Poll: How Do You Feel About Nullifiers?

[Thrymm]

Good set of questions, I thought they where remarkably complete in that it didn't just ask for "remove" or "don't".

I do hope that those wasting page after page bickering(in a thread titled "stop bickering", ironically) about whether or not there is enough information to determine whether people like nullifiers or not stop by here and at least look at the results of the poll. 

Just to give some  context to those unwilling to click the outside link, at current(the time of my participation, a full blown 8% actually think they are fine as is.  That's 80 out of 1047 participants.  The current leader is "I do not like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but would if they changed them" with 279 votes.

Also of interest is that the second most popular response is "I like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but they still need changes" at 252 votes.

The other two are remove or IDGAF, essentially, both with reasonable showings of their own and taking up a combined 466 votes.

Unless ratios outright change, out of a sample size of one thousand, those believing the unit needs work number almost seven to one over those who do not.  Those that would rather have it removed number over double those that think it is fine.

Incidentally, Devstream #79 acknowledges nullifier concerns as common questions and the unit as being unpopular.

So.....can we have that non-bickering discussion yet?

 

EDIT:  Update for those unwilling to click the outside link:  at 1374 people participating, indifferent has now overtaken "like, but need changes" for the second place spot.  The same three occupy the top three, and "Perfect as is" has actually fallen a percentage point.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Thrymm

[(NSW)BlaineKodos]

Would have liked an option more tailored to how I feel, which is "They're fine, but they spawn too often." I guess the third option works, but it's not as specific as I'd like. One Nullifier isn't the problem really, it's four or five of them stacked on top of each other.

[_Vortus_]

The sample size of  player initiated polls are to small to gather any meaningful data.    Only a small portion of players visit the forums enough to see polls.  Nowhere near enough to provide a good idea of the feelings of the player base.   The players that do visit the forum aside from the regulars are often upset about something and come to rant, vent or complain.   So, sorry, but not going to bother voting unless polls for things that might be game changing and used as anecdotal evidence are exposed to the player base via messages in the news feed on Ordis and/or in game messages. 

[FreezerFlare]

As long as there is less than 4 currently spawned on the map at the current time.

No issues.

 

Spamming the nullifiers all over the map is fake difficulty tho

Edited September 6, 2016 by Alenkj

[WERElektro]

I voted " They're perfect. They need no changes. "

They never bothered me... really.

[ZodiacShinryu]

45 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Good set of questions, I thought they where remarkably complete in that it didn't just ask for "remove" or "don't".

I do hope that those wasting page after page bickering(in a thread titled "stop bickering", ironically) about whether or not there is enough information to determine whether people like nullifiers or not stop by here and at least look at the results of the poll. 

Just to give some  context to those unwilling to click the outside link, at current(the time of my participation, a full blown 8% actually think they are fine as is.  That's 80 out of 1047 participants.  The current leader is "I do not like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but would if they changed them" with 279 votes.

Also of interest is that the second most popular response is "I like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but they still need changes" at 252 votes.

The other two are remove or IDGAF, essentially, both with reasonable showings of their own and taking up a combined 466 votes.

Unless ratios outright change, out of a sample size of one thousand, those believing the unit needs work number almost seven to one over those who do not.  Those that would rather have it removed number over double those that think it is fine.

Incidentally, Devstream #79 acknowledges nullifier concerns as common questions and the unit as being unpopular.

So.....can we have that non-bickering discussion yet?

Not to "bicker" but as one of those people in the thread you mentioned. I don't particularly want to speak for them but we weren't saying that we couldn't achieve a fair conclusion from the forums only that you need to be careful with how you use such information and how its obtained (knowing that the forums are a pond in the sea of warframe). Sweeping generalizations are not useful for anyone and you certainly can't develop solutions with them.

This isn't a bad poll (not great though), though ideally (as for any poll) it would be better that people be compiled to respond before actually knowing what the purpose is for. Simply because its natural that people that have issues with Nullies are more likely to view in the first place (not so much that they actively look for it but they might be primed to respond). Though this is just nit-picking.

Now I have stated my opinion in the last thread as well (which is basically surmised as IDGAF). Out of the 5 options its not surprising that "fine as is" is the lowest because that's a crazy answer (though maybe it is out of fear that changes might make the problem worse which I'll respect). Nothing is fine as is, everything needs tweaks. Nekros (any warframe really) needs more tweaks, relics/traces needs tweaks, damage systems and survivability needs tweaks and the list can go on. While also not surprising that "remove" is as high as it is also a crazy answer. This might be a little dramatic, but I feel like people would just prefer that the game plays it self. Not that Nullies ever changed things drastically but they did change something otherwise we wouldn't be in this situation now.

Now we are left with the last 3 options, "I like," "I dislike," but with changes on both, and Indifferent. If indifferent wasn't an option I could find myself picking either of the options based on how I was feeling at the time (maybe a nully killed my kubrow or something). I will differ in that I don't think its surprising or interesting that "I like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but they still need changes" is as high as it is because it is the most reasonable answer. People are seeing that they fulfill some purpose. What is interesting however is that people feel "I do not like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but would if they changed them" because I'd assume they'd go right to remove. It begs to question what changes are they looking for or if they match with the "I likes".

 

[HellDevil]

Part of the game move on.

[Rhekemi]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Thank you.

Thank you, and those in the thread for the idea.

8 hours ago, Krion112 said:

Excellent, a data set with some more meaningful numbers and a more accurate portrayal of the argument as a whole.

I voted that I support Nullifiers, but believe there is room for improvement. I've argued many times that I feel specifically that Aggressive Support options should hard counter Nullifiers, being equipment such as Snipers (barring the Lanka and not including Bows), Thrown/Gun Melee, and the Banshee Warframe, as game-design wise this would make sense, as the Aggressive Support role defeats the role of the Nullifier, which is Manipulative Defense.

Thanks Rhekemi

Again, thanks to/in response to the debate you guys were engaged in, this thread was created.

6 hours ago, kontradictions said:

You need an option for "I don't like them but I don't think they should be changed".

Thanks!

That would have been nice. Apologies.

6 hours ago, BlaineKodos said:

Would have liked an option more tailored to how I feel, which is "They're fine, but they spawn too often." I guess the third option works, but it's not as specific as I'd like. One Nullifier isn't the problem really, it's four or five of them stacked on top of each other.

I don't think I could've added this, as it gets into specific feedback/why we don't like them. I told another member (on Reddit) that I'd have liked to have added his specific feedback option, but I take that back.

What I'd like to do (much later) is create two more polls specifically designed to address:

a) solutions (gathered from the forum, reddit, the game)

b) the specific reasons why we don't like Nullifiers

I could create a specific one about why we like them, but seeing as the majority of players believe they need changes, focusing on either of the above two polls would seem a better use of time. Unsure yet, this current poll might have a ways to go yet.

4 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

This isn't a bad poll (not great though), though ideally (as for any poll) it would be better that people be compiled to respond before actually knowing what the purpose is for.

True. Surveys and polls are better served by this method. But it is also not feasible, and therefore this point of criticism is not relevant: I can't think of any way a player could compile nearly two-thousand reliable members beforehand and poll them afterwards. 

Honest question, how would I have collected this many members, ahead of time, to respond to a survey? The fact that it's about Nullifiers is what's driving the poll's massive traffic.

Quote

Simply because its natural that people that have issues with Nullies are more likely to view in the first place (not so much that they actively look for it but they might be primed to respond). Though this is just nit-picking.

This doesn't actually hold much water. It's a poll with varied options, and members can vote anonymously without repercussion, or having their answers torn apart in debate.

People who feel positively about it have just as much right, and ease, voting as those who feel negatively.

Furthermore, your point would seem to contradict the notion below that "everything needs tweaks". 

If everything needs tweaks, then there's no reason negative voters should be an overwhelming presence because the poll allows for positive voters who also want tweaks.

I admit, it isn't perfect. But it's as diverse a poll on this subject that I've seen.

Quote

Now I have stated my opinion in the last thread as well (which is basically surmised as IDGAF). Out of the 5 options its not surprising that "fine as is" is the lowest because that's a crazy answer (though maybe it is out of fear that changes might make the problem worse which I'll respect). Nothing is fine as is, everything needs tweaks. Nekros (any warframe really) needs more tweaks, relics/traces needs tweaks, damage systems and survivability needs tweaks and the list can go on. While also not surprising that "remove" is as high as it is also a crazy answer. This might be a little dramatic, but I feel like people would just prefer that the game plays it self. Not that Nullies ever changed things drastically but they did change something otherwise we wouldn't be in this situation now.

I added the "crazy" answers (which, by the way, is subjective) because people have actually stated them in all seriousness. Calling them crazy is subjective because they only seem that way because you don't share that view.

The point was to try and give everyone a chance to have their say, even if that would put them into generalized groups. 

Had I not added them, I can assure you some members would have asked why their position was not considered, and they'd be right. (Whether they loved them as is, or wanted them removed.)

Quote

It begs to question what changes are they looking for or if they match with the "I likes".

Indeed. Perhaps a poll for later.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Rhekemi

[Rehtael7]

Rhek, was that "I am death" option specifically written for me?

[Vyra]

with tor or other stuff strawpoll can be abused using multiple votes.. no reliable poll...

[Rhekemi]

6 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Debating would be better for the thread, making it stay bumped for longer, get it seen by more eyes, and collect more data as a result.

It probably would. But if we debate Nullifiers, it would also drown this thread, and we would cease discussing the results, better polling options (for the future), and solutions and questions derived from the poll.

I'm not a mod, so I can't enforce the no debate rule, so debate respectfully, but remember the point of the thread.

If anyone has a twitter account and interacts with PlayWarframe regularly, see if you can send the account this poll (just the poll). Maybe they'll retweet it to more Warframe players who use twitter, but not reddit or the forum.

6 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Good set of questions, I thought they where remarkably complete in that it didn't just ask for "remove" or "don't".

I do hope that those wasting page after page bickering(in a thread titled "stop bickering", ironically) about whether or not there is enough information to determine whether people like nullifiers or not stop by here and at least look at the results of the poll. 

Just to give some  context to those unwilling to click the outside link, at current(the time of my participation, a full blown 8% actually think they are fine as is.  That's 80 out of 1047 participants.  The current leader is "I do not like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but would if they changed them" with 279 votes.

Also of interest is that the second most popular response is "I like Nullifiers/Corrupted Nullifiers, but they still need changes" at 252 votes.

The other two are remove or IDGAF, essentially, both with reasonable showings of their own and taking up a combined 466 votes.

Unless ratios outright change, out of a sample size of one thousand, those believing the unit needs work number almost seven to one over those who do not.  Those that would rather have it removed number over double those that think it is fine.

Incidentally, Devstream #79 acknowledges nullifier concerns as common questions and the unit as being unpopular.

So.....can we have that non-bickering discussion yet?

 

EDIT:  Update for those unwilling to click the outside link:  at 1374 people participating, indifferent has now overtaken "like, but need changes" for the second place spot.  The same three occupy the top three, and "Perfect as is" has actually fallen a percentage point.

Good breakdown.

5 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

The sample size of  player initiated polls are to small to gather any meaningful data.    Only a small portion of players visit the forums enough to see polls.  Nowhere near enough to provide a good idea of the feelings of the player base.   The players that do visit the forum aside from the regulars are often upset about something and come to rant, vent or complain.   So, sorry, but not going to bother voting unless polls for things that might be game changing and used as anecdotal evidence are exposed to the player base via messages in the news feed on Ordis and/or in game messages. 

Yes, it's limited. But for now, it's the best we've got. Sure, we can do better.

I disagree with you, but thanks for your viewpoint.

If you're interested in reaching more people, I'll repeat this:

If anyone has a twitter account and interacts with PlayWarframe regularly, see if you can send the account this poll (just the poll). Maybe they'll retweet it to more Warframe players who use twitter, but not reddit or the forum.

2 minutes ago, Rehtael7 said:

Rhek, was that "I am death" option specifically written for me?

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't my favorite answer, too.

 

4 minutes ago, Vyra said:

with tor or other stuff strawpoll can be abused using multiple votes.. no reliable poll...

If I knew what that was, I'd have a better response. But I don't.

I do think I should've checked the IP option, though.

At any rate, it's a user poll. Not a DE run poll. 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

7 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

a) solutions (gathered from the forum, reddit, the game)

b) the specific reasons why we don't like Nullifiers

Possible options for a future poll.  Though some combination of solutions could be possible I am presenting them as individual options that do not relate to each other..

A: Solutions

Spoiler

 

Nullifiers do not have a not shield and instead have an EMP cannon that fires a cone that propagates like frost's ice wave, and blocks powers for 20 sec if hit.  Nullifier itself is power immune.

Scale damage so all weapons damage the shield equally.

Allow certain weapon classes to penetrate the shield.

Allow punch through to penetrate the shield.

Make the shield only block abilities and not weapons.

Nullifier bubbles simply disable powers in the bubbles rather than destroying to removing them.  For instance, vex armor would have no effect inside the bubble, but one the nully was dead you would still have the buff.

Nullifier bubbles pulse to cleanse powers giving players a chance to enter the disabling field and kill the nully without getting nullified.

Reduce the number of nullifiers.

Buff nullifiers into a miniboss that does not spawn often

Nullifier bubbles damage things like specters/snowglobe over time rather than outright destroying them.

Nullifier bubbles zero the power strength of abilities and half duration.

Make the nullifier backpack destroy-able.

Make the nullifier bubble not regenerate.

Make the nullifier bubble a piece of equipment that the corpus setup like the grineer mobile cover.

Split nullifiers into two.  One to block guns, one to block abilities, with differently colored shields

Make the shield directional rather than a bubble

Make the shield stop clipping through walls.

Give the shield sections that reward focused accurate fire.

Have the shield store the extra damage that is not used to shrink the bubble and have the nullifier explode in an AOE based on that damage when killed.

Comprehensive balance pass rendering nullifiers a moot point.

*Most of these solutions came from other people.  I do not take credit for them.*

 

B: Why players want change  **These are just things I have read and am listing here.  I am not arguing for or against any of these points here.**

Spoiler

 

Eyesore

Unfair treatment of low fire rate weapons.

Unfair treatment of frames that rely on buffs.

Unfair treatment of niche builds like sonar banshee and high duration landslide atlas.

Removal of powers from a game about powers.

Too many

Stacking bubbles can create a situation where It is impossible to drop all the bubbles at once.

Bubbles stacked with other units like bombards can create an unfair situation.

Do little to stop p4tw

Promotes using the same strategy to kill everything the same way in every mission.  Ignis Mirage for example.

Too much of a catch-all solution.

 

That should be a good starting point for your next polls lol.  Good luck sorting that into 5 general categories.  Does strawpoll have a check box option?

[NativeKiller]

They can go sukk a dikk for all I care.

 

They are NOT HARD to deal with, but they are still FREAKING ANNOYING.

 

Weapons with low RoF? Fukked.

 

Range build-Frost and Magnetize Mag? Fukked.

 

Seriously, fukk the Nullifiers.

 

All that they manage to do is nullify the fun out of the game.

Edited September 7, 2016 by NativeKiller

[Kaiser_Suoh]

where are the Nullifiers defenders now?

[Kaiser_Suoh]

3 hours ago, HellDevil said:

Part of the game move on.

Like a cancer on a body.

[Beggining]

12 minutes ago, Kaiser_Suoh said:

Like a cancer on a body.

We should get a doctor (DE) to check up on it (rework/remove)

Sorry, just can't resist finishing the metaphor XP

Edited September 7, 2016 by Beggining
Woot da woop

[_JustSomeone_]

Nullies are fine ... thats all i have to say :)

 

BTW..... this kins of thread again?

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by x_xUnknownx_x

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

My only problem with them is they make certain weapons pretty worthless, weapons that are already in a bad place as it is so why continue to make them even less popular because of that enemy type? It's something they could easily fix by making them bypass their shields or give those weapons and edge to actually make people favor them when going against nullifiers. 

[ZodiacShinryu]

3 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

<snip>

True. Surveys and polls are better served by this method. But it is also not feasible, and therefore this point of criticism is not relevant: I can't think of any way a player could compile nearly two-thousand reliable members beforehand and poll them afterwards. 

Honest question, how would I have collected this many members, ahead of time, to respond to a survey? The fact that it's about Nullifiers is what's driving the poll's massive traffic.

This doesn't actually hold much water. It's a poll with varied options, and members can vote anonymously without repercussion, or having their answers torn apart in debate.

People who feel positively about it have just as much right, and ease, voting as those who feel negatively.

Furthermore, your point would seem to contradict the notion below that "everything needs tweaks". 

If everything needs tweaks, then there's no reason negative voters should be an overwhelming presence because the poll allows for positive voters who also want tweaks.

I admit, it isn't perfect. But it's as diverse a poll on this subject that I've seen.

I added the "crazy" answers (which, by the way, is subjective) because people have actually stated them in all seriousness. Calling them crazy is subjective because they only seem that way because you don't share that view.

The point was to try and give everyone a chance to have their say, even if that would put them into generalized groups. 

Had I not added them, I can assure you some members would have asked why their position was not considered, and they'd be right. (Whether they loved them as is, or wanted them removed.)

Indeed. Perhaps a poll for later.

My apologies, I didn't mean to sound like it was a criticism against you or the poll. There is nothing wrong with convenience sampling for things like this but I would also like people to keep in mind certain circumstances of how things are gathered, a perspective.

Now I only spoke about this perspective because its worth noting. I'm not saying that people that are for Nullies are not active in Nully topics, I am saying people have subconscious tendencies. If you don't have an investment with something, then you are more likely to pass it over for something that sounds more interesting. Like there isn't a reason to look at the latest thread on a possible Limbo rework if you don't care about Limbo. But it is true there are a number of factors that will determine the traffic which is why I said I am just nit-picking.

I'm not sure why that seems to contradict that I think everything needs tweaks. For me this is just a basal opinion on everything but it doesn't compel me to partake in everything. I could only wish everyone thought that everything needs tweaks. The point is that the hook looks meatier if you have some investment in the topic. That investment comes innately in negative opinions because you have that change in mind on onset. Positive opinions this might come secondary. Let me tell you that I wasn't drawn into that last thread because of Nullies by itself.

"Crazy" is indeed subjective but I am also not particularly trying to discredit them (I mean I myself have a number of crazy ideas, like removing all guns in favor of a more power intensive game). This wasn't about the inclusion of the options in the poll either. Getting as much of the spectrum is important, extreme to extreme. But I would really be contradicting myself if I said they weren't crazy. The extremes on both sides are rigid solutions to a problem and while they would be simple there is no way they could be the best. The point of "everything needs tweaks" is the flexibility to optimize the potential out of everything when ever needed.

[jfhsanseiIII]

I checked need changes, but in the same way all things need changes as content is developed.  I'm fine with them.  I think more could've done to keep them interesting, but that's just me.  

[Thrymm]

10 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

 It begs to question what changes are they looking for or if they match with the "I likes".

 

Actually, I think we're closer to the same page than the very worst of the previous thread suggested, and the above question sums it up nicely.

A decent nullifier discussion CAN happen because, as this poll shows nicely, the vast majority of participants either would like to see changes of some kind or don't care at all.  That's a position that movement can be made from.

 

[Rhekemi]

Hey, thanks for the clarification, and no apology needed in that case. 

I agree wholeheartedly with any extreme not being the answer to a problem, but we acknowledge that people have extreme** views and make an allowance for them.

My biggest takeaway from the poll is this: the majority of the playerbase wants changes, and a compromise, on Nullifiers. 

Even if you voiced your opinion that they are perfect, you know everything gets tweaked.

Even if you voiced your opinion that you hate them and they ought to go, it's highly unlikely DE will simply make the asset disappear.

So we circle back to compromise: keeping what those who feel they're fine love about them, and tweaking what those who hate them can't stand.

**For context: We're talking about a video game, not real life, and I use extreme in the sense that @ZodiacShinryu means it, like ends of a spectrum, or the distance between polar opposites. Not used in the sense of extremism, or extremist views as related to real life. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Rhekemi

[(XBOX)FOCHOCLTstrfish]

I think they fine where there at but that's just me i guess.

[Rhekemi]

For the record, my vote was IDGAF.

The vast majority of times, I truly don't. As a player, mini-goals are nice, and I view Nullifiers and HVTs this way. I've lagged behind my squad because I want to take on the Juggernaut. Dodging an Ancient's drag is such a fluffy feeling. Or a fast rescue mission drags because I must find any remaining wardens. Rathuum is such a pure gamemode it's not even funny. Heisenberg level s***.

Goals, challenges, even small ones, add a reason to play some days for me.

Edit: So, it's also true that I like them. A lot. Or I like killing them a lot.

If I see a Nullifier, I want that target, and I'll find a way to get it.

If I'm running Hikou Prime (often am), it's going down easy and from a distance.

If Jat Kittag (and I often am), I'm going in and beating the profit out of that crewman. 

If I'm running a low rate of fire weapon, I'm going in and sending his soul back to the void.

If he has corrupted bombards, and eximus walking hand-in-hand, while two more bubbles are stacked on top, and they're all singing We Are the Champions, I'm...running for my life. (There are times my gusto for HVTs has gotten me nuked. Plenty of times. But it's fun, so I do it.)

I fall into the general group of complaints at that point, and feel they need some kind of tweak, even if only spawn rate and clustering with other heavies: too many nullifier bubbles, too many other heavy units within the bubble. It's that nightmare (not the individual challenge the unit poses, or its purpose which is great) that I dislike--where no amount of tactics seem to help and I lose all control.

So, mostly spawn rate, and not necessarily the unit itself for me. I like the challenge the unit poses.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Rhekemi

[Kaiser_Suoh]

1 hour ago, x_xUnknownx_x said:

Nullies are fine ... thats all i have to say :)

 

BTW..... this kins of thread again?

 

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I found one defender!!.

Hi :D