Synoid Heliocor why does it break the mold?!

[Fylas]

The suda heliocor is the very syndicate weapon that is physically WEAKER then it's base counter part ;_;   the other syndicates except for the telos boltace which does a 10 meter radial and had its damage concentrated into puncture, had their base damage increased, some of em greatly so, the syndicate weapons all had their attack speed increased compared to the base variants and nearly all of em had their crit chance increased to at 10 % and the crit multiplier raised to the base of 2x for regular critting weapons.

• Synoid Heliocor, compared to Heliocor:
  • Lower base damage (120.0 vs. 140.0).
    • Lower Impact damage (102.0 vs. 119.0).
    • Lower Puncture damage (12.0 vs. 14.0).
    • Lower Slash damage (6.0 vs. 7.0).
  • Lower Critical chance (10.0% vs. 25.0%).
  • Higher Status chance (20.0% vs. 2.5)%.
  • Higher Channeling damage multiplier (1.8x vs. 1.5x).
  • Faster attack speed (1.08 vs. 0.833)
  • Channeled kills create friendly Specter ally.

The problems with the Synoid? its the only weapon out of ALL syndicate weapons which is worse off damage wise in base damage, which is not only weird but it makes little sense for a cephalon syndicate which is based on knowledge and efficiency X_X the higher base channeling damage multiplier doesn't really do much if you consider you can have ONE!! specter ally which dies after 30 seconds or when you spawn a new one, you can't recompose eximus either so no halfway usefull one either. The Ai is utterly broken it runs away half the time if you recompose a enemy from stealth with no others nearby for it to attack. If you try to go with channeling damage you lose the little bonus from the "ally" because your constantly replacing em with a new one that takes a bit to realize what they should be doing. So they end up doing nothing at all.

 

Long story short: it's like they tried to create a summoning weapon and went out of their way to avoid it being exploitable to the point it became a LITERAL NERFBAT! Yes I might be losing my objectivity here because I was waiting for a improved heliocor since the day they were shown with titania in a dev stream (roughly a month ago) and all I got or we rather.. is this status joke that has a good status trigger but crap damage because even its base damage was reduced!! just go with the telos boltace, it has 25% status chance, and aoes everything when you spinattack with better damage potential due to hitting everything in a 10 meter radius.

 

the current incarnation of the -synoid- heliocor is such a bad joke I refuse to believe suda would build such crap.

 

[-BM-Mitz]

The idea was that it'll get a cool useful passive and they didn't want it to make the original variant useless so they decided to reduce the damage to compensate. However by having only one spectre at a time and no eximuses allowed, it failed to live up to the idea of a sidegrade.

Basically DE didn't want another Simulor situation where Samaris' weapon becomes inferior. After all, Suda is the only syndicate to make a variant of another syndicate's weapon so it's expected to be a sidegrade.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Major_Phantom

[Doom_Bunny]

Each new syndicate weapon does not have to be greater than the original and given a nuke. Continually doing so would only create a tier weapon system. The only problem with this heliocor is that it's passive is some what lackluster.

Second of all, most youtubers only focus on the most powerful of weapons. Take Quitteshy for example, she'll make great jokes out of anything that doesn't reach a high standard of damage.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Postal_pat

[Heatnix.]

So the weapon is a downgrade AND people still defend the decision of DE to even create it.

Sounds like a typical day in the forums.

[Urlan]

Perhaps some didn't want the syndicate version to fully overshadow the default Simaris one. Personally, I would have; as I view syndicate weapons as an upgrade path similar but different from primes while Simaris is just letting us have basic stuff he has available. But it is a possibility at least.

[Fylas]

well so far it HAS BEEN a tiered weapon system, the syndicate weapon being better in performance with a added effect compared to the base version (except maybe hek who's regular version's syndicate augment makes it much better) and the prime variant taking the cake! the protest about not wanting to overshadow all base versions or syndicates being better falls a bit short since the VERY LAST PRIME RELEASED was the tigris prime which overshadowed the sancti tigris. If they want to try something "different" to find a viable alternate version weapon that plays different then the original then please release a separate set of weapons that do just that instead of going to the syndicate screen going "aini maini maini mouh! the one that sucks is gonna be you!"  ;_;

[Demogarose]

First off, the DPS of the Synoid is actually HIGHER than the base Heliocor (120x1.08=129.6, 140x0.833=116.62) when not accounting for Crits

The Synoid then trades Crit for Status Chance, and I for one am ok with that. I just mod for Viral and swap Blood Rush out for Weeping Wounds and boom, done.

[Aenris]

They just need to buff the enemy specter idea, that's it. 30 seconds and only one unit it's kinda low. Maybe adding more units, maybe adding more time, stronger status for the specter, etcs. It still has potential to be a non-conventional fun weapon with a few tweaks.

Also, It would be cool if we could exploit the weapon special ability with some particular frame, like mirage for example. Same as the Rakta dark dagger with Nyx & Oberon.

[matrixEXO]

Pretty much what Demogarose said. You're not aiming to hit a target slowly but to hit them hard and fast with this weapon. Besides, if you are looking for OHK potential, you might want to look elsewhere as it's not the main point of the weapon. Also, increased channeling damage means that modding for channeling actually makes it extremely strong against non-energy draining enemies (mostly best against non-Infested).

Edited September 17, 2016 by matrixEXO

[matrixEXO]

11 minutes ago, Arandabido said:

They just need to buff the enemy specter idea, that's it. 30 seconds and only one unit it's kinda low. Maybe adding more units, maybe adding more time, stronger status for the specter, etcs. It still has potential to be a non-conventional fun weapon with a few tweaks.

Also, It would be cool if we could exploit the weapon special ability with some particular frame, like mirage for example. Same as the Rakta dark dagger with Nyx & Oberon.

Would be amazing if we could generate one Specter per enemy type. Maintain the Specter duration and limit them to only one per unit type and it would be really great. (May be broken?)

Otherwise, maybe have it generate up to, say, 3 Specters with better units replacing/killing older Specter units (similar to how Nekros' ult works with selecting what units to spawn but a bit more retroactive).

 

EDIT: Whoops. Accidentally double posted. Can a mod help merge my post for me? Sorry for the inconvenience!

Edited September 17, 2016 by matrixEXO

[Rodag]

58 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

After all, Suda is the only syndicate to make a variant of another syndicate's weapon so it's expected to be a sidegrade.

I understand the thoughts behind this but (unless i'm mixing things up) stuff from simaris can be gained far easier and earlier by players than stuff from the other syndicates so imo he doesn't really qualify as one of the syndicates in regard of supposed weapon strength.

[Fylas]

or fix it's AI, and add  a similar change to the nekros allies, say first enemy is a grunt, 2nd is a heavy, heavy is taken,  but if the new victim is of a weaker unit kind, the previous one is kept and had its life time recharged and its stats improved with the new "data" so in a prolonged fight like defense you could slowly build up the specter to have more health damage, accuracy etc.  like a +0.05 multiplier on its stats per enemy killed and after a 100 killts its about the strength of a nyx augmented enemy.  and make sure it stops running AWAY instead of to you X_X

[-BM-Mitz]

52 minutes ago, Rodag said:

I understand the thoughts behind this but (unless i'm mixing things up) stuff from simaris can be gained far easier and earlier by players than stuff from the other syndicates so imo he doesn't really qualify as one of the syndicates in regard of supposed weapon strength.

Fair point but it's still a syndicate-esque method of acquisition so I doubt they'd use that kind of method for it if all weapons were meant to be overshadowed completely. We had the Simulor previously and, as you saw, they went with a different approach this time. 

[TwevOWNED]

3 hours ago, Demogarose said:

First off, the DPS of the Synoid is actually HIGHER than the base Heliocor (120x1.08=129.6, 140x0.833=116.62) when not accounting for Crits

The Synoid then trades Crit for Status Chance, and I for one am ok with that. I just mod for Viral and swap Blood Rush out for Weeping Wounds and boom, done.

That's like saying that the Dread, and bows in general, are one of the lowest DPS weapon classes in the game when not accounting for crits. You can't just factor out crits in a DPS calculation when weapons rely on them. Hell, just adding a Berserker mod on the base Heliocor is enough to push its dps higher than the Synoid variant. In the current system, crit melee weapons will always be better than status.

[DSpite]

4 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

So the weapon is a downgrade AND people still defend the decision of DE to even create it.

Sounds like a typical day in the forums.

No, YOUR attitude is why we can't have nice things.

"More damage! More Power! More effects!" ... and for what? We end up with Simulor Mirage basically exploiting the AI with obscene amount of damage, and the game is no longer "ninjas running missions", it's "whack-a-mole".

We did NOT need an updated Hammer that had AoE. We did not need a Hammer that was flat out, higher straight damage, we needed exactly what we got, which is a "variant" which you can CHOOSE to use, or NOT use, and since it's mechanics are NOT written in stone, if we show DE that simply having a single "ghost" is not very powerful, they might tweak the mechanics for us, after we test the damn thing.

We can RIGHT NOW basically invalidate ALL the content DE has ever made with a handful of cheap tricks and Frame/Weapon combos, and we do NOT need that trend to continue with a new bunch of OP Syndicate Melee weapons added to that stack.

Don't like it? Don't use it. It did not exist a month ago, and you were playing the game fine. NOTHING has changed other then you being personally offended over your own incorrect expectations.

ALL weapons should have followed this trend. ALL weapons.

If they had, we would not need to face Level 100+ enemies for "challenge" simply because we can one-shot anything else, we could of done that on non-broken level scaling ones.

 

[TwevOWNED]

2 minutes ago, DSpite said:

No, YOUR attitude is why we can't have nice things.

"More damage! More Power! More effects!" ... and for what? We end up with Simulor Mirage basically exploiting the AI with obscene amount of damage, and the game is no longer "ninjas running missions", it's "whack-a-mole".

We did NOT need an updated Hammer that had AoE. We did not need a Hammer that was flat out, higher straight damage, we needed exactly what we got, which is a "variant" which you can CHOOSE to use, or NOT use, and since it's mechanics are NOT written in stone, if we show DE that simply having a single "ghost" is not very powerful, they might tweak the mechanics for us, after we test the damn thing.

We can RIGHT NOW basically invalidate ALL the content DE has ever made with a handful of cheap tricks and Frame/Weapon combos, and we do NOT need that trend to continue with a new bunch of OP Syndicate Melee weapons added to that stack.

Don't like it? Don't use it. It did not exist a month ago, and you were playing the game fine. NOTHING has changed other then you being personally offended over your own incorrect expectations.

ALL weapons should have followed this trend. ALL weapons.

If they had, we would not need to face Level 100+ enemies for "challenge" simply because we can one-shot anything else, we could of done that on non-broken level scaling ones.

 

We don't need weapons that are straight upgrades. DE has made a solid Syndicate sidegrade in the past that everyone seems to forget about: The Vaykor Hek. It took the same base stats as the Hek, added more crit, rate of fire, and magazine size, but it couldn't use the Scattered Justice mod with it, meaning that the base Hek hit for higher numbers, sometimes even with crit taken into account. As a result, while people didn't like the Vaykor Hek because at the time we had serious weapon drought and the Hek was already good so they would have prefered a different weapon, the Vaykor Hek was actually received really well despite not getting a massive and blatant power spike. It is still a serious contender for "Best Shotgun" due to its crit as well. That's how you make a sidegrade, not by nerfing an already bad weapon and then throwing on a useless effect that we know is useless because specters have always been useless.

[DSpite]

42 minutes ago, TwevOWNED said:

That's like saying that the Dread, and bows in general, are one of the lowest DPS weapon classes in the game when not accounting for crits. You can't just factor out crits in a DPS calculation when weapons rely on them. Hell, just adding a Berserker mod on the base Heliocor is enough to push its dps higher than the Synoid variant. In the current system, crit melee weapons will always be better than status.

Better then Status? Speak for yourself. As you have stated "you have to take everything into account", and I have had Blast and Radiation on weapons and Sentinels and everything changes depending on how you modded thing.

Watching an entire group of enemies drop when you proc Blast takes them totally out of the incoming DPS equation.

This general mentality that "it's all about DPS" is what makes DE create things with Invulnerability stages and powers that shut our own down. Those would not be needed if we were unable to mod guns that one shot everything.

[TwevOWNED]

Just now, DSpite said:

Better then Status? Speak for yourself. As you have stated "you have to take everything into account", and I have had Blast and Radiation on weapons and Sentinels and everything changes depending on how you modded thing.

Watching an entire group of enemies drop when you proc Blast takes them totally out of the incoming DPS equation.

This general mentality that "it's all about DPS" is what makes DE create things with Invulnerability stages and powers that shut our own down. Those would not be needed if we were unable to mod guns that one shot everything.

Status melee weapons will always be bad due to the nature of how melee works. Status weapons in general need to have high rates of fire and high status chances in order to consistently proc status, and needs to proc it enough times to actually get the elemental procs off instead of IPS. Most melee weapons  do not have high enough rates of fire to proc status enough, the Synoid Heliocor certainly doesn't, and also can't use Berserker to maybe push itself into the speed where it would be viable. The only status melee that is good is the Ninkondi, as it hits multiple times, can easily be pushed over 100% status chance, and is purely elemental. Maybe the Secura Lecta can get over 100% too with an Acolyte mod, I'll have to test it.

Furthermore, the Synoid Heliocor isn't even a status weapon. It has 20%. It's as much of one as the Galatine is. Maybe if it had 25 or 30% with the range of the Jat Kittag, and had the crit of the normal Heliocor so it could use Berserker we could have a discussion on whether or not it could function as even a decent status weapon, but it just doesn't have the stats to.

[bl4ckhunter]

leaving crit aside the synoid heliocor is a worse jat kittag. in every area besides an absymal 0.08 AS and that laughable channeling damage buff. that's just not fine.

Edited September 17, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[TaylorsContraction]

4 hours ago, DSpite said:

No, YOUR attitude is why we can't have nice things.

"More damage! More Power! More effects!" ... and for what? We end up with Simulor Mirage basically exploiting the AI with obscene amount of damage, and the game is no longer "ninjas running missions", it's "whack-a-mole".

We did NOT need an updated Hammer that had AoE. We did not need a Hammer that was flat out, higher straight damage, we needed exactly what we got, which is a "variant" which you can CHOOSE to use, or NOT use, and since it's mechanics are NOT written in stone, if we show DE that simply having a single "ghost" is not very powerful, they might tweak the mechanics for us, after we test the damn thing.

We can RIGHT NOW basically invalidate ALL the content DE has ever made with a handful of cheap tricks and Frame/Weapon combos, and we do NOT need that trend to continue with a new bunch of OP Syndicate Melee weapons added to that stack.

Don't like it? Don't use it. It did not exist a month ago, and you were playing the game fine. NOTHING has changed other then you being personally offended over your own incorrect expectations.

ALL weapons should have followed this trend. ALL weapons.

If they had, we would not need to face Level 100+ enemies for "challenge" simply because we can one-shot anything else, we could of done that on non-broken level scaling ones.

 

^ I agree with this guy. It's a strong status based weapon. You don't like it, use the crit version. Everyone always hates on status weapons because body count and blood rush have much greater scaling than status weapons in terms of raw damage. They also require less thought to mod since you have 4/5 mandatory mods (ppp / zerk / life strike and the already mentioned). All I want on a crit weapon is slash and viral, once the combo is up and I red crit the slash proc will kill anything.

[TwevOWNED]

1 hour ago, TaylorsContraction said:

^ I agree with this guy. It's a strong status based weapon. You don't like it, use the crit version. Everyone always hates on status weapons because body count and blood rush have much greater scaling than status weapons in terms of raw damage. They also require less thought to mod since you have 4/5 mandatory mods (ppp / zerk / life strike and the already mentioned). All I want on a crit weapon is slash and viral, once the combo is up and I red crit the slash proc will kill anything.

You do know it's not a status weapon right? Its got 20%. That's the same as the Galatine, are you trying to say the Galatine is a status based weapon too? This is putting aside the fact that a crit melee weapon will get more status procs off than a status melee unless the status chance is 100% because of how Berserker works, I'm asking if you are legitimately aware that it is not a status weapon.

[Hayabusa97]

Pretty sure all Suda weapons (except maybe the Simulor) deal less damage in exchange for more speed. Hell, look at the Synoid Gammacor: deals almost half the damage per shot but has triple the fire rate and magazine along with a beefier proc chance and yet I don't think people were *@##$ing about it when it came out (then again, I didn't start playing until like 18.1).

[TwevOWNED]

13 minutes ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Pretty sure all Suda weapons (except maybe the Simulor) deal less damage in exchange for more speed. Hell, look at the Synoid Gammacor: deals almost half the damage per shot but has triple the fire rate and magazine along with a beefier proc chance and yet I don't think people were *@##$ing about it when it came out (then again, I didn't start playing until like 18.1).

It got nerfed. It used to be weak, then got buffed to an obscene power level that it completely dominated the game, then its damage got cut and rate of fire tripled to keep the same damage but substantially increase ammo consumption.

[YagoXiten]

The Synoid Heliocor isn't a bad weapon. It's still very usable at the top tier. And you can still kill absurdly high leveled enemies with status builds and Shattering Impact. (It actually will probably do better than the base Helicor against armored targets.) But it falls short everywhere else.

[Tesseract7777]

This one is more of a status weapon... the regular is more of a crit weapon. 

 

The regular has some of the strongest stats in the game... for a melee. And you wanted the Synoid Heliocor to be even stronger? 

 

Power creep in this game is bad enough as it is. Making it a status sidegrade was the right choice. Now the Simaris version is still worth using (something a lot of people were complaining about). Because, let's face it, while you may feel this way, the huge majority of complaints were "once again DE is releasing a synoid version right after a simaris version that will make the old one literally obsolete". They decided against doing that again... and made a sidegrade. And yes I know with base stats it seems it should do a lot less on paper... but you are comparing a crit weapon and a status weapon. If you count the right procs in strategic situations, especially if the team has x4cp, and you build properly, I think both are going to perform similarly well at sortie and up play... 

Sure could the specter mechanic use a few tweaks to make it better? Absolutely. 

But there was never any good reason to just make it a powercreep of Heliocor, and plenty of good reason to make it a status sidegrade that might even have less overall pure damage (cause it's not a crit spike weapon). It's like people forget how useful status can be in this game... 

 

Edit: To those who say it "isn't a status weapon", you are just being contrary because you want more power creep. most people consider 15-20% crit to be viable crit, 20% status is totally viable as a status weapon stats-wise. 

The only real issue with it not being as good as it could be as a status weapon, as that it isn't elemental like the rest of the Suda weapons. They really should have (and should still) make it magnetic. People don't want to be getting impact procs when they are trying to proc an element. If this thing were purely elemental 20% would be more than enough to make it a status beast if you mod right. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Tesseract7777