The Reason why Augment mods don't have their own slots and how to change that.

[Mr.Lube]

Intro/Reasoning -

Simply put. The reason we do not have reserved slots for our Warframe Augment mods is because the majority of them are straight up buffs to our abilities. I believe the reasoning behind this is that DE wants us to make a sacrifice (a mod slot) when it comes to using Augment mods. I agree with the thought process behind this but I feel as if it was implemented in the wrong way. I agree that their should be a level of choice and sacrifice when it comes to using Warframe Augments. But I do not feel that a mods slot is the right sacrifice. Instead of messing with your core build. What if Augments had a level of sacrifice built into them? Let me explain.

My solution -

The main goal I'm trying to accomplish here is to redesign Augments to not only alter the way a Warframe's power functions, but to augment the players' style of play. First off, each Warframe would have four Augment slots built in. Each slot would be reserved to a single ability in order to prevent the use of multiple Augments for the same ability.

Now, Augments would be redesigned as actual augmentations rather than basic upgrades. Augment mods would add an aspect to an ability, while taking something away as well. This gives the player a choice of whether of not they want the Augment over the base ability, or which Augment they wish to chose (once we get multiple augments for abilities).

Examples -

Ash (Fatal Teleport) - Teleport will perform a Finisher on the target, dealing 200% extra damage. Augment also removes the ability to teleport to allies.

This augment would provide a more aggressive style of play, while sacrificing some mobility.

 

Hydroid (Tidal Impunity) - Clears status effects and grants 6 seconds of status immunity for yourself and allies that come in contact with it. Augment removes the ability to knock down enemies.

This augment would provide a more supportive style of play, while sacrificing some aggression/survivability.

 

Valkyr (Eternal War) - While active Warcry's duration is increased by 2 seconds for each melee kill. Augment prevents Warcry from being applied to allies.

This augment promotes a hyper aggressive/selfish style of play, while sacrificing the supportive aspect.

 

Closing Thoughts -

I believe that having the player chose between different play styles is a better compromise than having the player give up one of their mod slots. On another note, there are some Augments that are already in the game that follow this concept. Augments like Despoil, Soul Survivor, and Atlas' Tectonics augment. Let me know what you think.

 

 

[ashrah]

would be good  extra slot for augments...

[Xekrin]

16 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

Augment mods would add an aspect to an ability, while taking something away as well.

I like this concept, sort of like corrupted augments.  I kinda dislike that we don't really have much incentive to use more than 1 augment at a time either.  Especially with limited mod slots it just isn't worth it.  At best there are only a couple frames with more than one mod that is worth the sacrifice using two at the same time.

 

[(XBOX)Woofsie]

Someone giving a unique and thoughtful idea for enhancing augments and making builds even more personal instead of the usual "Give us a slot" argument? 

IMBOSSIBLE!

[--F--NerevarCM]

25 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

Intro/Reasoning -

Simply put. The reason we do not have reserved slots for our Warframe Augment mods is because the majority of them are straight up buffs to our abilities. I believe the reasoning behind this is that DE wants us to make a sacrifice (a mod slot) when it comes to using Augment mods. I agree with the thought process behind this but I feel as if it was implemented in the wrong way. I agree that their should be a level of choice and sacrifice when it comes to using Warframe Augments. But I do not feel that a mods slot is the right sacrifice. Instead of messing with your core build. What if Augments had a level of sacrifice built into them? Let me explain.

My solution -

The main goal I'm trying to accomplish here is to redesign Augments to not only alter the way a Warframe's power functions, but to augment the players' style of play. First off, each Warframe would have four Augment slots built in. Each slot would be reserved to a single ability in order to prevent the use of multiple Augments for the same ability.

Now, Augments would be redesigned as actual augmentations rather than basic upgrades. Augment mods would add an aspect to an ability, while taking something away as well. This gives the player a choice of whether of not they want the Augment over the base ability, or which Augment they wish to chose (once we get multiple augments for abilities).

Examples -

Ash (Fatal Teleport) - Teleport will perform a Finisher on the target, dealing 200% extra damage. Augment also removes the ability to teleport to allies.

This augment would provide a more aggressive style of play, while sacrificing some mobility.

 

Hydroid (Tidal Impunity) - Clears status effects and grants 6 seconds of status immunity for yourself and allies that come in contact with it. Augment removes the ability to knock down enemies.

This augment would provide a more supportive style of play, while sacrificing some aggression/survivability.

 

Valkyr (Eternal War) - While active Warcry's duration is increased by 2 seconds for each melee kill. Augment prevents Warcry from being applied to allies.

This augment promotes a hyper aggressive/selfish style of play, while sacrificing the supportive aspect.

 

Closing Thoughts -

I believe that having the player chose between different play styles is a better compromise than having the player give up one of their mod slots. On another note, there are some Augments that are already in the game that follow this concept. Augments like Despoil, Soul Survivor, and Atlas' Tectonics augment. Let me know what you think.

 

 

Using your idea, would be better to remove augments as mods and use a system the weapon modifications from DOOM, each skill will have 2 augments and the player will choose in the ability menu in the arsenal which one you will use for each skill. But players will never let DE change augments and create downsides to them. Its a "nerf" then is "evil".

Edited August 14, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[RadiatedPlatypus]

The problem with adding Augment slots is that players will need even more mod space, using a heck ton more Forma just to fit in an Augment and also keep an extra mod slot for whatever else. The solution to this could be making Exilus and Augment slots halve the mod space of their respected mod types like a polarity match (since you can put them in any other slot anyway). Aura mods GIVE mod space since they can only be obtained via alerts and cannot be put in any other mod slot, so only halving the mod capacity cost seems like a fair idea to me.

[Mr.Lube]

56 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Using your idea, would be better to remove augments as mods and use a system the weapon modifications from DOOM, each skill will have 2 augments and the player will choose in the ability menu in the arsenal which one you will use for each skill. But players will never let DE change augments and create downsides to them. Its a "nerf" then is "evil".

Maybe people will scream nerf. But considering well over half of the augments we currently have are complete trash, I think it will be welcome.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Personally, I would make it so that you can place an ability augment in the exilus slot... It's by far the less crucial slot in a warframe's arsenal for most builds, might as well put your augment there if anywhere.

I feel this would also motivate more people to run two augments... One in the exilus and one in their main build perhaps, without as much impact as foregoing two damage/survivability mods.

[LuckyCharm]

I can see where this would be amusing and make for interesting gameplay. 

Soul punch (Nekros): Revive a fallen ally instantly, but break your own hand, causing a bleed effect for 12s

Hallowed erruption (oberon): Upon casting Hallowed Ground again with a previous instance still active, the first one will detonate, dealing all remaining damage as an AoE blast with a chance to deal  Radiation proc but you recieve no negative effects because you're already playing oberon. 

 

Sounds good to me. Anything to be able to use banshees augments without sacrificing all her survivability 

 

[Teridax68]

I really like this idea, and generally I think the idea of mods as sidegrades with interesting tradeoffs would be a fantastic way of allowing players to customize their playstyle and min-max without having to resort to power creep. My only recommendation, though, would be to have augments encourage more niche styles of play, rather than cater to a playstyle most people would choose out of convenience or the like. For this reason, I'd opt against removing supportive aspects to abilities, as it shuts off more challenging and interesting ways of playing Warframe, i.e. interacting with your allies, in favor of something ultimately less engaging, but far more tempting, i.e. solo/selfish play. 

[Drakenreiter]

Very much yes to what you said. In fact, this is what I thought augments would be, before they started implementing them.

[DSpite]

I don't see how the player base can just keep asking for stuff like this non stop. Do you have problem killing things right now? No, you don't, so if DE adds something that makes us more efficient at killing, they will balance that out on the enemies. For example, say hello to Nullifiers.

Is this the path people seriously wants? 20 mods slots, 2 Exilus slots, 4 Augment slots. Then we can fill all of them up and go fight Nullifiers Mark 2.

Charming.

How about we have Frame builds that have massive con-pros we have to deal with, and just fight reasonable enemies instead?

 

[Mr.Lube]

20 hours ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Using your idea, would be better to remove augments as mods and use a system the weapon modifications from DOOM, each skill will have 2 augments and the player will choose in the ability menu in the arsenal which one you will use for each skill. But players will never let DE change augments and create downsides to them. Its a "nerf" then is "evil".

I'm not too familiar with DOOM. Either way I feel like expanding on our current modding system would be easier and less scary to players since it's something they already know their way around.

[hammerheathen]

While I like this effect in principle, many augments are borderline required for abilities to be even decent. Many are also things that should be part of the powers as a baseline anyway, making some frames powers favored over others. The suggestions do nothing for those frames, so you are suggesting a sacrifice for things that should be native in the first place, as well as a sacrifice for a buff. The latter is fine, the former is not.

[Casval_Rouge]

The thing is, a lot of the augments should just be baseline.  They all make the powers, especially the boring ones interesting and not really a huge buff (Piercing Roar, Duality, give ally elemental damage, etc), yet it is not worth a slot.  I've tried fitting an augment in existing builds, tried making a build entirely around it, and it is just not worth it.  They aren't even better than Drift mods.  Yet they are much more interesting than bland stats increase...

However your suggestion not only take a lot of work (basically all powers with augs has to be reviewed, recoded), it doesn't really fix the problem.  Because another reason why DE don't just give us augment slots is because then everyone will just have an augment installed, regardless of power increase.  They all give extra utility, why would you not put one in?  Sure if you make them negative in other aspects, it might make them not auto include, but then it is a matter of just looking at an augment and see if it is worth it.  Doesn't change builds, doesn't change playstyles.

Honestly, I think long term it would be better if augments are like runes from Diablo 3.  Every power has at least two augments, you just choose which augment you want on.  Warframe isn't a game of hard hitting decisions, let's not pretend that it is.  It isn't a game of sacrifice either.  It is about customization. 

I rather DE just accept that fact and give us augment slots already.  We already have a working mod system that players understand it well, it has a lot of room for decision making, customization, optimization, it is MADE for stuff like augments, we do not need another system for augments. Right now they are only rendering augments worthless, and adding more that are still crap, they don't even go back and buff bad ones, only the very game changing ones like Irradiating Disarm and Resonating Quake are usable, so right now augments don't actually add anything to the game.  They are only there so Syndicate has worthwhile rewards besides weapons.

    

Edited August 15, 2016 by Casval_Rouge

[Mr.Lube]

17 hours ago, hammerheathen said:

While I like this effect in principle, many augments are borderline required for abilities to be even decent. Many are also things that should be part of the powers as a baseline anyway, making some frames powers favored over others. The suggestions do nothing for those frames, so you are suggesting a sacrifice for things that should be native in the first place, as well as a sacrifice for a buff. The latter is fine, the former is not.

That is a problem with bad Warframe design. Just because some powers need augments to be useful shouldn't be seen as a reason to not have something like this in place. We shouldn't expand and make decisions around faulty systems or mistakes.

[Mr.Lube]

16 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

However your suggestion not only take a lot of work

Most good things do.

16 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

Because another reason why DE don't just give us augment slots is because then everyone will just have an augment installed, regardless of power increase.  They all give extra utility, why would you not put one in?  Sure if you make them negative in other aspects, it might make them not auto include, but then it is a matter of just looking at an augment and see if it is worth it.

I don't think you understand. Sure, augments will add something extra to the ability, but they will also remove an existing aspect from it. It's not a matter of whether it is worth it or not, it's a matter of player customization. Take the Hydroid augment listed above as an example; the way you play changes when you equip that augment. You go from targeting enemies, to targeting your team. That is a change of playstyle.

16 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

Honestly, I think long term it would be better if augments are like runes from Diablo 3.  Every power has at least two augments, you just choose which augment you want on.  Warframe isn't a game of hard hitting decisions, let's not pretend that it is.  It isn't a game of sacrifice either.  It is about customization.

Customization is all about sacrifices and making things unique to YOU. Not slapping on every piece of equipment possible. That's not customization, that's optimization.

16 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

I rather DE just accept that fact and give us augment slots already.  We already have a working mod system that players understand it well, it has a lot of room for decision making, customization, optimization, it is MADE for stuff like augments, we do not need another system for augments. Right now they are only rendering augments worthless, and adding more that are still crap, they don't even go back and buff bad ones, only the very game changing ones like Irradiating Disarm and Resonating Quake are usable, so right now augments don't actually add anything to the game.  They are only there so Syndicate has worthwhile rewards besides weapons.

You are contradicting yourself. You say that DE should just add augment slots without changing how they actually function, but before you say you don't want players to "auto install" augments. What do you think will happen if they do what you are suggesting?

[DrBorris]

I hate to poo poo a well thought concept, but after a lot of time thinking exactly what you do OP I came to the conclusion that it is fine as it is.

 

Augments are augments, they AUGMENT (make greater) the power of a certain ability. Sure, a game mechanic that altered abilities sounds just as awesome but the concept of augmenting is just as valid. DE took the (admittedly lazy) approach of making their ability alteration mechanic straight buffs. Does this work though? Yes.

 

The devils advocate to your argument is that Augmenting is "doubling down" on a certain ability of a Warframe. You are not necessarily changing the abilities your Warframe has, just enhancing them with new power. For example, someone may love that good ole' Pull spam. For them adding more oomph to their favorite ability makes sense. Or in Snow Globe's case; Snow Globe is Frost's bread and butter, being able to double down on Snow Globe and make it even better is a interesting decision that can be given to players.

 

Basically what it comes down to is that you want something completely different from Augments than what they are intended to be. Maybe an additional system like this could be added, but the interactions between an ability "alteration" and Augments may be too complicated.

[hammerheathen]

4 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

That is a problem with bad Warframe design. Just because some powers need augments to be useful shouldn't be seen as a reason to not have something like this in place. We shouldn't expand and make decisions around faulty systems or mistakes.

Hence why I said I like your idea in principle. I think it would be awesome. I just don't want to see a bunch of frames and thus people screwed because of a bad system. My concern is that people being excited about this change will push those faulty systems further away from the light to gather dust ad infinitum

[Mr.Lube]

3 minutes ago, hammerheathen said:

Hence why I said I like your idea in principle. I think it would be awesome. I just don't want to see a bunch of frames and thus people screwed because of a bad system. My concern is that people being excited about this change will push those faulty systems further away from the light to gather dust ad infinitum

This new idea of mine is a way to tackle the problems the current system has. Right now augments are used as nothing but buffs to existing abilities that are useless. If this was a thing, DE would have to make abilities good on their own.

[Schregger]

On 8/13/2016 at 9:56 PM, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Using your idea, would be better to remove augments as mods and use a system the weapon modifications from DOOM, each skill will have 2 augments and the player will choose in the ability menu in the arsenal which one you will use for each skill. But players will never let DE change augments and create downsides to them. Its a "nerf" then is "evil".

Lets be real, the only way DE can get things done is to piss off some people. 

*Edit*

Actually, I should comment in the idea...

Meh...

Its not a bad idea, but at the same time, I dont like it. Mostly because I dont see the reason for having 4 augments on at the same time. And if DE isnt for giving a single aug slot, why would they give 4? Plus, making the augments more powerful, while also limiting they're abilities, sounds like it would make abilities less synergistic (yeah, its a word... surprised me too).

Edited August 16, 2016 by Schregger
Should reply on topic...

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, Schregger said:

Lets be real, the only way DE can get things done is to piss off some people. 

*Edit*

Actually, I should comment in the idea...

Meh...

Its not a bad idea, but at the same time, I dont like it. Mostly because I dont see the reason for having 4 augments on at the same time. And if DE isnt for giving a single aug slot, why would they give 4? Plus, making the augments more powerful, while also limiting they're abilities, sounds like it would make abilities less synergistic (yeah, its a word... surprised me too).

They would give us 4 slots because Augments would be direct side-grades aside from upgrades. Also, synergy is in the players' hands and if we had this players could tailor their Warframe to be more personal to their playstyle while not straying too far from the original design of the Warframe.

[Casval_Rouge]

16 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

Most good things do.

I don't think you understand. Sure, augments will add something extra to the ability, but they will also remove an existing aspect from it. It's not a matter of whether it is worth it or not, it's a matter of player customization. Take the Hydroid augment listed above as an example; the way you play changes when you equip that augment. You go from targeting enemies, to targeting your team. That is a change of playstyle.

Customization is all about sacrifices and making things unique to YOU. Not slapping on every piece of equipment possible. That's not customization, that's optimization.

You are contradicting yourself. You say that DE should just add augment slots without changing how they actually function, but before you say you don't want players to "auto install" augments. What do you think will happen if they do what you are suggesting?

I've originally written up a large wall of text in response to each of your quotes, but I'm just going to keep it simple.

We need augment slots for the sake of giving augments a chance of being used.  DE don't because power creep and doesn't add choices.  Your suggestion tries to justify the introduction of augment slots.  My opinion is that we already have sufficient justifications to add augment slots and DE refuse to see the long term consequences of not adding augment slots.  They see the state of the game now and think augments will be auto install.  Which is true because we don't have any choices right now.  What happens when they start adding more augments for powers that already has one?  The slots become even more competitive and the already not used augments will never see use.  That's not going to work.  Either DE rebalance all the augments to make them competitive (its impossible to achieve for the record), or they add slots for the future when more augs are added.  Separate Aug from pure stat increase mods.  We should be thinking which augments to install for this power, not whether Fatal Teleport is better than Primed Flow or Rush or Steel Fiber.

I just don't see the point of your suggestion in this problem.  It takes so much time and for what?  If you just give a power a new function say

Teleport now heal allies and remove status aliment on them when landing near them.

This already done enough to change the function of the power and in turn the space needed for expansive playstyles, adding negatives aren't even needed.  So why waste time, which you yourself didn't deny takes a lot, to add them?

So that's my argument.  We have enough reasons to add augment slots, redesigning powers and augments aren't necessary at all.  Whether DE sees the problem of not adding slots or they agree with me is a different story.  But making augment side grades is just a really inefficient solution.      

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Casval_Rouge

[Mr.Lube]

2 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

I've originally written up a large wall of text in response to each of your quotes, but I'm just going to keep it simple.

We need augment slots for the sake of giving augments a chance of being used.  DE don't because power creep and doesn't add choices.  Your suggestion tries to justify the introduction of augment slots.  My opinion is that we already have sufficient justifications to add augment slots and DE refuse to see the long term consequences of not adding augment slots.  They see the state of the game now and think augments will be auto install.  Which is true because we don't have any choices right now.  What happens when they start adding more augments for powers that already has one?  The slots become even more competitive and the already not used augments will never see use.  That's not going to work.  Either DE rebalance all the augments to make them competitive (its impossible to achieve for the record), or they add slots for the future when more augs are added.  Separate Aug from pure stat increase mods.  We should be thinking which augments to install for this power, not whether Fatal Teleport is better than Primed Flow or Rush or Steel Fiber.

I just don't see the point of your suggestion in this problem.  It takes so much time and for what?  If you just give a power a new function say

Teleport now heal allies and remove status aliment on them when landing near them.

This already done enough to change the function of the power and in turn the space needed for expansive playstyles, adding negatives aren't even needed.  So why waste time, which you yourself didn't deny takes a lot, to add them?

So that's my argument.  We have enough reasons to add augment slots, redesigning powers and augments aren't necessary at all.  Whether DE sees the problem of not adding slots or they agree with me is a different story.  But making augment side grades is just a really inefficient solution.      

 

I feel like DE sees how powerful we are now and realize that it is too much. Simply adding the augments we have right now on top of our full core builds would do nothing but add to the problem. It's obvious DE wants us to make choices when it comes to augments, but they don't want power-creep. I believe my suggestions would fall in line with these views, without compromising our core builds.

We are too used to being able to simply slap EVERYTHING on our Warframe's and equipment. I think it's time players started making actual choices. More customization, less optimization.

[Necrius]

It's not bad, but what I think - augments should not improve abilities, but change how they work to add diversity. Like, Frost's Ice Wave doesn't create freezing trace, but turns into tangible moving barrier that stops projectiles and enemies while knocking them back and doing cold damage.