Is Rathuum Boring/Annoying to Anyone Else?

[Fukushu]

First thing's first, I think it's just called the Arena now, but I've grown used to calling it Rathuum, and that's what Kela calls it anyway.

Anyway, I enjoyed it during the event that introduced it, but it just feels wrong as a part of the game. Want to get your hands on one of the Rathuum mods? Want to give Saryn a try? Need to get your hands on Saryn's systems to build your Chroma? Well I hope you enjoy farming the same mission over and over again just to get a chance to farm Kela De Thaym over and over again! Seriously, I don't get how a dev team that says they want to "reduce the grind" thought adding something like this was a good idea. I've personally been trying to get my hands on Medi Ray for my Diriga, and after getting nothing but the same few mods over and over again, I'm honestly getting frustrated and burnt out, and while I know there will be the obligatory "take a break and do something else" comment, I'd be okay with that if it were just any other mission or just farming for a mod, but how and why has it come to the point where needing to take a break from a boss because of needing to grind the same mission multiple times just to get a chance to fight her is okay?

Now I'm not asking for Rathuum to be removed, but there are three major parts I feel need to be addressed (maybe four, but the last point is mostly for solo players):

• Rewards - The thing that keeps us playing, I feel the Rathuum rewards are... Well, I'll just say the way we get them isn't very good. The Operation Rathuum page said Kela gave her Executioners a number of new mods to help give them an edge over the Tenno, yet you can only get a majority of them from fighting Kela? I know he was added later, but Dhurnam drops his mod, so why not the others?
  • My solution - Keep Kela's mod drops, but also let the other Executioners have a chance to drop the mod associated with them (with the same drop chance as Dhurnam's  Silent Battery). That way we'll have more incentive to play these missions multiple times other than "Oh, Kela took away more points, guess I need to run Vodyanoi two more times to try again". Yes, certain Rathuum nodes can drop rare stances, but with such poor drop rates, are those rare stances seriously the only incentive/compensation we get for running those missions? Some people may even say having the Executioners drop the mods associated with them would take away the need to fight Kela, but since the Executioners you face is completely random, getting the mod you want would be even more random than fighting Kela, and you may end up with enough points to face her again before you even see the Executioner you're looking for.
• Judgement Points earned - I know DE raised the amount we get, but I feel it's still too low. 10 for Naki? Reasonable. 15 for Yam? Eh, it's alright, but I often feel I should earn more points depending on the Executioners I'm given to fight. 25 for Vodyanoi? No, just no in my opnion. I'd only be somewhat okay with that had it stayed a level 60 mission, but it was bumped up to 85 and didn't have its points increased as well? It's bad enough we have to run this mission twice every time we fight Kela (if you want the fastest way to farm her), but after dying multiple times to a combination of Dok Thul and Gorth one run and then always being killed in one hit by Garesh in another run (both runs as a max armor Chroma built for Elemental Ward and Vex Armor, and discovering he can throw one of his Basolks for a ranged attack wasn't any more fun), 25 points just feels insulting.
  • My solution - Just raise the number of Judgement Points awarded from Vodyanoi to 50. If the mission level was still 60, I may say you could leave it as is, but since Kela takes away 50 points and the difficulty of the mission has been severely increased (see my point about Garesh always killing me in one shot with a Chroma build with over 1,000 health and over 500% armor with abilities), and by the time you've played Vodyanoi enough times to face Kela the first time, you'll have 110 points anyway (as long as you go straight from one arena to the next), so giving 50 Judgement Points for a mission that has been made harder shouldn't be too much to ask for. DE could even add an extra node to Sedna, make it level 60, give it the 25 points Vodyanoi offers, and bump Vodyanoi's points up to 50. (the striked out part is unimportant, I'd forgotten we already had a level 60 arena since all missions seem to have had their levels adjusted.)
• Kela removing 50 points every time you fight her - This is probably what I have the most problem with when it comes to Rathuum. Does Kela cry like a whiny brat on the playground every time we defeat her and act like it wasn't good enough, therefore we need more points? As far as I'm aware, DE doesn't have a valid reason for this, only stating that the Judgement Points tie into her identity. ...Okay, that makes sense for earning the right to fight her, but why do we have to earn that right every time? "A short intermission with a different game mode"? DE says they weren't looking at making it a grind to be able to face her, but that's exactly what they did.
  • My solution - Since DE has failed to give a valid reason as to why we lose points when fighting Kela, either get rid of the point loss or come up with a good reason as to why we lose them, and I don't mean a simple "Oh, Kela isn't pleased with your progress, so you need more", I mean a damn good reason that doesn't leave players feeling like DE still doesn't care about how bad the grind in this game is becoming. Hell, have those 50 points converted into a second Rathuum mod at the end of the mission! At least then it wouldn't feel like those 50 points are disappearing for nothing!

And as a mostly solo player, the last point I have is:

• Needing to take down 25 executioners - Not a problem if you're running with a full squad, but solo? Running around waiting for the same two Executioners to spawn over and over again is, plain and simply, boring. The most fun I've ever had solo in Rathuum was when Yam had given me the "Enemy Reinforcements" modifier since more Executions meant I could finish the mission faster (though I have a strong feeling the same modifier on Vodyanoi would kill me faster than I can swing my Primed Fury Lacera).
  • My solution - Have the amount of Executions needed (as well as the number of times they need to kill you to keep it even) be based on how many players you have. Players will still spend a lot of time running around waiting for more Executioners to spawn, but at least this way a solo run won't be painfully longer than a full squad run. The way I see it:
    • Solo - 10
    • Two Players - 15
    • Three Players - 20
    • Full Squad - 25

TL;DR: DE said they didn't want Kela to feel like a grind just to face her, and these are just a few ideas I could come up with to make it less so. If they still refuses to make Rathuum less of a grind, the least I can ask is for the other Executioners to drop the mods they're associated with and have the 50 points Kela takes away give us a second Rathuum mod at the end of the mission.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fukushu

[Evultis]

10 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

Kela removing 50 points every time you fight her - This is probably what I have the most problem with when it comes to Rathuum. Does Kela cry like a whiny brat on the playground every time we defeat her and act like it wasn't good enough, therefore we need more points?

In all honesty, this is probably what happens, given how ... dramatic Kela likes things to be, in addition to how self-centered she is.

[Orthelius]

Edited September 20, 2016 by Orthelius

[(XBOX)UKILR]

Honestly, it feels like the most annoying thing to have to do to just receive Saryn's chassis or helmet blueprint, because DESPITE BEATING HER LIKE TEN+ TIMES, I STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN SARYN'S SYSTEMS AJHDFJKLFDBASFBFEJ

[Babellon]

Actually I rather enjoy it. I'd love to see it expanded with the endless rathuum reintroduced and expanded to include boss fights in full gladiator arena style combat.

I would like to see the player base enjoy the game and stop tearing it apart claiming its boring and unrewarding or complaining about how much effort they have to apply to the task of playing the game. Although it is a true statement that the actual majority are in fact playing the game in full and I think its important that while we are forum surfing and throwing up our opinions that we remember we aren't just effecting ourselves by convincing DE that they should pull the games teeth every time some individual feels the game is to hard for them to play.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Babellon

[ashrah]

for me its been fun couple times...after that is boring

[Cmdr-A]

When it comes to new players, its a pain in the &#! to even think about even attempting to farm for Saryn now since the changes. You cannot even realistically farm her in a reasonable amount of time and are better off going after saryn prime which is undoubtedly easier most likely. Rathuum is a tedious grindwall to even fight Kela once. And needing a saryn part to build chroma as well? Bad feels I'd have to say. This is one of the biggest complains from friends who are newer to the game and didn't join before the kela changes.

The entire system needs to be more streamlined and made more friendly to lower level players because, lets be honest. Not many people are even playing rathuum, meaning less players will be acquiring regular saryn in the first place any time soon for mastery points she gives before moving onto saryn prime.

[Fukushu]

Just now, Babellon said:

I would like to see the player base enjoy the game and stop tearing it apart claiming its boring and unrewarding or complaining about how much effort they have to apply to the task of playing the game. Although it is a true statement that the actual majority are in fact playing the game in full and I think its important that while we are forum surfing and throwing up our opinions that we aren't just effecting ourselves by convincing DE that they should pull the games teeth every time some individual feels the game is to hard for them to play.

When you're forced to run the same missions multiple times to be able to run another mission once, then have to repeat that cycle multiple times until you finally get the item you're after, that's not "challenging" or "fun", hence my offered solutions to make it less of a grind. DE even admitted they didn't want fighting Kela to feel like a grind, yet that's all they made.

Is Rathuum challenging? Yeah, sometimes even to the point where it feels like we aren't properly rewarded. Do I think that needs to be changed? Only the reward. If I'm going to be fighting tooth and nail against the strongest Grineer they have to throw at me while they can put me down with a flick of their wrist, I don't want to be given something that isn't equal to the effort I put in. This is why I made the suggestion to at least have the Executioners drop their associated mods: You still have to put in the effort, and even though you're still relying on RNG to spawn the right Executioner and more RNG for them to drop their mod, but it'll still feel more rewarding than what we have now when you finally see that one mod you've been hunting for drop.

[Babellon]

Just now, Fukushu said:

Sniped for space

but we already run missions repeatedly for rewards. All the missions. I agree how ever the reward should definitely fit the effort. 

I don't know why DE says that they want to reduce grind in the game they seem to be designing around it,  but I do know that we shouldn't be getting rewards super fast or simply by breezing content. I'm perhaps proactively responding on the premise of what happened with fissures... Every one gets the primes no one has to work.... So while I acknowledge that you arent specifically saying that I am feeling very inclined to insure that we don't tear out another element of the game for the sake of our discomforts.

Some tweaks to make it more interesting and feel more rewarding for the grind involved isn't of itself a bad suggestion at all, but "reducing the grind" comes at a price and that price is usually the longevity of the game over all for the sake of faster easier rewards. 

[Fukushu]

5 minutes ago, Babellon said:

but we already run missions repeatedly for rewards. All the missions. I agree how ever the reward should definitely fit the effort. 

I don't know why DE says that they want to reduce grind in the game they seem to be designing around it,  but I do know that we shouldn't be getting rewards super fast or simply by breezing content. I'm perhaps proactively responding on the premise of what happened with fissures... Every one gets the primes no one has to work.... So while I acknowledge that you arent specifically saying that I am feeling very inclined to insure that we don't tear out another element of the game for the sake of our discomforts.

Some tweaks to make it more interesting and feel more rewarding for the grind involved isn't of itself a bad suggestion at all, but "reducing the grind" comes at a price and that price is usually the longevity of the game over all for the sake of faster easier rewards. 

I respect your opinion, but Rathuum isn't the same as the typical "repeat X mission Y times till you get Z reward". If we received 100 Judgement Points and were then able to fight Kela as many times as we wanted while still being able to run the other Rathuum missions for the stances they can drop, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but that's not how it is. Rathuum's "equation" is more like "Run mission A three times, Mission B twice, then Mission C twice to gain access to Mission D. Subtract 50 points upon completing Mission D and run mission A, B, or C Y times to regain access to Mission D. Repeat until Reward Z is finally found". Now if Rathuum worked that way with the addition of "Missions A, B, and C can be ran to receive reward from Executioner X₂", I'd be fine with it.

[Xebov]

22 minutes ago, Babellon said:

but we already run missions repeatedly for rewards. All the missions. I agree how ever the reward should definitely fit the effort.

There is a point you missing. Rathuum is not part of the normal game. Its a special game mode that was desigend to bring Conclave to the players. Rathuum is nothing else than a PvE Conclave version and like Conclave its completely different from every other aspect of of the game. The mission players want to do several times is Kela as she gives the desired reward, which invalidates your argument. The mission they have to do to get the ticket is Rathuum, which differs from the core PvE experience and was so annoying that players used Hysteria Valkyrs to do the endless runs when it was introduced.

 

Overall the best solution would be to make Rathuum optional and completely remove it from Kela. The mode itself might be loved by some players, but the biggest part of the player base might like it as much as Conclave.

[Babellon]

10 minutes ago, Xebov said:

There is a point you missing. Rathuum is not part of the normal game. Its a special game mode that was desigend to bring Conclave to the players. Rathuum is nothing else than a PvE Conclave version and like Conclave its completely different from every other aspect of of the game. The mission players want to do several times is Kela as she gives the desired reward, which invalidates your argument. The mission they have to do to get the ticket is Rathuum, which differs from the core PvE experience and was so annoying that players used Hysteria Valkyrs to do the endless runs when it was introduced.

 

Overall the best solution would be to make Rathuum optional and completely remove it from Kela. The mode itself might be loved by some players, but the biggest part of the player base might like it as much as Conclave.

I wouldn't be opposed to that... But at the same time there has to be a certain amount of time sink in the game especially around the bosses and farming the frames..... More so around primes but that's a side issue I'm still tweaking about..... 

Rathuum  of itself as a separate mode and especially with boss level fights and endless combat as another option would be highly entertaining. Actually I wouldn't mind seeing all of the bosses accessed via rathuum style arena combat separate from the usual ways if accessing them and give Kayla an alternate method of engagement so the syran can be accessed still.  Giving different rewards to the rathuum mode boss fights. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Babellon

[Xebov]

1 hour ago, Babellon said:

I wouldn't be opposed to that... But at the same time there has to be a certain amount of time sink in the game especially around the bosses and farming the frames..... More so around primes but that's a side issue I'm still tweaking about.....

I dont think there should be time sinks around frames. Unlike weapons or mods Frames are the core to defining the gameplay for individual players. Having to much time sinks might be to frustrating for newer players looking for a Frame that fits their needs.

1 hour ago, Babellon said:

Rathuum  of itself as a separate mode and especially with boss level fights and endless combat as another option would be highly entertaining. Actually I wouldn't mind seeing all of the bosses accessed via rathuum style arena combat separate from the usual ways if accessing them and give Kayla an alternate method of engagement so the syran can be accessed still.  Giving different rewards to the rathuum mode boss fights. 

You could give specific mods to them, like Kela currently has. You could also create new ones, or add a chance to get some of the rarer ones to add a option for farming them.

[Cmdr-A]

1 hour ago, Xebov said:

I dont think there should be time sinks around frames. Unlike weapons or mods Frames are the core to defining the gameplay for individual players. Having to much time sinks might be to frustrating for newer players looking for a Frame that fits their needs.

You could give specific mods to them, like Kela currently has. You could also create new ones, or add a chance to get some of the rarer ones to add a option for farming them.

Considering how it is currently, you're pretty much spot on. Since its easier to acquire Saryn prime than it is to acquire regular Saryn. It could take what, half an hour to a few hours depending on what you choose to do?

You can trade for her parts with parts you already have, you can buy relics off of syndicates and probably get enough relics to then relic share, you can buy saryn prime far cheaper off of trade than regular saryn in market of 225 plat. IIRC her prime sells around...80 to 100 plat for a full set? Long story short, regular Saryn takes a lot longer, and a lot harder to obtain than Saryn Prime, unless you want to pay more plat than what you can acquire her prime variant.

So yeah, whats the point of playing Rathuum, to then fight Kela, to repeat, when it takes 5 times longer than it is to acquire the primed variant :D DE kinda made an uhoh on this one honestly. New players will probably never go for regular saryn at this rate, considering how one of my friends is saying their experience so far trying to acquire the normal frame before the primed one..And since you need a saryn part for chroma...well you know how it goes. I've read the part needed is also the one that drops the least for a lot of players as well.

[DSpite]

4 hours ago, Cmdr-A said:

When it comes to new players, its a pain in the &#! to even think about even attempting to farm for Saryn now since the changes. You cannot even realistically farm her in a reasonable amount of time and are better off going after saryn prime which is undoubtedly easier most likely. Rathuum is a tedious grindwall to even fight Kela once. And needing a saryn part to build chroma as well? Bad feels I'd have to say. This is one of the biggest complains from friends who are newer to the game and didn't join before the kela changes.

The entire system needs to be more streamlined and made more friendly to lower level players because, lets be honest. Not many people are even playing rathuum, meaning less players will be acquiring regular saryn in the first place any time soon for mastery points she gives before moving onto saryn prime.

On my secondary account, I wait until things "get complicated", and then try them. I've gone after Saryn in that, and frankly, have given up for the time being.

I only use an Excalibur there for tests, and I'm always either in the arena solo, or with Ash'es :) and fighting Kela solo is kind of soul crushing, to be honest, just to get a shot at Saryn parts, so I'll only be trying rarely, and more at the next iteration, but it does seem that if new-er players wanted to get Saryn, she has a tad more complex number of hoops you need to jump through, while Saryn Prime parts will probably just get cheaper until she's close to be Vaulted.

Just wanted to add that a dedicated team trying to get parts can do much much faster, but as more time goes on and everyone has her, the whole Kala and Rathumm is not "fun enough" to just run for the hek of it, regardless of "loot". If it was more fun, then perhaps it would not seem a chore.

Edited September 20, 2016 by DSpite

[Chipputer]

I feel like Rathuum could be improved, significantly, by letting you get Judgment points for winning, as well as getting 1 to 3 points per executioner killed.

Others might argue that this defeats the purpose of having different Rathuum difficulties, but I would argue that said difficulties are more a novelty than anything else and only mattered during the accompanying event.

[blazinvire]

I'd probably find it more interesting if the Executioners didn't do their darnedest to hide from me.  Running five laps around the map to track the buggers down every time I kill them is not in the least bit fun.

[DrBorris]

My issue is that it is either one shot or be one shot. If the Tenno and Executioners had a TTK around a second we could have some real "difficult" gameplay.

[Necrius]

I hate it. Why DE decided to hide a boss fight behind this stupid and annoying arena mode?

[Racter]

My only real complaint for Rathuum is the blind spam. I don't mind getting CC'd, generally, but the intensity of the white feels far too high, even if I turn my brightness down everywhere I can. If anything that actually makes it worse, it's like sitting in the dark and getting blasted in the face with an LED flash light. I would also like the spawns amped up or the AI made more aggressive, especially solo I often can't find anything to attack for 20-30s at a time lol

I would not be opposed to increasing the points gained from Vodyanoi (Highest level, might be misremembering name), reducing the amount required for Kela or both.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Racter0325

[Madame_Werewolf]

Then why I find it funny?

[Fukushu]

8 hours ago, Racter0325 said:

My only real complaint for Rathuum is the blind spam. I don't mind getting CC'd, generally, but the intensity of the white feels far too high, even if I turn my brightness down everywhere I can. If anything that actually makes it worse, it's like sitting in the dark and getting blasted in the face with an LED flash light. I would also like the spawns amped up or the AI made more aggressive, especially solo I often can't find anything to attack for 20-30s at a time lol

I would not be opposed to increasing the points gained from Vodyanoi (Highest level, might be misremembering name), reducing the amount required for Kela or both.

The blinding flash is just one of the many things DE has put into this game that makes me wonder if they even realize there are players who are sensitive to bright/flashing lights and/or have epilepsy, but that's a discussion for another thread.

In regards to the AI playing hide and seek for most of the mission, coupled with their respawn timers, that's why I suggested having the number of Executioners needed to kill be equal to the number of players in a squad. More players = more Executioners spawning = less time finding, more time killing = faster mission, but we're pretty much screwed over if we go in solo or can't find any groups playing, which I highly suspect is from people getting tired of the grind as opposed to getting everything they need and seeing no point in returning to Rathuum (something I know I'll be doing once I get Medi Ray). As for reducing the amount we need to reach Kela, it should stay at 100, but increasing the amount we get from Vodyanoi or reducing/removing the points Kela takes from us would be very welcomed.

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, Fukushu said:

The blinding flash is just one of the many things DE has put into this game that makes me wonder if they even realize there are players who are sensitive to bright/flashing lights and/or have epilepsy

Many, many other games use this same mechanic for blinding. There aren't many other ways to imitate, "you are hit with a flash grenade." The problem DE faces is not putting a long cooldown on the mechanic.

Beyond that, if you have photosensitive epilepsy and you're playing a video game you are already aware of the risk and it is not DE's fault that you're putting yourself in that situation. I wouldn't be against them toning down some effects, but putting the responsibility on the developer to keep you safe when you have a possibly life threatening condition is shifting the blame, at best.

[Racter]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

Many, many other games use this same mechanic for blinding. There aren't many other ways to imitate, "you are hit with a flash grenade." The problem DE faces is not putting a long cooldown on the mechanic.

Beyond that, if you have photosensitive epilepsy and you're playing a video game you are already aware of the risk and it is not DE's fault that you're putting yourself in that situation. I wouldn't be against them toning down some effects, but putting the responsibility on the developer to keep you safe when you have a possibly life threatening condition is shifting the blame, at best.

I can't agree with this line of thought. It's a PvE mode, they can literally just make us unable to do anything for ~3s and not have the flash at all, or a very minor one. There is zero reason to have this as it is in this game. I could see the general gist of the effect being needed in a pvp game with flash bangs but this is not that, and even if it was this would still need toned down. You can white out a whole screen without making it so bright it actually hurts someone's eyes. Think of how the MR tests (used to? haven't done one in quite a while) fade in from white. Copy that affect, tada. Non-eye bleeding white effect that does the same thing with 100% less discomfort.