The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[OffaLimb]

7 hours ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Are there any other players who don't care about vacuum?

*Silently raises hand*

I've never understood why having to pick stuff up yourself was considered so horrible.  There are far better sentinels out there (I'm looking at you Helios and Dirgia).

[CandyDragon]

There are better ways to go about making your point. Its clear you want someone to listen that can impact this.

Get a well written post together, post it in feedback, don't spam it. 

Generally all you are achieving is screaming into a vacuum to voice your discontent without hope of making any real impact. 

[Inglu]

14 minutes ago, Varacal said:

the nerf is alright, since now your refrigerator now also has vacuum

[Stonehenge]

1 hour ago, Legion216 said:

What people are upset about is that they feel like they've been punished for asking for a universal vacuum.

And it's a waste, and a very misplaced reaction. I mean, an over emotional response. The things is : 1/ People can't have constantly what they want, and even more, they can't have the game constantly buffed in every areas, wich is precisely the idea of a balanced rework most raging people have. 2/ > Balance in a non stop expanding game implies very often to win something and loose something else in return, i think you will agree with that.  People are not punished, no one wish their agony. They just can't see what they win and focus on what they lost, as in every update. I already told what we won, i think the trade is very acceptable, i support it. But, i could agree with the necessity of adding a few more range, 7 or 8 meters would be perfect, i could give you that.

In any case, people dramaticaly need to stop with this "punishment" and "betrayal" feeling when a release is hot. It's completely disconnected with reality and hide very often a simple need to attention, not to mention the absurd desire to see everything in game made easier. 

Edit :

I ended up getting grouped with a bunch of MR18+ players who wiped the map and headed to extraction (I guess they were farming for syndicate rep) and I was stuck running around picking up loot (I was looking for polymer bundles). The mission timed out and autoextracted me and I missed a few drops a couple yards away. I was not happy.

> Please, you know that's a very, situational example. How many players, including me, have already been frustrated by th timeout a few times ? Seriously. It's not valid, i'm sorry, it's a very, very minor case.
 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Stonehenge

[Crawd127]

7 hours ago, (PS4)haffmo said:

Get gud is a bs response. Your superiority complex is showing .

What if I turn that around by saying maybe your inferiority complex is showing? I'm not a fan of the "Git Gud" answer, but you do realize that "manual looting" is normal in most game and it was the norm before you get the Carrier? Sure, it helps to have that Vacuum ability, but it's not mandatory, it's a little feature that just give life quality. It's just shorter, but now applied to all sentinels. Which is a great compromise, in my opinion.

Why a great compromise? Because the Carrier was only used for the Vacuum and its durability, some sentinels are way better for different reasons. I really like the Diriga with all the CC it provides. Helios provides also a lot of great support. So having a smaller Vacuum range to have more flexibility on the Sentinel abilities, great compromise!

[(PSN)carlosfiiUSA]

What if they included a mod (useable on any sentinel) to boost vacuum radius? Seems like a good compromise to me. 

The way it's done now, all sentinels got a slot-free vacuum, as opposed to carrier previously needing a slot for this precept. Adding a mod to boost radius wouldn't subtract from what we already had, while keeping it balanced with other sentinels, since you'd need to use a slot to have "full vacuum" on other sentinels as well.

Edited October 6, 2016 by (PS4)carlosfiiUSA

[----Fenrir----]

1 hour ago, Nariala said:

Gathering loot is not engaging. Nerfing the vacuum range for all sentinels after establishing it for so long on carrier, just seems spiteful. 

You have to stay positive. Just roleplay being a space garbageman looking for things to pick up and think happy thoughts. Here let me help you:

 

See you in-game fellow space garbageman^^

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by ----Fenrir----

[RikerWatts]

To start off this real simple I'm hella new. 93 days I think. Just a little over 3 months. Now you people in this clique might be thinking "what the hell does this newbie have to say to us about vacuum? He doesn't know!" But here I am from one thread to making my own in order to try and silence the whining. Let's start off first with a quick SUPER COOL HYPERLINK TO A THREAD COMMENT! that is also by our wonderful DERebecca.
Take a moment to quickly read this as it'll be pretty important later on here. Now bear with me there will be reading. Lots of reading. So get a drink, maybe some chips, and let's get right into why this update is here for a GOOD reason.

For starters let's look at the hyperlinked comment in this thread previously stated.
 

Quote

1) The Vacuum radius has been increased to 6 meters. I can't emphasize enough the importance of playing this and getting video of scenarios that you feel assist whatever feedback you may have. Play while you say. I'd hate for people to not have their voices heard because they decided to go on a bashing spree before the content was even live.
-DERebecca

Now I wanted to quote this because for one, they increased it due to predetermined backlash upon the update and decided "Instead of a ten meter diameter spherical vacuum we'll just half it by the current Carrier's one." so that is pretty nice in and of itself, this should be pretty important to note because it means they listened. And ho boy do dey listen a lot! Now here's the thing, this emphasizes feedback, so everyone saying "we want our 24 meter sphere diameter back!" is good, but you're still missing the point here, and this next quote is why- I will bold the specific phrase in it to emphasize the point.

 

Quote

We will give you consistent snapshot updates on how this pie changes once we implement 'The Vacuum Within' for Sentinels. How much does our collective behaviour change in this slice of content? We are interested in results for many reasons, namely on how us approaching longstanding requests has the results you want: more choice.

Did you see it? They know we like options, variety, choices. Warframe has several varieties and choices already! You can be several different types of frames, over three million different color combinations with all these pallets, weapons with so many different ways to mod and color them, attachments, play styles, you name it- warframe is really good on versatility. But look at this graph... they showed within just over a month period the usage of their sentinels. Overall carrier family has a 78% usage by the community within that time frame. "Why is this?" DE must have asked, "What makes carrier so popular?" they quipped.
The answer was simple, the mitigation of a menial task set upon players despite being a core aspect of the game. Farming materials and mods, then having to pick them up. Simple aspect, really. Their response? After this overwhelming usage of carrier and several customized sentinels going basically unnoticed (Poor Dijin... if only you didn't die so easily and didn't cost all my mutagen mass to make.) Carrier, while the para skin looks nice, just dominated the sentinel regime. Yet Helios has its uses for people who don't want to stop and scan, shade is great for stealth, and so on- but they were clearly not used as much in the sentinel family. All because of Vacuum.

Now the addition to vacuum to all sentinels is great, wonderful really. The nerf to the vacuum itself? At first it seems uneccesary- but what if I told you that this range was slightly implemented in a previous patch? It's not listed in the notes, but I had played exclusively with carrier (who hasn't though) and noticed some inconsistencies with it's vacuum. It wasn't picking things up as far as it used to, and it wasn't grabbing things through walls and some other solid objects effectively. Some might argue "oh connection" but even in solo-play I experienced this. But once the update came out I stopped for a moment and looked back. It's beginning to make sense now. All of this.



In order to understand let's go back. Back to DRACO! and how it died.Which is good honestly. Even coming from me who used it to level trash stuff. Specters of the Rails came out, and everyone hated it (for some reason) but as someone who got supersped through the entire game by friends who unlocked everything because then we just had to kill bosses to get a weird magnet thing that we put on the ship that allowed us to fly to another planet in our star system. It made no sense to me, but I had my trinity and I had my paris. I was ok with it. I didn't know better. But specters of the rail catered to giving new players an EXPERIENCE! With this they brought FISSURES which they improved upon but if you take a close look, these updates add pacing to the game that helps newer players adjust and adapt.
Alright that's cool. right? Well with Specters came a ton of bugs, as my good friend @ObviousLee told me about the old days and especially this update "It was half assed and rushed, but I understand." hence why Specters of the Rail had so many hotfixes, but hey it worked out in the end. The buggies got swatted and people got the happys. I think. I was still real new to this game, and when draco was gone, I was sad- but I saw these new nodes and warframe felt like a new game again. Pretty great.

Fast forward past THIRTEEN HOTFIXES SotR had and we reach the next update. A codex scanning hammer! Wow that's real neato, it's almost like they want us to know more about the game- wait...
Forward more and we got titania with a new little neat quest associated (And plant scanning... but heliocor doesn't scan plants, silly.) yet I start seeing a little pattern here.
Silver grove update 3, ayatan sculptures. Now this is getting really REALLY close to my thoughts, but I need a little more before I can solidify it. The link between these makes me think DE wants us to be prepared for something in War Within in particular. Warframe's story isn't completely shoved down your throat, you'd have to put effort into finding out what's here and there. I like a game with some depth and that's what they're getting at here.
Yet this all pieces together a little more with The Vacuum Within update enough that I want to elaborate.


In another thread that I do not have on me nor can I find, one of the DE members mentioned that we WANT to customize our favorite frame and especially our operator for the war within update as it will have a LOT to do with them. Since second dream had our warframe and operator so eloquently together in the arms of each other, I fell in love with the concept of my trinity prime being her true link and so forth but it made me realize something. This game has a lot of depth I do NOT know about. These updates in tandem. These hints, trailers, little bits of content.
DE doesn't want to discourage us with a smaller radius of vacuum, that's not their intent.
Guys
Digital Extremes wants us to slow down a little so we can begin to admire their work more,- the tileset update to sedna soon- to be rewarded for observing our surroundings,- the ayatan sculpture update- to move about more so we might get curious about something we otherwise would not have observed before,- the vacuum being closer proximity.
It's all coming together.

DE wants us to experience this update to it's fullest.


We've been booking it through the game bashing and slashing and it has been amazing. But take a moment, pull up a frame like Mag or Excalibur, grab out a regular braton, lex, and build a skana. Put some unranked base damage mods on them and fight jackal without using more than your 1 and 2, no double jumping and no bullet jumping. Take a second to admire what minimalist style went into creating this boss.
It's a big room with edges you can fall off of to inconvenience you, encouraging you to dodge the slams more.
It has four large pillars that you can hide behind to get your bearings and avoid gunfire.
The boss has adds that can drop a decent amount of ammunition.
The boss itself bears no obvious weak points until you deal damage to a certain location, then find out how to exploit it's weaknesses.

This is the kind of advancement a game developer would LOVE for their players to have upon first experiencing a boss of any type. To try and understand it much like any dark souls boss is difficult but it is achievable through observation and careful execution. While warframe itself is lenient on that aspect of punishment, it can and will still punish you for mistakes.
Where am I going with this?
I was rushed through the game, I never noticed this genius beginner-area boss that teaches the player without holding it's hand much like some other games. Your basic understanding after reaching it is "I shoot it it dies right?" but you encounter it at that kind of level and just don't understand it.
I missed all of this. This great boss that would have been kinda tough for me to beat alone because my friends burned me through it.
Think about how this kind of pace would affect you in war within.
Think about how fast you go now, about the warframe burnout you experience when you've done everything you can.


This is what is poor game design, when a game is so simple to push through so fast that you begin to have less game to play in the end.
The starmap update fixed this for newer players and encouraged older players to go back to areas they usually avoided just to get these junctions and experience this new content.
The ayatan sculptures give you a good amount of endo for actively exploring and collecting. I have about 30 sculptures in my ship and my reward is having decorations that look really cool that I got for just playing the game.

To stop myself before I ramble on, this is what I'm trying to say.
Don't hate the vacuum nerf for it's overall area coverage for being dwindled to half it's old Carrier precept, realize that DE is doing this to pace you into something much bigger that you will, as a player, a human with squishy brains capable of a ton memory, only get to experience fresh once.
Just take it easy, even then in the thread I linked the update itself is in a feedback stage. Maybe they might revert it or push it up to a comfortable 10 radius. Who knows, but just realize this is all being done in tandem with preparing us. Ever so eloquently in so obvious it's hidden undertones.

[SilentDeathja]

25 minutes ago, Monsterwithin said:

This should save us.

Surely this is the way forward, the cup is half full!

[Azrael]

I wrote this in another thread, but I wanted to share it here, so I hope you guys don't mind a little self-plagiarism.

In regards to why vacuum had to be nerfed at all:

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

I've yet to see anybody give a convincing reason why this had to happen. People are acting like getting drops that you've already earned is somehow abusive, unless getting them is at least somewhat annoying. RNG has blessed me with a drop, why must we build some inconvenience into getting it? Sure, entire map vacuum would be op, and allow for abuse. But 12m vacuum was not and did not. It simply alleviated an inconvenience caused by the rather odd fact that loot just sprays all over the place when people die.

It's almost as if everybody is holding their loot in their hands all the time, and when they die they do that silly "throw your hands up" thing that you sometimes see in movies, and all their money and resources just go flying. There's no real reason why things should work that way, but they do. And that makes picking it up really inconvenient, so we all want vacuum to make it so this isn't a "trash detail" simulator where we don't even get those nifty sticks with the claw on the end. Why did that need to be nerfed?

 

[----Fenrir----]

1 minute ago, RikerWatts said:

Digital Extremes wants us to slow down a little so we can begin to admire their work more,- the tileset update to sedna soon- to be rewarded for observing our surroundings,- the ayatan sculpture update- to move about more so we might get curious about something we otherwise would not have observed before,- the vacuum being closer proximity.
It's all coming together.

DE wants us to experience this update to it's fullest.

Well, then I really hope they take extra good care with the ground textures because those will be pretty much the only thing people will be looking at while searching the ground for stuff to pick up^^

[SamuraiPizza]

13 minutes ago, Stonehenge said:

Please, you know that's a very, situational example. How many players, including me, have already been frustrated by th timeout a few times ? Seriously. It's not valid, i'm sorry, it's a very, very minor case.
 

A LOT more common than you think. It isn't the MR difference I was emphasizing. There are MANY MANY cases where you'll miss picking up loot because the rest of the team is surging forward. It's not just mission timeouts. What if it's a Sortie where a rare mod drops but you need to be in range of your Blessing Trin to survive, and isolation, even if for a few seconds, means death? Yes my specific case was an isolated one, but the not-being-able-to-pick-up-loot-because-team-blazed-forward is a real thing. 

[Azrael]

I said this in another thread, but there are so many of these! I hope you guys don't mind a little self-plagiarism, this is how I feel on the matter.

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

I've yet to see anybody give a convincing reason why this had to happen. People are acting like getting drops that you've already earned is somehow abusive, unless getting them is at least somewhat annoying. RNG has blessed me with a drop, why must we build some inconvenience into getting it? Sure, entire map vacuum would be op, and allow for abuse. But 12m vacuum was not and did not. It simply alleviated an inconvenience caused by the rather odd fact that loot just sprays all over the place when people die.

It's almost as if everybody is holding their loot in their hands all the time, and when they die they do that silly "throw your hands up" thing that you sometimes see in movies, and all their money and resources just go flying. There's no real reason why things should work that way, but they do. And that makes picking it up really inconvenient, so we all want vacuum to make it so this isn't a "trash detail" simulator where we don't even get those nifty sticks with the claw on the end. Why did that need to be nerfed?

 

[NinjaKitsune56]

I always looked around, even when Carrier was the only loot vacuum. Irritated the living crap out of squads when I was fives miles from evac, running a puzzle room in the Void for that little extra bit of loot.

[pooptaco]

6 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

You have to stay positive. Just roleplay being a space garbageman looking for thinks to pick up and think happy thoughts. Here let me help you:

 

See you in-game fellow space garbageman^^

 

 

 

[Numerikuu]

8 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

All DPS weapons eat a lot of ammo, Fire-rate secondaries eat a lot of ammo, spammable and togglable abilities without zenurik eat a lot of energy, We have mods like energy and health conversions, with each new prime we need tens of thousands of resources. You want people to pick all that stuff manually? You serious? You can't be serious. That's a lot of time out of life. That's a lot of time out of fun. People used carrier not because they're lazy. Carrier effectively CHANGES the pace of the game and increases the fun you have from using the parcour 2.0. Picking up items is not common sense. You can't just say "it's common sense" and dismiss the conversation. No, it's not. Not in a fast-paced game like warframe. 

Bro, I've been playing Warframe for who knows how long now and the only time I ever used Carrier was before they added Parkour 2.0. After though? Basically I'm just gonna repeat what the other guy said:

Git gud.

P.S: What's a Carrier?

Edited October 6, 2016 by Numerikuu

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

While I never used Carrier (the only time I would've wanted one was when I was new), I can't understand DE's strategy.

There are many things in this game that are horrifically broken to the point where people who just started playing assume they're exploits. Things that allow you to wipe tiles clean, repeatedly, for 70+ levels of the game. Things that allow you to not get hit ever. Things that turn all enemies into shooting dummies. All of which being repeatedly spammable.

Yet pickup range would be too much of an issue to go with the obvious buff (make it for all frames)? It just makes no sense to me. I'd love if DE explained why they did this, and why they wouldn't put it on all frames.

Edited October 6, 2016 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[LSG501]

14 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

Now I wanted to quote this because for one, they increased it due to predetermined backlash upon the update and decided "Instead of a ten meter diameter spherical vacuum we'll just half it by the current Carrier's one." so that is pretty nice in and of itself, this should be pretty important to note because it means they listened.@ObviousLee

oh yes they listened..... they gave us a whole extra metre to take the radius to 50% of what it was before... as proven by other posts this does not equal a 50% nerf, it's 75-80% nerf of vacuum area.. thats MASSIVE.  The token 'extra metre' isn't taking notice of the players that's just ignoring us and doing what they think is best for the players when it's clearly not the case, with the amount of resources required for some things in this game we NEED to get every resource we can get our hands on...

Farming for resources should not be the main aspect of this game, the whole idea behind farming for resources in this game is flawed imo, it should be playing the game which is basically a first person shooter with swords and parkour...if we wanted to spend all day farming we can go and play farmville or something.

Oh and you do realise that having the vacuum actually allows us to look around more instead of just looking at the floor for the loot...

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by LSG501

[Old_King_Belgothia]

The Nerf Within. Figuring that you should nerf the range on one of the most used sentinel mods ever that is used as patchwork for a gameplay element that is standard in almost every other action game. How... just how do you think these are good ideas? But I guess you're expecting feedback so here.

Increase the range to the original or make mods for that. Why is this even a sentinel thing? It should just be part of the game. This obsession to make everything a part of the mod system is killing the game for me. On knockdown other action games reward a proper timed button press as a way to get up faster. In WF it's just another no-brainer mod. Put it on and never think about skill or paying attention again.

There's literally a mod to change the FOV for shotgun aim-down-sights. What next? A mod to show crosshairs? Not everything has to be part of the grind economy.

[Hypernaut1]

24 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

So you would rather go pick up that alloy plate bundle 20 meters away than kill another 10 enemies 

stop lying 

Or maybe getting every alloy plate that drops doesn't matter? Seriously, people are obsessed over an ability that gives you 30% more resources of which we already have tons of. 

I think people just can't get past the "ooohhh more shiny loot" stage to realise that they don't really NEED all the loot that drops in a mission.

You don't need it. And in a few weeks most of you will realise what many non-carriers users have long come to realise... Loot pick up during a mission isn't difficult or all that important.

[Spot.]

2 hours ago, VocalMagic said:

In order to get to the loot, people are sprinting, sliding, or bullet jumping.
These actions have momentum.
Transitioning from this action to another action is not instant.
Instant pickups will not solve the problem, it hides the symptoms.

Still don't understand your point (though that may be my own fault, due to sleep prevention), but whatever.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Spot.

[Kronxito]

3 hours ago, (XB1)BULLS 0N PAR4DE said:

And the king of all secondaries shall now reign again.

I prefer marelok :-P

[Dizzle22]

9 hours ago, OtakuPizza said:

whats hilarious is despite being a ninja that can acrobat all over the map u guys want something like a vacuum i am ashamed of all fellow tennos you need to depend on something so simple yet stupid to play to your full potential .

RIP war frame skills.

if i could i would just get rid of vacuum from the game .

 

 

I always laugh at this argument. It doesn't take any skill to pick up all the drops, it's just tedium. 

[Volinus7]

You guys use fork and knife too much let me nerf them and force you to use chopsticks instead lol.

[Nep_Blanc]

32 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

And even greater reduce in terms of space covered by the circle.

yes total space it takes to cover a floor is greatly reduced.

total space covered:

Pre: 437.44 M²

Post: 98.52 M²

Devide pre trough post and you see a 4.44 times reduced covered surface area.

1 hour ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

That idea sounds amazing! Having a 21m vacuum range (I'm MR21) would be really sweet!

I like it too and does not make the game anymore broken as is it only rewards more to farm more XD

Chao, The Roaring Lion

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by TheRoaringLion