Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

It seems like developers are painfully unaware of the fact that difficulty must be accompanied by proper and worthwhile incentive in order for people to actually step up to the plate and do it frequently.

They're aware. They're trying to avoid:

1 minute ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

getting more prime parts out of a single key, thus getting more platinum or ducats per key

Because all that will do is make prime meta endless missions all over again. The new proposed system is efficient, not directly better.

It needs tweaks, but the 1:1 system is fine and most of the endless missions will be yielding appropriate relics at the same time as you are spending them.

[chofranc]

Well, since you will receive more void traces if you keep going, that is a good incentive to continue.

[Valthryn]

3 hours ago, Chipputer said:

They're aware. They're trying to avoid:

Because all that will do is make prime meta endless missions all over again. The new proposed system is efficient, not directly better.

It needs tweaks, but the 1:1 system is fine and most of the endless missions will be yielding appropriate relics at the same time as you are spending them.

Most people who play this game don't have hundreds of relics sitting around in their inventory. If you have to spend more time farming relics in boring missions to get to the actually fun parts of the game, then what has the update done other than make the game more boring? Difficulty and incentive were tied together perfectly in the old void system. That's why it became the meta, and that's why nothing has replaced it in the absence of endgame void. Because there is nothing else that ties together difficulty and consistently valuable rewards. Fix the void and you bring back endgame, otherwise you'll have to craft another meta. Efficiency is fine, but this is a game, not a minimum wage job. I want to enjoy the experience, not just the result. Because if there is no experience, ultimately there is no reason to bother with the result because the result is intended to make the experience more fun, but the experience itself is still boring. In other words, who cares about getting a Galatine Prime when there's no legitimate reason to use it?

Edited October 31, 2016 by Daggerpaw1

[Valthryn]

3 hours ago, chofranc said:

Well, since you will receive more void traces if you keep going, that is a good incentive to continue.

It's not enough to justify going to lengths that make the game actually difficult since void traces aren't nearly as useful as what you use them to get, and we have a fixed cap on them.

[Chipputer]

Just now, Daggerpaw1 said:

Most people who play this game don't have hundreds of relics sitting around in their inventory.

You don't have hard statistics so don't throw phrases out like this. The majority of the people talking about endless, on these forums, have hundreds of relics just from key conversions alone. Moot point because it's all conjecture, on your end.

1 minute ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

If you have to spend more time farming relics in boring missions to get to the actually fun parts of the game

What do you know, you don't have to do that. There's the option to just... oh, I don't know... run the mission?

1 minute ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Difficulty and incentive are tied together perfectly in the void system. That's why it became the meta, and that's why nothing has replaced it in the absence of endgame void.

If you consider getting a meta team together to cheese your way through hours of endless missions, "difficulty," then sure. It became the meta because it was easy to get numerous rewards, not because it was challenging. People who want challenge still go out and seek it. People who want rewards cry about not having it on the forums.

[YoutuBeggar]

Sorry in advance, i don't know where to put this topic.  Please move this to the appropriate place

I feel the whole adding every relic each time 5min/wave is not a good replacement for endless, where one key equals a lot of rewards.

How about a system where you combine 3 relics transmuted into an old void key where these void key works how it originally one key to get endless rewards.  Combining the different relics creates rewards of common uncommon and rare into this void key.  Out of the three if you combine lith(t1) meso(t2) neo(t3) or axi(t4) they each have 33.33% chance of being t1, t2, t3, or t4, but if you want a specific tower key sacrifice 3 of the same tier.  If they're of the same relics as lith(t1) c1, fill them with endo and orokin cells  encouraging to use different relics.  Make the void keys T1-T4 or maybe higher 33.33% chance defence, 33.33% survival, and 33.33% interception.  

Why 3 relics?

Rotations of A, A, B, and C and relic packs from syndicates are 3 relics

I feel this idea augments the new idea, where you keep the relic system, but gives us endless but at a cost.

[ZodiacShinryu]

3 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Difficulty and incentive are tied together perfectly in the void system.

They are? When?

Maybe it was difficult for you. But from my prospective there was little difficulty and basically no incentive ever. Most frames can handle a few rotations into endless solo. Add in some "cheesy" tactics and its becomes just a joke. I have gone 3hrs into survival t4 solo without much difficulty and I cant imagine the bore it would've been if I had people with me. My only incentive was for a single prime part. If I got that part at 20min I wouldn't have been in there for 3hrs.

I still run into long endless missions solo to test out builds as benchmarks, that hasn't stopped with any changes. The test is the incentive, the difficulty (possibly), and the fun. While I feel somewhat for people with ducats but its not like Baro shows up so often with so much stuff that you need to buy. I have never farmed for ducats directly and I've had enough just from new prime farms every 4months.

[Azyrt]

I'm a bit concerned about this too =S specially cause I never memorize the relevant keys by name thus always spending a few time clicking one by one until I can find which one I want by the icons... in old days always played using the void rewards table ^^

Maybe the squad could select before jumping into the mission which keys we want to use at each rotation thus always popping the screen if we run out of a previously selected relic mainly cause while in Defenses and Interceptions this is fine, this screen pop during a Survival will be really annoying as it kinda breaks the whole action and concentration...

[PR1D3]

Just a basic query. How is the new system going to affect void traces? Logically would we get more in the new system the more relics we open or are we going to get the same amount as if the trace drop is tied to mission completion?

[GinKenshin]

I think we'll get the same amount. I think what DE meant in the dvestream by "you'll be getting more traces" is that you'll get more chances at traces. like currently, if you do a DEF, you'll get 6-30. with the new system, if you stay for 10 waves, you'll get 12-60....you won't actually get more >.> 

at least that's how I understood it. it needs to be live for us to see 

[Gnude]

Every 5 Waves will refresh your reactant count, so make sure you pick them up! The number of Traces rewarded will increase the longer you stay in-mission as well.

from https://warframe.com/news/devstream-82-overview

[JalakBali]

Here is my 2-cents for making endless missions "worth it":

Make that you can refuse cracking the relic reward if you continue, thus enabling you to roll again the next rotation (of the same era). Why would this be a reward? Well, if you have a limited number of certain relics, this means you could try multiple times to get the reward you wanted but by only spending a single relic. To limit the abuse of this system, if you lost the match or if you extracted before the rotation comes, you have to take the latest reward.

 

OK, let's set up an example. We have Lith, Meso, Neo and Axi. An endless Defense would have the rotation of AABC. A lower level mission would put Lith at A, Meso at B and Neo at C, A higher rank mission would put Meso, Neo and Axi at A, B and C respectively.

 

Now you start a high level defense. You picked a junk Meso D1. Got to 5, cracked it open, got an Orthos Prime Blade. You now could pick another Meso, or you could click the button of Orthos Prime Blade in the list of rewards so far, and that relic/reward would get re-used. But you didn't want anything from a D1 and only farming it for ducats. So you picked an N2 Meso.  At wave 10, cracked that one too and got a fang Prime Handle. Now you picked an N2 Neo, and at 15 got vasto Prime Barrel. Now you pick a G1 Axi, Radiant, looking for Galatine Prime blueprint. At wave 20, you got a Forma. Dammit! It was my only G1 too! But hold on! Just keep on fighting. At wave 35, you could click that reward you got from before, the Forma, and have that re-used for this rotation again. At 40, you got Galatine Prime Blueprint. You picked that and extracted from the mission. You get all the rewards thus far, minus the Forma you got at 20 since that had been rerolled into a Galatine Prime BP. If you failed the mission at, say wave 37, then you don't get the reroll and got awarded the Forma instead.

 

So, this way, endless missions could be used to re-roll relics more than once, as long as you can keep fighting.

[LAWD]

3 hours ago, Azyrt said:

Maybe the squad could select before jumping into the mission which keys we want to use at each rotation thus always popping the screen if we run out of a previously selected relic mainly cause while in Defenses and Interceptions this is fine, this screen pop during a Survival will be really annoying as it kinda breaks the whole action and concentration...

Exactly the system that should go in, and I can imagine been shot down as I choose my relic.

[Angrados]

I have to wonder if that is because you're continually opening new relics... That would be my guess as to how and why you'd get traces, since they aren't affected by loot boosting mods of any kind.

[Chewarette]

It is clear that the Dev82 proposal won't fix much, as it is still one relic - one reward, there is no point in running 40 Defense waves for 8 relics instead of 8 Captures with the same probability of looting what you want (but 2 minutes per mission instead of 1 hour).

One relic for 4 rotations why not. Rotation A would grant you only the possibility of Common loots. B Common + Uncommon loots. C Uncommon + Rare. Something like that.

[Trittium00]

39 minutes ago, Angrados said:

since they aren't affected by loot boosting mods of any kind.

Actually, this is not correct. The number of traces you collect is in fact affected by the resource booster (the one that gives you double resources, not the one that gives you double the chance).

I regularly do my trace farming after I get a double resource booster when logging in and often get 50-60 traces in a single mission.

[Chrif1992]

I think the relic's are really good as I am not spending all my time in the void. It is annoying that they removed the ability to select farm like what they had with the keys. Some missions only had a cap, ext and survival key. Keys were easy to get but still time consuming and rewards were overwhelming. Now that rewards are not overwhelming they also removed the ability for selective farming. I spend 2 hours trying to get a specific relic and no luck.

The new system is much better but what am I going to do with my overly large amount of lilith s1 relics when I am aiming to get a different lilith relic or a meso relic.

Old drop tables http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Void_Keys

New drop table http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Void_Relic

The ability to select axi relics is gone (equivalent to old T4 keys) even some of the neo relics can't be selectively farmed. I doubt the relics have the same drop chance since the same ones drop repeatedly for me, mostly the older relics.

But as for the endless some more insentive would be needed to get me to go 40 minutes versing lvl 100 enemies like the sorties do

Edited October 31, 2016 by Chrif1992

[Nameless]

On 30-10-2016 at 6:28 AM, GreaseMan852 said:

This is one of the better ideas I've seen, but how would it work for radiant runs or clanmates grouping up to make it easier to get the latest piece of prime gear?  Maybe one relic should last AABC like you said but then if you stay past that and do another AABC (with the same relic) you get double chances for your rare to drop.  As in, we've stayed in for two AABC's and I didn't get the piece of gear from C that I wanted so I'll use my free reroll before we leave the mission.

I think the re roll would be a bit too good besides you wont have time to re roll in the 10 seconds you have to choose since youd rush to re roll and choose the part you want, especially if everyone re rolls.... the double chance could work but the x% would need to have a cap on it and personally i would rather have a steady increasing chance scaling with how long you stay so you want to stay longer instead of sighing all the time because the x2 doesnt increase or decrease, not giving you any reward or bonus the further you go.

I would say if you only use radiants your chance for the rare would be increased with your X minutes on the match like this(default chance for a radiant is 10%):

5 minutes/waves:
-rare drop - 10%*1.05 
-uncommon - x%*1.005
-common: x%*1.005
10 minutes/waves:
-rare drop - 10%*1.10
-uncommon - x%*1.010
-common: x%*1.010
and so on... but with a cap on the chance multiplier on 2 or perhaps 2.5 to prevent a 50/100% chance on the rare since it has to stay rare... but still give rewards

the formulas would be for rares(you will need to have different formulas for the upgrades but this is just an example of a rad relic):
-rare - x%*(1+minutes/100) = chance
-common/uncommon - x%*(1+minutes/1000) = chance

OR

radiants could simply use the same formula above this, but then for traces enhancing the chances giving you more traces... so you can get over 30 traces per relic without booster or kavat. This could also help you regain your traces from your radiated relics if you use boosters. with a cap on a x2 mulitplier for the minutes.

so that would look like without booster:
5 mins /w rad: traces * (1+minutes/100)
20 mins /w rad: traces*(1+20/100)

so that would look like with booster:
5 mins /w rad: traces * (1+minutes/100)*2
20 mins /w rad: traces*(1+20/100)*2

so that would look like with  booster & kavat buff:
5 mins /w rad: traces * (1+minutes/100)*4
20 mins /w rad: traces*(1+20/100)*4

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nameless816
formatting

[Nameless]

remove this post accidently double posted

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nameless816

[Tizodd]

16 hours ago, NekroArts said:

16 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Because we never had people bail on their turn to share their key in the past, or anything.

That is so untrue, there was always someone that would bail and someone would complain in the forums about it.

Might wanna lookup sarcasm :)

[Nazrethim]

10 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

It won't bring back endgame. It would be easier to just extract and bring another relic to the same fissure, and you'd be spending the same amount of relics either way, so there's no legitimate incentive to do anything hard.

Lvl inflation and cheese aren't endgame. Actual mechanical difficulty that demands skill instead of specific equipment would be endgame. Traces will aparently ramp up as you go, which means doing long runs would yield more traces than doing individual runs.

10 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

So, here's my personal solution:

In endless fissure missions (Survival/Defense/Interception) -

Rotation A1 (5 minutes/5 waves/1st round) provides 100% of the relic's chance to yield the rarest item

Rotation A2 (10 minutes/10 waves/2nd round) cuts the chance of yielding the rarest item down by 25% from its original value and distributes the product of that cut percentage equally between the other possible items

Rotation B (15 minutes/15 waves/3rd round) cuts the chance of yielding the rarest item down by 50% from its original value and does the same

Rotation C (20 minutes/20 waves/4th round) cuts the chance of yielding the rarest item down by 75% from its original value and does the same

The process repeats, with Defense and Interception missions offering a chance to swap relics, every time the rotation order resets.

Here's my proposal to buff EVERY endless, not just stupid Prime farming. Also, I keep Prime Farming exactly the same as DE intends: 1 Reward per Relic at regular chance.

Each rotation completed (20 waves/minutes or 4 Interceptions/Excavations) adds another instance of reward. Example:

Rotation 1: A (5k credits) A (100 Endo) B (1 Meso Relic) C (1 Neo Relic)

Rotation 2: A (10k credits) A (200 Endo) B (2 Meso Relic) C (2 Neo Relic)

Rotation 3: A (15k credits) A (300 Endo) B (3 Meso Relic) C (3 Neo relic)

3 separate 20min runs = 15k credits, 300 Endo, 3 Meso, 3 Neo

A single 60min run = 30k credits, 600 Endo, 6 Meso, 6 Neo

There, a buff across all endless without actually touching Prime part acquisition.

10 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

The whole point of endless void was that you were getting more prime parts out of a single key, thus getting more platinum or ducats per key.

Yeah, that's gone forever, and for good.

10 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Allowing the option to continue endless fissure missions by using different relics is a start, but it won't bring back endgame because it doesn't provide a worthwhile incentive to keep going.

If you like Endless, then you should suggest a buff to all endless, not just stupid prime farming fissures. Also, not endgame. Endgame would be if at the 20min mark you face all six acolytes or the Index team show up, you know, an enemy that can't be cheesed.

10 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Plus, in that scenario, you'd still be spending much more time farming relics than actually using them, which means more time spent in boring snooze-fest missions, which is what the whole game is now, essentially.

Because staying on the same spot, staring at the same golden halls for HOURS on end, every day, every time something new was added, was exilarating Fun, right? oh wait, no, it was a cruel grind and when you got your stuff it was not a sense of joy for a reward earned trough hard work, it was a sense of relief it was finally over because you were bored to death there.

10 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

It seems like developers are painfully unaware of the fact that difficulty must be accompanied by proper and worthwhile incentive in order for people to actually step up to the plate and do it frequently. Warframe is desperately lacking in difficulty and incentive.

There is difficulty actually. The Index offers a great challenge and Conclave in general is bonkers in chaotic skill-reliant Fun and ripe with non-gamechanging rewards.

10 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Difficulty still exists (the Mot node in the Void is harder than the old T4 survival) but few people actually do it because there is no real reward that's worth your time. Everything that gives you a decent or worthwhile reward in Warframe right now is so mind numbingly boring that I barely even play anymore. Why do I need good gear if everything in the game that is still remotely rewarding consists of enemies that can be 1 shot with relatively mediocre weapons? That's not a good position to be in for a game that's based solely around getting new gear.

Depends what you mean by "worthwhile reward". If it's gear, yeah, you can grind or grind harder. If it's fashionframe, you have Conclave offering awesome sigils, a syadanna and skins, and the mode is closer to endgame than what endless lvl inflation will ever be, though the Index has proven to be almost as equally demanding as conclave depending on enemies.

[Nameless]

I think the main complain from veterans is that warframe lost its challenge. Before fissures we would go on hours of survival pushing your equipment to the limit and get tons and tons of prime loot and good primes. Now with fissures you can take an unmodded unranked frame with unranked weapons and clear it. The fissures killed the fun in having a challenge staying as long as you can and pushing yourself to go further and further. Now i know you can do endless without prime parts.. but that just  isnt the same you get 5k credit caches as reward while you have 50 million already and thats just... not worth it. I did a few 2 and 3 hour runs on void mot but that was simply to get back the feeling of having a challenge and even at the end i was still like.... something was missing because i feel like i wasted my time because i got no decent rewards for it. also made a suggestion on a possible system they can implement... but look for that on my profile activities if your interested in that.

TL;DR
- challenge gone, old fun gone
- why forma a weapon 5 times if it needs 0 most of the time to clear all enemies in the fissure missions
- rewards on endless are S#&$ because you already have millions of credits and sometimes you get a relic but rarely

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nameless816

[Ailissa]

I've been around for 2 years and I prefer this system by far.

 

It was the old endless grind that killed all the fun and caused me to leave for about a year. When you realise you are doing something purely for the reward and not because you are enjoying it and have to put music/TV on to stop yourself from logging off due to boredom, you know it's time to leave.

 

That's what the old endless system did to me. I just wasn't enjoying myself any more. I was running an hour to 2 hours in missions just to get a chance at one item over and over again but I wasn't having fun. Nothing about it was enjoyable. 

 

If the endless grind ends up being the be all and end all of rewards again then that will probably kill this game for good for me. Sounds over dramatic I know but I play for fun and if i'm not enjoying what I do to get those rewards then there is no point playing.  

[Nameless]

3 hours ago, Ailissa said:

I've been around for 2 years and I prefer this system by far.

 

It was the old endless grind that killed all the fun and caused me to leave for about a year. When you realise you are doing something purely for the reward and not because you are enjoying it and have to put music/TV on to stop yourself from logging off due to boredom, you know it's time to leave.

 

That's what the old endless system did to me. I just wasn't enjoying myself any more. I was running an hour to 2 hours in missions just to get a chance at one item over and over again but I wasn't having fun. Nothing about it was enjoyable. 

 

If the endless grind ends up being the be all and end all of rewards again then that will probably kill this game for good for me. Sounds over dramatic I know but I play for fun and if i'm not enjoying what I do to get those rewards then there is no point playing.  

everyone enjoys the game different. I enjoyed endless a lot because it was challenging and rewarding. While in my opinion short spammy runs arent fun to me because its just piss easy and most people dont even need to focus to do it, while with endless you had strats(not the boring sewer camping) but like combining abilities etc, having certain roles and without it your team would die

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nameless816

[Angrados]

6 hours ago, Trittium00 said:

Actually, this is not correct. The number of traces you collect is in fact affected by the resource booster (the one that gives you double resources, not the one that gives you double the chance).

I regularly do my trace farming after I get a double resource booster when logging in and often get 50-60 traces in a single mission.

Resource Booster=/=Loot Boosting Mod. I'm talking about things like Desecrate, or Pilfdroid. However, I can see in my response where that was unclear, and you have my apologies. It's good to know that resource boosters do affect the drop rate of traces.