Melee enthusiasts unite! Lets hammer out Blocking together.

[ZurekMorraff]

Blocking.

Once so OP it's only limiter was our Stamina bar. Now, it's in a bad place, and I want us to all come together and hammer out a, balanced, solution.

As we all may or may not know, Each weapon class now has a % of damage reduction when simply Blocking, not Channel+Blocking, we'll get into that in a bit.

Those Numbers are as follows, from the wiki:

Claws	35%
Dagger	35%
Dual Daggers	35%
Sparring	35%
Glaive	35%
Nunchaku	35%
Tonfa	35%
Whip	35%
Blade and Whip	60%
Dual Swords	60%
Fist	60%
Gunblade	60%
Sword	60%
Staff	60%
Hammer	85%
Heavy Blade	85%
Machete	85%
Nikana	85%
Polearm	85%
Rapier	35%
Scythe	85%
Sword & Shield	85%

 

There are 3 damage reduction values: 35%, 60%, and 85%.

Those alone, are not bad numbers. The logic behind them, however, is bad.

Take a look at the chart. It's pretty easy to see that the governing logic is "Bigger = Better"... until you notice that Fists are better, not equal, then Sparing and Claws, but are equal to Single Sword. Then you notice that Single and Double variants have no difference between each other either.

But then the logic changes. No longer is it "Bigger = Better", it becomes a test of skill, so the Nikana is in the highest rung. But this logic is solely made for the Nikana.

I don't think the 3 values need to change, but i think the whole list should follow the same logic. You can leave the Nikana out, sure, that's fine, I get that it's supposed to be a Masters weapon, but the rest should be looked at. Again, that prime example of Fists being better the Sparring while basically being the same size/thing.

Now, on to Channel+Blocking.

Channeling while Blocking completely sweeps aside that entire list above, and gives you 100% damage reduction from blocked bullets, and reflects them back... at a cost. Each bullet reflected cost X-Energy. Each bullet blocked consecutively "slowly" ramps up the X-Energy cost. I say "slowly" because from what i can tell it's roughly 1-Energy, additive, per bullet blocked, until it's 10-Energy per bullet. Again, I say "roughly" because this information doesn't exist. It's not listed anywhere. It's mentioned, in DevStreams from long past, and before the official changes were put in place, so they could have changed the values from what they had stated.

So, not only is the information not listed anywhere, but if what I think is correct, that the ramp up is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ,10, 10, 10, 10-etc, then Volt and Saryn Prime, the 2 Warframes with the Highest energy pools in the game, achieved through Primed Flow and Endurace Drift, at 880, can ONLY BLOCK 93 (rounded up) BULLETS before the run out of all their energy.

"Now hold on Zurek, 92 bullets isn't all that bad."

Right, against one, single, individual, enemy unit.

When you're staring at a crowd, your energy pool goes from Full to Empty real quick.

All I really want out of this is:

1. Someone from DE puts out the Channel-Block cost and ramp up rate. I've gone looking, and as far as I can tell, it's seriously not listed anywhere.

Once that's up, then we might be able to discuss the numbers, because its all guess work right now, but from all i've tested, it's not worth Channeling and Blocking, in the slightest.

 

[Extroah]

Melee enthusiast here. I'm never using blocking so i couldn't care less to be honest. :| Regular blocking isn't worth it 95% of the time because everything will be long gone before it would have any benefit. Same with channeled blocking, even though this could be from benefit in really high level Missions (LV100+ or so) but i'm rarely playing those. I think DE will rework this at some point, most probably once the Content that's aimed at Veterans will come out since we'll most probably need it then.

[Kalvorax]

Personally..channeled blocking has sucked since they did away with the stamina bar...especially with a certain frame (im looking at you excal) with his auto block "feature" on EB....dont you dare channel or poof, no more energy. even with a weapon built specifically for channeling it still sucks to all ends of space.

I LOVE blocking, especially against infested (stops those pesky non-stop hookshots if your not using handspring), but that is only one faction where channeling is...decent...as your not dealing with hundreds of bullets flying around.

[Aeiroth]

Channeled blocking is energy suicide. Using a Volt Prime with 850 Energy and an Ack&Brunt against a Level 140 Ballista will require 95 Energy per shot since the channeling cost increases with damage.

Using the same set up against an Elite Lancer however cost all 850 energy within 5 seconds...

 

NEVER EVER EVER CHANNEL WHILE BLOCKING.

[VisionAndVoice]

Doesn't channeled blocking cost the same as channeled strikes? I think it does. So for each blocked pellet you pay as much energy as you would for a strike.

Edited October 27, 2016 by VisionAndVoice

[Gr33hn]

The whole point of the thread got lost to me when I saw the list, its so arbitrary.

A 2 handed hammer is better at blocking than a nimble blade like a rapier!?

A nikana blocks as well as a shield!?

[DJ_Vauban]

Not much to say on my end, I simply want blocking to actually BLOCK the damage again, not reduce it -w- That and new blocking animations would be nice, I don't see how swinging a giant hammer back and forth could block anything at all

[Tsukinoki]

57 minutes ago, ZurekMorraff said:

There are 3 damage reduction values: 35%, 60%, and 85%.

Those alone, are not bad numbers. The logic behind them, however, is bad.

Take a look at the chart. It's pretty easy to see that the governing logic is "Bigger = Better"... until you notice that Fists are better, not equal, then Sparing and Claws, but are equal to Single Sword. Then you notice that Single and Double variants have no difference between each other either.

But then the logic changes. No longer is it "Bigger = Better", it becomes a test of skill, so the Nikana is in the highest rung. But this logic is solely made for the Nikana.

I don't think the 3 values need to change, but i think the whole list should follow the same logic. You can leave the Nikana out, sure, that's fine, I get that it's supposed to be a Masters weapon, but the rest should be looked at. Again, that prime example of Fists being better the Sparring while basically being the same size/thing.

I honestly think that they should just throw out the over-broad categories and give different weapons different blocking numbers unique to that weapon.

For instance lets look at the "Gunblades".
Does it make sense that the Sarpa can block as much damage as the Redeemer?

Or does it make that a single sword can block as much damage as two swords?

I think they should fine-tune the numbers to the weapons as it also allows them to make weapons a bit more side-gradey to each other.
After all, without the broad categories you can have the choice of "Do I want this weapon that is faster?  Or do I want this weapon that can block a bit more damage..." within the same category (look again at the gunblades for where I'm drawing that specific scenario).  Or it could even be "Do I want this weapon with longer reach?  Or better blocking?"

I do agree that there should be a set of rules to follow for what weapon blocks what percentage of damage, but I think it can be made a lot more granular than it is for more options to balance around.

As to your Channel+Block section:
Besides the official numbers/maths on how energy cost is calculated I would also like it for channeling efficiency mods to affect that cost as well.  Kind of weird that they don't do it already....

2 minutes ago, DJ_Vauban said:

Not much to say on my end, I simply want blocking to actually BLOCK the damage again, not reduce it -w- 

That was only balanced when we had stamina that limited blocking.  Otherwise its a way to be 100% immortal by just standing there with a weapon in front of you with absolutely nothing that the enemies can do to you.

Without some way to limit it, it would just be OP, as shown by Excalibur when his blocking made him invincible...especially since he has an auto-block.  They changed that in a hurry and for good reason.

[DJ_Vauban]

15 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

That was only balanced when we had stamina that limited blocking.  Otherwise its a way to be 100% immortal by just standing there with a weapon in front of you with absolutely nothing that the enemies can do to you.

Without some way to limit it, it would just be OP, as shown by Excalibur when his blocking made him invincible...especially since he has an auto-block.  They changed that in a hurry and for good reason.

I guess it depends on what you define as "op" owo if blocking worked in 360° then yes, that would be kinda "op" I guess but you're only blocking everything that comes at you from in front of you. It doesn't seem any stronger than valkyr running around in hysteria or Rhino using Iron skin, the only difference here is that those two frames can attack WHILE being pretty much invincible in comparison to melee where you would either be locked into blocking or attacking, which sounds actually more op to me than being able to just simply block 100% damage, and only from one side at a time, while NOT being able to attack as well. Hek it might even give us a new way of tanking, while you stand in front of your team and block attacks, your squad mows down the enemy.

Edited October 27, 2016 by DJ_Vauban
typo

[BrazilianJoe]

I would ditch it for a Blocking 2.0:

1. Blocking would reduce damage in a 180 hemisphere in front of the player.

2. MR plays a part, each MR increases 1% blocking damage mitigation.

3. The weapon hitbox would block 100%. anything around it would mitigate but let some damage pass through.

4. Maximum damage mitigation is 60% + MR% at the closest vicinity to the weapon hitbox but outside it.

5. Minimum damage mitigation is MR%. 

6. The falloff to reduce from 60% + MR% to just MR% is where the weapon classification counts, with some weapons having more falloff, and others less. Sword + Shield should be the best weapon bar none. 

[ZurekMorraff]

11 hours ago, VikingoX said:

The whole point of the thread got lost to me when I saw the list, its so arbitrary.

A 2 handed hammer is better at blocking than a nimble blade like a rapier!?

A nikana blocks as well as a shield!?

 

I agree. The logic is "Bigger = Better" but it's kinda silly in those regards. That's why I want to see this get reformed.

[ZurekMorraff]

11 hours ago, Aeiroth said:

Channeled blocking is energy suicide. Using a Volt Prime with 850 Energy and an Ack&Brunt against a Level 140 Ballista will require 95 Energy per shot since the channeling cost increases with damage.

Using the same set up against an Elite Lancer however cost all 850 energy within 5 seconds...

 

NEVER EVER EVER CHANNEL WHILE BLOCKING.

 

I completely agree. I also noticed that the damage increased the cost, but at times it was hard to tell. this is one reason I so desperately want to see the actual numbers on Channel-Blocking.

[ZurekMorraff]

10 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

I honestly think that they should just throw out the over-broad categories and give different weapons different blocking numbers unique to that weapon.

For instance lets look at the "Gunblades".
Does it make sense that the Sarpa can block as much damage as the Redeemer?

Or does it make that a single sword can block as much damage as two swords?

I think they should fine-tune the numbers to the weapons as it also allows them to make weapons a bit more side-gradey to each other.
After all, without the broad categories you can have the choice of "Do I want this weapon that is faster?  Or do I want this weapon that can block a bit more damage..." within the same category (look again at the gunblades for where I'm drawing that specific scenario).  Or it could even be "Do I want this weapon with longer reach?  Or better blocking?"

I do agree that there should be a set of rules to follow for what weapon blocks what percentage of damage, but I think it can be made a lot more granular than it is for more options to balance around.

This isn't a bad idea. I like to think that this would benefit the games melee functionality, allowing someone to make those choices and work from there, but I also think that keeping the spectrum of percentages to a minimum, without going to low, is also a good thing. At the very most, I'd see having each category with it's own percentage, but not every weapon.

 

Mainly, I'd just like to see it refined. My biggest issues are with the inconstancy between the logic of "Bigger = Better". I think fists should be with sparing, and claws. Nunchaku could be higher, there should be a difference between single and dual variants, and such on. That's why I made this tread, in hopes to find a good balance, and get a feel for how others think about this.

[ZurekMorraff]

10 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

As to your Channel+Block section:
Besides the official numbers/maths on how energy cost is calculated I would also like it for channeling efficiency mods to affect that cost as well.  Kind of weird that they don't do it already....

 

I also completely agree with this. It makes so much sense to allow this, but without the official numbers, its difficult to actually talk about it.

[ZurekMorraff]

8 hours ago, -TP-BrazilianJoe said:

I would ditch it for a Blocking 2.0:

1. Blocking would reduce damage in a 180 hemisphere in front of the player.

2. MR plays a part, each MR increases 1% blocking damage mitigation.

3. The weapon hitbox would block 100%. anything around it would mitigate but let some damage pass through.

4. Maximum damage mitigation is 60% + MR% at the closest vicinity to the weapon hitbox but outside it.

5. Minimum damage mitigation is MR%. 

6. The falloff to reduce from 60% + MR% to just MR% is where the weapon classification counts, with some weapons having more falloff, and others less. Sword + Shield should be the best weapon bar none. 

This isn't a bad idea. I kind of like this actually.

Maybe not a full 180, but close to it.

Maybe not 100% on hit box, but something like 85%, and having that gradually fall off to the outside of the aforementioned blocking radius, and to a minimum of the MR.

I really like the idea though.

[hukurokuju5]

different channel block skills would be cool.  changing the energy costs would need to take place first though.

certain weapon types could

- reflect fire directed at reticle for very short periods 

- a more defensive version would be able to block with way less energy cost 

 

the vaykor sydon has an interesting normal block effect.  those kinds of block effects could flavor certain weapon types well. 

dagger blocking has progressive  movespeed and evasion buff?

scythe blocking builds up attackspeed/status for a duration?

___ blocks # of hits and has 5 sec insta cloak like an arcane

__ # energy restore per kill/hit/

 

Honestly, these triggers don't even have to be "ON BLOCK"

- offensive weapons could trigger on #attacks,# of crits, #of procs, finishers, slams, air attacks, charge attacks (please)

- defensive weapons could have  triggers on block, channelblock, defensive charge attack?

 

 

 

[ZurekMorraff]

5 hours ago, hukurokuju5 said:

different channel block skills would be cool.  changing the energy costs would need to take place first though.

certain weapon types could

- reflect fire directed at reticle for very short periods 

- a more defensive version would be able to block with way less energy cost 

 

the vaykor sydon has an interesting normal block effect.  those kinds of block effects could flavor certain weapon types well. 

dagger blocking has progressive  movespeed and evasion buff?

scythe blocking builds up attackspeed/status for a duration?

___ blocks # of hits and has 5 sec insta cloak like an arcane

__ # energy restore per kill/hit/

 

Honestly, these triggers don't even have to be "ON BLOCK"

- offensive weapons could trigger on #attacks,# of crits, #of procs, finishers, slams, air attacks, charge attacks (please)

- defensive weapons could have  triggers on block, channelblock, defensive charge attack?

 

 

 

 

I liked the Idea that weapons could have special affects based on blocking, like the Vaykor Sydon, and the soon to be, hopefully, as was discussed in the DevStream, Silva & Aegis, and Ack and Brunt.

I think a minor change, that would make the world of difference, especially for the Vaykor Sydon, was if the hits blocked weren't per block "session" but lingered around for a small, maybe only 2-3 seconds, window, instead of simply disappearing as they do now if you haven't reached the 15-bullet cap.

Also, is it just me, or is it bugged where normal melee hits blocked don't count, and it's only bullets? I think this was just an oversight, but none the less, it exists.

[Azamagon]

I think this thread had some of the best ideas for a blocking revamp:

A super-TLD;DR of that thread (just the most crucial parts):
* All melee weapons can block with 100% DR for a short duration (this is known as "Break"-duration), you can refresh this duration with channelbllocking, and when it is over, you use the current DR numbers (which could need an improvement as well. 35% DR is pointlessly low).
* Blocking attacks = Fuel combo counter (Requires to have Break)
* Block next to enemies = Bash to open them for finishing moves (Requires to have Break)
* Channeling costs energy over time, rather than energy per hit/block
* Channelblock damage reflection's damage scales with our channeling bonuses, combo multiplier, and possibly damage mods

Add to that:
Vaykor Sydon's block mechanic could need some changing so you TRULY want to block often. I was thinking something like this:
* You still get 1 charge per attack on you. Max is now just 6 charges though.
* Letting go of block does the blind AoE at any number of charges (except 0 charges, of course).
* Blind AoE is now 4 meters + 1 meter per charge. That means, a minimum of 5 meters and a max of 10 meters. Range can be increased further by Reach mods.
* Blind duration is now 4 seconds + 1 second per charge. That means, a minimum of 5 seconds and a max of 10 seconds. Duration can further be lengethed by Status Duration mods.

[Insizer]

There should be two blocking stats: One for bullets/projectiles etc, the other for melee.

Everything but sword and board should have no more than 66% blocking vs projectiles. Sword and board should have the best blocking of all melee types, in both categories.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Make it work like blocking in God Eater.

[BaronessBlacksilk]

Other games have done blocking mechanics that I am rather fond of. Neverwinter has a Guard break meter and Overwatch just has an hp shield on Reinhardt. Something similar could work here with different weapons having vastly different values while at the same time disconnecting it from your Energy pool. Tweak a system like that around to balance it out and I think we could have a pretty solid thing on our hands.

[freeformline]

My main problem with blocking is that is virtually impossible to do it reactively. Attacks come too fast to be able to interrupt what you are doing and block them. Perhaps a blocking update would include some stat individualized to the weapon that allows for animation cancelling or increased block speed?

[Kalvorax]

1 minute ago, freeformline said:

My main problem with blocking is that is virtually impossible to do it reactively. Attacks come too fast to be able to interrupt what you are doing and block them. Perhaps a blocking update would include some stat individualized to the weapon that allows for animation cancelling or increased block speed?

and where would you fit a mod that would adjust that stat? A) we dont have the capacity even with forma B) we dont have the mod slots.

[freeformline]

2 minutes ago, xcynderx said:

and where would you fit a mod that would adjust that stat? A) we dont have the capacity even with forma B) we dont have the mod slots.

It probably wouldn't make much sense to have mods specifically for it. It might just be an innate property of the weapon or a stat tied to your choice of stance mod.

[Arkvold]

Just give me a button to quick-block, just like there's a button to quick-melee.  I'll use it to beat Ancient and Scorpion grappling hooks, and maybe use it to intercept Bombard rockets so I don't take as much damage and don't get knocked down.

That's all blocking really needs for me, really.