Bladestorm rework feedback

[_Rue_]

5 minutes ago, Cydro_ said:

More press 4 to win without any interaction within the ability itself, retaining all the current problems bladestorm has (save for invulnerability, but still, evasion)?

I guess it wold depend on the AOE right? If it's not terribly big it should still be interactive. 6m? or something less.

I'm not sure how you define press 4 to win but, having to move to targets and combo other skills for it to work as you need it doesn't seem to be just press 4... cuz if you did you wouldn't hit anything (unless they come really close...)

And if you didn't read, evasion only works if you're moving around. You're gonna need it if you wanna tag lvl 100 something heavies i bet. I'm not even sure if you'd survive the attempt.

Edited October 9, 2016 by _Rue_

[Dwolfknight]

DE already tried that WoF type and it didn't work

[Yuzai_No]

Pardon me but may I use your thread for a suggestion of mine. Don't want to make a thread with the same purpose

So this is mine. Do you know Ryu Hayabusa's Ultimate technique in Ninja Gaiden games

So it goes like this

Holding the 4th ability button will make Ash go into a battle stance. The longer you hold it, the bigger the AOE will be. (Almost like Valkyr's Hysteria) Any enemy caught in the circle will be targeted by Ash's Blade Storm. However while in charging stance, Ash is completely immobile and defenseless

My 2nd suggestion is like this

When Blade Storm is activated, Ash will disappear and leave an area covered in smoke (unmodded 10 meters is enough maybe). Any enemy who enters the smoke area will be marked and gets stealth attacked. Of course this will be a toggle ability and will continually drain Ash's energy

[Zachles]

23 minutes ago, Sekinin said:

Pardon me but may I use your thread for a suggestion of mine. Don't want to make a thread with the same purpose

So this is mine. Do you know Ryu Hayabusa's Ultimate technique in Ninja Gaiden games

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

So it goes like this

Holding the 4th ability button will make Ash go into a battle stance. The longer you hold it, the bigger the AOE will be. (Almost like Valkyr's Hysteria) Any enemy caught in the circle will be targeted by Ash's Blade Storm. However while in charging stance, Ash is completely immobile and defenseless

My 2nd suggestion is like this

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

When Blade Storm is activated, Ash will disappear and leave an area covered in smoke (unmodded 10 meters is enough maybe). Any enemy who enters the smoke area will be marked and gets stealth attacked. Of course this will be a toggle ability and will continually drain Ash's energy

 

 

The second one sounds badass, and would be good for defending consoles and stasis pods, and also effective for choke points.

 

I'm not going to knock the Blade Storm rework until I try it, but the single target thing seems, in theory at least, like a huge nerf. I like to resort to Blade Storm when I'm taking heavy damage because it gives me a brief period of invulnerability while my shields can regenerate. Like I said, I won't knock it until I see how it works out, but I have a feeling that the projected use of Ash in the future is going to plummet. After all, the point of the game is to kill as fast and as effectively as possible, right? Kinda on the fence. We'll see.

 

[_Rue_]

45 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:

DE already tried that WoF type and it didn't work

unless you know the details of that WoF trial, you can''t say this is the same. If it had the same range as WoF then i agree that that would be... OP. hence the range i proposed. instead of binding the "interactivity" to the skill itself, i bound it to movement since the AOE is small. Using a core mechanic of the game for a skill sounds good to me.

46 minutes ago, Sekinin said:

Pardon me but may I use your thread for a suggestion of mine. Don't want to make a thread with the same purpose

So this is mine. Do you know Ryu Hayabusa's Ultimate technique in Ninja Gaiden games

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

So it goes like this

Holding the 4th ability button will make Ash go into a battle stance. The longer you hold it, the bigger the AOE will be. (Almost like Valkyr's Hysteria) Any enemy caught in the circle will be targeted by Ash's Blade Storm. However while in charging stance, Ash is completely immobile and defenseless

My 2nd suggestion is like this

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

When Blade Storm is activated, Ash will disappear and leave an area covered in smoke (unmodded 10 meters is enough maybe). Any enemy who enters the smoke area will be marked and gets stealth attacked. Of course this will be a toggle ability and will continually drain Ash's energy

 

 

The first one seems similar to the original BS, you're locked in animation and you deal damage.

The second one seems ok and i initially thought of something similar, but you'd be stuck in one area and invincible... if i understood that right.

[aerosoul1337]

"You can attack each target only once."

Pro: This no longer prevents other players from damaging the targets during the blade storm consecutive animations.
Con: The max attack time of a target is reduced from 17 times to 1, greatly reduces the effectiveness on tanky enemies, and it's harder to build melee combo.

-

Also please consider tweak some of Ash's utility skills.

1.Currently, Ash's Shuriken fails to hit target often, even with clean LoS.

2.Fatal teleport bug:
 -If the targeted enemy is moving fast enough (such as a running Charger), the finisher will fail.
 -Some melee classes may fail to trigger Finishers on the target. This is currently present with the Nikana series.
 -Teleporting while sliding will fail to trigger a finisher on the target.

3. Maybe make Smoke Screen can be cast while moving? It's so short anyway.

Then Ash is no longer an always "4" frame.

 

Also I hope they give blade storm new animations.

Currently most animations of Blade Storm loses melee combo on all robotic and machinery type enemies.

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Yuzai_No]

28 minutes ago, _Rue_ said:

The first one seems similar to the original BS, you're locked in animation and you deal damage.

The second one seems ok and i initially thought of something similar, but you'd be stuck in one area and invincible... if i understood that right.

The difference of the first one I suggested is that you have to charge it to extend the range and while charging you are completely immobile and defenseless.

You are invincible as long as you have energy. Its almost like Banshees sound quake

Edited October 9, 2016 by Sekinin

[aerosoul1337]

On 2016/10/8 at 2:50 AM, Shockwave- said:

The Ash Rework on the Devstream today seems like an incredible huge nerf, in fact it seems like it will make ash 100% useless as far as BS is concerned. Given the very easy enemies in the game, how can any player mark anything with bladestorm before it is killed? 

Stopping to mark things mid battle is going to a complete break from how WF and BS work now. Won't you stop, mark 1 mark 2 (1 dies) mark 3 (2 dies) Mark 4 (3 dies) etc? If you have a 4 man team how on earth will you ever use BS on more than 1 guy? Ever?If you try you risk losing the BS target you already marked?

 

Currently, smoke screen + telos boltace outperforms blade storm already.

It can be used by Loki or Excalibur as well.

Even without the stealth multiplier, everyone has free blade storm from telos boltace already if you can mod it properly.

 

If I had clean line of sight for those target to mark... 1 by 1, they should have been killed by my weapons already.

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[aerosoul1337]

After I watch the demo stream again.

New blade storm is way too slow especially if you are not soloing.

Before, things got killed by blade storm so other score less kill.

After, things got killed by team members (Tonkor, Synoid simulor and Telos botalce, you name it), your marked targets are dead before you can perform blade storm.

And note that Scott said it is currently bugged that it marks every target on maximum tag number by default now, still I feel it is slow.

Click this video, it will start at the session of the bug mentioned above (t=37m23s)

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[BlackCoMerc]

On 10/8/2016 at 4:39 AM, Sannidor said:

Press 4 and hold to mark enemies presented in the stream seems like awkward way to use such a power.

99% PC players use keyboard&mouse, even with joypad it is not the best solution.

How about:

Tap 4 to mark enemies, hold 4 to start power.

Marking a single enemy seems pretty harsh, they often gather in clusters (especially Infested) so this should function as a narrow cone and with physical obstacles obstructing marking process, not enemies covering other enemies.

 

I wonder if marks will vanish over time, if power will be affected by range, if we will have to point at an enemy to start bladestorm after marking.

I see potential for an augment mod in markings on their own - like: it takes 10 energy to mark an enemy who gets armor debuff and drops orbs on kill.

 

Overall, good to see continuation of 'no more press 4 to win' policy, not that there's many unbalanced frames left, coughEmbercough.

Yeah Marks will vanish in late game almost as soon as you leave them.

Say Hi, Nullifiers...

[aerosoul1337]

Currently, smoke screen + telos boltace outperforms blade storm already.

Also please consider tweak some of Ash's utility skills.

1.Currently, Ash's Shuriken fails to hit target often, even with clean LoS.

2.Fatal teleport is too buggy:
 -If the targeted enemy is moving fast enough (such as a running Charger), the finisher will fail.
 -Some melee classes may fail to trigger Finishers on the target. This is currently present with the Nikana series.
 -Teleporting while sliding will fail to trigger a finisher on the target.

Anyways, the rework in devstream is very disappointing. If I had clean line of sight for those target to mark... 1 by 1, they should have been killed by my weapons already.

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[BlackCoMerc]

On 08/10/2016 at 1:02 PM, Nazrethim said:

I'm honestly dissapointed with BS rework because it doesn't really solve any of the other issues current BS has other than the press42win.

And I'm VERY dissapointed they did nothing for Ash's other abilities that need a serious revision.

While they made it a little more interactive, the "interactive" part was supposed to be on the actual attacking not on the targeting. It also makes Teleport pointless, so where's the synergy? the only I can kind of find is "you need to cast smoke screen first so you don't get killed while you mark targets". Trying to solve the NEW issue with BS by increasing damage is boring as hell too.

I would prefer if DE just throw Ash rework in the workbench for a few months, keep BS the way it is until they have time to come up with something better.

This.

The new version is too slow, too cumbersome for controller players and Nullifiers will turn Ash into a laughing stock when they walk by your marked targets...

This turns the most Ninja like frame in a game about Ninja's...into useless MR fodder...

[TheDubsteppingNinja]

I feel like this rework doesn't do enough, it just adds an extra step to bladestorm spam. 

 

If Ash was intended to be an assassin frame, then I think that his 4th ability should mark targets, then use his other abilities to affect the marked targets.   

Currently, Ash's 1-3 affect single targets while his 4th affects multiple, which feels really bland and boring. Bladestorm pretty much solves everything in normal gameplay. The proposed rework allows him to choose how many are affected by only bladestorm, which is essentially teleport with augment on multiple targets. Why not choose how many targets could be affected by any of Ash's abilities? 

Ex:

-Mark targets with 4th

-casting teleport on marked targets triggers an assassination on all targets (bladestorm)

-casting smoke screen either staggers, knocks down, or blinds all targets

-casting shuriken throws shurikens at all targets

 

This addresses alot of complaints, giving Ash more flexibility, choice, more synergy between abilities, and makes him an assassin frame useful against both single and multi targets 

[DoomFruit]

This new bladestorm seems like a very effective way of killing synthesis targets.

[aerosoul1337]

18 minutes ago, TheDubsteppingNinja said:

I feel like this rework doesn't do enough, it just adds an extra step to bladestorm spam. 

 

If Ash was intended to be an assassin frame, then I think that his 4th ability should mark targets, then use his other abilities to affect the marked targets.   

 

Ash kills, but he has almost zero CC or support, that's why he is hated.

Simply nerfing blade storm is not a clever move. If he can't CC, support and even not good at killing, he needs a full rework.

[ashrah]

we will see....forum will be hot that is for sure^^ seems very cluncky to use

[BlitzkriegBob]

I can't help being pessimistic about Ash future with this BS rework. Of course, I will wait to test it by myself to get a better idae, but for now, well...

First, it's more or less like the old one, except you will need some time to target ennemies. Which means, on a high power / low duration build (max transient fortitude, for example) you will have to withstand ennemy fire until targeting is complete: at higher levels, this means death.

Second, the "use smoke screen for safe targeting": that means (considering what I said above) you will need to run a duration build to do so; so much for diversity, forget power strength builds, only one build is left viable.

Third: people who are upset by the cut-scene feeling will still hold a grudge against this ultimate.

Few thing about multimarks must be clarified also: how many marks at max? Can teammates attack a target being "multi-stabbed", or will we get the same result as before if, for example, somebody decides to stack 18 marks on the same boss or leech eximus?

 

As an Ash / ASh Prime main, I'm really waiting to get a hand on this rework to make an idea by myself, but as said above, I am pessimistic. Honestly, I think many issues could have been solved simply: first remove the "invincibility" of an ennemy being stabbed, and then reduce the maximum number of attacks on a same target to, say, 3 (one for ASh, one per clone).

About interactivity, jjpdn started a topic where he suggest to turn BS into a kind of QTE move:

Why not? At least, this is original (by which I mean no other frame shares such mechanics in game) and you have somthing to do during animation. Also, we can tweak the thing to a large extend (QTE window shorter and shorter as combo advance, one-key combo or multi-key tekken-style combo, reduced attack cost for a properly timed key pressing...).

 

From what I saw in the devstream, current rework doesn't bring anything new nor solves any issues; it mainly brings new ones. I'll see if it's confirm when it's released.

 

 

 

 

[Nazrethim]

26 minutes ago, BlitzkriegBob said:

First, it's more or less like the old one, except you will need some time to target ennemies. Which means, on a high power / low duration build (max transient fortitude, for example) you will have to withstand ennemy fire until targeting is complete: at higher levels, this means death.

Second, the "use smoke screen for safe targeting": that means (considering what I said above) you will need to run a duration build to do so; so much for diversity, forget power strength builds, only one build is left viable.

That's actually a good change, as the pow str / no duration metabuild was the alpha and omega, so yeah, we got more diversity by making duration a desirable stat instead of a dump stat. You don't really need a duration build actually, Smoke Screen by default gives 8s invisibility, that should be enough to mark targets, so you don't really need a dedicated duration build. So the only thing you need not to use is Fleeting Expertise or Transient Fortitude.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)B_Psycho2]

1 hour ago, TheDubsteppingNinja said:

I feel like this rework doesn't do enough, it just adds an extra step to bladestorm spam. 

 

If Ash was intended to be an assassin frame, then I think that his 4th ability should mark targets, then use his other abilities to affect the marked targets.   

Currently, Ash's 1-3 affect single targets while his 4th affects multiple, which feels really bland and boring. Bladestorm pretty much solves everything in normal gameplay. The proposed rework allows him to choose how many are affected by only bladestorm, which is essentially teleport with augment on multiple targets. Why not choose how many targets could be affected by any of Ash's abilities? 

Ex:

-Mark targets with 4th

-casting teleport on marked targets triggers an assassination on all targets (bladestorm)

-casting smoke screen either staggers, knocks down, or blinds all targets

-casting shuriken throws shurikens at all targets

 

This addresses alot of complaints, giving Ash more flexibility, choice, more synergy between abilities, and makes him an assassin frame useful against both single and multi targets 

This and a duration increase to smoke screen would make me actually get Ash

[achromos]

Honestly from how they explained it, and how they showed it... it seems like a multi target teleport (with the augment ofcource)  it really doesn't feel unique.  Though I understand their predicament.  It does have a few good points though.  Ash doesn't just press 4 on one enemy and get every enemy within a football radius anymore.  He has to mark the enemies AND can mark enemies over and over again to focus kill something secifically which really seems fun.

 

So, It's not that bad all in all.  I honestly don't have any better ideas although I'm sure there are people out in the forums with them.

[TheDubsteppingNinja]

-snip-

Edited October 15, 2016 by TheDubsteppingNinja
accidental double post

[aerosoul1337]

On 2016/10/8 at 3:38 AM, Noamuth said:

The rework hasn't even been published yet, calm down.

Yea, but prepare for the worst.

Look at all the frame rework feedback threads (such as nekros' shadow, 75 pages of feedback and mostly against the health decay design), they still didn't change a thing.

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

I don't see how a marking system is going to go over smoothly with consoles so I don't think it will happen unless it auto tags as you hold down the ability then performs bladestorm on release.  It would make duration a more useful stat for ash to stay hidden while marking with smoke screen.  Looking at what they showed I think trying to perform bladestorm with a marking system on a controller would be too frustrating.

[aerosoul1337]

Many of the players' ideas are far more creative and synergy better with other abilities.

Honestly, the official rework prototype is by far the worst one I could imagine.

I thought the worst case is making it a stance, but I was so wrong.

The official version doesn't solves any problem but creates new ones.

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[VergilDT]

1 hour ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Ash kills, but he has almost zero CC or support, that's why he is hated.

Simply nerfing blade storm is not a clever move. If he can't CC, support and even not good at killing, he needs a full rework.

Exactly. Ash kills, he's one of few frames that are purely offensive and does well at high levels. Having CC or support makes no sense in his design. He doesn't need it, His offensive abilities are his support, The enemy can't hurt your team if they're dead. A good Ash player will use BS to keep swarms off of teammates getting overrun or protect the person rezzing a teammate and not just spam for ever. I run a sword alone Ash and I only use BS when actually needed. It's the player that makes Ash no team friendly, not his kit. With a limit of only 18 targets there are tons of weapons/abilities in game that can kill more and faster than ash ever could. By slowing down his ult they are guaranteeing ash will no longer be played beyond maybe lv30 content.

Hated? so the tons of threads condemning this obviously bogus and unneeded rework are an illusion? Shuriken is probably the only part of his kit that needs to be looked at as after level 40-50 it's no longer useful.