Bladestorm rework feedback

[Buzkyl]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

I don't like how this rework sounds for many reasons.

 

2 - Drastic Drop in overall dps and redundancy due to Fatal Teleport requiring the same amount of work for a guaranteed kill.

Marking requires just mousing over the enemies. To multi-mark them all you do is pass the mouse over them again. If waving the mouse over enemies in a general direction is hard i'm not sure how you can be pleased. The aiming is similar to Mesa's peacemaker. Marking also would allow Ash to target alot more than his current  hard cap of enemies as the marks use energy instead of a number limit. Only multi marking has a hard cap. It is alot more efficent to use mark vs a crowd than fatal teleporting all of them.

 

3 - Old bladestorm as a means of surviving versus being squishy and dead.

Ash has both invisibility to mark safely and as far as I can see on the devstream, is still invincible during bladestorm. There was no mention of Ash's invinvibilty being removed. As to commentary on aiming, see previous point

4 - Rip Arcane Trickery.

Ash at base has 8 seconds of invisbility which is plenty of time to mark a group of enemies. Also unless stated otherwise Ash and his clones can still proc Arcane Trickery.

5 - Meanwhile, Ember still has an active bladestorm that doesn't have to be aimed... Aka double standards.

Ember's world on fire is horrible for killing and at higher levels is only used for CC. Ash's bladestorm will still be more lethal at higher levels after this.If Enemies are dying around ember as she's walking around with WoF either she is under 4CP or are playing lower levels. At this point, spare the complaints of the chunkiness of holding the skill down to mark (which is a valid criticism) alot of the issues comes from the skill now making the user aim.

These are players who want the easiest method possible with minimal input, which s the exact thing DE is trying to push against.

6 - Why even use Bladestorm anymore ?

• Deals finisher damage
• Procs bleed status which synergizes with Ash's Passive
• Can target multiple enemies at once vs 1 single target with fatal teleport

 

The only point i can agree with is that hold 4 down will get annoying, tap for to enter marking, press again to execute will make it a much better to use.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Buzkyl

[EmptyDevil]

It wouldn't be hard for PC at all IMO. I tried holding 4 while doing my usual high-speed mobility antics during sorties to get a feel for it. I have to say it was comfortable with no loss in my performance.

Holding on a controller will probably be the real issue, depending on your keybinding.

[-CCC-Secret]

So as seen in Devstream #81, Ash's Bladestorm is getting reworked.

I'm not really a fan of holding then tagging enemies. So what I was thinking was that maybe it can be turned into a toggle instead. So like WoF, you press the ability once and it's on, press it again and it's off. BUT something that makes it apart from WoF, is that you still target enemies. This time each enemy you target, the clones will attack it. While they're attacking you can do whatever you want. That could be targeting more enemies, shooting other enemies, etc.

I just thought it would be cooler, since while they're targeting other enemies, you can kill the Ancient lying around with your Tigris or something.

IDK, if you guys have better suggestions, feel free to post.

[EmptyDevil]

No, DE tried this and decided against it because it was too OP. It would probably make Ash 1000x annoying as well, because constant clones making enemies invincible with finisher animations. I like the iteration they have now, it keeps the original feel and cool animations of it. Ash still engages the enemy himself, but the clones get the remainders.

[[DE]Saske]

Totally agree with this, the short simulation of Bladestorm they showed on the Stream was a work in progress, they will take in constructive Community feedback and we will see where it is heading.

Moved to Feedback >> Warframes & Abilities

[Troll_Logic]

So we have to mark each enemy first?  That sounds incredibly slow and tedious.  Why not just get rid of the "Ash ghosts" and only have the real Ash do damage?  Or make it LoS?  But why mark them when I can just fire my pimped out 6 forma weapon and kill them even faster?

I'm just happy I maxed all my focus disciplines first.

[(PSN)BrutalReaper32]

As a console player I agree.
The held mechanic would make Ash extremelly difficult to use in every controller setup (even customized ones)
Basically it would prevent the player to move or aim while targeting enemies depending on the controller setup the player has. In my case I use the down D-pad. So it would stop me from moving xD
I don't think it would be as annoying on PC, but still. The toggle would work just better..

[Magnulast]

Making it LoS would just make matters worse.

For allies in radiation proc sortie, and more.

 

I'd rather make it a Melee-targeting system.

So they can't troll every enemy that's 10 light years away, and something that's point blank.

[Troll_Logic]

6 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

Making it LoS would just make matters worse.

For allies in radiation proc sortie, and more.

 

I'd rather make it a Melee-targeting system.

So they can't troll every enemy that's 10 light years away, and something that's point blank.

Then you're talking about range.  Fine.  But targeting each one first is stupid.

[chofranc]

My ideas for the rework:

• Mark enemies by pressing the ultimate button and launch the ultimate by holding it so it will be more comfortable like that.
• Maybe increase the invisibility duration or add invisibility while marking the enemies if you have the smoke screen active.

I think that overall, the rework represent a more risk/benefit effect than before since is no more a press4 only, it will be more friendly to team in radiation procs mission.

[CY13ERPUNK]

On 08/10/2016 at 1:02 PM, Nazrethim said:

I'm honestly dissapointed with BS rework because it doesn't really solve any of the other issues current BS has other than the press42win.

And I'm VERY dissapointed they did nothing for Ash's other abilities that need a serious revision.

While they made it a little more interactive, the "interactive" part was supposed to be on the actual attacking not on the targeting. It also makes Teleport pointless, so where's the synergy? the only I can kind of find is "you need to cast smoke screen first so you don't get killed while you mark targets". Trying to solve the NEW issue with BS by increasing damage is boring as hell too.

I would prefer if DE just throw Ash rework in the workbench for a few months, keep BS the way it is until they have time to come up with something better.

^^^^^^^^^^ cant really argue with this

[IRVoidGuru]

if this power works as i seem to understand, then its controle aspects for ps4 are going to need to be changed

[Thaumatos]

First cast target, second cast attack.  Make [x] seconds of time between the two before reset.  It's that simple.

As for the "nerf" cryers....yeah it's not going to be 'press 4 to win' anymore...where have you been???  Here's a little something for ya: 

God this has been around for almost a year.  Try taking a history lesson.  DE does not want to make a game where zombies, babies, cats, and yes, homer's drinking bird can win.  It's that simple.

[Heaven_Smile]

On 08/10/2016 at 1:02 PM, Nazrethim said:

I'm honestly dissapointed with BS rework because it doesn't really solve any of the other issues current BS has other than the press42win.

And I'm VERY dissapointed they did nothing for Ash's other abilities that need a serious revision.

While they made it a little more interactive, the "interactive" part was supposed to be on the actual attacking not on the targeting. It also makes Teleport pointless, so where's the synergy? the only I can kind of find is "you need to cast smoke screen first so you don't get killed while you mark targets". Trying to solve the NEW issue with BS by increasing damage is boring as hell too.

I would prefer if DE just throw Ash rework in the workbench for a few months, keep BS the way it is until they have time to come up with something better.

This is on point.

 

The issue is that they didn't:

1) Get rid of the cutscenes which is what slows down the ability, which has been the main gripe from everyone including DE themselves.

2) Make it work within a team composition where its got something that helps the team out too.

3)Change his 2 to something other than a worse version of Invisibility.

 

All they seem to have done is make it even SLOWER than before, which is the exact OPPOSITE of what we were asking for. We wanted something as fast as other abilities to use that didn't take us out of active combat. The ability doesn't need to be interactive, the ability just needs to not take away our ability to interact. Nova's Molecular Prime doesn't take away her ability to fight after the cast time, nor does Ember's World on Fire, or Vauban's Vortex. But Blade Storm, which is arguably worse than these abilities does while being slower than them. Yet somehow people think its still "press 4 to win" when in reality, pressing 4 doesn't do anything for you except make you invulnerable, which is due to the fact that you cant control where you are BECAUSE it takes away the player's agency. 

 

As an MR 22 Ash main with over 72 days of mission time and 40% of that being Ash or Ash Prime, I can tell you that I desperately want a rework, but this isn't it. This is far from a positive spin because the ability will now be harder to cast, where before I could even use it midair, now I can't because it requires more than a button press, which is in effect making the ability cast time way too slow. If the ability was totally different, such as just sending out the clones as they tried before, it would be preferable. Sorry, I fail to see how that is overpowered because it:

1) Takes away the "Ash is in God Mode" issue.

2) Allows us to stay in active combat.

3) Works as a form of CC now instead of taking us out of the combat.

4) Won't make a difference in the damage that is dealt other than the fact that we can now fight at the same time, which fixes the "slow Time-To-Kill" issue entirely. 

 

On "Smoke Screen", it desperately needs an overall. Make the augment part of the ability and make the cloud last for a few seconds or something so that he has SOME sort of teamplay. Or just add a new second ability. But a worse version of invisibility is not needed nor desired. I have Arcane Trickery and Naramon Passives which outstrip his smoke screen unless I mod only for duration.

[Revenant0713]

... is that it's held instead of toggled.

I play on PC. What if I want to strafe to the right while marking enemies by holding down 4? That's a very awkward position for my fingers considering my index finger is what I use for both keys.

Option 1: Press "D" with index, "4" with middle finger. "W" with ring finger?

Option 2: Press "D" with middle finger, "4" with index. "W" still with ring finger?

Point is, I don't have a pro gaming mouse in which case I wouldn't have to worry about my hotkeys. But then again, it shouldn't be a requirement for the average player to own a Razer Naga or whatnot. I don't know if you guys tested this on controllers or on PC, but it's gonna be pretty awkward. I'd rather have it toggled. Alternatively, as suggested by other players before, allow Shuriken, Smoke, and Teleport to passively mark targets. Have Teleport mark targets in a 10m radius, maybe. Of course, Bladestorm would increase in cost based on the targets marked.

Edit:

Also, if you want Blade Storm to be "interactive," Ash needs the ability to cancel it in a pinch. Otherwise, guns and swords will always be much more efficient outside of say... sorties and long survival runs. I can't think of any way to cancel an ongoing Blade Storm so... the alternative would be to speed things up. Instead of Ash and two clones landing finishers one target each at a time, it could simply spawn a clone per target and...

Hit all of them at the same time.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Revenant0713

[Photon95]

How I've solved this is to just map the powers to the scroll wheel. Flicking it up or down cycles through quickly while pressing it activates the selected ability. You'll still have access to your movement fingers (wasd) and the entire casting action is all on one hand.

[Revenant0713]

1 minute ago, Photon95 said:

How I've solved this is to just map the powers to the scroll wheel. Flicking it up or down cycles through quickly while pressing it activates the selected ability. You'll still have access to your movement fingers (wasd) and the entire casting action is all on one hand.

Good call... except I play sancti castanas.

[Photon95]

If I may ask, how does that interfere? I haven't personally used castanas/talons before.

Edit: secondary fire, gotcha, my bad.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Photon95

[SquireAngel]

3 minutes ago, Photon95 said:

If I may ask, how does that interfere? I haven't personally used castanas/talons before.

The middle mouse button is default alt fire, which is used to detonate the castanas after they arm :P

[R34LM]

A lot of people that I've seen respond to this change are quick to suggest separate bindings to properly use a held ability, but if something like this dictates a binding change then there is a problem. It really should be toggle, or something that is better for QoL.

[Finances]

Wait so they made it High Noon basically? Oh....

[Revenant0713]

2 hours ago, R34LM said:

A lot of people that I've seen respond to this change are quick to suggest separate bindings to properly use a held ability, but if something like this dictates a binding change then there is a problem. It really should be toggle, or something that is better for QoL.

Exactly. I mean it's far too early for anyone to judge the rework as a whole, and it'll probably go through a lot of balancing before release. Still, for the sake of quality of life, every ability (or kit) has to go smoothly with default settings.

[Zrimers]

(I don't know English very well this was used by the translator.)
In connection with a change in the ability "Storm of blades" I believe that these changes will improve the game for this warframe.

 

1. Shuriken.

Without argument mod, "Shuriken" is rarely used, or not used at all. The reason for this one. Option "Shuriken" can easily replace any other gaming weapon or ability.

 

I propose to add:

1.The first use of the ability makes the second and third use of "Shuriken" two times faster and two times cheaper.

2.Each subsequent shuriken caught the same target deals additional damage.

3.First got into an enemy shuriken briefly paralyzes him.(This will make it easier to choose targets for the ability "Blade storm")

 

2. Smokescreen.

Requires no changes.

 

3. Teleport.

Requires no changes.

 

4. Blade storm.

Because I suggest:

1.When activated, this ability to start the timer, during which it is necessary to choose the target. If the player wants to activate the ability before the expiry of the timer, he can press the "melee Attack". And if a player wants to cancel the ability, he may again press the ability.(Even after the timer has expired)

Edited October 9, 2016 by Zrimers

[_Rue_]

I just checked the Blade Storm (BS) rework from the devstream... and it seemed out of place. This is a fast paced game and Ash is one of those frames that don't doesn't stay put. Why should i have to stay still to aim BS?

Here's the BS i propose:

1. Make it a duration ability that Creates an AOE that moves around you (around 6 m-ish). Using BS starts the timer.
2. During this duration Ash becomes difficult to see, taking on a shadowy or smoky appearance. Ash gains 75% evasion while jumping, bullet jumping, aim gliding, sliding or rolling and cannot be knocked down.
3. Any enemies in range will immediately be hit by an Ash BS clone, but Ash, remains untouched and is able to parkour, move around (even attack) and be ninja to his heart's content :) All you will see are death squads killing off enemies that are in the AOE
4. Once the kill sequence is initiated, it will continue even if Ash moves away
5. If ash keeps the same target/s in the AOE, these enemies will continue to be hit by the BS clones (depending on cast speed or melee speed modifiers like the original BS)
6. Multiple BS clones can attack an enemy
7. New animations that are less like finishers should be used for faster attacks (like blade slash dashes, jumping vertical or horizontal cuts, thrusts etc)
8. Possible damage reduction due to the insane combos that could happen (or not)
9. there is no limit to the number of clones
10. due to the possibility of having a lot of ash clones at any one time, a simpler BS clones might have to be made (maybe even just a shadow or something)

I would also like to propose synergies with his other abilities while BS is in effect:

1. Shuriken: any enemies hit by shuriken are automatically hit by the BS clones
2. Smoke Screen: any enemies staggered by smokescreen are also immediately hit by BS clones
3. Teleport: just helps you move faster with it's mechanic hence tagging more enemies

It may change the image of Ash slightly from a Ninja grunt to more of a leader who has the authority to order hits, but i think the overall preservation of mobility will serve him well. There is also the trade off of invulnerability vs being able to evade.

At easy levels Ash can use BS and run through enemies.

At more difficult levels, Ash will need to parkour from one enemy group to another, based on threat assessment and combo skill synergies to take down heavies before they can harm the team. He will also be able to shoot Nullifier bubbles before closing in for the kill.

What do you guys think?

Edited October 9, 2016 by _Rue_
added BS range

[Cydro_]

More press 4 to win, killing everything in an AoE, without any interaction within the ability itself, retaining all the current problems bladestorm has (save for invulnerability, but still, evasion)? This is possibly worse due to Ash's ability to move around and do things still

Edited October 9, 2016 by Cydro_