body diversity in lady frames

[leperkhaun]

I find it rather weird how much the idea of having a female frame with more variation is being meet with such strong opposition. 

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

If she is "very slim" then Mesa and ivara are what? None-existent?

Mesa has the legs.  Ivara has DAT AZZ.  :D

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, leperkhaun said:

I find it rather weird how much the idea of having a female frame with more variation is being meet with such strong opposition. 

What's being resisted is the idea of variance for variance's sake.

[Azrael]

Just now, Corvid said:

What's being resisted is the idea of variance for variance's sake.

But many people have said that's not what they're asking for. Often it seems like any variance is just labeled "variance for variance sake" just because they don't want it. And anyway, who ever said that have variation in frames and weapons and gameplay and aesthetics and everything else in this game was a bad thing? Who's ever said "oh, there's too much variety in that game, I prefer a game where everything's the same."

People are acting like anybody asking for more variety must be part of some evil campaign against manhood, or something.

[Xriborg]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

But many people have said that's not what they're asking for. Often it seems like any variance is just labeled "variance for variance sake" just because they don't want it. And anyway, who ever said that have variation in frames and weapons and gameplay and aesthetics and everything else in this game was a bad thing? Who's ever said "oh, there's too much variety in that game, I prefer a game where everything's the same.

This. So much this.

[Vox_Preliator]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

But many people have said that's not what they're asking for. Often it seems like any variance is just labeled "variance for variance sake" just because they don't want it. And anyway, who ever said that have variation in frames and weapons and gameplay and aesthetics and everything else in this game was a bad thing? Who's ever said "oh, there's too much variety in that game, I prefer a game where everything's the same."

People are acting like anybody asking for more variety must be part of some evil campaign against manhood, or something.

The problem is that when someone asks for variety, they often begin with the desired variety as a starting point.  No matter how fitting and well-designed a frame is that results from that discussion, if it began as "a female frame that is bulky," the thought of it as "the bulky female frame" instead of "the Mixed Martial Arts frame" (for example) will always be present, which can be distasteful to some.  Whether variance for the sake of variance is or is not bad, there are plenty who think one or the other is the definite answer, and opening a discussion this way invites those sorts to cause conflict.

Also, I feel there's a difference between "variance" and "diversity."  Variance is reasonable, but when applying Diversity to anthropomorphic robots it hits a bit too close to reality, where the existence of diversity has caused real issues.  Diversity, for better or worse, has become a buzzword, and people tend to just react to buzzwords.

These kinds of threads rarely develop good discussion, though this one has remained surprisingly productive, if you want this sort of diversity I feel you need to begin with developing a frame with the desired diversity as a secondary but necessary characteristic.

[nosand]

Hm no i think its fine.

The slimmer they are the more like a ninja right?

Ninjas are agile and thus fast

(If you played warframe you know fast)

theirs no fat guy frames

why would we need a chub girl frame?

i say Nay.

(This is just my opinion)

[Ozamchist]

Has anyone brought up the fact that Saryn has some really nice broad shoulders? I'm bringing it up because, hey I dig shoulders.

Also if we are going to argue that orokin admired beauty, and thus the female frames ought to be a certain way because of that, then why does everyone tell my hydroid is ugly as sin? (I don't think he is, but I hear that a lot)

[Ibro156]

29 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

The problem is that when someone asks for variety, they often begin with the desired variety as a starting point.  No matter how fitting and well-designed a frame is that results from that discussion, if it began as "a female frame that is bulky," the thought of it as "the bulky female frame" instead of "the Mixed Martial Arts frame" (for example) will always be present, which can be distasteful to some.  Whether variance for the sake of variance is or is not bad, there are plenty who think one or the other is the definite answer, and opening a discussion this way invites those sorts to cause conflict.

 

True, I completely agree on your point, but so far this topic been somewhat civil. Ignoring the few pointing fingers at people for being something that they aren't.

29 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Also, I feel there's a difference between "variance" and "diversity."  Variance is reasonable, but when applying Diversity to anthropomorphic robots it hits a bit too close to reality, where the existence of diversity has caused real issues.  Diversity, for better or worse, has become a buzzword, and people tend to just react to buzzwords.

 

I think you're looking for the word "connotation". Meaning evoke the person's emotion and thoughts towards that word. For example, the words "Envy" and "Admiration" are practically two words of the same but have slightly two different meanings, creating a different reaction from a different person. This is the same issue with "variance" and "diversity", they practically the same word but diversity has a negative connotation because of outside Gaming Medias and etc. So when a gamer saw this topic, they're reaction most likely will be a negative word because one; it's about a female character, which games have been bashed by other medias like News because of their early stages of gaming. And two, the word "diversity", reminds the reader about the real life issues, making them more hostile towards this topic.

29 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

These kinds of threads rarely develop good discussion, though this one has remained surprisingly productive, if you want this sort of diversity I feel you need to begin with developing a frame with the desired diversity as a secondary but necessary characteristic.

 

How about an "AoE Crowd Controlling Tank". We don't have any one of these yet. We have Rhino, Atlas, Val and Chroma are designed to take a beating and dish it out in some form or another.

13 minutes ago, nosand said:

Hm no i think its fine.

The slimmer they are the more like a ninja right?

Ninjas are agile and thus fast

(If you played warframe you know fast)

theirs no fat guy frames

why would we need a chub girl frame?

i say Nay.

(This is just my opinion)

 

Rhino is considered to be the "heaviest Warframe ever to be created". Look up in Rhino's codex (standard one). So in theory, if this frame can't do it. Rhino shouldn't be able to do it either.

Side note: we're not even that great of a ninja. We just sneak into areas then mass murder everyone there.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Ibro156

[arch111]

If we are talking themes,  I would very much like an animastic natureframe that were muscular and imposing, a beast or changeling as well.

I can certainly see a spider or scorpion being more armored and more interesting in design.

An elephant-themed would allso fit the style - see hindugods and heroes for that.

This is not a problem - any theme can look any way DE want it to. Did Hydroid need to be that big and bulky? They made a choice To go with the Davy Jones type.

They could have gone for a mercreature/poseidon just as easily.

[RNGesuskills]

I wouldn't mind an elephant themed atlas large arms with mesa body.

[robbybe01234]

I see it like this.  It is actually a form of censorship against the artist/designer.  Instead of the artist/designer creating what they want based on their own sensibilities, they must be limited to create what "some" viewers would decide is different enough from what has already been created.   Think of it like a throttle on the creative process, even if in the end the creations from the 1 artist are similar, that was their choice to make those similar works.  On the viewer/consumer end, this is solved by there being many, many different artists/designers in the world.

[RunningTree3]

1 hour ago, Vox_Preliator said:

The problem is that when someone asks for variety, they often begin with the desired variety as a starting point.  No matter how fitting and well-designed a frame is that results from that discussion, if it began as "a female frame that is bulky," the thought of it as "the bulky female frame" instead of "the Mixed Martial Arts frame" (for example) will always be present, which can be distasteful to some.  Whether variance for the sake of variance is or is not bad, there are plenty who think one or the other is the definite answer, and opening a discussion this way invites those sorts to cause conflict.

Also, I feel there's a difference between "variance" and "diversity."  Variance is reasonable, but when applying Diversity to anthropomorphic robots it hits a bit too close to reality, where the existence of diversity has caused real issues.  Diversity, for better or worse, has become a buzzword, and people tend to just react to buzzwords.

These kinds of threads rarely develop good discussion, though this one has remained surprisingly productive, if you want this sort of diversity I feel you need to begin with developing a frame with the desired diversity as a secondary but necessary characteristic.

 

8 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

I see it like this.  It is actually a form of censorship against the artist/designer.  Instead of the artist/designer creating what they want based on their own sensibilities, they must be limited to create what "some" viewers would decide is different enough from what has already been created.   Think of it like a throttle on the creative process, even if in the end the creations from the 1 artist are similar, that was their choice to make those similar works.  On the viewer/consumer end, this is solved by there being many, many different artists/designers in the world.

These are definitely important points to consider. Having a set desired end point would be limiting to the creative process. Even Mynki in Devstream 14 (i think?) said specifically that having one source of inspiration is not that great for designing. We can see this way of thinking in the hybrid cultural and natural world references we see in each individual warframe 'character', e.g. Hydroid's mix of Cthulhu-esque deep water monstrosity with Age of Sail high seas corsair; Ivara's fantasy wood ranger with poison-dart tree-frog camouflage; Equinox's Taoist ideas of dualism with Tai Chi motion and Modernist design ethics of harmony, balance, simplicity.

I think this type of discussion, particularly when well-reasoned, is simply one of many forms of thought-provoking feedback that can be useful to an artist/creator. Yes, they may have particular sensibilities, which based on the track record so far has been great and well-loved. And I think because of this, we (or at least myself personally) would love to see this sensibility developed and broadened further.

Of course it would be severely limiting if this and only this one idea was implemented narrow-mindedly. The feedback from the OP, and from many before this, and many after, is to suggest that a wider range of body types be considered in the existing and overall creative process -- to be able to include as part of the development process "what if it could look like this, or this, or maybe this..."

I used the word 'love' a few times already over the course of this thread; and I sincerely feel most of us offer feedback out of love and joy for the work of the creative/development team and wish very well for them to grow as artists and as a company.

[texrei]

9 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

If she is "very slim" then Mesa and ivara are what? None-existent?

Ivara is one of the thickest female frames. Mesa? Mesa has thighs

[Maqabir]

12 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

 

These are definitely important points to consider. Having a set desired end point would be limiting to the creative process. Even Mynki in Devstream 14 (i think?) said specifically that having one source of inspiration is not that great for designing. We can see this way of thinking in the hybrid cultural and natural world references we see in each individual warframe 'character', e.g. Hydroid's mix of Cthulhu-esque deep water monstrosity with Age of Sail high seas corsair; Ivara's fantasy wood ranger with poison-dart tree-frog camouflage; Equinox's Taoist ideas of dualism with Tai Chi motion and Modernist design ethics of harmony, balance, simplicity.

This is a very good point.

I'd definitely love to see a thicker/bulkier frame if the creative process led them down that route. 

The end result of having a frame's proportions be inspired its themes rather than be forced upon the developers to fill a quota would most likely also result in a better thought out and more interesting frame as well. 

[Human_Cancer]

Honestly, after looking through this thread, I'm surprised at how well it's turned out. Things have stayed mostly civil, which is strange. Anyway, might as well put in my two cents.

When it comes to this sort of thing, restricting what a creator can do is the last thing we want. Whether this means they can only make white dudes or anything else doesn't matter. If DE decides to make a fat frame, I won't have any problem with it, as long as they weren't forced to make the frame fat. Diversity for diversitys' sake is never good.

[Doom_Bunny]

I'm going to play with inconsequential stuff for the moment.

On the topic of Warframes are just bio-mechanical weapons that can take any form. We do have the backstory of Ordis, how he was alive and then was turned into a cephlon. Now if warframes are the culmination of orokin technology, it may include this type of technology that turned a skilled fighter into a cephalon. Which for me at least would explain Excal's codex, Second dream ending, and even why these things are shaped like humans in the first place; so that they retain the abilities they once had while expanding it tenfold.

But this is fluff until DE do more explaining.

 

[friendofvampires]

Every time i see this thread (3rd time) I always think that this is a silly topic. DE will make what Mynki and the coders give us and I, for one, will be just as stoked for every new frame that's added to the roster. If we are given a nice bulky/chubby lady frame or a skinny boy frame, i'll be equally stoked. All y'all getting up in arms over what should and shouldn't be the design of one hypothetical frame that has one particular aspect are just making fools of yourself

[Heatnix.]

Oh look... people complaining about body types completely insecure of their own appearance and expecting others to respect diverse shapes without they, themselves, respecting their own and the ones provided by the game.

 

Oh look, people opposing any type of change out of really disliking the whiny people mentioned before and not because they have an actual reason to oppose the sentiment and make it clear they don't care about the difference.

 

I for one must say that I don't give a half a damn split into a quarter about shape diversity or representation. No one really should, but this is the age of whining and acceptance through forcing others to accept. Given that I couldn't care any less about these "issues" created by people that feel so tiny that even things on entertainment products cause them to feel bad and requiring constant assurance that they are fine as they are.

[RoninJed]

1 hour ago, Infested_Host said:

When it comes to this sort of thing, restricting what a creator can do is the last thing we want. Whether this means they can only make white dudes or anything else doesn't matter. If DE decides to make a fat frame, I won't have any problem with it, as long as they weren't forced to make the frame fat. Diversity for diversitys' sake is never good.

 I agree the creators shouldn't be restricted but I think we have already seen it. Remember when Oberon came out and people complained about his arms being too skinny. Well...DE listened and made his arms bigger because the majority wanted it. There were no threads or people posting saying or acting like they were offered by DE for making Oberons arms bigger because you know...guys with skinny arms can be strong too. You didn't see anything like that because it just seems silly in a fictional game were we play as characters who aren't even human.

 Now when the deluxe skin for banshee came out people said it didn't match the concept art enough and that it was thicker..or wider..or they even used that evil f word...fatter. Well that spawned a lot of threads...kinda like this one. I think DE could've made her deluxe skin thinner and more like the concept (which is what most seem to want) but feared the PC backlash would be to much. Either way I don't think DE should be forced to inject today's politically correct ideas into a fictional video game with space ninjas. 

 

[notlamprey]

I think we're already looking at more than enough "diversity," because game's fiction supports a specific direction in Warframe design.

In-universe, the Warframes themselves are derivative works. They roughly emulate an Orokin design, shaped and built to the "Orokin" standard of beauty. DE gets to decide what that standard is, and I'm entirely fine with that.

If they make art that I love and "have to have," then I'll spend plat to get it. If they don't, I won't. The market speaks.

The bottom line for me is that something feels very wrong about community attempts (however well-meaning) to push Warframe's art design in some mostly-undefined new direction. That stuff is for the artists to decide, and people will pay for it if they love it.

Also, aren't we forgetting TennoGen in all this? Wouldn't that be a much better place to be making these suggestions? Rather than asking that DE make broad changes to their design process, we ought to be using the pipeline DE has already built. If there really is sufficient community support for these kinds of aesthetics in Warframe, I think we can expect to see TennoGen skins that use them.

I don't know, my dudes. This conversation feels like it has such wide-ranging implications that I almost can't bring myself to post anything at all. There are so many points to consider, and I know I'll always be forgetting something no matter how hard I try to make a worthy contribution to the discussion.

tl;dr I'm entirely happy with Warframe's art design in general, and I don't think 'more variety in Warframe body types' is something the community should be pushing.

[jsnforce]

On 10/9/2016 at 8:50 AM, senatorspade said:

I'm just wondering, all the lady frames are beautiful and I love them, but I really think there could be tankier looking ladies. The male frames range from Nezha and Nekros to Rhino and Chroma. and it would be great if this same diversity in body types could be applied to lady frames. I'm in no way saying that sexy feminine lady frames are a bad thing, I'm totally in love with them. Some people might argue that lady frames should all be feminine to differentiate them from males, but characters like nezha and oberon's feyarch skin have feminine features too. Again, not saying lady frames shouldn't be feminine, femininity is great and should never be looked down on. But their body types are just too constant. A frame can be bulky and still be feminine too. Not looking to start any arguements, simply providing constructive criticism. 

I like how you repeatedly made sure people didn't think you were being all tumblrina-thin-shaming. You want options and variety. Nothing wrong with that.

[RunningTree3]

3 hours ago, RoninJed said:

 I agree the creators shouldn't be restricted but I think we have already seen it. Remember when Oberon came out and people complained about his arms being too skinny. Well...DE listened and made his arms bigger because the majority wanted it. There were no threads or people posting saying or acting like they were offered by DE for making Oberons arms bigger because you know...guys with skinny arms can be strong too. You didn't see anything like that because it just seems silly in a fictional game were we play as characters who aren't even human.

The reason could also be that male body image and representation have not had as prevalent as vocal expression, even though body dysphoria in males is a thing. Does not necessarily mean that no-one commented because doing so would seem silly.

5 hours ago, Infested_Host said:

Honestly, after looking through this thread, I'm surprised at how well it's turned out. Things have stayed mostly civil, which is strange. Anyway, might as well put in my two cents.

Not at all a bad thing to make this sort of civil conduct more commonplace. I would like to again take the opportunity to thank everyone participating for the discussion. The goal may not be to all come to consensus, but at the very least we can continue to be a better community by sharing and respecting each others differences.

[jsnforce]

I think now that DE isn't trying to keep us in the dark as to the nature of Warframes, they can design newer frames more freely. There's no need to convince us that there's a person in the suit, so they could have all sorts of new shapes -in fact, there's no reason to keep pretending they're male or female. Killer war machines don't need non-functional boobs and childbearing hips.

 

[arch111]

Pretty sure they said multilegged and nonhuman warframes are not impossible in the future.