WF experience into little more than a Third Person Shooter with fancy outfits.