Please Dont Nerf Ash

[Weltraumfred]

Yeah, don't nerf Ash, just make Bladestorm into less of a broken mess. 

Then again, reducing the broken messiness of Bladestorm would be considered a nerf by some.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

30 minutes ago, Momaw said:

• Except, you DO ask me to join your squad, by playing on public matchmaking. :)
• There is also the question of reward versus skill to consider. Even if you only play Ash with other consenting adults, how is it fair that one warframe completely owns almost every mission without challenge or risk while other people have to play much harder to get the same rewards?
• How do you expect to stop being a "poor player" (you said it, not me) and become skilled at the game and all its mechanics, if you don't try? Ash is a crutch that is holding players back from learning how to use the other tools available because he is the "most efficient" choice in most circumstances. It's not like I expect everybody to be a world class twitch aim champion either, there are other easy to use warframes that are extremely useful to the team...They just don't wipe the map with a single button.

 

- If i host a game, rest assured that it will be either full from my friends or invite only. and i don't join randoms unless on specific request asking for my help.

If you are hosting from the channel, just mention NO ASH,, problem solved.

- So if other players don't have ash or they don't want to play it then we have to pay for that?  also we do not claim to own the map,

Does banshee owns it? slova? ...

- I am satisfied to be and stay a poor player, yes i said it myself yes, and  it's my choice. i have no desire to become a skilled player like so many players :)

Edited August 10, 2016 by (XB1)Oussii

[Weltraumfred]

6 minutes ago, NN13 said:

There are many things that ignore armor. So, why just Bladestorm?

Because the ability to ignore armor is not quite the problem with Bladestorm. The problem is the combination of invulnerability and highly efficient roomclearing, and when the roomclearing begins to fall short, Bladestorm awards invulnerability frames to the enemy instead.

[NN13]

Just now, Weltraumfred said:

Because the ability to ignore armor is not quite the problem with Bladestorm.

If you heard Scott, it is one of the many problems. By no means I am saying that Bladestorm is not OP and should not be re-worked. But if they remove the armor ignore from it, then why not others?

As for invulnerability , yes, that's a problem, but not the only one.

And the bigger question is - Why is armor always the problem? I never hear anyone complain about Shields. What it means is that Armor itself is the problem here. We don't need anything to remove Shields because they are not insane. And in almost every high level game with Armor, we need frames or mods to shred that armor.

[venon23]

1 hour ago, Nox_Terminus said:

Ember - WoF doesn't scale very well, and only hits up to 4 targets at any given point, heat proc notwithstanding.

Equinox - Maim deals low damage initially, and takes a long time to reach critical mass for its dispel nuke effect, and even then doesn't apply damage evenly to targets in range.

Oberon - Reckoning deals piddling damage and thus scales poorly, but is useful for its radiation/blind procs.

Nova - Molecular Prime turns enemies into bombs that allies can shoot.

Mag - Crush acts as a strong CC with damage as a secondary benefit

Saryn - Miasma and the rest of her kit is all about combos, and she was nerfed pretty hard, but for good reason.

None of these frames are invincible while using these abilities.

Ash's Bladestorm is getting reworked because it offers no interactivity by the rest of the squad, and is easily spammed. Every other CC does not block allies from interacting with affected enemies, unless they immediately die. In other words, Bladestorm is being fixed because it is an outlier of AoE abilities.

What will we do when challenging events come out? We'll come up with strategies as a community which dont entail press 4 to auto-kill the map. There will be actual difficulty, and actual team play, whats not to like?

this dude sayed it all congrats some one with my view point of things

[[DE]Momaw]

24 minutes ago, NN13 said:

You yourself gave the example of Slash procs. Now think about Equinox. Ignores armor as well. So, why not re-work that as well?

Maybe, it is about time DE focuses on actually fixing enemy scaling instead of pushing out rework upon rework.

Every single source of armor removal is a crutch for the armor scaling problem, from Slash procs and Shuriken to Vauban's Shred.

Maim should be reworked as well. Not because of its damage but because it is "automatic damage". You turn it on then you win, just like Bladestorm.  The fact that more than one cheesy ability which encourages players toward one button playstyles exists, is not a valid defense to justify their existence. It's possible for the multiple individual things to all be bad for the same reasons.

I tend to think armor scaling is a problem as well, in fact I wrote a bunch about that. But even if armor disappeared entirely as a gameplay mechanic, that wouldn't stop the Bladestorming. The armor ignoring behavior is just one element of what makes it so overpowered and to say otherwise is disingenuous.  The real issue is that it's auto-targeting, ignores line of sight, and grants invulnerability. It rapidly and efficiently defeats the enemy in a way that doesn't require the player to exercise any skill nor accept any risk at all, and in fact denies other players (limited by aiming and line of sight i.e. skill-based gameplay) the ability to participate in a meaningful way...that is why it is bad.

As far as Ash being a kind of necessary counter to enemy scaling, how would you fix enemy scaling such that Bladestorm is not still the easiest way to play the game?

Edited August 10, 2016 by Momaw

[AnonumusSoldier]

To clear up a mistaken idea in this thread, Im not saying dont give Ash a rework, im saying dont nerf him into the ground, (example, Mesa was nerfed to consume a $&*&*#(%& amount of energy, and still does, it wasn't until her secondary weapon buff made her viable again without a Trin standing next to her)  

Yes alot of frames can deal with 100+ enemies, but Ash is the only frame that can deal with HOARDS of them. Which in defense and interception sorties i get all the time. I bring all kinds of frames and the teams just cant cut it. They die, i revive them, i kill enemies, they die some more, i revive them, mission failed due to over run intercept points....gg... Take tonight's corpus sortie intercept, I ran it 5 times with 4 different frames (saryn, nyx, booben, Chroma (see the escalation there)) getting most kills, most revives and least deaths, before saying fk it and brought Ash. And we won. gg. went home. 

And you all want to nerf that? You think this is going to make people "work together better" ?!? HA. All its going ot do is make our lives HARDER as we slog thru sorties with tanks waiting for a good enough team that can keep up

 

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by AnonumusSoldier

[AnonumusSoldier]

And thank you for whoever said that they changed their minds about the toggle, that just increases my fears. 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

2 minutes ago, AnonumusSoldier said:

To clear up a mistaken idea in this thread, Im not saying dont give Ash a rework, im saying dont nerf him into the ground, (example, Mesa was nerfed to consume a $&*&*#(%& amount of energy, and still does, it wasn't until her secondary weapon buff made her viable again without a Trin standing next to her)  

Yes alot of frames can deal with 100+ enemies, but Ash is the only frame that can deal with HOARDS of them. Which in defense and interception sorties i get all the time. I bring all kinds of frames and the teams just cant cut it. They die, i revive them, i kill enemies, they die some more, i revive them, mission failed due to over run intercept points....gg... Take tonight's corpus sortie intercept, I ran it 5 times with 4 different frames (saryn, nyx, booben, Chroma (see the escalation there)) getting most kills, most revives and least deaths, before saying fk it and brought Ash. And we won. gg. went home. 

And you all want to nerf that? You think this is going to make people "work together better" ?!? HA. All its going ot do is make our lives HARDER.

 

 

I would like to Add that my Ash saved so many times the sortie survival game and revived all the squad members.

In fact, they ask me to play Ash as it is their last line of defense.

You see the game is not about who kills more, it's about wining the mission

and even if Oberon does it, it's fine with me

[Shadow8600]

I'm getting my fix of Ash now, because I know he might go the way of the dodo once the 'rework' is in. Call it cynicism, but I don't think it will end as well as Mag's.  Am I going to cry in a corner? Nope, barely use him as is. However I do feel bad for people who have spent countless hours and forma getting him 'just right'. Those who use the excuse of it's not a 'challenge' when X thing is used by someone else makes no sense to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. If you want a challenge, play with a Mk-1 Braton and no mods, knock yourself out. While I agree that a game like this needs change to survive, this does not and hopefully will not mean nerf.

Some seem to want to be in an origin system where we're made of papier-mâché, our abilities rendered useless by an entire faction, and possibly throwing fluffy marshmallows at them. These people will scream nerf at anything remotely useful in the hands of anyone but them.

Whatever the case may be, I generally trust DE. They have not done anything horrible since I started playing, and I will continue to financially support them as often as I can. 

Edited August 14, 2016 by Shadow8600

[_Iye]

5 minutes ago, AnonumusSoldier said:

And you all want to nerf that? You think this is going to make people "work together better" ?!? HA. All its going ot do is make our lives HARDER.

This one thing, this thing; people dont get it. They just can think thats its op/not interactive/even in another post people are looking for fun-unfun facts into bladestorm and screams out for the change but either they are intentionally want ASH to be nerfed just because He cant let those people get the kills or they just dont like the way ASH works. People just forgetting what happened to the reworked frames.

Edited August 10, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[AnonumusSoldier]

I also don't know why people keep saying you can't damage Bladestorm marked enemies. Maybe they secretly removed this or something but i kill marked enemies all the time. Actually tick Ash players off that have crap build because i  finish off their marked enemies while they are still working on a single target and their like wtf because their bladestorm was cut short.

[Weltraumfred]

14 minutes ago, AnonumusSoldier said:

And you all want to nerf that? You think this is going to make people "work together better" ?!? HA. All its going ot do is make our lives HARDER as we slog thru sorties with tanks waiting for a good enough team that can keep up

Yeah, I totally want to nerf that. Because, assuming the same player skill, Ash was obviously dominating that game. And that shouldn't be. BTW, having Saryn and Nova on the team can make a lot of the high end Sorties quite manageable. Also more fun for the other players, who actually get to shoot all the primed/poisoned/viral-ed enemies, and watch them blow up.

Now don't mistake me, Ash should get something in return, but BS, as it is, is broken and needs some fixing.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Weltraumfred

[AnonumusSoldier]

1 minute ago, Weltraumfred said:

Yeah, I totally want to nerf that. Because, assuming the same player skill, Ash was obviously dominating that game. And that shouldn't be. BTW, having Saryn and Nova on the team can make a lot of the high end Sorties quite manageable. Also more fun for the other players, who actually get to shoot all the primed/poisoned/viral-ed enemies, and watch them blow up.

Now don't mistake me, Ash should get something in return, but BS, as it is, is broken.

Brought Saryn to Corpus Sortie Intercept: 

Killed 500 enemies did 25 revives. Died 1 time. Allies> between 19-25 kills each. 0 revives 2-3 deaths each. all over Mastery 15. 

Same Sortie> Brought Ash. Killed 800 enemies, did 5 revives.  Allies> between 19-50 kills each, 0 revives, 0 deaths. each. all over Mastery 15.

[Urlan]

Something along the lines of an exalted wrist knife with reduction on abilities costs while active would be useful. Ultimately though, we don't have much of a say whether Ash is nerfed or pumped by such a change. Similar to Specters itself and the workshop thread, the devs will do what they feel is best and we will see after the fact.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

You see the game is not about who kills more, it's about wining the mission

I cannot agree to this unless you're playing something from Telltale Games. Games are created to overcome obstacles, not trivialize it from the very beginning. Even Mario offers at least some degree of cheap tricks to make us feel less empowered. We should be fighting to have a sense of gaining more power by defeating enemies, not the other way round.

21 minutes ago, AnonumusSoldier said:

And you all want to nerf that? You think this is going to make people "work together better" ?!? HA. All its going ot do is make our lives HARDER as we slog thru sorties with tanks waiting for a good enough team that can keep up

Then we will overcome these challenges, like we've done since we started playing this game. I'll just grab my Lesion for extra shield sorties instead of Ash. Shouldn't be a big deal.

[Lactamid]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

You don't like it, cool, don't play with it and don't team up with someone using ash

In a game where you're meant to team up with others and a large portion of the games played are with random people joining you're not asking for the same, you're asking for limitation.

The issue with bladestorm is the capability of it. The balance of it compared to other frames. What can it do?
As is BS can do something that is far beyond what the other frames can do, hence the OP statement.
"Ash haters" want the team to go in with the same chance of worth, but with varrying ways of reaching it. Ash can do a lot of damage with very little effort, he can do so against much greater odds and on top of it without much risk. He can also do it repeatedly. This makes it easy, cheap, cheesy.
Is the skill bad? No not really, but the effort it takes to use it is so much smaller that when playing as another frame you at times stand there without the possibility to do anything.
Your chances are deminished, and not because another player is more skilled than you, but because it in its' design, blade storm just is a lot easier to kill with.

So when you tell players not to join ash players you're not saying "it's your choice, simply avoid it" you're saying; do more so I can keep doing less, work harder so I don't have to.

The change is not about making Ash useless, but making him more balanced. He could even become potentially more powerful but through effort and skill.
Just like Rhino and Nezha can stomp or spear enemies into the air making them sitting ducks Ash may still end up jumping around killing enemies, but he might not be invoulnerable while doing so, he might need to move on his own vs. a timer reaching as many enemies he can during that time or what ever DE comes up with.

Keeping Ash the way he is and pleasing "Ash haters" from the other end might be either to buff skills into rediculuos damage stats or via the matchmaking option "exclude Ash", which I hope you find to as much of a terrible idea as me.

 

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

at the end of the day, if DE keeps shuriken and teleport stay roughly the same, then i'll be happy. I like playing as ash, but care very little for bladestorm and smokescreen.

he's still a badash motherf*****

 

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, Lactamid said:

When you have missions like "shotgun only" or "sniper only" players who have Ash can use bladestorm and obliterate the enemies without ever using the specified weapon, bypassing the entire challenge that was intended.

To be fair, those sorties s*ck because the only constant is "Sniper-only on Corpus Sortie" with the others showing up from time to time to convince us it's a fair system. It should be replaced with Faction-only weapons (Example: You need to EXTERMINATE a platoon of AMBULAS units at NODE. Mechanical disruptors in the area will jam enemy weapons, CORPUS weapons will be your only option) so we can go with full loadouts instead of trying to uselessly pop a nulli bubble with a bazillion sniper shots.

 

Back to Bladestorm, our only hope is that DE picks the right suggestions from the Forum and rework Ash accordinly instead of coming up with another d*mb idea like the "World on Bladestorm" one they tried for some unfathomable reason.

I hope they pick up either this guy's suggestions:

Spoiler

 

or my suggestion:

Spoiler

 

Because so far are the only ones that actually solve the problems with Ash's entire ability set. Other suggestions are either overpowered and Espammable exalted weapons, Mesa's peacemaker knock-offs with shurikens and conga lines of clones.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Xekrin]

 

6 hours ago, NN13 said:

You do?

Uhm, yes I do. Rank 0, or unranked, ie they have no intention whatsoever of using the weapon at all and plan entirely on spamming Bladestorm.  Not sure how that was confusing but hope this helps.

6 hours ago, NN13 said:

Let me guess...Corrosive Projection?

Uhm, no. You guessed wrong.  On most of my frames I'm simply far too lazy to repolarize the aura slot so it is usually rejuv or rifle amp equipped.

[Nox_Terminus]

5 hours ago, Momaw said:

Maim should be reworked as well. Not because of its damage but because it is "automatic damage".

Don't know if you realize this, but Maim only deals a particular amount damage once per enemy in range. It does not kill enemies outright without utilizing either the accumulated damage in its dispel burst, or killing them with weapons or other abilities. Additionally the only way to deal a significant amount of damage is by maximizing power strength and using Provoke in conjunction with Maim, which still only deals just under 2000 damage (which is typically much less than the damage of a fully modded primary weapon), and only once per each enemy affected in its range.

TLDR - Automatic damage is something which needs to be looked at, but Maim is hardly imbalanced.

[Rossman86]

6 hours ago, AnonumusSoldier said:

Take tonight's corpus sortie intercept, I ran it 5 times with 4 different frames (saryn, nyx, booben, Chroma (see the escalation there)) getting most kills, most revives and least deaths, before saying fk it and brought Ash. And we won. gg. went home. 

And you all want to nerf that? You think this is going to make people "work together better" ?!? HA. All its going ot do is make our lives HARDER as we slog thru sorties with tanks waiting for a good enough team that can keep up

 

 

That whole story is an example of exactly why it needs to be nerfed. 4 people should not be carried by one single ability. Those players had no business being in a sortie if they couldn't win that. Boosted shield corpus interception is not even close to being the hardest sortie. If people are so lazy that they can't take 90 seconds to properly prepare gear for a mission then they can fail for all eternity for all I care.

[RealPandemonium]

12 hours ago, Nox_Terminus said:

Ember - WoF doesn't scale very well, and only hits up to 4 targets at any given point, heat proc notwithstanding.

WoF scales pretty well.  1000 damage per tick (not including Heat proc) with Accelerant is pretty strong.  Remember that when using Accelerant, power strength is effectively applied twice to all of Ember's direct damage powers.  With 227% powerstr, that 400 damage tick turns to 400 * 2.5 * 2.27 * 2.27 = 5153, which is pretty strong even without the Heat procs, which boost the damage even further.  

The only things that stop WoF in its tracks are armor scaling and Eximus auras, which are both problematic for all damage sources.  

[AnonumusSoldier]

10 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

WoF scales pretty well.  1000 damage per tick (not including Heat proc) with Accelerant is pretty strong.  Remember that when using Accelerant, power strength is effectively applied twice to all of Ember's direct damage powers.  With 227% powerstr, that 400 damage tick turns to 400 * 2.5 * 2.27 * 2.27 = 5153, which is pretty strong even without the Heat procs, which boost the damage even further.  

The only things that stop WoF in its tracks are armor scaling and Eximus auras, which are both problematic for all damage sources.  

What he means is that the higher you go the less WoF insta nukes everything. Which is true. Which is why people stop using it after level 40 enemies. Which is dumb, because that's when I start using my knock down WoF build. Playing WoF below that unless speed running something is just dumb and annoys team mates.

Edited August 10, 2016 by AnonumusSoldier

[AnonumusSoldier]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Nice try, but a slash proc is nowhere equivalent to finisher damage.

Comments like these...Man I can't wait for the bladestorm nerf. Next we'll work on removing the crutch that is the synoid simulor.

I don't like simulor either but it has its uses. Chroma + Simular is how I got thru a 300 kill Rathuum (pre nerf) and out survived the ash/valk cheesers.

 

Why does this community keep wanting to kill everything they dont like/call it a crutch ect when a large portion of the comunity doesnt? When will you be happy, when everything is nerfed to hell and your loki and boltors are viable end game material again? No thanks

Edited August 10, 2016 by AnonumusSoldier