Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[GX339-4]

8 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

All of that still doesn't answer why she has the same gaping armor and gilded attachments in the same places that Alad V experimented on Gersemi.

And going "that's history repeating itself" is the laziest cop-out possible.

...And also doesn't score a lot of points for people who wanted her tail and winglets back, specially considering DE_Steve mentioned they thought about the Gersemi Prime skin, but decided against it.

*Sad*

[arch111]

Just saw Mohamu talk about and demo Valkyr Prime on Youtube. And I have to say that its barely visible that it is a Prime.

I have seen regular Valkyr with the orokin colorscheme,  and the two are really close. There is nothing that sticks out at me, and I get the feeling more and more that the concept was not achieved.

Or they really,  really like this and wanted to just add to valkyr. In that case, yes you did that.

The spine is covered with a sort of flower, or wing. It ends in a golden spike where the tail is on Gersemi. 

As stated all of valkyrs carred places and wires and tubing is replaced with golden equivalent.

What stand out the most is that the body don't glow with energy,  and that the claws seem the same as before. 

Compare this to say, Ash Prime, and the difference was huge. So I guess I am not really feeling this.

[folklore504]

13 hours ago, arch111 said:

Just saw Mohamu talk about and demo Valkyr Prime on Youtube. And I have to say that its barely visible that it is a Prime.

I have seen regular Valkyr with the orokin colorscheme,  and the two are really close. There is nothing that sticks out at me, and I get the feeling more and more that the concept was not achieved.

Or they really,  really like this and wanted to just add to valkyr. In that case, yes you did that.

The spine is covered with a sort of flower, or wing. It ends in a golden spike where the tail is on Gersemi. 

As stated all of valkyrs carred places and wires and tubing is replaced with golden equivalent.

What stand out the most is that the body don't glow with energy,  and that the claws seem the same as before. 

Compare this to say, Ash Prime, and the difference was huge. So I guess I am not really feeling this.

It really does seem like valkyr prime was rushed to release way before it was ready for implementation. 

[(PSN)OnyxCrimsonBlur]

On 11/18/2016 at 1:06 PM, Drufo said:

Maybe the Corpus, during their experiments, tried to re-create the Prime version and this would explain the "implants" and the bonds, since those are missing for the Gersemi. Consider that Gersemi is just a replica of the Prime, so it's not identical: just as Nekros doesn't have the wing-thing as his Prime, she doesn't have the implants and bonds of her.

Thematically, she is a cat-inspired berserk warframe. The Corpus left her "scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing", but they didn't change her abilities, only her character

This actually has merit in the fact that the Prime is the original and it can be said that all Warframes are primes. Maybe the gauntlets, or bonds, are what channel the energy claws in the original design and also, as Drufo said, the corpus changed her character, not her abilities. This would make sense from a continuity standpoint and also from a lore standpoint. As we know each Warframe has a base and a prime. The only difference, really, besides the gold embellishments on a prime is that a prime is made of all Orokin tech and a base is not. Also since the Corpus are from Orokin decent maybe they had some old blueprints around in bits and pieces and he tried to recreate her with what little knowledge he had on the subject while using the Gersemi model. It's not the first time another faction has tried to combine and modify Orokin tech. I mean, look at the Seer Pistol that Vor carries around. Obviously a combination of Orokin and Grineer tech. Just some food for thought. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

19 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

All of that still doesn't answer why she has the same gaping armor and gilded attachments in the same places that Alad V experimented on Gersemi.

And going "that's history repeating itself" is the laziest cop-out possible.

...And also doesn't score a lot of points for people who wanted her tail and winglets back, specially considering DE_Steve mentioned they thought about the Gersemi Prime skin, but decided against it.

The entire body and limbs are geresmi.  The only things ripped directly from the base valkyr model that the prime has is the armlets and "implants"  The helmet has a mix of the bastet helmet and it's own thing.  It's baffeling how many people don't see the geresmi in the prime.  Also i'd say you are seeing what you want to see on that comment.

Steve saying they decided a geresmi prime skin doesn't mean the prime isn't influenced by the geresmi skin.  Or that this prime version is closer to the base valkyr skin.  At best it means that they had a different art design look on the prime.  and then changed it.

[Yrveth]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The only things ripped directly from the base valkyr model that the prime has is the armlets and "implants"

The Prime mirrors Valkyr bolt for bolt. The only resemblance to Gersemi is the armour plating that covers her breasts and runs down to her knees, which itself is a design element she inherited from Valkyr, and perhaps the tail stub. If anything is baffling, it's that any people at all see Gersemi in that prime. 

[arch111]

Gersemi and Valkyr are similar, yes, but the body they based thr Prime on is not Gersemi.

Is. Not.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

6 hours ago, arch111 said:

Gersemi and Valkyr are similar, yes, but the body they based thr Prime on is not Gersemi.

Is. Not.

actually if you overlap gersemi, and prime bodies they have a lot of similarities, variance in shoulder design, claws, feet , but very close main body shape  

and if you look the tail on gersemi looks to be a later add on 

[Stoner]

Well well well.... Looks like no Devstream this friday. 

No news on this for the next 3 weeks.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Stoner74

[arch111]

2 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

actually if you overlap gersemi, and prime bodies they have a lot of similarities, variance in shoulder design, claws, feet , but very close main body shape  

and if you look the tail on gersemi looks to be a later add on 

Untill I have a proper shot side by side it feels like Valkyr with Gersemi add-ons, but still based on that model and not Gersemi.

Are there any good ones?

I know the two share common points; the knees, shoulders, abdomen and back all have these points in all three models.

They just look so alike. I for example saw the immortal skin on the prime and that looked allmost exactly like base Valkyr.

But maby if Gersemi was primed it would use the same designprinciples, maby more organic and sleek.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

I don't see what all the fuss is about tbh. The other delux skins show that warframes weren't standardised, there were variants. Alad could have added features to his captive variant to try and make it more prime like. The corpus must have visual records from the Orokin era, Alad trying to sculpt his subject into a prime is quite possible.

[arch111]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

I don't see what all the fuss is about tbh. The other delux skins show that warframes weren't standardised, there were variants. Alad could have added features to his captive variant to try and make it more prime like. The corpus must have visual records from the Orokin era, Alad trying to sculpt his subject into a prime is quite possible.

The fuss is that Valkyrs style was explained via the first deluxe skin. It is still unique that way.

What happens to people playing Warframe and trying to put tohether a Timeline of events and allso to make sense of the many slivers of story we have over 3 years, is that when something do not fit or break part of that collected Lore - they sort of loses it.

A similar break happened when the reveal came that the Grineer released the Infestation that they had rediscovered after doing crazy experiments with it. Untill that point we thought we were fighting something old that had been around for a long time.

Many believed Valkyr had looked very different before Alad. Now it seems not alot were changed after all. Zanuka was made from Gersemi.  Alad caught a Prime and ripped it apart.

I had hope it would not be like that. But *shrug* 

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

8 hours ago, arch111 said:

The fuss is that Valkyrs style was explained via the first deluxe skin. It is still unique that way.

What happens to people playing Warframe and trying to put tohether a Timeline of events and allso to make sense of the many slivers of story we have over 3 years, is that when something do not fit or break part of that collected Lore - they sort of loses it.

A similar break happened when the reveal came that the Grineer released the Infestation that they had rediscovered after doing crazy experiments with it. Untill that point we thought we were fighting something old that had been around for a long time.

Many believed Valkyr had looked very different before Alad. Now it seems not alot were changed after all. Zanuka was made from Gersemi.  Alad caught a Prime and ripped it apart.

I had hope it would not be like that. But *shrug* 

Firstly, Alad trying to sculpt/remake his captive, whatever Valk variant that may have been, to look more like a prime variant doesn't break anything as far as I can see, apart from a lot of head canon?

As for lore hounds, if they want to be warframe historians they should  act like proper historians and realise that not all accounts are accurate, sometimes further information comes to light that throughs doubt on previous understandings. Most of the characters we meet in game are shown to be deceitful and lie through their teeth and real life shows that one persons versions of events can vary far from another's. If you want to try and piece together the universes history you have to keep an open mind and assume whoever is relating the info is at best an unreliable narrator.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

20 hours ago, Belgard said:

The Prime mirrors Valkyr bolt for bolt. The only resemblance to Gersemi is the armour plating that covers her breasts and runs down to her knees, which itself is a design element she inherited from Valkyr, and perhaps the tail stub. If anything is baffling, it's that any people at all see Gersemi in that prime. 

Clearly you arne't looking.  Her hands and feet are directly pulled from geresmi.  same with the whole mid section.  and you saying it's just "inherited" is nonsense to justify your view.  It really doesn't matter anyway.  the whole prime features aspects from most of valkyr's cosmetic options.  People just wanted her to look a different way.  Which is fine. I just don't get the fuss.

[Yrveth]

1 hour ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

As for lore hounds, if they want to be warframe historians they should  act like proper historians and realise that not all accounts are accurate, sometimes further information comes to light that throughs doubt on previous understandings. Most of the characters we meet in game are shown to be deceitful and lie through their teeth and real life shows that one persons versions of events can vary far from another's. If you want to try and piece together the universes history you have to keep an open mind and assume whoever is relating the info is at best an unreliable narrator.

The problem with this is, there must be reliable information somewhere in that mix as well, otherwise all text is discredited and no matter how much of it is released, it is as good as none at all. The information in the codex is framed as facts (at least where it's not excerpts of personal accounts). If we can't trust that, then what?

Similarly, with Valkyr Prime being practically identical to Valkyr, it is not merely the headcanons that get broken, but the credibility of the text. Valkyr's tiny lore blurbs put her being in the context of cruel experimentation. It's a small leap from that to headcanoning her looks and powers both to result from something Alad did. It's easy to pin the error on those who made the assumptions, yes, but what was the alternative?

Now if we are to assume that Valkyr was an attempt to restore Valkyr Prime from Gersemi, that's evidently a traumatic enough process, even if it had no real repercussions on the warframe (in the sense of Vor's "glass shaping your furious light"). That fits with the codex well enough, if a bit clumsily. But at this point in time, it too is merely a headcanon, an attempt to sensibly put together all the information we have. The same thing we've always been doing. And why? It's not like we have any actual further information, right now.

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Her hands and feet are directly pulled from geresmi.

Please. Prime's hands have the same shape, even the same claw shape as Valkyr, and the same feet with small black heels, not the heavier curved paw of Gersemi. Neither does she have Gersemi's claws on her feet, she just has a pair of spikes attached over the shoe toes.

[THeMooN85]

Not gonna read all of this topic, but I gotta say... Valkyr Prime looks like a COW! Yes, a cow, not like a pissed kitty cat, but like a calm cow,

I thought that maybe if I'll color her "correctly", she would looks better, but no... I even changed her helmet to see if she would look less cow'ie, and yes, but still she looks bad.

Those claws on her feet, looks rather funny, and her hands... what is this SH** anyway? Helmet? OMG A COW. Her back (upper)? Is that some kind of flower or broken glass pieces?

As far as I love Valkyr (Prime), I hate her design (Prime), so much that I'll stick to Gersemi skin, where she looks sexy, dangerous, and adorable in the same time.

/sry for my eng.

[arch111]

Took some time to really compare these three. I know tastes vary, this aside if you compare closely, the Prime is more an extension of Valkyr with hints at Gersemi.

Let me clarify. I first loved the Prime seing it as a new design not really looking too much like either. Then I realised that Gersemi became a ? Mark and that led me to question the design of this prime.

I don't hate it, far from it. Just, as a Lorist, this bothers me.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

2 hours ago, Belgard said:

The problem with this is, there must be reliable information somewhere in that mix as well, otherwise all text is discredited and no matter how much of it is released, it is as good as none at all. The information in the codex is framed as facts (at least where it's not excerpts of personal accounts). If we can't trust that, then what?

Similarly, with Valkyr Prime being practically identical to Valkyr, it is not merely the headcanons that get broken, but the credibility of the text. Valkyr's tiny lore blurbs put her being in the context of cruel experimentation. It's a small leap from that to headcanoning her looks and powers both to result from something Alad did. It's easy to pin the error on those who made the assumptions, yes, but what was the alternative?

Now if we are to assume that Valkyr was an attempt to restore Valkyr Prime from Gersemi, that's evidently a traumatic enough process, even if it had no real repercussions on the warframe (in the sense of Vor's "glass shaping your furious light"). That fits with the codex well enough, if a bit clumsily. But at this point in time, it too is merely a headcanon, an attempt to sensibly put together all the information we have. The same thing we've always been doing. And why? It's not like we have any actual further information, right now.

Please. Prime's hands have the same shape, even the same claw shape as Valkyr, and the same feet with small black heels, not the heavier curved paw of Gersemi. Neither does she have Gersemi's claws on her feet, she just has a pair of spikes attached over the shoe toes.

The problem is the whole thing is a work in progress, the gameplay and the lore. It's pretty obvious DE don't have a bible, just vague ideas that fluctuate as they go along. Basically we are looking at a draft script, or scripts. They are changng bits but not yet going back to make sure it all ties together. Perhaps once (if) the game is ever finished they can make it cohesive but they seem to making this stuff up by the seat of their pants and plot holes and contradictions are going to happen with this wrting approach.

Thats why I would suggest you apply the unreliable narrator perspective to even the codex entries if you want to treat this as "real", as opposed to the work in progress it is.

Slight digression but as a Dr. Who fan, applying the unreliable narrator to the various producers/writers is the only thing that has kept me sane through the years.

[Yrveth]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

The problem is the whole thing is a work in progress, the gameplay and the lore. It's pretty obvious DE don't have a bible, just vague ideas that fluctuate as they go along. Basically we are looking at a draft script, or scripts. They are changng bits but not yet going back to make sure it all ties together. Perhaps once (if) the game is ever finished they can make it cohesive but they seem to making this stuff up by the seat of their pants and plot holes and contradictions are going to happen with this wrting approach.

Thats why I would suggest you apply the unreliable narrator perspective to even the codex entries if you want to treat this as "real", as opposed to the work in progress it is.

That's all very reasonable, it's just that I still have hopes that they won't go the way of making it cohesive by changing already published texts. That would make some things quite pointless, starting with any dedication to the game's lore in the present, and the fun of speculation we can enjoy now :)

Having said that, I may have to subscribe to your sanity-preserving school of reading codex entries very soon, depending on how the Ballas Trailer goes.

[arch111]

3 hours ago, Belgard said:

That's all very reasonable, it's just that I still have hopes that they won't go the way of making it cohesive by changing already published texts. That would make some things quite pointless, starting with any dedication to the game's lore in the present, and the fun of speculation we can enjoy now :)

Having said that, I may have to subscribe to your sanity-preserving school of reading codex entries very soon, depending on how the Ballas Trailer goes.

I hope they remove nothing, but uppdate and add more to bridge the gaps.

And Ballas ... I have this theory that he was on a mission of destruction as payment for a broken heart.

There are clues present. If he, again, speak of the Seven in unfriendly tones, I will be even more convinced. 

[Yrveth]

Just now, arch111 said:

And Ballas ... I have this theory that he was on a mission of destruction as payment for a broken heart.

There are clues present. If he, again, speak of the Seven in unfriendly tones, I will be even more convinced. 

What? Why do people crave redemption for him? The man was a monster. He had no heart to be broken.

I thought the worst that trailer can be is inconsistent. I now realize it could be a lot worse than just that. 

[arch111]

17 minutes ago, Belgard said:

What? Why do people crave redemption for him? The man was a monster. He had no heart to be broken.

I thought the worst that trailer can be is inconsistent. I now realize it could be a lot worse than just that. 

"Margulis, my wilted love. You must renounce before the seven."

"Margulis ... why?"

Who manipulated the Seven into sending the Starfish-terraformers?

Who was in charge of the Warframes after Margulis died?

Who placed Ordis in the ship with the simple instruction to protect and love the Operator? 

Who had the means to bring about the end of an empire from the inside?

Broken hearts is a classic motif in stories, even among the otherwise cruel and heartless monsters and gods.

I am not saying Ballas was not a monster. I am saying he may have been a monster with a conscience.

Could be completely wrong, and Ballas really is a onedimensional villain.

[NightmareT12]

30 minutes ago, arch111 said:

"Margulis, my wilted love. You must renounce before the seven."

"Margulis ... why?"

Who manipulated the Seven into sending the Starfish-terraformers?

Who was in charge of the Warframes after Margulis died?

Who placed Ordis in the ship with the simple instruction to protect and love the Operator? 

Who had the means to bring about the end of an empire from the inside?

Broken hearts is a classic motif in stories, even among the otherwise cruel and heartless monsters and gods.

I am not saying Ballas was not a monster. I am saying he may have been a monster with a conscience.

Could be completely wrong, and Ballas really is a onedimensional villain.

Ballas was Orokin. And Orokin were all monsters thanks to their so believed status of virtual godhood.

[Yrveth]

47 minutes ago, arch111 said:

"Margulis, my wilted love. You must renounce before the seven."

"Margulis ... why?"

Who manipulated the Seven into sending the Starfish-terraformers?

Who was in charge of the Warframes after Margulis died?

Who placed Ordis in the ship with the simple instruction to protect and love the Operator? 

Who had the means to bring about the end of an empire from the inside?

Broken hearts is a classic motif in stories, even among the otherwise cruel and heartless monsters and gods.

I am not saying Ballas was not a monster. I am saying he may have been a monster with a conscience.

Could be completely wrong, and Ballas really is a onedimensional villain.

Ballas was one of the Seven. He himself sentenced Margulis to death. Urging her to denounce the Tenno children only to take over her work and weaponize it reeks of the same hypocrisy as his manipulation of the Sentient project. How could either of these hint at a hidden heart of gold? How could his treatment of Ordan? The only thing Ballas knew about conscience was the dictionary definition of the word, if that. 

[arch111]

8 minutes ago, Belgard said:

Ballas was one of the Seven. He himself sentenced Margulis to death. Urging her to denounce the Tenno children only to take over her work and weaponize it reeks of the same hypocrisy as his manipulation of the Sentient project. How could either of these hint at a hidden heart of gold? How could his treatment of Ordan? The only thing Ballas knew about conscience was the dictionary definition of the word, if that. 

I used to say that too. It was after Titania that I began to think that there might be more to the story.

The Orokin were gods among men, yes. Cruel, selfish and old.

I asked myself,  why did Ballas manipulate the others into sending the living machine, a thing forbidden by their own 7 laws?

Why did he even care enough about Margulis,  an Archimedian and not true Orokin like him, to try and save her life?

Is it not strange how he pleaded with Margulis, watched her die, and immediately after that he sent the would be sentients to Tau? Is it not stranger still to keep talking to her after she is dead? If he really was cold and cruel and selfish, is this not a contradiction?

I won't derail this further, maby this is just me wanting npcs that arent all so black/white and allso to let us face Orokin again.

We can at least agree he was bad, as were all Orokin.