Archwing weapons should not exist, reasons here. (and other thingys)

[rockscl]

Archwing weapons are one of the big reasons for why archwing is disconnected with the rest of the game, reasons:

1 Mastery Rank isolation

You can only rank up archwings weapons in archwing, thus theres no mastery rank synergy with the on-foot content.

2 Turns archwing enemies into common HP boxes

Archwing weapons are meant to make you destroy space ships just like if they were on-foot enemies, removing any bit of tenno vs space-ship unique interaction, space combat as a tenno should be not just about wrecking a ton of meaningless ships, those ships should have weak points that allows well modded common weapons to destroy them tactically, the whole mod system is space magic boosting weapons and bullets far beyond their original levels, so by example a vectis, a soma, a paris, should be able to open a space ship weak spots and eventually destroy engines, open hatches, pierce into c0ckpits, destroy guns.

Every archwing enemy spaceship (not humanoids with jet packs) should have a bit of the archwing pursuit target logic, hit weak spots, then cripple or destroy the ship.

3 The combination of the previous points makes archwing an alternate path which once completed adds almost nothing to the game.

4 Raises the question, why dont we just use Imperator to stomp on-foot missions (by example), applies to every other archwing weapon, weight, ammo and  size are not excuses, these weapons arent much bigger than an ogris or opticor, and are arbitrarily not allowed in foot missions.

 

This game in about several thing and one of the long term goals is gaining mastery rank, if archwing was more connected to the rest of the arsenal like this then the time invested in archwing missions would be more representative of the real interest in it.

Also, archwing should be a competitive or at least reliable spot to farm resources in general, not only tellurum, archwing has no Desecrate, no Pilfering swarm, etc, there are many efficiency reasons to not play archwing actually.

Edited October 14, 2016 by rockscl

[Imaru]

3 minutes ago, rockscl said:

Raises the question, why dont we just use Imperator to stomp on-foot missions (by example), applies to every other archwing weapon, weight, ammo and  size are not excuses, these weapons arent much bigger than an ogris or opticor, and are arbitrarily not allowed in foot missions.

There is actually a reason for that, anecdotal though it may be: they're too big. The Veritux says in it's description that "Weightless space turns this impossibly massive sword into an agile instrument of destruction" (never mind that we use it on Uranus missions when we go underwater). If we could use it on planets it would weigh us (the players) down. 

A weapon the size of the Imperator would simply be impractical on a terrestrial mission as it would get in our way. Even the bulkiest weapons we have (Ogris, Opticor, others) are a fraction of its size. 

[(XBOX)BroaderSaucer]

so basically... you dont want to level your archwing weapons, so they shouldnt exist?

[rockscl]

Just now, Imaru said:

There is actually a reason for that, anecdotal though it may be: they're too big. The Veritux says in it's description that "Weightless space turns this impossibly massive sword into an agile instrument of destruction" (never mind that we use it on Uranus missions when we go underwater). If we could use it on planets it would weigh us (the players) down. 

A weapon the size of the Imperator would simply be impractical on a terrestrial mission as it would get in our way. Even the bulkiest weapons we have (Ogris, Opticor, others) are a fraction of its size. 

I have played with the imperator without archwings and it works perfectly and deals absurd damage, also the grinners in uranus seems to become suddenly stronger when they get into the water as they gain thousands of hp

[Gelkor]

Archwing Enemies, Weapons, and Powers all scale differently. They are much more tightly tuned, with smaller variance between low rank and high rank enemies. This makes Archwing easier to balance, and a better look at what Damage 3.0 may end up looking like. 

I think it's fine that they are separate for this very reason, Archwing damage powers continue to scale decently against enemies that are designed to scale against Archwing weapons. 

If you used regular weapons, you would have to use regular scaling, which would mean level 40+ enemies would be WAY harder to people with low level gear, and low level Archwings and Archwing powers would be worthless. Elytron would be a joke. 

The current weapons serve their purpose in feeling weighty, grandiose and having varying mechanics that make them uniquely suited to Archwing Combat. I for one enjoy them and wouldn't trade in my Fluctus to use my Rakta Cernos in space.

[rockscl]

3 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

If you used regular weapons, you would have to use regular scaling, which would mean level 40+ enemies would be WAY harder to people with low level gear, and low level Archwings and Archwing powers would be worthless.

space ships should be space ships, not hp boxes, thats in my post already

Edited October 14, 2016 by rockscl

[(PSN)fullblast35]

just yesterday I was wondering about why there isn't any survival missions or a whole planet with only archwing missions and it's own boss in archwing mode. Then I thought maybe simply because the archwing category is poor in weaponry.  At first I didn't care about archwing  because to me it was side away from the reality of the game, but then there's MR levelling which is tied to it, finally i ended up liking it.  Now, if you're not interested in archwing and pointing out a weapon issue, I think it's tied to the fact that it gets boring at some point and not a lot of players focus on it like regular missions. Therefor you run alone most of the time and levelling takes longer.  If you could level an archwing weapon in a regular mission it would be pointless to even have the archwing concept to me.

[Skaleek]

I really wish enemy ships were much larger in AW, would make it feel more space-flighty.

[Gelkor]

Just now, rockscl said:

No, because space ships should be space ships, not hp boxes, thats in my post already

Something should be something and that explains why enemy level scaling like it is on the ground, which is completely broken by all measures in order to account for the massive damage increase of things like Serration, Heavy Caliber, and Split Chamber, and makes it so that static damage powers are pointless, that's why it would work in space?

The point I was making is that archwing guns have a higher base damage and a lower modded ceiling than ground guns, and that means Archwing Enemies can be better balanced.

You seem to think that putting the same broken moding schema as ground game into space + weakpoints suddenly means it would be better balanced?

[NightBlitz]

so.. you want to take a game mode that a large number of players would say was made worse a few months ago (its about the same now to me as it was before tho), and make it even worse. that'd be like blowing a leg off (movement changes) and then ripping the arms off (your idea)

[rockscl]

Just now, (PS4)fullblast35 said:

just yesterday I was wondering about why there isn't any survival missions or a whole planet with only archwing missions and it's own boss in archwing mode. Then I thought maybe simply because the archwing category is poor in weaponry.  At first I didn't care about archwing  because to me it was side away from the reality of the game, but then there's MR levelling which is tied to it, finally i ended up liking it.  Now, if you're not interested in archwing and pointing out a weapon issue, I think it's tied to the fact that it gets boring at some point and not a lot of players focus on it like regular missions. Therefor you run alone most of the time and levelling takes longer.  If you could level an archwing weapon in a regular mission it would be pointless to even have the archwing concept to me.

im interested in archwing, im not complaining for it being slow to rank up things, i have formaed vandal imperator, centaur and prime odonata, im clearly stating that the lack of connection between archwing and on foot weapons makes it inefficient to be playted and reduces the global play time invested in it.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

Why does it get so personal everytime someone could just make a positive suggestion to the Devs?  it's a developing and growing game guys, all suggestions a read and thought over.

[Imaru]

1 minute ago, rockscl said:

after clearing aside th fact that i have already ranked everything in archwing you have anything constructive to say ?

Countering a question with sarcasm isn't a good way to make a point (or allies).

As to your point earlier, you didn't address the issue I raised. Sure you used the Imperator on a normal mission, but unless you were under water the entire time, it was a bug that you experienced. It's damage is set to be able to deal with (sh)archwing enemies, not normal ones, so of course it worked really well. You were using a weapon meant for space combat against space craft and warships to kill foot soldiers. It's like using a cannon to deal with an anthill: you're using the wrong tool for the job and its massive overkill. 

[rockscl]

4 minutes ago, Imaru said:

Countering a question with sarcasm isn't a good way to make a point (or allies).

As to your point earlier, you didn't address the issue I raised. Sure you used the Imperator on a normal mission, but unless you were under water the entire time, it was a bug that you experienced. It's damage is set to be able to deal with (sh)archwing enemies, not normal ones, so of course it worked really well. You were using a weapon meant for space combat against space craft and warships to kill foot soldiers. It's like using a cannon to deal with an anthill: you're using the wrong tool for the job and its massive overkill. 

You are pointing the bug when the same grineer that gets under the water suddenly becomes balanced to resist anti space ship weapons, if they get under the water or if i get out of the water with the gun doesnt make any difference lorewise, i dont think theres need to keep consistency of the current state of the game when the suggestion is about radical changes.

And im sorry if i came with sudden sarcasm but when a deeply thought post is answered with twitter logics its irritating and i just got mixed between your post and his.

18 minutes ago, (XB1)BroaderSaucer said:

so basically... you dont want to level your archwing weapons, so they shouldnt exist?

Edited October 14, 2016 by rockscl

[GinKenshin]

why is the lack of connection a bad thing? why can't AW just be that game mode that you play because you're tired of the normal boring gameplay 


why do people WANT or NEED a connection? it's just absurd. and we aren't really facing massive ships here >.> 

[rockscl]

3 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

why is the lack of connection a bad thing? why can't AW just be that game mode that you play because you're tired of the normal boring gameplay 


why do people WANT or NEED a connection? it's just absurd. and we aren't really facing massive ships here >.> 

Pff, archwing being disconnected from the core game is one of the reasons why almost no one plays it, i for one like archwing a lot, but of course id rather farm some plats for the next skin

Edited October 14, 2016 by rockscl

[LSG501]

I don't mind archwing being separate levelling but I do think the levelling could be easier, a higher rate of gaining xp compared with normal weapons and larger (it is space) range to shared xp would really speed things up. 

Having said that... most of the players (including myself) in the clan I'm in doesn't exactly like archwing, none of us can actually see a need for it in a game that is really a first person ninja game with guns...

[GinKenshin]

9 minutes ago, rockscl said:

Pff, archwing being disconnected from the core gameplay is one of the reasons why almost no one plays it, i for one like archwing a lot, but of course id rather farm some plats for the next skin

it being disconnected has nothing to do with it. it's unpopular because people have to get gud to play it, have to rank up stuff all over again. people need to understand that AW isn't a rewarding gamemode, it's a thing you do for FUN. I guess after farming for stuff for years, people can't see fun anymore 

lol, and that farm plat.....yup, lol. you keep on farming then, you'll probably get bored somewhere along the way too, then the burnout then the quitting 

anyway, I'll adress your points: 

1- why the hell does it have to have synergy? 

2- so, basically you're saying since we can't fight these huge ships (grineer galleon and stuff like that) so AW weapons shouldn't exist, since we can use our own weapons to destroy them.....that's like saying in star wars, there shouldn't be X wing or Y wing or those empire ships. the fighting should only be with those huge ships, and you can destroy them using the stormtrooper's blaster....stupid right? 

3- again, it adds a fun little gamemode that you do when you're bored. just because you don't have fun with it (even if you're good at it) doesn't mean that's not true 

4- these are excuses dude. it's like saying "hmm, why don't I just carry this tank's cannon instead of my AK"


 

Edited October 14, 2016 by GinKenshin

[rockscl]

 

8 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

it being disconnected has nothing to do with it. it's unpopular because people have to get gud to play it
 

Lol, amesha?

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

1- why the hell does it have to have synergy? 

2- so, basically you're saying since we can't fight these huge ships (grineer galleon and stuff like that) so AW weapons shouldn't exist, since we can use our own weapons to destroy them.....that's like saying in star wars, there shouldn't be X wing or Y wing or those empire ships. the fighting should only be with those huge ships, and you can destroy them using the stormtrooper's blaster....stupid right? 

3- again, it adds a fun little gamemode that you do when you're bored. just because you don't have fun with it (even if you're good at it) doesn't mean that's not true 

4- these are excuses dude. it's like saying "hmm, why don't I just carry this tank's cannon instead of my AK"
 

1 Synergy and fun can exist at the same time

2 Im saying that it adds nothing to the game as these weapons by design turns those space ships into foot soldiers, theres nothing new about pointing and clicking into a different hp box

3  Synergy and fun can exist at the same time

4 A tenno could do that

Edited October 14, 2016 by rockscl

[Error989]

I might be a bit off topic but archwing is in my opinion a flop of it's own kind...
Warframe is supposed to be about space ninjas, not flying around with winds and huge weapons.
Archwing just feels empty and is not fun at all and will probably stay that way. There's absolutely nothing that can make me play if after I grind all my gear up. (I'm MR22 and have avoided archwing as much as I could, still need to grind a lot of stuff but it's not fun so I'm avoiding it)
In my opinion archwing should of never been made, but now that it is I dont agree that you should be able to level it up anywhere. It defeats the purpose of archwing. Devs want us to play it even tho it's not fun.
Archwing is kind of a game in a game. It will never fit in warframe.


I have also never played lunaro and new pvp


(this is just my opinion, you can agree or disagree, I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone)

[Xekrin]

53 minutes ago, rockscl said:

im clearly stating that the lack of connection between archwing and on foot weapons makes it inefficient to be playted and reduces the global play time invested in it.

You think using our normal everyday weapons would somehow garner more interest in Archwing?  Other than this thread right here, this is the first time anyone has considered this as a reason people don't play Archwing.

Personally I'd have to disagree.  I don't think it has to do with Archwing having its own special weapons at all.  But lets assume for a moment that we could use tonkor, quanta, normal bows or whatever in space.  Most of these weapons have limited range, weapons like tonkor depend on terrain to bounce grenades into their targets.  

So a good thick chunk of our weapons would need a total overhaul to make them archwing viable just for starters, and the rest, the ones with hitscan or unlimited range are setup to depend on ammo drops.  So now I suppose they auto refill as our current archwing weapons do, okay.  Except we have normal weapons with ammo that has rarity.  Bows with 72 arrows, grenade launchers with 20 or 30 max or whatever .  Do those regen slower to make up for ammo rarity?  Should we have to depend on ammo drops in space somehow?

No, I just don't see this working  out very well.  It is by far the easier route to have archwing weapons for that game mode rather than try and eliminate a few weapons designed for space combat and attempt to adjust every other weapon in game to work in space.

You brought up a very interesting point, however, in that archwing weapons are only leveled up in archwing missions, which some majority of players dislike.  That is the problem and it was should be addressed on its own terms.  A massive band-aid is still a band-aid and what we need is a better solution to leveling up archwings and its weapons.  

The removal of archwing weapons though isn't the solution.

[rockscl]

9 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

You think using our normal everyday weapons would somehow garner more interest in Archwing?  

Thats not the point, it will not increase the interest in it but unchain the actual interest in it, the point is that even if one likes archwing the way it is, its inefficient for the entire rest of the content, meaning that if i like playing pursuit, i still prefer running a fissure mission because pursuit gives literally nothing useful, and the weapon arsenal isolation is a big factor in that, but not the only one. Theres not archwing fissures, nor will be seeing how thing have gone, theres no archwing syndicate missions, theres no archwing drop duplicators(like Nkros, Iavara, Hydroid, Atlas, Kavats), and in the most transveral pth of play, theres no Mastery Gaining for the most numerous mastery content of the game (weapons) 

Edited October 14, 2016 by rockscl

[Yzjdriel]

I'm going to take this piece-by-piece, since looking at it all together is making my brain hurt.

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

Archwing weapons are one of the big reasons for why archwing is disconnected with the rest of the game, reasons:

I'm confused.  But you've included reasons, so surely one of these will help me understand your point...

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

1 Mastery Rank isolation

You can only rank up archwings weapons in archwing, thus theres no mastery rank synergy with the on-foot content.

And you can only rank up terrestrial weapons on foot.  You don't get any Affinity on your Warframe or terrestrial weapons while in Archwing mode, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

2 Turns archwing enemies into common HP boxes

Archwing weapons are meant to make you destroy space ships just like if they were on-foot enemies, removing any bit of tenno vs space-ship unique interaction, space combat as a tenno should be not just about wrecking a ton of meaningless ships, those ships should have weak points that allows well modded common weapons to destroy them tactically, the whole mod system is space magic boosting weapons and bullets far beyond their original levels, so by example a vectis, a soma, a paris, should be able to open a space ship weak spots and eventually destroy engines, open hatches, pierce into c0ckpits, destroy guns.

Every archwing enemy should have a bit of the archwing pursuit target logic, hit weak spots, then cripple or destroy the ship.

Wat

Archwing weapons are designed for spacefaring enemies, the same way that terrestrial weapons are designed for on-foot enemies.

As for Tenno-v-spaceship interaction, have you ever attacked a Balor Famorian?  You must have done, since you're Mastery Rank 22 and all (which, by the way, means absolutely nothing in terms of skill)...

Okay, let's take this idea.  Only let's not do it just for archwing, let's make it everywhere.

By this logic, every enemy we face should be a miniboss, and there shouldn't be any mooks at all.

Making this suggestion a reality would be the equivalent to making every enemy we face either a Manic, a Bursa, or a Juggernaut.  Would you find that entertaining?  I don't think so.

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

3 The combination of the previous points makes archwing an alternate path which once completed adds almost nothing to the game.

"[A]dds almost nothing to the game"

...except the game mode itself, new weapons to try, new enemies to kill, new missions to do, and a three-dimensional space to maneuver in.

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

4 Raises the question, why dont we just use Imperator to stomp on-foot missions (by example), applies to every other archwing weapon, weight, ammo and  size are not excuses, these weapons arent much bigger than an ogris or opticor, and are arbitrarily not allowed in foot missions.

...

Because it weighs too much for us to physically carry?

"[W]eight, ammo and  size [sic] are not excuses, [sic] these weapons arent [sic] much bigger than an ogris or opticor"

Okay, no.

Weight is DEFINITELY an issue, as is size.  A weapon that is too heavy and/or too large to wield is useless.

Ammo is an issue with every weapon, and the shells for Archwing weapons are much larger than terrestrial weapons.

And Archwing weapons ARE much bigger than an ogris or an opticor: some of them are literally four times the relative size compared the the Warframe model.

So no, it's not arbitrary that they're not usable while on foot.  It makes perfect sense.

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

This game in about several thing and one of the long term goals is gaining mastery rank, if archwing was more connected to the rest of the arsenal like this then the time invested in archwing missions would be more representative of the real interest in it.

*is

*things

"many efficiency reasons to not play warframe actually"  Then go play something else.

Warframe is about several things, the primary one being to have fun.

"if archwing was more connected to the rest of the [game]"

I'm not sure how much more connected you can get, what with the launch from a ship into space in the Archwing and Jordas Precept quests, use in the Limbo quest, integration into Sharkwing on Uranus, and the engaging and fresh gameplay presented in the Archwing missions.  Beyond adding an insertion option where you fight some enemies in Archwing, then bust into a spaceship through the window (which I'm pretty sure is in the works anyway), how much more connected do you want them to be?

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

Also, archwing should be a competitive or at least reliable spot to farm resources in general, not only tellurium;* archwing has no Desecrate, no Pilfering swarm, etc[.]

And here we find the only intelligent point you make.  Fitting it should come at the end.

 

Don't bother responding with salt or more flames, because I don't care.

/thread

Edited October 14, 2016 by Yzjdriel

[rockscl]

1 hour ago, Yzjdriel said:

And you can only rank up terrestrial weapons on foot.  You don't get any Affinity on your Warframe or terrestrial weapons while in Archwing mode, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

Nowhere have i suggested to rank up archwing content in normal missions but the contrary, the point of that was explained already in the op

2 hours ago, rockscl said:

This game in about several thing and one of the long term goals is gaining mastery rank, if archwing was more connected to the rest of the arsenal like this then the time invested in archwing missions would be more representative of the real interest in it.

 

1 hour ago, Yzjdriel said:

Weight is DEFINITELY an issue, as is size.  A weapon that is too heavy and/or too large to wield is useless.

This is the only constructive line in your post and that is just arbitrary, weight and size doesnt exist as parameters anywhere in the game, the Imperator is barely larger than an opticor

Spoiler

and tennos can jump without any mobility loss with an opticor in their hands, back, or wherever.

1 hour ago, Yzjdriel said:

 how much more connected do you want them to be?

I have developed into that too

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

the weapon arsenal isolation is a big factor in that(disconnection), but not the only one. Theres not archwing fissures, nor will be seeing how thing have gone, theres no archwing syndicate missions, theres no archwing drop duplicators(like Nkros, Iavara, Hydroid, Atlas, Kavats), and in the most transveral pth of play, theres no Mastery Gaining for the most numerous mastery content of the game (weapons) 

 

To not understand that the points you are talking about have been already developed shows that you dont really read the thread before posting.

Edited October 14, 2016 by rockscl

[Chipputer]

Definitely agree it needs something more than just, "floating dudes shooting guns in space." 

Taking Elytron to a Uranus survival and dropping a thumper, then standing inside of it while on foot can highlight just how differently tuned the game modes are. It should be tightened there since you can use archwing weapons against non-archwing enemies.