The 're-buff' to Vacuum actually made things worse

[Ironelle]

I like where it is currently at, though I do not think 12 meters was necessary, but that is not the point of this post.  The point is to show a use case where the options were interesting and a choice was made.  TLDR: I think more sentinel changes are coming.

• Yesterday's PC sortie had a shotgun only infested mobile defense.
• I saw an opportunity to use Kohm, a fun [neglected IMO] weapon that chews through ammo.   I generally do not like applying ammo conversion to a weapon because it takes from a slot that can be used for damage, and also do not like using ammo conversion as an aura for similar reasons. 
• Equipped carrier with the ammo conversion precept.  Loaded up with 5 precepts including vacuum.  The last spot was striker.  Could have not had vacuum and would have had to run over ammo, but there was not reason not to use vacuum.
• I entered the mission and never had an ammo issue which I normally would.  success.  Normally I use Adarza or Smeeta now days, but carrier was an awesome choice with vacuum and the new precept.

Fixing sentinels is not a one time deal.  The approach to take which the devs could very well be doing is iterative. 

1. measure
2. uncover the biggest issue
3. make a change that will have the biggest impact
4. repeat 

It is like lowering the water level in a river to expose a rock and then remove it.  Then you lower the level again.  You do it until you have removed as many rocks as you perceive to be needed, but it is an iterative process.   I think in order to fix sentinels they [DE} will be going after survivability next (which I think is necessary to correct the issues)

[Shockwave-]

On 10/6/2016 at 5:59 PM, PrVonTuckIII said:

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So first, I just want to point out that there's zero reason to make thank-you threads for buffing Vacuum. People literally threatened them until they gave in. We should be ashamed, not happy with ourselves and them. They tried to make things better, and because of our childishness, the balance is worse than what it was.

On topic, the whole point of the Vacuum nerf was to ensure that the playerbase actually used something other than Carrier/Prime. With the nerf, there was actually some tiny reason to use something other than that Sentinel.

And then of course, players decided to throw a fit and make death threats to DE, and so they did the logical thing, and changed it so that every Sentinel had the original Precept.

Sounds great except now Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition, if they could be called that anymore.

...

So this is where's it's at? We whine, we rage, we threaten, and now the balance is even worse than when it started? This is what we wanted from the Vacuum changes?

But in the old way it was EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Carrier had 6m vac and the ammo while Helios had 6m vac and it's precepts.

 

Putting it back to 12m vac over 6m vac changed NOTHING about the usefulness of the sentinels with respect to EACH OTHER.

 

But yes, this is EXACTLY what we wanted out of the vac changes. I'm using Helios now for the first time since I was MR 6 or 7to help complete some scanning, and I'm thinking about trying out Djinn again. I even potatoed and formaed Helios to help me out with scanning and knowing that some events like the last one might have some scanning to do in them.

[Educated_Beast]

Completely disagree.  I love this patch, best patch in history of Warframe. 

 

I've been using wyrm prime and prima shade with vacuum.  I find it orders of magnitude more useful than ammo / extra HP.  My sentinels still never die unless I go down, then even carrier does.  

 

I'm all about utility on sentinals, I could care less about damage.  Best sentinel weapon in game is prima pistol.  Highest status and with blast / corrosive / speed / multishot, knocks most everything down in range.  Combines with wyrm knockdown, or brief invisibility, they only die if you suck.  

 

Not to mention helios got huge boost for when new mobs come out.  

 

This is a needed quality of life change.. if you want to run around collecting loot, then by all means do it.  I am one that would have just quit Warframe if they made original proposed changes.  

 

Would have destroyed warframe.  This however is best change they ever made.  

 

Stop crying and shut up.

[erny0507]

For me the ammo case mod is totally useless, i prefer dirigas ones, or use helios.

[Ailissa]

On 10/6/2016 at 10:59 PM, PrVonTuckIII said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So first, I just want to point out that there's zero reason to make thank-you threads for buffing Vacuum. People literally threatened them until they gave in. We should be ashamed, not happy with ourselves and them. They tried to make things better, and because of our childishness, the balance is worse than what it was.

This is what we wanted from the Vacuum changes?

None of us wanted vacuum changes to begin with.

 

That was all on DE.

 

It doesn't matter what changes DE make, i'll still use Carrier. I only use a sentinel to hoover up the loot to remove a bit of tedium from missions that would involve running around to pick it up. If they added vacuum to frames, I wouldn't need to use a sentinel at all. 

 

 

[[DE]Taylor]

Hi guys, just cleaned up some derailment. Carry on. 

[DEADSHOT456]

On 10/7/2016 at 3:29 AM, PrVonTuckIII said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So first, I just want to point out that there's zero reason to make thank-you threads for buffing Vacuum. People literally threatened them until they gave in. We should be ashamed, not happy with ourselves and them. They tried to make things better, and because of our childishness, the balance is worse than what it was.

On topic, the whole point of the Vacuum nerf was to ensure that the playerbase actually used something other than Carrier/Prime. With the nerf, there was actually some tiny reason to use something other than that Sentinel.

And then of course, players decided to throw a fit and make death threats to DE, and so they did the logical thing, and changed it so that every Sentinel had the original Precept.

Sounds great except now Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition, if they could be called that anymore.

...

So this is where's it's at? We whine, we rage, we threaten, and now the balance is even worse than when it started? This is what we wanted from the Vacuum changes?

I read through the first page and I am still trying to understand what problem are you referring to?

If I am right, your complain is that by increasing the range on Vacuum, Carrier is now the king once again due to having Ammo mutation along with Vacuum.

But the thing I CAN NOT understand is that how does that has anything to do with the Vacuum range buff?

• Your main problem, in all the relevant posts in page 1 seems to point towards the fact that Carrier now has both Vacuum and Ammo Mutation.
• But you are trying to justify your point by using death threats(which probably were exaggeration ).
• Even when the range was 6m, Carrier still had both Vacuum and Ammo Mutation. That part did not change. The only thing that was buffed was the range and it was the same for every sentinel.
• So make me understand - Why would people stop using other sentinels just because the Vacuum range was buffed on all sentinels? Because your logic does not make sense whatsoever.

[enJohneering]

I'm a MR 21 2 yr vet and I use Helios now and may try shade out again. Will I still take carrier prime to the toughest missions for that extra bit of survivability? Probably, but I see this more as a problem with sentinels being to squishy that anything to do with vacuum. I wouldn't choose the normal carrier over any of the others, so maybe buffing the stats of wyrm prime substantially and the rest by a little bit is a really good idea. Or, make a new gear item through air support or dojo tech that allows a sentinel revive. 

There are lots of options now that vacuum isn't single-handedly tipped the scales enough that no other change could be considered. This is a good starting point and hopefully similar treatment can be applied to kubrows and kavats soon so I can use my entire arsenal comfortably. 

[(PSN)VariantX7]

On October 8, 2016 at 5:42 AM, RealPandemonium said:

The real issue is that Carrier's unique precept is typically still more useful ( particularly when using high RoF weapons) than its competitors', whose unique precepts tend to have high cooldowns and low-to-mediocre output.  

I agree.  Would be nice if dethcube were actually good at killing things compared to other sentinels for example . 

[Grimlar]

Personally I quite liked the 6m passive Vacuum, I thought it was a good change, and I would have been happier if the new Vacuum mod had been a buff to that passive. (Rather than having to use a slot for the precept. Once you include the 'mandatory' mods, sentinels have fairly limited slots. However, I suspect that the passive vacuum may have tipped the balance too far in favour of sentinels vs kubrow & kavat, but thats another argument.)

Having said that, Ive been using helios for the last few weeks anyway and I will probably stick with it long enough to complete a few more codex scans.

Carrier was popular for more than just Vacuum though, it was the package. A decent precept that allowed the player to concentrate on the combat, better armour to keep the sentinel alive longer and a weapon that did reasonable damage at a range that was useful to the player without setting off everything on the map. (Lets not forget that for a while, shotguns were not a preferred primary weapon choice, so there was less chance of mod conflicts too. A minor issue but one that DE could do with improving.)

Several of the other sentinels need looking at again, better armour would be a start, another look at some of the weapons, maybe even tweak some of the precepts. I agree that there still seems a way tog o to get sentinels sorted out, Vacuum has to be just the start.

[AzureTerra]

So you use carrier now for the mutation, thats good since you can still use anything with the vaccum aswell if you dont need the mutation. I have moved Carrier P to the loadout that uses a Supra and thats about it, Ivara now uses Helios and Prisma shade is on several others. My Main Companion in usage continues to be my Sahasa.

[ograzzt]

No, it's much better now. 6 meters vacuum was a joke. 

[kubbi]

Anyone neutral with the changes? The 6m change I was okay with. The upside of it was that you didn't need to equip a mod. The 6m nerf I could live with.
The latest vacuum update where now you can equip the mod for all sentinels is also cool cause you get 12m for all sentinels. The loss in one mod slot was also something I could live with.

I was happy enough they scrapped the idea of splitting vacuum into 3 different mods.

[Chewarette]

The only thing making Carrier above all the other sentinels is not his ammunition mod. It's his insane defensive stats compared to the others. I'm playing with Helios since the update but I have to take Carrier for high-level content as Helios gets randomly rekt by something too high for him, and that's annoying.

[Scar.Heart]

On 10/6/2016 at 4:59 PM, PrVonTuckIII said:

  Hide contents

So first, I just want to point out that there's zero reason to make thank-you threads for buffing Vacuum. People literally threatened them until they gave in. We should be ashamed, not happy with ourselves and them. They tried to make things better, and because of our childishness, the balance is worse than what it was.

On topic, the whole point of the Vacuum nerf was to ensure that the playerbase actually used something other than Carrier/Prime. With the nerf, there was actually some tiny reason to use something other than that Sentinel.

And then of course, players decided to throw a fit and make death threats to DE, and so they did the logical thing, and changed it so that every Sentinel had the original Precept.

Sounds great except now Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition, if they could be called that anymore.

...

So this is where's it's at? We whine, we rage, we threaten, and now the balance is even worse than when it started? This is what we wanted from the Vacuum changes?

1. Players are using other Sentinels now. The real question is if it'll be enough (hint: Probably not. Carrier's EHP puts its survivability through the roof compared to other Sentinels)

2. Not everybody threw in threats.

3. Carrier's Ammo Mutation mod is good, but only if you use bullet hoses. As a person who hardly uses such weapons, that precept is of no use to me. However, the EHP is something to argue for. Carrier has the highest survivability, so it'd be no surprise to see it as the most used Sentinel again.

4. Worse? Heavens no. It's better. We got back the 12m radial pick-up (albeit at the cost of a mod slot), and it's usable by all Sentinels. That's as good a win as you'll get from DE.

[JackBeloved]

On 10/7/2016 at 6:59 AM, PrVonTuckIII said:

...Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition...

That's a very subjective matter of opinion. I have never felt much need for ammo conversion nor extra capacity (...except maybe with the Supra a long time ago before they buffed its capacity), but I sure love Wyrm and Diriga for their CC. I'll take them over Carrier now any day.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

Gotta be honest here: I can't believe this thread is still going.

[Helch0rn]

7 hours ago, kubbi said:

Anyone neutral with the changes? The 6m change I was okay with. The upside of it was that you didn't need to equip a mod. The 6m nerf I could live with.
The latest vacuum update where now you can equip the mod for all sentinels is also cool cause you get 12m for all sentinels. The loss in one mod slot was also something I could live with.

I was happy enough they scrapped the idea of splitting vacuum into 3 different mods.

He is not on one of the extremists side. Burn the heretic. 

On Topic:

Of all the opinions I have read about the changes, this is one of the more intelligent.

[Guest]

On 6.10.2016 at 11:59 PM, PrVonTuckIII said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So first, I just want to point out that there's zero reason to make thank-you threads for buffing Vacuum. People literally threatened them until they gave in. We should be ashamed, not happy with ourselves and them. They tried to make things better, and because of our childishness, the balance is worse than what it was.

On topic, the whole point of the Vacuum nerf was to ensure that the playerbase actually used something other than Carrier/Prime. With the nerf, there was actually some tiny reason to use something other than that Sentinel.

And then of course, players decided to throw a fit and make death threats to DE, and so they did the logical thing, and changed it so that every Sentinel had the original Precept.

Sounds great except now Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition, if they could be called that anymore.

...

So this is where's it's at? We whine, we rage, we threaten, and now the balance is even worse than when it started? This is what we wanted from the Vacuum changes?

i dont understand this thread

i love the new mod for all my sentinels i own on my 2 accs, i started using them again, remodding them and having fun with them

and i care less about strange things in whatever people ...

im fine with the buff and glad i can use it with all my sents, makes sense

im shure there are a lot of players more which dont take themselves that important and which like to play this game ^^)

Edited October 12, 2016 by Guest

[AzureTerra]

11 hours ago, kubbi said:

Anyone neutral with the changes? The 6m change I was okay with. The upside of it was that you didn't need to equip a mod. The 6m nerf I could live with.
The latest vacuum update where now you can equip the mod for all sentinels is also cool cause you get 12m for all sentinels. The loss in one mod slot was also something I could live with.

I was happy enough they scrapped the idea of splitting vacuum into 3 different mods.

I don't mind it either way but the 3 mod spit idea was just silly