body diversity in lady frames

[Kyronz]

27 minutes ago, arch111 said:

Pretty sure they said multilegged and nonhuman warframes are not impossible in the future.

we are getting the Rockettes as a frame?  Cool!

[Ibro156]

3 hours ago, CoRRh said:

I think that DE will make whatever the hell they want, which is pretty much always up to the artist's vision. These days, it seems like most of the conscious choices in body proportions is derived from direct influences. Dragons are very bulky, Nezha is a child god, ect. The reason Rhino sticks out so much is due to how simple his inspiration was, being one of the first frames. So, in the end, I think we should leave it up to DE to make the choice in the shape of the frame. Matching a theme is the most important thing, and there could be a theme that matches a bulky, muscular female frame in the near future. However, the development process of a frame is more than just design. At any time, DE has a backlog of several frames. I remember a stream a few months back where they discussed how they had 5 frames in the pipeline. My point is that DE may have something along these lines planned, and we won't know. In the end, it's all up to them.

I wouldn't say people have been saying "DE must do it or else", so far it seem to had stay as a suggestion that DE could do or reject, which is fine.

We're more talking about the topic as whole interns of Gaming a bit as well and body variance is good or not. There a have been some few that were somewhat hostile but I would say this thread has been very well productive. It so far came up with some good arguments on both side staying civil.

When they say they five frames in Pipeline, it just means there some frames in progress. They can sometimes won't release becuase they simply might not like it or if it just doesn't work.

[Azrael]

18 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

I wouldn't say people have been saying "DE must do it or else", so far it seem to had stay as a suggestion that DE could do or reject, which is fine.

I agree, I haven't seen anybody trying to force anything down anybody's throat. People are just saying "I'd like this."

[Syln]

On 11/10/2016 at 10:40 PM, senatorspade said:

you can't change the body type of bulky male frames so why make that apply to bulky female frames????? if you don't like the bulky lady frames, don't play them. you'll always have the frames you like to choose from. 

It could be really problematic making it an option at all.

Well maybe that imply ... i don't know ... body slide for male too ? i didn't mention it since i don't care about male body type :x

[cghawk]

normally I would be all for diversity but since these warframes are built specifically for war it makes sense that there isn't allot of diversity, the only way a maybe bigger/think warframe could maybe make sense is because they're bigger they got more room to put power into the suit otherwise no idea.

[kasalaba]

@CoRRh Easy answer. Because people want it. Warframe has been the game where stereotypes do not apply, since its in the future and in space and ALIENS. So all players want to feel included and equal. So many players (not exclusively women), myself included, feel like a better body diversity on female frames would be great and by great I mean necessary. It also costs nothing, same development time, just different styling. Hope that's good enough for you.

[Mak_Gohae]

15 hours ago, CoRRh said:

Here's my problem: People keep complaining about how all of the current female frames are just slim and that's wrong, but they're missing the point. Saryn is the prime case for this.

Folks, start thinking of things in an artistic or even in a poetic sense. Why is Saryn all sexy? Not simply because boobs are cool. Toxifying beauty. That's the theme. Something so beautiful it's poisonous, while also literally being poisonous. Nova is like a contradiction. Something so small can still be incredibly powerful. Just because the frame doesn't match the image in your head doesn't make it wrong.

People always cite Valkyr as being a big point.

Why is something so slim so tanky? How come the tank isn't my idea of what a tank should be?

Probably because crazy people are crazy, which is exactly the theme of Valkyr, who was tortured and is now angry because of it. 

A perceived idea isn't always the final result. Mao Zedong caused the deaths of millions of people, but most grade-schoolers could beat him in a footrace.

I dont think people are saying it's wrong, what people are saying is that it's boring. The female frames look for the most part like its basically the same frame with different accessories.

Those are good ideas for the design but the problem is that the design for female frames is stuck in that slim body type. The new music frame is going to be yet another slim female frame.  This isnt just something that pops ups in a quarter of the frames this is the majority.

15 hours ago, CoRRh said:

Nova is unique. Titania is lanky. Equinox has a bulky form and a slim, flowy form.  That's 6. There's 14 female frames

Whats unique about nova? The only thing i see that separates her from the standard slim is that she very small breasts.

Equinox doesnt really count because the frame is both male and female.

Quote

Here's the thing to notice, how many of these standard slim frames have been in the latter half of the released frames? You'll find that the majority are in the first half of Warframe. The bodies are getting more unique as we go.

Their are actually getting slimmer. I dont have Titania but he does look skinny and the music frame looks to follow that theme.

 

[DropDGamer]

Honestly an amazing point, that I have noticed recently. More "tanky" looking, yet still feminine female frames would be great. There is nothing wrong with what we currently have, would just be cool to add some more diversity to an already amazingly diverse game :)

[Misgenesis]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

 

Nearly all of the male ones look the same physically too. Differences being buffer and slimmer, which applies to females as well.

Equinox is confirmed female on both forms.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Misgenesis

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, Misgenesis said:

Nearly all of the male ones look the same physically too. Differences being buffer and slimmer, which applies to females as well.

Equinox is confirmed female on both forms.

Standard-

Ash, Ex, Chroma, Loki, Wukong

Slim-

Volt, Limbo, Nezha

Thicker-

Rhino, Hydo, Frost, Vauban

Unique-

Nekros, Atlas,

Beer Belly-

Oberon

There's a wider spread. Females have slim, standard, and curves. Curves has 3,slim has 2. The rest are standard with slight variations on the certain parts.

And Equinox was male\female until a Bruce Jenner joke. Dont care for the retcon, i think the male/female switch is cool.

[arch111]

27 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Standard-

Ash, Ex, Chroma, Loki, Wukong

Slim-

Volt, Limbo, Nezha

Thicker-

Rhino, Hydo, Frost, Vauban

Unique-

Nekros, Atlas,

Beer Belly-

Oberon

There's a wider spread. Females have slim, standard, and curves. Curves has 3,slim has 2. The rest are standard with slight variations on the certain parts.

And Equinox was male\female until a Bruce Jenner joke. Dont care for the retcon, i think the male/female switch is cool.

I can agree with this. As for Equinox that remains a female/male frame for me since it is so perfect for the duality-theme.

[Azrael]

33 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

And Equinox was male\female until a Bruce Jenner joke. Dont care for the retcon, i think the male/female switch is cool.

Yeah, I wasn't happy to learn about the retcon. If anything, making equinox "more normal" feels like overly sensitive people shoving something down DE's throat. People are talking about this thread trying to force DE's design to go somewhere, but they already forced DE to go the other way.

[Corvid]

20 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Yeah, I wasn't happy to learn about the retcon. If anything, making equinox "more normal" feels like overly sensitive people shoving something down DE's throat. People are talking about this thread trying to force DE's design to go somewhere, but they already forced DE to go the other way.

IIRC, it wasn't a retcon. Equinox was always female in both forms, but they used the terms "Masculine" and "Feminine" when referring to them separately. I can't recall an official statement of her actually switching genders.

[achromos]

On 10/9/2016 at 2:59 PM, Azrael said:

Okay, maybe I should ask my question again, a little clearer. What does this have to do with the topic, or anything? Why are you even saying this? Did you just want to comment on her? Or was there some connection that I can't see?

I wanted to post about what I posted about.  What does it have to do with the main topic?  Everything.  Body Diversity. Think about what you are saying, and the context at which I posted my comment. 

 

(Sorry for the late comment but I didn't get a notification that you replied)

[Azrael]

46 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Equinox was always female in both forms, but they used the terms "Masculine" and "Feminine" when referring to them separately.

Really? That's a little confusing. Does anybody have a link to any official-ness from DE regarding equinox prior to the official statement that she is female? I'm curious now. It's kind of hard to keep track of DE's official statements and lore because it's posted in so many places...

[(PSN)Dervicus]

On 10/9/2016 at 10:25 AM, Tricky5hift said:

Now why the Orokin designed Warframes to be humanoid

I don't think a Tenno would have a very easy time commanding a different type of body. Given that they are human(oid) themselves.

Edited October 13, 2016 by (PS4)WhiteGlas
oops i did a dumb

[Ailissa]

5 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Those are good ideas for the design but the problem is that the design for female frames is stuck in that slim body type.

And that's just how I like them.

 

I like how they look. I rarely play male frames because I don't like how they look.

[Azrael]

54 minutes ago, achromos said:

I wanted to post about what I posted about.  What does it have to do with the main topic?  Everything.  Body Diversity. Think about what you are saying, and the context at which I posted my comment. 

 

(Sorry for the late comment but I didn't get a notification that you replied)

It took me like ten minutes to track down the conversation and remember what was going on. :)

Okay, so this is a conversation about diversity in warframe design. You were talking about a picture of a woman that was posted earlier, and you said that "It looks like a very skillful photoshop of making a man look like a woman but I know it's not." You said that it looked like a woman's head on a male body. But the thread isn't about the femininity of real-life women, it's about variations in design of female warframes. I guess it just seemed a little out of place. 

There's no need for you to get snarky or condescending about it, or repeatedly post "read my comment" or "think about what you're saying" as if I'm unaware of what I've posted, or what you've posted. I just didn't understand why you decided we wanted to know your personal judgement on the appearance of women who's picture was posted. I still don't, to be honest.

Were you trying to say that the woman is a good example of body diversity because she looks like a man with a female head?

[Azrael]

9 minutes ago, Ailissa said:

And that's just how I like them.

 

I like how they look. I rarely play male frames because I don't like how they look.

And yet those male frames are in the game, and that doesn't hurt anything. There's nothing wrong with having frames that not everybody plays or likes.

[achromos]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

It took me like ten minutes to track down the conversation and remember what was going on. :)

Okay, so this is a conversation about diversity in warframe design. You were talking about a picture of a woman that was posted earlier, and you said that "It looks like a very skillful photoshop of making a man look like a woman but I know it's not." You said that it looked like a woman's head on a male body. But the thread isn't about the femininity of real-life women, it's about variations in design of female warframes. I guess it just seemed a little out of place. 

There's no need for you to get snarky or condescending about it, or repeatedly post "read my comment" or "think about what you're saying" as if I'm unaware of what I've posted, or what you've posted. I just didn't understand why you decided we wanted to know your personal judgement on the appearance of women who's picture was posted. I still don't, to be honest.

Were you trying to say that the woman is a good example of body diversity because she looks like a man with a female head?

Maybe we just don't understand each other and probably never will(?).  Look, I'm a blunt person and as you are the only one trying to take me to task on a simple forum post. 

I didn't know I needed your specific permission and acceptance of the quality of my posts to participate in addition to following the forum-user guideline, but ok...?

Why Did I have to make a comment about it?:  Because that body for a female warframe would have people confused (and start drama) IF they decided to use that for a female warframe (We'd probably have the same issue we did with Equinox(day))

Edited October 14, 2016 by achromos

[Azrael]

21 minutes ago, achromos said:

Because that body for a female warframe would have people confused (and start drama) IF they decided to use that for a female warframe (We'd probably have the same issue we did with Equinox(day))

This, at least, is a point that is related to the thread. I wish you had said this earlier, if you had I would have been like "ah, I get what you're saying now."

 

22 minutes ago, achromos said:

Look, I'm a blunt person and as you are the only one trying to take me to task on a simple forum post. 

I didn't know I needed your specific permission and acceptance of the quality of my posts to participate in addition to following the forum-user guideline, but ok...?

Never said you did. I just asked what your point was, and you kept responding to me and condescending to me and getting upset about me asking, so I kept trying to clarify that I just didn't understand what relevance it had to the thread. You resurrected this conversation to continue to tell me that I needed to "think about what I'm saying" and "read what you wrote." All I said was that I didn't get your point, and you made it this whole big thing. Now you're apparently feeling like I'm "taking you to task" and demanding that you get "specific permission."

Dude! All I said was that I didn't get your point! And then when you didn't appear to understand my question I tried to clarify it. That's it! Calm down!

[SinReplica]

Good thing Warframes are (so far) nothing but Infested, cybernetic, meat puppets - and the Operators are the representation of the human element. I guess the female Operators can start roiding out to meet your standards, but I doubt that will turn out well at their 'age'.

 

[hammerheathen]

5 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Standard-

Ash, Ex, Chroma, Loki, Wukong

Slim-

Volt, Limbo, Nezha

Thicker-

Rhino, Hydo, Frost, Vauban

Unique-

Nekros, Atlas,

Beer Belly-

Oberon

There's a wider spread. Females have slim, standard, and curves. Curves has 3,slim has 2. The rest are standard with slight variations on the certain parts.

And Equinox was male\female until a Bruce Jenner joke. Dont care for the retcon, i think the male/female switch is cool.

I have to disagree with this assessment, As I've stated earlier, most male variation is due to ornament. It might be perspective, but Oberons belly looks flat to me.

Female frames thus far appear to have FAR less ornament and most differentiation appears to be based on curvature differentials, but each body is visually distince. Most of their pelvis's are identical, but I can tell the difference between the torso, calves, bust, shoulders, groins, abdomen, and arms of essentially all female frames without ornament.

As opposed to most of the males who utilized identically shaped torsos, and legs, For the most part arms as well. The difference is the ornament that covers it up. We do have outliers there. Oberon and Nekros utilize different shaped arms and legs. Oberon has a different torso, as doe hydroid, his stance and ornament make him look fat. Nezha is Nezha, but if you got rid of rhino's armor he'd look like the rest.

There is of Course Vauban. He's unique in all of Warframe in that he looks relatively... normal. He's got a body type that according to the bmi is "obese" (ridiculous, but still).

I do however agree that retconing the male/female dichotomy of equinox was unfortunate.

I'm not disagreeing that the female body types are overly slim/similar. I'm disagreeing with the idea that they have less body variation than the males.

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, hammerheathen said:

I have to disagree with this assessment, As I've stated earlier, most male variation is due to ornament. It might be perspective, but Oberons belly looks flat to me.

As opposed to most of the males who utilized identically shaped torsos, and legs, For the most part arms as well. The difference is the ornament that covers it up. We do have outliers there. Oberon and Nekros utilize different shaped arms and legs. Oberon has a different torso, as doe hydroid, his stance and ornament make him look fat. Nezha is Nezha, but if you got rid of rhino's armor he'd look like the rest.

So what is your assessment?

Nekros body type is not ornament, Rhino's, Oberon has a thick mid section. That's not an ornament.

Frost is the one i can say it's "ornamental" because he looks like he is wearing a coat and has huge greaves  but since it's not a clear add-on like Oberon's tabard piece i am considering the coat his body.

This goes for Rhino, too.

You cant just say, "if you get rid of the bulk he will look like a different body type." Of course if you change the body it would look different.

Im talking about whats there, the base model we see. You cant strip anything from Rhino because what we see is Rhino.

Quote

Female frames thus far appear to have FAR less ornament and most differentiation appears to be based on curvature differentials, but each body is visually distince. Most of their pelvis's are identical, but I can tell the difference between the torso, calves, bust, shoulders, groins, abdomen, and arms of essentially all female frames without ornament.

I'm not disagreeing that the female body types are overly slim/similar. I'm disagreeing with the idea that they have less body variation than the males.

Like i said, outside of the 3 curvy and 2 skinny, the rest are the standard base with just slight variation in certain measurements. And if you are going to count Nova having a smaller chest then how can you discount Rhino when his measurements are bigger all over the place? We have to judge all the designs equally, here.

And the discussion is about overall body types and not if they all have the same exact measurements. Of course, very few have the same exact measurements. There is variation on the presentation but the base is the issue. The stuff they use to build on to create the frame.

Most female frames come from one standard base while males get to dip in all sorts of types in a more even spread.

The beerbelly thing was a joke so the spread is essentially, standard 5, slim 3, thicker 4, and unique 3. And i should probably be counting Chroma as unique or thicker but im throwing it in standard cause im counting the base as the frame and the armor as an add-on.

 

 

[jfhsanseiIII]

Also, one other point that is worth mentioning.  There're two types of ninjas.  The first is the one we are familiar with. It's an acrobatic character who is good with a multitude of weapons.  This is a character built upon mythology that has grown in both Japanese and developed more in western culture.  The second, the reality, ninja were pretty much anyone assasins, former samurai, mercenaries, farmers, housewives, etc. they came from all walks of life and performed a multitude of tasks. I realize that warframe leans more on the side of the first, but there's no reason for it to look at a historical context for ideas from the second. A final point to consider is that what's in the frame isn't human as far as we know. So, an agile chubby frame wouldn't be impossible. Look at rhino flipping about to and fro. My one caveat would be that it'd have to make sense. If it were fat and there was no real reason for it then I'd be annoyed. However if it were Sumo Frame, just an example not an idea I support or encourage, whose design is intended to push the enemies around, then I'd be more receptive.