Bows get magical x2 bonus firerate, but not charging weapons??

[Darthmufin]

On 8/13/2016 at 0:18 AM, Retequizzle said:

To be completely blunt, it gets 1k damage unmodded with a 5 round magazine and a 2.5 second charge time.  Even if we take 20% of every number listed in the previous sentence, it still performs better than most bows in the game.  I'd even go so far as to say it is pretty much better than a bow in every capacity except for ragdolling enemies and getting kills that way.

Bear in mind that it has access to Spring-Loaded Chamber, a mod that speeds up fire rate of rifles by 75% for 9 seconds (while aiming) per reload.  You can actually go through the entire magazine of an Opticor using Spring Loaded + Speed Trigger + Vile Acceleration and still have two seconds to spare, give or take.  Not to mention you get what, 540 rounds as an ammo reserve for a weapon that just disintegrates most things it hits directly?

You could go with this cookie cutter build and be set for pretty much any faction with the spare slots available:

https://gyazo.com/420b9e446048ee16229821ffdff3b1b6

In the end, the issue here isn't that Opticor should be treated as a bow.  If anything, there's a lot of room to work with for versatility in terms of a weapon that, in recent weeks, has become pretty rare to see in general use because of other *@(! dominating a self-imposed community "meta".  Maybe stop focusing on just one mod and "BAW I CAN'T BELIEVE IT DOESN'T GET SAME BONUS AS *insert weapon of choice here*" and focus on what things this weapon can do that bows can't.

explain to me how 8k puncture reduced to about 3k damage against heavy armor, is worth it? Adding all those fire rate mods makes the weapon useless, you lower the damage potential too much. The real question, is why do bows get some magical advantage, is it more tenno space magic like having unlimited air in archwing but need to breath in survival? why not just use the air tanks of the archwing and eliminate survival? That is a road you do not want to walk. 

plus i almost forgot a few points. one, the puncture mod is useless like the impact mods, the payoff of more puncture does not exceed the damage of more elemental. secondly, the damage listed is if both shots fire with multishot, take of split chamber and that is the real damage, per shot. so about 5k total damage, that gets reduced by grineer armor by over half, leaving you with 1-2k damage per 'bullet'. That's crap. And all so you could increase the fire rate a tiny bit by shoving it with fire rate mods. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Darthmufin

[traybong111]

Maybe to give Arcane Acceleration some purpose? This always bothered me too, though I'm not exactly sure how I'd go about this. Maybe change some fire rate mods but not all to apply universal bonus to charge weapons? No, no, that's too inconsistent, doesn't change anything. Get rid of the magical bonus to bows, buff some of the fire rate mods accordingly (I'd really like Speed Trigger back at +90% fire rate), and balance all charge weapons' charge time across the board? 

[SquireAngel]

The only issue I really find that sticks out is the Opticor. I would much rather see a simple Opticor buff than a double fire rate on other charged weapons. The Lanka and the Ogris are fine without dual fire rate, although the Ogris COULD use a little more kick, as it's supposed to be a rocket launcher >_>

[JeyciKon]

11 hours ago, Darthmufin said:

no, they buffed them to double because people have been asking DE for a buff of that kind for a long time, especially because of bows like the dread. the time to take another arrow is so tiny even on the daikyu that is isn't worth mentioning. 

dude, im almost sure fire rate mods allways 2x on bow, it just wasnt specified before... im not 100% sure tho.

[k05h]

On 13.8.2016 at 7:02 AM, hammerheathen said:

Sancti Tigris does more damage than the opticor (by a lot) and has no charge rate. I don't find this a valid argument.

^ so true

The Opticor is victim of its rediculous charge rate. And lets not forget that you also have a reload of 2 seconds every 5 shots. Therefore even with all 3 charge rate mods the Opticor is still no match for Dread, Paris P or Cernos.

[JeyciKon]

1 minute ago, k05h said:

^ so true

The Opticor is victim of its rediculous charge rate. And lets not forget that you also have a reload of 2 seconds every 5 shots. Therefore even with all 3 charge rate mods the Opticor is still no match for Dread, Paris P or Cernos.

but what does it have anithing to do with fact that bows get 2x on fire rate mods?

[k05h]

3 minutes ago, JeyciKon said:

but what does it have anithing to do with fact that bows get 2x on fire rate mods?

Fire rate mods reduce charge time of charge weapons. Ergo 2x fire rate on charge weapons would make them more viable ingame.

Edited August 18, 2016 by k05h

[JeyciKon]

1 hour ago, k05h said:

Fire rate mods reduce charge time of charge weapons. Ergo 2x fire rate on charge weapons would make them more viable ingame.

But do you understand why bows get 2x and others dont?

[k05h]

24 minutes ago, JeyciKon said:

But do you understand why bows get 2x and others dont?

^ ???

You got me confused. That is what the OP was complaining about with his post and I just supported his arguments.

The OP wrote:

Quote

bow's get a fancy buff that magically allows fire rate mods to affect them at twice the rate, yet just as slow charge weapons like the ogris or opticor are left behind? How is that fair?

Just to put this in perspective here, the dread has a charge rate of 1.0, and the opticor has a slower charge rate of 2.50, more than double the dread, yet the dread gets twice the fire rate bonus. 

To put my prior posts it in other words: charge weapons and bows should have the same fire rate multiplier. They currently do not have the same multiplier. Thus making bows the better choice. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by k05h

[JeyciKon]

1 minute ago, k05h said:

^ ???

You got me confused. That is what the OP was complaining about with his post and I just supported his arguments.

The OP wrote:

To put my prior posts it in other words: charge weapons and bows should have the same fire rate multiplier. They currently do not have the same multiplier. Thus making bows the better choice. 

wrong, do this math:

On 13/08/2016 at 11:47 AM, JeyciKon said:

just tell me: if a bow has 0.7 reload and 0.5 charge, thats 50 arrows p/minute,  you add +100% fire rate, now how many does it shot p/minute?
now if a non-bow has 1.2 charge, 50 p/minute like the bow, add 50% fire rate, how many does it shoot p/minute now?

do me this simple math please.

[hammerheathen]

2 hours ago, JeyciKon said:

but what does it have anithing to do with fact that bows get 2x on fire rate mods?

He's responding to something I said when someone claimed the opticor did too much damage to get a decent charge rate. The amount of damage the opticor does is regularly beat by bows and the sancti tigris, it's neither here nor there really, just that the idea of it hitting too hard should limit it for charging. I'd wholeheartedly agree, if it were not for other weapons completely negating this point.

Mechanically speaking Bows are essentially charge weapons, but the reload speed gets them, they are, or at least were typically defined by high and reliable crit with a charge that thematically fit drawing a bow. With the exception of the rakta cernos they had a slow draw speed but the damage made up for it.

The problem in this thread in my opinion is that people are associating the double charge speed as something that uniquely defines bows, when it's something that is fairly recent honestly. Personally I think that the "reload" of bows should be very minute unless it's thematically a heavy hitter like the daikyu (thematically not functionally).

Long story short, Bows get the bonus, because they kinda need it and it fits. Other charge weapons pretty much need it, but didn't get it. It's just the state of where things are.

[Retequizzle]

On 8/17/2016 at 5:52 PM, Darthmufin said:

explain to me how 8k puncture reduced to about 3k damage against heavy armor, is worth it? Adding all those fire rate mods makes the weapon useless, you lower the damage potential too much. The real question, is why do bows get some magical advantage, is it more tenno space magic like having unlimited air in archwing but need to breath in survival? why not just use the air tanks of the archwing and eliminate survival? That is a road you do not want to walk. 

plus i almost forgot a few points. one, the puncture mod is useless like the impact mods, the payoff of more puncture does not exceed the damage of more elemental. secondly, the damage listed is if both shots fire with multishot, take of split chamber and that is the real damage, per shot. so about 5k total damage, that gets reduced by grineer armor by over half, leaving you with 1-2k damage per 'bullet'. That's crap. And all so you could increase the fire rate a tiny bit by shoving it with fire rate mods. 

I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.  

I left the last two mod slots open for the specific reason of modding for your preferred damage type - if you're not a fan of Piercing Caliber then no one's forcing you to use it.  You're complaining about the Opticor's charge time, so when I show you a build that gives you a viable charge time, you complain that the -15% from Vile Acceleration is too much of a loss.  End of the day, different strokes for different folks.  I'm pretty sure I could take this into a solo survival and get bored after an hour just the same as you would with your build, so I don't understand the fuss over damage numbers.

[Spergin_McBadposter]

Just use S.Tigris instead of Opticor. It already hits harder than opticor before mods, and you can stack even more damage boosting stuff on it instead of needing 3 RoF mods to bring it up to a usable speed.

[Endorphinz]

Well with charge weapons, you have an entire magazine to go through. Bows have to draw a new arrow after every shot. Besides, when you look at it, the double draw speed isn't really too much of a boost.

Let's look at the 1.0 second charge speed, with a 60% fire rate mod.

Without  x2 bonus: 1.0/(1.0+0.6) = 0.625 charge rate

With the x2 bonus: 1.0/(1.0+2(0.6)) = 0.4545 charge rate

Due to the formula used for determining charge speed, the higher your fire rate modifier, the less benefit you receive from it.

[(PSN)THE_HUNTER96929]

On 18/08/2016 at 7:49 AM, Darthmufin said:

no, they buffed them to double because people have been asking DE for a buff of that kind for a long time, especially because of bows like the dread. the time to take another arrow is so tiny even on the daikyu that is isn't worth mentioning. 

The 2x doesnt mean twice the buff, it means two of them

[(PSN)salovel1991]

On 8/17/2016 at 4:52 PM, Darthmufin said:

so about 5k total damage, that gets reduced by grineer armor by over half, leaving you with 1-2k damage per 'bullet'. That's crap.

Last I checked puncture damage had a bonus on Grineer armor. 

[Darthmufin]

On 8/22/2016 at 1:20 AM, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

Last I checked puncture damage had a bonus on Grineer armor. 

yeah and heavy grineer armor will reduce about 60% of the damage at level 50 puncture damage or not. 

[Darthmufin]

On 8/18/2016 at 9:14 PM, Retequizzle said:

I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.  

I left the last two mod slots open for the specific reason of modding for your preferred damage type - if you're not a fan of Piercing Caliber then no one's forcing you to use it.  You're complaining about the Opticor's charge time, so when I show you a build that gives you a viable charge time, you complain that the -15% from Vile Acceleration is too much of a loss.  End of the day, different strokes for different folks.  I'm pretty sure I could take this into a solo survival and get bored after an hour just the same as you would with your build, so I don't understand the fuss over damage numbers.

The fact of the matter is the puncture mods are useless over more elemental damage, dude. You can waste your mod slots and add puncture for no reason if you want, that's your own deal. But that doesn't change the fact that they are useless and now pointless on archwing. 

[Autongnosis]

On 13/8/2016 at 0:47 PM, JeyciKon said:

It was always 2x, it just wasn't specified on the description before. there was no buff.

No, it was actually a buff :) Originally bows worked like every other charge type weapon. Incidentally you can verify that because even Attica got "buffed" by that change (Zhuge is too new, wasn't around then), it being considered a bow .-.

 

Now onto the main topic, the problem with Opticor is not the charge time, but the lack of innate punchthrough AND the way punchthrough and the surface explosion interact with one another (hint: badly).

If Opticor was to get a modicum of innate punchthrough, or the bow effect, and a fix for its explosion mechanics, it would become really a great weapon. As of now, it's insane but only with very specific setups.

[Darthmufin]

4 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

No, it was actually a buff :) Originally bows worked like every other charge type weapon. Incidentally you can verify that because even Attica got "buffed" by that change (Zhuge is too new, wasn't around then), it being considered a bow .-.

 

Now onto the main topic, the problem with Opticor is not the charge time, but the lack of innate punchthrough AND the way punchthrough and the surface explosion interact with one another (hint: badly).

If Opticor was to get a modicum of innate punchthrough, or the bow effect, and a fix for its explosion mechanics, it would become really a great weapon. As of now, it's insane but only with very specific setups.

the point isn't whether the optictor should be buffed, the point is whether bows should gain tenno fairy magic or whatever and somehow gain a double bonus from firerate for no reason when charge weapons have always been weaker than bows and needed the buff more. 

[Autongnosis]

39 minutes ago, Darthmufin said:

the point isn't whether the optictor should be buffed, the point is whether bows should gain tenno fairy magic or whatever and somehow gain a double bonus from firerate for no reason when charge weapons have always been weaker than bows and needed the buff more. 

The reason has been said already, it's because bows have no magazine and thus have to reload after each shot :)

[Darthmufin]

On 8/31/2016 at 6:54 PM, Autongnosis said:

The reason has been said already, it's because bows have no magazine and thus have to reload after each shot :)

That isn't a valid argument even if that were true since the "reload" is like 0.2 seconds. No, they made bows have double firerate because people wanted a bow buff for some reason, but nobody thought twice about charge weapons which need the fire rate bonus more than bows, since even the weakest bow outmatches the best charge weapons. Sorry opticor fands, but other than it being fun it's clunky and very low damage compared to bows. 

[Darthmufin]

The miter is indeed another one that could be buffed but it's not hella slow like the opticor is

[DoomFruit]

On 13/08/2016 at 6:18 AM, Retequizzle said:

To be completely blunt, it gets 1k damage unmodded with a 5 round magazine and a 2.5 second charge time.  Even if we take 20% of every number listed in the previous sentence, it still performs better than most bows in the game.  I'd even go so far as to say it is pretty much better than a bow in every capacity except for ragdolling enemies and getting kills that way.

Don't forget the effect of mods. My fully pimped out Opticor does 6700 puncture and 14200 radiation damage (total = 20.9k), with a charge time of 0.89s - but note that you can't hold the charge. My dread, on the other hand, including criticals, does 3985 slash, 3985 cold and 7970 (total = 15.9k) corrosive, with a net charge time of 1.15s (reload + draw times, you can hold the charge). Crit headshots do twice the damage of non-crit headshots (so you've got a x2 multiplier over the opticor if you always go for the face), and I've got a 25% chance of red crits on the Dread for a further x2 multiplier.

Also, the Dread does slash damage, which is by far the best of the three physical damage types - the opticor build here will only be good against grineer and moderately good against corpus (puncture and rad are resisted by shields, but good against robotics), while the dread build can handle everything in the game.

[OvisCaedo]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 4:35 AM, Darthmufin said:

That isn't a valid argument even if that were true since the "reload" is like 0.2 seconds. No, they made bows have double firerate because people wanted a bow buff for some reason, but nobody thought twice about charge weapons which need the fire rate bonus more than bows, since even the weakest bow outmatches the best charge weapons. Sorry opticor fands, but other than it being fun it's clunky and very low damage compared to bows. 

It looks like most bows list reload times of .6 to .7 seconds, actually, but it's possible that the stats aren't exactly accurate representations. It's actually a bit funny looking at these numbers, because it seems possible that the Rakta Cernos's charge time is already so fast, reload speed might actually be more helpful on it.

Anyhow. Whether you want to acknowledge it as being a significant amount of time or not, the fact that there are two separate stats corresponding to amount of time it takes between bow shots is probably why they get a special bonus on one of them. It might feel unfair to the non-bow charge weapons if you really want to ignore that bit, but given that there are only four of them (at least of rifle class) and at least one is fine, it would PROBABLY be simpler to just buff the Miter/Ogris/maybe Opticor.

Edited October 5, 2016 by OvisCaedo