body diversity in lady frames

[senatorspade]

2 hours ago, Azrael said:

You know, I've never really felt that equinox looked like anything, male or female. I never really got a "masculine" vibe off of her. She looks more like a robot than a living thing. Just imo.

I didn't know she was a she until recently- i just accepted that it didn't matter what she was. I like that she was determined as a she however, because it shows that boobs and curves can't define gender. I do feel that warframes can also not have gender- but I didn't want to talk about that very much because I get a lot of awful comments if I mention it anywhere. 

[Achaix]

In any case OP, I support this. Have my +1s, and don't mind the anti-SJWs. They can be even worse than SJWs.

"Why do you want different body builds for fem frames? I don't get it." FashionFrame, for one. I'll finally be able to dress my frame up as someone other than a waif/standard body. #trueendgame

"Zarya is unrealistic!" Bruh. Have you even seen any real life female wrestlers/Olympic athletes? Also, Rhino's bara tiddies are unrealistic.

"It makes sense that male frames are bulky, they're armoured." ... So why not have armoured female frames too?

"Small, lithe bodies are good for parkour, and besides, size doesn't matter because they're stronk!" *point at Rhino* That is not a body designed for graceful movement, yet I can solve Void puzzles in less than a minute with it. Bad argument.

"The femininity is a theme!" What? The only recurring theme with frame design is the technorganic aspect. You got some frames that look completely infested, others that look completely robotic, and others in between.

"Yer a SJW!" Sod off.

[CrazyValkyr]

I also love when people use 'realism' as an argument in a game with a Space Tenno Magic in it!  

^ The poster above said it quite nicely. I honestly don't understand why people who don't like more buff-armored female theme 'frame just... don't leave it alone. There's plenty of one theme, others expressed desire for more variety. Not liking something does not entitle them to dictate what others can like or dislike. There's too much of 'but but but, i don't want to see it, you can't use it!' kind of mentality, the sort of 'I'm on a diet, you can't eat the cake either, it offends me' turning many communities into very toxic and unfriendly environments.

Again - just because something someone dislikes- that does not hurt anything or anyone, it offers more options, becoming more inclusive. And, more variety is exactly what Warframe is about - look at the miriad of abilitis and weapons, which can be used in many ways; if you think out of the box just for a moment.

[Azrael]

22 minutes ago, jodarkrider said:

the sort of 'I'm on a diet, you can't eat the cake either, it offends me' turning many communities into very toxic and unfriendly environments.

The funniest thing about this is it's often the anti-sjw people (the ones complaining about how easily offended people are) who are the most easily offended. Ask for something different to be included and they're like "but mom said the treehouse was just for me!!! It's not fair!"

[Achaix]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

The funniest thing about this is it's often the anti-sjw people (the ones complaining about how easily offended people are) who are the most easily offended. Ask for something different to be included and they're like "but mom said the treehouse was just for me!!! It's not fair!"

Careful, we might go full circle and become rabid anti-anti-SJWs.

[hammerheathen]

19 hours ago, arch111 said:

I kind of agree, but at the same time I don't get it.

When you look at this, what do you notice - without thinking about it.

What was it? Was it breasts? More specifically CHESTS? It was for me. Let me tell you why.

The diversity in male warframes do not stem primarily from bodytypes, but usage of the siluette and torso/chest/waist.

Compare the chest down to the thigh on all males. See how different they are in style and theme.

Now compare the chest down to the thigh on all the females. See how underused this area is and how many points align. Its allmost like that old saying that we have to know that we are lookig at a woman so she must have boobs and hips.

This is the core to me. Imagine if there was a woman in a coat, like Frost, Limbo and Hydroid. What if a woman had a suit of armor like Loki, a robe like Oberon ond a cheatplate like Rhino and Volt.

It sets them apart more.

What I see here is that most of the male frames appear to use identical torsos and legs, while there is a distinct different in waist/torso curve in females that makes them visually distinct. Most of the difference in males is in ornament rather than shape. The distinct male outliers are vauban, rhino, chroma, and Nezha

[hammerheathen]

10 minutes ago, Achaix said:

Careful, we might go full circle and become rabid anti-anti-SJWs.

rabid-ception?

 

[Vali]

I really don't think DE would stem off from their current size of Warframes since they all use the same animation sets, the bigger they are, the more clipping will occur with cosmetics and animations (Damn that Atlas! Why wont my shoulder plates stay!)

[Azrael]

25 minutes ago, Achaix said:

Careful, we might go full circle and become rabid anti-anti-SJWs.

No no, I am rabidly against that idea. No question, I'm definitely anti-anti-anti-SJW. I think.

[RunningTree3]

9 hours ago, Saltify said:

Nezha is a boy that forgot to go through puberty, there is a difference! ;)

Just to be clear the mythological Nezha sacrificed himself while as a young man to protect his village, and was turned into an immortal protector deity, preserving his image forever.

In dramas and operas, he would often be portrayed by an adult female performer.

Edited October 11, 2016 by RunningTree3

[Ibro156]

4 hours ago, Azrael said:

The funniest thing about this is it's often the anti-sjw people (the ones complaining about how easily offended people are) who are the most easily offended. Ask for something different to be included and they're like "but mom said the treehouse was just for me!!! It's not fair!"

I Remeber there was the game recently that was made by an indie dev called Virginia. It's about this Detective looking for someone she knew and that wasn't it. It was because the main protangist was black woman. Apperantly, some people got into a p1ssy fit on steam forums on how it's "SJW propaganda".

Even then, when Mafia 3 and Watch_Dogs 2 were revealed, again, some people got mad about the main characters being black. So far it seems those who against SJW, seem to be the most hostile, IMO.

[SilvaDreams]

1 minute ago, Ibro156 said:

I Remeber there was the game recently that was made by an indie dev called Virginia. It's about this Detective looking for someone she knew and that wasn't it. It was because the main protangist was black woman. Apperantly, some people got into a p1ssy fit on steam forums on how it's "SJW propaganda".

Even then, when Mafia 3 and Watch_Dogs 2 were revealed, again, some people got mad about the main characters being black. So far it seems those who against SJW, seem to be the most hostile, IMO.

Most of those crying out are SJWs though. They are offended by the main character being black and a criminal of some sort.

[SilvaDreams]

Now for something more on topic.

While this is all good and all there is a good reason not to have it.

Lore wise the Orokin were perfectionists, thus all the male frames are perfect examples of men, even the pretty Nezha.

All the female frames are what are considered normal and beautiful.

 

A large bulky woman is not normal, it takes 8+ hours a day in a gym and normally testosterone supplements to get that huge.

And yes full figured women use to be considered attractive but that was because their families had money thus they didn't have to work and had plenty of food.

Edited October 11, 2016 by SilvaDreams

[Beggining]

27 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Now for something more on topic.

While this is all good and all there is a good reason not to have it.

Lore wise the Orokin were perfectionists, thus all the male frames are perfect examples of men, even the pretty Nezha.

All the female frames are what are considered normal and beautiful.

 

A large bulky woman is not normal, it takes 8+ hours a day in a gym and normally testosterone supplements to get that huge.

And yes full figured women use to be considered attractive but that was because their families had money thus they didn't have to work and had plenty of food.

Something I've pointed out as well. The 'large bulky woman' part may work with the theme she comes with, but it still wouldn't fit the Orokin's idea of 'beauty'.

Of course, I'm not against this idea: more variety is always good, but it should be done for the sake of the game and not for the sake of variety itself :)

Edited October 11, 2016 by Beggining

[Ibro156]

3 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Most of those crying out are SJWs though. They are offended by the main character being black and a criminal of some sort.

There always idiots on both sides on opposing sides of issue(s).

2 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Now for something more on topic.

While this is all good and all there is a good reason not to have it.

Lore wise the Orokin were perfectionists, thus all the male frames are perfect examples of men, even the pretty Nezha.

All the female frames are what are considered normal and beautiful.

A large bulky woman is not normal, it takes 8+ hours a day in a gym and normally testosterone supplements to get that huge.

And yes full figured women use to be considered attractive but that was because their families had money thus they didn't have to work and had plenty of food.

True, the idea ain't bad. But if it was more align with theme as a tank, it wouldn't bad one, IMO. We have Rhino and Atlas, and that isn't average male body either.

"Attractive" and "beauty" is a controversial topic on its own. This can heavily differ from person to person in terms of culture.

Am a Somali. My culture term of "beauty" is how well you dress and act (attitude).

In the Roman Empire, man, woman and children had to workout at young age. Especially, pregnant woman, they were told to workout, in doing so they believe their child will be strong as well at birth.

Now if you look it 50s America culture, everyone was obsessed with Marilyn Monroe. As result a lot of women try to copy her look. Now compare that to current America.

That culture isn't as strong as it used to be, but what am saying is that Orokin are well passed us. There culture and term for beauty can be the total opposite from ours. Even then, closes we have to Orokin sense of style is the Operator hairstyles/haircuts and clothing.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Ibro156

[TennoPain]

I HATE people  ''whats body size right'' aka ''normal'' ITS just not true. (almost all kinds of body sizes can be healthy but it depends on 100000 things)

But yeah I agree we need fat slim small huge big skinny buffed all kinds of frames that is good 

 

[OkamiMilo]

After all, ppl the Warframes arent bodies after all, only armor, the operators are the "humanoids" there. i dont find the point of this TH...

[RunningTree3]

1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said:

Now for something more on topic.

While this is all good and all there is a good reason not to have it.

Lore wise the Orokin were perfectionists, thus all the male frames are perfect examples of men, even the pretty Nezha.

All the female frames are what are considered normal and beautiful.

 

A large bulky woman is not normal, it takes 8+ hours a day in a gym and normally testosterone supplements to get that huge.

And yes full figured women use to be considered attractive but that was because their families had money thus they didn't have to work and had plenty of food.

True, but we do not know what perfection meant to the Orokin. Just because right now in human history, the dominant idea of perfect is one thing, does not exclude the possibility of it being different in the far future -- particularly given that these standards have been different in another period of human history.

And just because there is a current dominant cultural standard, does not mean there are not others.

  

And just because these are not currently the dominant standard of beauty, does not exclude the possibility that these could very well be more prevalent cultural views in the future. Because who is to say that the post-Modernity, post-European-colonial, post Cold-War world we live in now is even going exist into the distant, or even near, future. Perhaps the advent of genetic and body modification would completely change the idea of "perfect" and "normal".

Just saying XD

[(NSW)Estalior]

2 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

True, but we do not know what perfection meant to the Orokin. Just because right now in human history, the dominant idea of perfect is one thing, does not exclude the possibility of it being different in the far future -- particularly given that these standards have been different in another period of human history.

And just because there is a current dominant cultural standard, does not mean there are not others.

  

And just because these are not currently the dominant standard of beauty, does not exclude the possibility that these could very well be more prevalent cultural views in the future. Because who is to say that the post-Modernity, post-European-colonial, post Cold-War world we live in now is even going exist into the distant, or even near, future. Perhaps the advent of genetic and body modification would completely change the idea of "perfect" and "normal".

Just saying XD

I agree with you so much, that is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

[schilds]

Well I'm quite sure I don't share the same aesthetic with all the people here who say the warframes embody perfection, are "normal" and "beautiful", haha :-P.

 

My take on them is that there is some beauty, but it's melded with strange and/or grotesque, many with impractical or even non-functional forms.

 

Nor do I think the Orokin were particularly sane. Their behaviour (from the lore) strikes me as a bunch of bored immortals slowly going crazy.

[(NSW)Estalior]

Just now, schilds said:

Well I'm quite sure I don't share the same aesthetic with all the people here who say the warframes embody perfection, are "normal" and "beautiful", haha :-P.

 

My take on them is that there is some beauty, but it's melded with strange and/or grotesque, many with impractical or even non-functional forms.

 

Nor do I think the Orokin were particularly sane. Their behaviour (from the lore) strikes me as a bunch of bored immortals slowly going crazy.

I know right? The lore excuse is just too lazy, if you ask me. The DE could make any type of frame and support it by lore. Female looking ones included.

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said:

Now for something more on topic.

While this is all good and all there is a good reason not to have it.

Lore wise the Orokin were perfectionists, thus all the male frames are perfect examples of men, even the pretty Nezha.

All the female frames are what are considered normal and beautiful.

 

A large bulky woman is not normal, it takes 8+ hours a day in a gym and normally testosterone supplements to get that huge.

And yes full figured women use to be considered attractive but that was because their families had money thus they didn't have to work and had plenty of food.

Ehrm...

I understand where you are comingo from, but that's not how perfectionism works.

The first thing to know about perfectionism is perfection, and the first thing to know about perfection is that it doesnt exist. It's an opinion.

"Beauty" concepts are more cultural than innate, another heritage from former cultures that parented the one in question, and while it may seem that current beauty standards are universal, truth is... They are not.

For example, Mayan used to have obesity as a symbol of beauty. It demonstrated wealth, and power. This is also something somewhat present doing any long period of lack of resources in any part of the world. When there isn't much food, how can a skinny person without fat reserves to be attractive?

Romans and Greeks despised big breasts, seeing them as signs of age. And you know how their status all have small penises? Well, that's because they found small penises attractive; symbol of a man with the head on his shoulders, not on his panties. As such,  representations of evil spirits and characters tended to have a disproportionally big one (a thing that continued to early Christianism and its representations of the devil and demons).

Hell, we just have to look to how ever-changing fashion is to see how mutable beauty standards are. Remember when mom jeans on women and long hair on men were despicable? Yeah, so do I. And Im not that old.

The thing is, you simply can't say "it makes sense for female frames to be skinnier than male frames cause orokin were perfectionists" because we don't know exactly what kind of perfectionism they abide for, and we simply don't have any evidence that the orokin found beauty a gender-differing thing-- except for the body of frames, which will just lead to a circular argument.

And the truth is, with the very little scrap of cultural lore we have, we might even say that they didn't abide to our gender-based beauty concepts.

Why? Well, first, we know that the Orokin are inhuman-- so it makes sense that they cast aside human frailties such as the incompleteness of gender, instead each becoming androgynous. Otherwise, if sexual complementarianism was an important part of their society, I think we would already have heard about it.

Second, Operators. Operators are Orokin children, so they have invariably heritaged their culture, in particular aesthethical one. And what do we get from them? Well, we have 1)invariably crazy haircuts (which many people in this society aren't that found of), 2)invariably crazy clothing, and 3)Both sexes can use any haircut.

So, what I take from this is that the Orokin, at least aesthethically, probably function like District 1 and 2 from the Hunger Game series. For them, beauty isnt has much a set of rules as it is a concept: Pure, enormous extravagance.

Perhaps, for them, perfection was in that: In uniqueness, in a greater than life personality and physique.

So I think it makes perfect sense for female frames to be able to be bulky, or even enormous. After all, there isn't nothing in the game that goes expressively against that (indeed, there are several things supporting my theory on their beauty concepts and gender dynamics), excess the absence of big bulky frames.... Which, let's be honest, is possibly more due to human IRL input than anything.

[Achaix]

2 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Now for something more on topic.

While this is all good and all there is a good reason not to have it.

Lore wise the Orokin were perfectionists, thus all the male frames are perfect examples of men, even the pretty Nezha.

All the female frames are what are considered normal and beautiful.

 

A large bulky woman is not normal, it takes 8+ hours a day in a gym and normally testosterone supplements to get that huge.

And yes full figured women use to be considered attractive but that was because their families had money thus they didn't have to work and had plenty of food.

IIRC, weren't all frames considered terrifying/disgusting by the Orokin?

Edited October 11, 2016 by Achaix
Clarity

[Ibro156]

2 minutes ago, Achaix said:

IIRC, weren't all frames considered terrifying/disgusting?

No, that was the Operator during the Second Dream by Ballis.

[Achaix]

4 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

No, that was the Operator during the Second Dream by Ballis.

Oh, right. Still, you have to wonder what kind of standards the Orokin had if they saw scarred children as monsters and technocytic golems as beautiful.